• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Woman who was sacked for saying biological sex is real wins appeal

Status
Not open for further replies.

FunkMiller

Member
Aug 14, 2014
6,586
22,048
890
With the obvious caveat that this should not get political...

...I thought it was important to point out this legal case in the UK, where a woman called Maya Forstater was appealing the sacking from her job, just because she tweeted that biological sex is real, and cannot be changed.

Today, she won the appeal, in a victory for scientific reason and common sense (and indeed, freedom of speech). It's an important step in protecting and reinforcing scientific reality in our society.

The judgement is also of benefit to trans people, as it points out very strongly that anyone with gender critical beliefs cannot harass or discriminate against trans people because of these beliefs.

Seriously good bit of great British legal common sense all round :messenger_clapping:

 
Last edited:

llien

Member
Feb 1, 2017
10,334
8,293
945
I wonder what "this does NOT mean those with gender critical beliefs can 'misgender' trans persons with impunity" actually means.

It comes down to what constitutes a "harassment" I guess.
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
11,959
20,240
755
With the obvious caveat that this should not get political...

...I thought it was important to point out this legal case in the UK, where a woman called Maya Forstater was appealing the sacking from her job, just because she tweeted that biological sex is real, and cannot be changed.

Today, she won the appeal, in a victory for scientific reason and common sense (and indeed, freedom of speech). It's an important step in protecting and reinforcing scientific reality in our society.

The judgement is also of benefit to trans people, as it points out very strongly that anyone with gender critical beliefs cannot harass or discriminate against trans people because of these beliefs.

Seriously good bit of great British legal common sense all round :messenger_clapping:

So people with gender critical beliefs can’t say what they recognize is true.

I don’t see how that is good at all.
 

Pilgrimzero

Member
Jun 23, 2014
5,669
113
640
Semantic drivel. She lost her job purely because she tweeted that biological sex is real, and that it cannot be changed on a whim. This is a fact.

It is also a fact that trans people should not be discriminated against because they are trans.

I guess? One implies she couldn’t go to her job the next day and the day after that and the day after that etc etc. The other is she still still had her job for awhile (and possible still did as per this article posting).

I used to be a contract employee and that contract was renewed in years worth of time. Typically 2 years per renewal.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2018
19,165
26,772
820
This whole issue that happened is good and bad, and it can really be solved with one action.

The root cause is social media giving people a way to tell the world what they think. I'm all for people saying what they want, but there comes a time you got to zip it esp for issues that ruffle feathers.

I'm not religious. But it would be pretty stupid for me to create a Twitter account and grill religious people saying its a waste of time to do Sunday church while I sleep in and watch NFL football at 1 pm. Sometimes you just got to let people be who they are and not do a 180 in their face to piss them off.

I have no problem with employers snooping around. This is no different than them asking questions to feel you out in interviews but got to have some leeway.

People have to also understand this whole trans/gender thing is a new modern issue heavily skewed to social media. Most people have zero association with it and given social media, they can just wing it with opinions. You cant fault people with giving their view. If my old ass parents were asked about his/they/biological sex classification etc.... they'd be old school. So can you really grill a couple 80 year olds for speaking their mind? For them they are retired for decades so they have no job on the line, but if they were working can you really fire people speaking their mind and who can barely use a PC? Doesnt seem like people/employers are giving people a chance for different views.

Solution: Use your head. If the tweet is a potential boat rocker, then shut up. Why anyone would publicly go on twitter to say anything dumb (whether it's eating a bagel for breakfast or political views) thats on you. Got to live with consequences.
 
Last edited:

Jon Neu

..he neus nothing
Jan 21, 2018
4,342
9,148
755
Republic of Catalonia

You don't need to, she literally won a trial for that reason.


This whole issue that happened is good and bad, and it can really be solved with one action.

The root cause is social media giving people a way to tell the world what they think. I'm all for people saying what they want, but there comes a time you got to zip it esp for issues that ruffle feathers.

I'm not religious. But it would be pretty stupid for me to create a Twitter account and grill religious people saying its a waste of time to do Sunday church while I sleep in and watch NFL football at 1 pm. Sometimes you just got to let people be who they are and not do a 180 in their face to piss them off.

I have no problem with employers snooping around. This is no different than them asking questions to feel you out in interviews but got to have some leeway.

People have to also understand this whole trans/gender thing is a new modern issue heavily skewed to social media. Most people have zero association with it and given social media, they can just wing it with opinions. You cant fault people with giving their view. If my old ass parents were asked about his/they/biological sex classification etc.... they'd be old school. So can you really grill a couple 80 year olds for speaking their mind? For them they are retired for decades so they have no job on the line, but if they were working can you really fire people speaking their mind and who can barely use a PC? Doesnt seem like people/employers are giving people a chance for different views.

Solution: Use your head. If the tweet is a potential boat rocker, then shut up. Why anyone would publicly go on twitter to say anything dumb (whether it's eating a bagel for breakfast or political views) thats on you. Got to live with consequences.

What a sad society we live in if the solution to the crybullies and their cancel culture is to shut up and not dare to speak your (factual) opinion.
 
Oct 26, 2018
19,165
26,772
820
You don't need to, she literally won a trial for that reason.




What a sad society we live in if the solution to the crybullies and their cancel culture is to shut up and not dare to speak your (factual) opinion.
It sucks.

In a perfect world, people can say what they want and people wont go ape shit canceling people or firing people, but it's the world we live in at this point. Which is pins and needles if someone notices a controversial tweet.

Given that, better to watch what is said.

Who knows. Maybe 10 years from now, people will be chill.
 

evolvaer

Neo Member
Dec 30, 2019
44
65
155
Chicago
It sucks.

In a perfect world, people can say what they want and people wont go ape shit canceling people or firing people, but it's the world we live in at this point. Which is pins and needles if someone notices a controversial tweet.

Given that, better to watch what is said.

Who knows. Maybe 10 years from now, people will be chill.

It's not just at this point that we are living in a world where people go ape shit if you speak against the main stream. You can go back ages past when scientists were executed for questioning the catholic church, or 20 years ago when people were questioning the US invasion of IRAQ with vague notions of Weapons of mass destruction. Anyone who questioned it was labeled as hating america...

The other side just caught on to the mud fight.
 

Bragr

Member
Jun 24, 2020
1,002
1,818
445
It sucks.

In a perfect world, people can say what they want and people wont go ape shit canceling people or firing people, but it's the world we live in at this point. Which is pins and needles if someone notices a controversial tweet.

Given that, better to watch what is said.

Who knows. Maybe 10 years from now, people will be chill.
Well, I get your logic, but when it's this absurdly insane, maybe we should rock the boat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: StreetsofBeige

poppabk

Member
Jan 21, 2008
12,624
1,594
1,350
USA
I think it's pretty sad that scientific facts are now considered "beliefs".
It's strange because the fundamental underpinning of being trans is that sex and gender are separate. 'Trans' itself means 'opposite' ie your gender is the opposite of your sex.
Side note: I once caught a ban here for saying there were only two sexes.
 
Last edited:

tkscz

Member
Oct 17, 2011
9,714
1,926
975
Treating science as a matter of opinion or a "point of view" is a deeply worrying development over the last few years.
No kidding, but the people who say that tend to be people who believe evidence is a bad thing, so while worrying, not suprising.
 

Outlier

Member
Nov 9, 2020
385
505
320
Catering to peoples beliefs in fantastical viewpoints of reality is a path to personal and societal damnation.

This is why separate communities exist.

It's just so interesting how the majority of people are socially driven, so that even if they know it's wrong they will join the wrong team, so that they won't be ousted.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: kruis
Oct 26, 2018
19,165
26,772
820
Catering to peoples beliefs in fantastical viewpoints of reality is a path to personal and societal damnation.

This is why separate communities exist.

It's just so interesting how the majority of people are socially driven, so that even if they know it's wrong they will join the wrong team, so that they won't be ousted.
Thats because the majority of them are total losers. And like drunks, druggies and panhandlers, they seem to stick together.

People in a good state of mind or quality of life have other things to worry about like making money investing, taking kids to soccer practice, paying their mortgage, getting home from work and chilling. There's more important things in life than making a Twitter or Instagram account telling the world whats going on in that numbnut brain looking for acceptance and sub count.

Dont get me wrong. I have social media too. Linkedin for careers and connections, and FB for fam/friends. I do my share of chatting with recruiters for job prospects and posting boring pics of holidays or me at a BBQ on FB. But thats the extent of it.
 
Last edited:

underwater

Neo Member
May 29, 2021
13
24
95
I am sympathetic to anyone suffering from gender dysphoria.

However I am very suspicious of the wider transgender agenda, there is something very sinister afoot. There is an explosion in the numbers of young people claiming to have these issues. 4000% increase since 2006. Clearly something is causing it and there does not seem to be any effort to identify the cause and prevent future cases.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Loki and LRKD

Zeroing

Member
Sep 19, 2019
1,153
1,608
365
I am sympathetic to anyone suffering from gender dysphoria.

However I am very suspicious of the wider transgender agenda, there is something very sinister afoot. There is an explosion in the numbers of young people claiming to have these issues. 4000% increase since 2006. Clearly something is causing it and there does not seem to be any effort to identify the cause and prevent future cases.
As someone who had history of art there were also documented cases even in ancient civilizations. We just had a new religion who wanted to break it self from everything related to paganism. That meant a huge change in society’s perception on what was morally acceptable.
 

GeekyDad

Member
Apr 6, 2009
6,551
627
1,165
My home
www.gamespot.com
With the obvious caveat that this should not get political...

...I thought it was important to point out this legal case in the UK, where a woman called Maya Forstater was appealing the sacking from her job, just because she tweeted that biological sex is real, and cannot be changed. ...

Semantic drivel. She lost her job purely because she tweeted that biological sex is real, and that it cannot be changed on a whim. This is a fact.

It is also a fact that trans people should not be discriminated against because they are trans.
Jeff Goldblum What GIF by The Late Late Show with James Corden
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NewtScamander

JSoup

Member
Jun 20, 2013
4,312
2,426
870
California
I wonder what "this does NOT mean those with gender critical beliefs can 'misgender' trans persons with impunity" actually means.

It comes down to what constitutes a "harassment" I guess.

Intent matters.
"So X people do Y action because Z, or so I think/these statistics show/I feel."
vs.
"X people do that gross Y because Z, the fucking lazy [racial epitaph goes here]."

One is an opinion, the other is an opinion with a side of dick.
 
Mar 3, 2020
1,138
1,803
445
It's been great having the office to a few people. You can actually have conversations you can't have in an open plan. And one today was about this very issue.

In a few months, it will be back to whispering in corners in case the thought place get you.
 
Jan 21, 2019
3,656
4,380
460
While I'm accepting of others mental state, I too only see male and female. Scientifically, it's fact. Everything else is just make believe. People get fixated on ideas and in some cases, believe them to be true.
 

Termite

Member
Dec 9, 2020
197
286
230
Good ruling. Arguments like this are where I really started to get off the trans ideology train.

Them: "Sex and gender are different. Sex is biological, gender is mental, it's a social construct."
Me: "Okay, that makes sense. Sure."
Them: "What we call men and women are actually gender expressions. So someone with a penis can have the gender of a woman. And treating trans people as the gender they identify with is hugely beneficial for their mental health."
Me: "That's a big change for me to accept, but okay, I'll do it, especially to help people's mental health. So to be clear, you can have a woman who is born male, and is of the male 'sex'."
Them: "Well, no... that person was always a woman. Always. And their sex has changed, so their birth certificate should be changed to reflect this."
Me: "Wait... what? I thought sex and gender are different."
Them: "And furthermore anyone acknowledging that biological sex is real is transphoic and guilty of hate speech and should lose their job."
Me: "Wait... WHAT?!? You've lost me... like, entirely."
Them: "...Bigot."

We're at a point where I legitimately don't understand the arguments any more.

There's like a deep schism in the trans community between those who think having body dysphoria is essential to the condition and others who think it's all just a state of mind. It seems like not even their community knows or agrees what it is to be trans. Insanity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NewtScamander

NoviDon

Member
May 31, 2020
181
394
265
I am sympathetic to anyone suffering from gender dysphoria.

However I am very suspicious of the wider transgender agenda, there is something very sinister afoot. There is an explosion in the numbers of young people claiming to have these issues. 4000% increase since 2006. Clearly something is causing it and there does not seem to be any effort to identify the cause and prevent future cases.
probably the same stuff turning the frogs gay. maybe ask alex jones?
 
Dec 4, 2019
3,172
4,713
545
I am sympathetic to anyone suffering from gender dysphoria.

However I am very suspicious of the wider transgender agenda, there is something very sinister afoot. There is an explosion in the numbers of young people claiming to have these issues. 4000% increase since 2006. Clearly something is causing it and there does not seem to be any effort to identify the cause and prevent future cases.
 

Ionian

Member
Apr 25, 2013
2,191
2,689
745
I sacked your mom last night. That was some real biological sex

real good, that is. The sex was good I mean

Someone please post this to the cringe thread.

Thought it was a kid until I saw the join date.

Talk about a self-own. Doesn't get better than this for a face plant.
 
Last edited:

99Luffy

Slow in the head
Sep 10, 2016
1,933
254
450
I believe businesses should be able to fire at-will, so I'm against this. What ever she believes in, it isnt a protected class afaik.

"her views "may well be profoundly offensive and even distressing"
Not a good enough reason for an employer to fire someone I guess? The british are an odd people.

EDIT: Oh man she wasnt even fired, just didnt have any future contracts. Even more wacko.
 
Last edited:

bigsnack

Member
Sep 12, 2005
448
232
1,425
Los Angeles
Thats because the majority of them are total losers. And like drunks, druggies and panhandlers, they seem to stick together.

People in a good state of mind or quality of life have other things to worry about like making money investing, taking kids to soccer practice, paying their mortgage, getting home from work and chilling. There's more important things in life than making a Twitter or Instagram account telling the world whats going on in that numbnut brain looking for acceptance and sub count.

Dont get me wrong. I have social media too. Linkedin for careers and connections, and FB for fam/friends. I do my share of chatting with recruiters for job prospects and posting boring pics of holidays or me at a BBQ on FB. But thats the extent of it.

I think in general, you've summarized my feelings about it entirely. Social media is driven by the content and opinions of a select few, and their views are heavily biased in certain directions. I think it's a healthier personal decision to avoid playing in that sandbox if you know going in how things are skewed. Willingly projecting opinions that are obviously adversarial does nothing but create negativity, and can literally poison your own soul. Unplugging means that you aren't allowing the unchangeable biases of others ruin YOUR day. You could be outside in the sun, or having a laugh with your spouse / kids, instead of devoting energy to the soul suck of other people's opinions. Life is too short.

I think the same can be said for even contributing to social circles that are aligned with your own personal biases. The same principles apply IMO.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: StreetsofBeige

bigsnack

Member
Sep 12, 2005
448
232
1,425
Los Angeles
How long until saying that 2+2=4 becomes hate speech?
Again, I think the fear of this happening is simply because a very small minority control a very large minority of social media and it's content.

You've got a bunch of extremists controlling most of the content. The article above is about twitter, but I'm assuming that the same goes for nearly all social media across the board. The average person is shockingly normal and boring with their views on most of these subjects.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dural

Dr.Morris79

Member
Nov 19, 2018
2,086
3,196
440
Essex
I am sympathetic to anyone suffering from gender dysphoria.

However I am very suspicious of the wider transgender agenda, there is something very sinister afoot. There is an explosion in the numbers of young people claiming to have these issues. 4000% increase since 2006. Clearly something is causing it and there does not seem to be any effort to identify the cause and prevent future cases.
It's just a shitty re-run of the 80's, mostly a fad i'd say.

'Lets change our sex, it'll be rad, yeah, never been done before'

 
Oct 26, 2018
19,165
26,772
820
I think in general, you've summarized my feelings about it entirely. Social media is driven by the content and opinions of a select few, and their views are heavily biased in certain directions. I think it's a healthier personal decision to avoid playing in that sandbox if you know going in how things are skewed. Willingly projecting opinions that are obviously adversarial does nothing but create negativity, and can literally poison your own soul. Unplugging means that you aren't allowing the unchangeable biases of others ruin YOUR day. You could be outside in the sun, or having a laugh with your spouse / kids, instead of devoting energy to the soul suck of other people's opinions. Life is too short.

I think the same can be said for even contributing to social circles that are aligned with your own personal biases. The same principles apply IMO.
Totally.

Problem is for some people, the only way out of feeling like a moron all day is venting on Twitter. So they speak their minds not giving a shit. Theres a time to say stuff and a time to shut up. Who knows why someone would go on Twitter and say gender issue stuff but they do it.

I understand what others said above about free speech and not letting extreme people take over, but sometimes you got to lay low. And hopefully, loudmouths on social media lay low too. But most cant help it.

Its my free speech to go up to someone at a store and say they are ugly. 99% of the time nothing is going to happen except some bad looks. No cop is going to arrest me. But why cause an issue and say it? I dont even though it might be a fat ass beside me.

So how do we solve social media lovers ranting since they are too dumb and ingrained in social media to do something better in life?

Ignore them. Let their comments and sub count be zero and let them talk to themselves. Although if I was HR I would scour the net. I wouldnt want to hire weird people.

I dont even have a Twitter account. The only time I check some tweets is if GAF or some other sites talk about a topic and someone embeds some tweets. As a non-user I cant even search for topics.
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
Dec 16, 2020
900
1,434
445
You've got a bunch of extremists controlling most of the content. The article above is about twitter, but I'm assuming that the same goes for nearly all social media across the board. The average person is shockingly normal and boring with their views on most of these subjects.
It goes for almost everything - rule 80/20 e.g. 80 of your revenue comes from 20 percent of your clients.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bigsnack

bigsnack

Member
Sep 12, 2005
448
232
1,425
Los Angeles
Totally.

Problem is for some people, the only way out of feeling like a moron all day is venting on Twitter. So they speak their minds not giving a shit. Theres a time to say stuff and a time to shut up. Who knows why someone would go on Twitter and say gender issue stuff but they do it.

I understand what others said above about free speech and not letting extreme people take over, but sometimes you got to lay low. And hopefully, loudmouths on social media lay low too. But most cant help it.

Its my free speech to go up to someone at a store and say they are ugly. 99% of the time nothing is going to happen except some bad looks. No cop is going to arrest me.

So how do we solve social media lovers ranting since they are too dumb and ingrained in social media to do something better in life?

Ignore them. Let their comments and sub count be zero and let them talk to themselves. Although if I was HR I would scour the net. I wouldnt want to hire weird people.

I dont even have a Twitter account. The only time I check some tweets is if GAF or some other sites talk about a topic and someone embeds some tweets. As a non-user I cant even search for topics.
Well said and I’m in a similar boat, no Twitter, no Facebook, etc. I’m on here and and a few other forums that I check once a day or so (oftentimes less than that.)
 

El Pistolero

Member
May 21, 2020
502
777
295
Ree must be fulminating right now. Hoping for more upsetting things, as in: reality checks, to clean up that cesspool.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.