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[Boombloxer]

That's where this guy came in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä

Read about him before, badass in every way.

 

[dschalter]

Rule/dominate continental Europe, with Britain being the other major world power except one with a colonial empire was his initial dream.

in his second book he said that eventually germany+britain would face off against the usa... no idea how long he held that idea for though, as he was quite changeable when it came to certain aspects of his worldview (though completely and totally inflexible on others).

By the time the were in the island battles Japan had very limited resources.. meaning limited air and naval support.

Actually Japanese navy pilots were considered to be way more skilled than their American counterparts...





Japan lost pilots and had no skilled replacements.. and no resources to make too many new aircrafts..

well, not having enough pilots isn't really something i would attribute to limited "resources;" japan had plenty of the resources you need to make pilots (part of the reason their pilots were better was because they made being a pilot tougher). lack of planes certainly is though, although that again took some time to take effect.

 

[shadyspace]

Why didn't he want control over Britain? I've always pictured a Nazi victory splitting the world into thirds: A Japan controlled Asia and South Pacific, A Germany controlled Europe, and a US dominated N. and S. America.

 

[Blackace]

well, not having enough pilots isn't really something i would attribute to limited "resources;" japan had plenty of the resources you need to make pilots (part of the reason their pilots were better was because they made being a pilot tougher). lack of planes certainly is though, although that again took some time to take effect.

Men in WWII were a resource. Of course part of it is poor planning for a war and a lack of planes and boats took effect as soon as they were cut off from steel..

Why didn't he want control over Britain?

Hitler viewed Britain as Germany's Nordic cousins.. He had some sort of odd vision that they would fall in line as soon as they had the Jewish taint lifted from them..

 

[SteveWinwood]

I would always hear stories about my grandpa's older brother who was part of the resistance in occupied Norway. He'd always say that the nazis never really had control of the country and were more scared of the people than the people were of them. That every night you'd hear a couple people taking shots at some of the patrolling nazis and every once and a while just shooting them. The next night another would take his place, scared shitless. I'm sure it was romantizied but whatever.

Also my family is pretty thick skinned, we'll take just about any insult and be able to turn the other cheek and keep our cool. Unless it was calling someone a quisling. I never knew for years what it was but I knew it bothered the shit out of all my family members and now even me. Lots of words I've become completely desensitized to, but if someone called me that (luckily who on earth does that?) I'd probably go ape shit. I don't even know why.

 

[dschalter]

Men in WWII were a resource. Of course part of it is poor planning for a war and a lack of planes and boats took effect as soon as they were cut off from steel..



Hitler viewed Britain as Germany's Nordic cousins.. He had some sort of odd vision that they would fall in line as soon as they had the Jewish taint lifted from them..

men were certainly a resource, but when it came to needing pilots, japan's problem wasn't really that is population wasn't large enough.

to go back a bit to the original point i was responding to, it's important to realize that to a large extent japan fought impressively precisely because it had limited resources. in japan, the attitude was "we don't have much, if there is a war with the united states we will need to strike hard and fast." japan devoted a much larger % of its GDP to the military (and of course was already in a large war, which increased readiness), and had a population that was much readier to fight. if we live in a hypothetical world where resources are equal, we'd likely see far more in the way of preparation from the USA and perhaps not as much from japan.

 

[shadyspace]

I've always been tremendously fascinated by Japanese such as Chiune Sugihara who went to great lengths to protect Jews from their own ally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_Sugihara

Chiune Sugihara (杉原 千畝 Sugihara Chiune?, 1 January 1900 – 31 July 1986) was a Japanese diplomat who served as Vice-Consul for the Japanese Empire in Lithuania. During World War II, he helped several thousand Jews leave the country by issuing transit visas to Jewish refugees so that they could travel to Japan. Most of the Jews who escaped were refugees from German-occupied Poland or residents of Lithuania. Sugihara wrote travel visas that facilitated the escape of more than 6,000 Jewish refugees to Japanese territory, risking his career and his family's lives. Sugihara had told the refugees to call him "Sempo," the Chinese reading of the characters in his first name, discovering it was much easier for Western people to pronounce.[1] In 1985, Israel honored him as Righteous Among the Nations for his actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Japan#Jewish_settlement_in_Imperial_Japan

Some Japanese leaders, such as Captain Inuzuka Koreshige (犬塚 惟&#37325, Colonel Yasue Norihiro (安江 仙&#24344 and industrialist Aikawa Yoshisuke (鮎川 義&#20171, came to believe that Jewish economic and political power could be harnessed by Japan through controlled immigration, and that such a policy would also ensure favor from the United States through the influence of American Jewry. Although efforts were made to attract Jewish investment and immigrants, the plan was limited by the government's desire not to interfere with its alliance with Nazi Germany. Ultimately it was left up to the world Jewish community to fund the settlements and to supply settlers, and the plan failed to attract a significant long-term population or create the strategic benefits for Japan that had been expected by its originators.
On December 6, 1938, Five ministers council (Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe, Army Minister Seishirō Itagaki, Navy Minister Mitsumasa Yonai, Foreign Minister Hachirō Arita and Finance Minister Shigeaki Ikeda), which was the highest decision making council, made a decision of prohibiting the expulsion of the Jews in Japan.[2][3]
During World War II, Japan was regarded as a safe refuge from the Holocaust, despite being a part of the Axis and an ally of Germany. During World War II, Jews trying to escape German-occupied Poland could not pass the blockades near the Soviet Union and the Mediterranean Sea and were forced to go through the neutral country of Lithuania (which was occupied by belligerents in June 1940, starting with the Soviet Union, then Germany, and then the Soviet Union again).

Throughout the war, the Japanese government continually rejected requests from the German government to establish anti-Semitic policies. Towards the end, Nazi representatives pressured the Japanese army to devise a plan to exterminate Shanghai's Jewish population, and this pressure eventually became known to the Jewish community's leadership. However, the Japanese had no intention of further provoking the anger of the Allies, and thus delayed the German request for a time, eventually rejecting it entirely.

 

[endre]

As far as I heard, Hitler wanted to extend Germany till the eastern oil fields, and had some idea about three!? superpowers controlling Earth. He did not want to have it "all".

Also, from my grandmother, the people in my village feared the Russian liberating soldiers more then the Germans, because Russians were prone to raping and similar misbehavior. Under German rule, they had to accommodate some Italian tailors, who were German prisoner workers. When the Russians came they kicked them out from their rooms to sleep in the shad, while they occupied their beds, and ate everything. She even spoke of a neighbor who became a lover of some high ranking German soldier. That woman was overwhelmed with presents and such.

 

[War Peaceman]

I've always been tremendously fascinated by Japanese such as Chiune Sugihara who went to great lengths to protect Jews from their own ally.

Italy was good for this too. The Italian-zone of Vichy France was notorious as a safe haven for the Jews.

 

[g23]

What if Mussolini wasn't a retard?

 

[DeEJaYMiND]

I would like to contribute the greatest fighter plane ever created:

The P51D Mustang. The plane was a thing of beauty and openly represented the Allied powers of Great Britian and the United States. When the mustang was orginally introduced to the RAF, its pilots felt it was a great plane but underpowered. So after several modifications it evolved into the P51D. While the base plane was designed in the U.S. the engine was a British built Rolls Royce engine that was used in the Spitfire.

It finally gave the Allied powers a long range escort fighter for the Lancaster and B17 Flying Fortress bombing squads over Germany. Which prompted this awesome quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang

Sorry but no The Messerschmitt Me 262 was by far the best WWII fighter plane. Of course the numbers and the time it was introduced didn't affected much the course of the war but it was a great plane. Also the Me 262 influenced the designs of post-war aircraft.

 

[dschalter]

What if Mussolini wasn't a retard?

the problem was more italy than mussolini.

(see: how well italy fought in world war i)

 

[Para bailar La Bomba]

TRIVIA QUESTION: What was the first Allied victory of WW2 on land?

(only the weak use Google)

 

[dschalter]

TRIVIA QUESTION: What was the first Allied victory of WW2 on land?

(only the weak use Google)

uh, how broad is your definition? skirmish/battle/campaign/other levels?

e: i suppose my question could basically be rendered a moot point if the answer is narvik, because the comes before the other serious battles, but that seems a bit cheesy to me (part of a strategic defeat, amphibious).

 

[xbhaskarx]

When I saw this I figured this must be a really really old thread that had been bumped...
should I start working on the World War III OT

 

[Violet_0]

I've read an article about Felix Graf von Luckner yesterday, absolutely fascinating person, never heard of him before (admittedly he has more to do with WWI, but the story goes that near the end of WWII he single-handedly saved the city Halle from US bombardment).

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,818449,00.html

 

[SteveWD40]

Hitler viewed Britain as Germany's Nordic cousins.. He had some sort of odd vision that they would fall in line as soon as they had the Jewish taint lifted from them..

He also had very cosy relationships with both the UK fascist party and many members of the royal family / aristocracy (notably the heir to throne Edward). He assumed that if Edward took the throne Britain would leave him be and he could take Western Europe.

Many of the "ruling class" in England were experiencing the rise of the middle class and were not fans of ethnic diversity, they probably secretly liked a lot of what he stood for (purity of race etc...).

 

[dschalter]

He also had very cosy relationships with both the UK fascist party and many members of the royal family / aristocracy (notably the heir to throne Edward). He assumed that if Edward took the throne Britain would leave him be and he could take Western Europe.

Many of the "ruling class" in England were experiencing the rise of the middle class and were not fans of ethnic diversity, they probably secretly liked a lot of what he stood for (purity of race etc...).

cosy relationships with many is a bit of an exaggeration, though edward (who was even king briefly) was definitely a fan. and of course, as the quotes perhaps indicate, the "ruling class" had basically been vanquished and weren't in great position to win support for the nazis.

 

[Coppertracks]

Many of the "ruling class" in England were experiencing the rise of the middle class and were not fans of ethnic diversity, they probably secretly liked a lot of what he stood for (purity of race etc...).

Racism and anti-semitism were both very common and accepeted views pre-WWII amongst society (Churchill was fantastically racist when it came to Africa) although obviously not to the extent Hitler was.

Another must read. Gives a brilliant first hand account of the medical experiements that happend in the camps. Will also depress and disgust you so be prepared.

 

[SteveWD40]

cosy relationships with many is a bit of an exaggeration, though edward (who was even king briefly) was definitely a fan. and of course, as the quotes perhaps indicate, the "ruling class" had basically been vanquished and weren't in great position to win support for the nazis.

I was thinking more of guys like Mosely, oh and the then editor of the Daily Mail, who had influence, was writing love letters to Hitler.

But yes, the upper classes were certainly not able to do much to swing public opinion.

 

[Blackace]

He also had very cosy relationships with both the UK fascist party and many members of the royal family / aristocracy (notably the heir to throne Edward). He assumed that if Edward took the throne Britain would leave him be and he could take Western Europe.

Many of the "ruling class" in England were experiencing the rise of the middle class and were not fans of ethnic diversity, they probably secretly liked a lot of what he stood for (purity of race etc...).

The black shirts also had a little weight before WWII as well.

People have also stated that American Nazi sympathizers were another reason why America didnt enter the war sooner

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

As a general question directed at History or Politics GAF, what do you think the "limit" to German expansion could have been while surviving the war "in-tact"? For example, would there have been a way to restore Germany's pre-WWI borders (with the addition of an integrated Austria) and then "stopping", or would incursions into Eastern Europe to conquer former Prussian territory have been enough to guarantee large scale foreign intervention, which would then necessitate total war with France, UK and (eventually) USA+USSR?

 

[dschalter]

As a general question directed at History or Politics GAF, what do you think the "limit" to German expansion could have been while surviving the war "in-tact"? For example, would there have been a way to restore Germany's pre-WWI borders (with the addition of an integrated Austria) and then "stopping", or would incursions into Eastern Europe to conquer former Prussian territory have been enough to guarantee large scale foreign intervention, which would then necessitate total war with France, UK and (eventually) USA+USSR?

not sure if i'm reading your question right, but germany's prewar borders included alsace-lorraine which they were only going to obtain over france's cold dead body. if you only want to talk about eastern expansion, it's certainly possible to imagine a world where france and britain let hitler take poland, but once poland is taken germany has basically all its old eastern territory back and borders the soviet union.

 

[MIKEAL]

As a general question directed at History or Politics GAF, what do you think the "limit" to German expansion could have been while surviving the war "in-tact"? For example, would there have been a way to restore Germany's pre-WWI borders (with the addition of an integrated Austria) and then "stopping", or would incursions into Eastern Europe to conquer former Prussian territory have been enough to guarantee large scale foreign intervention, which would then necessitate total war with France, UK and (eventually) USA+USSR?

Are you referring to appeasing Hitler? Because as far as I'm aware he simply used borders as an excuse to invade western Europe without British/French intervention

 

[dschalter]

Are you referring to appeasing Hitler? Because as far as I'm aware he simply used borders as an excuse to invade western Europe without British/French intervention

basically, yes. his comments on the tirol are a nice example of this- he thought the goal of restoring germany to its old borders was unambitious to the point of being dangerous.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

not sure if i'm reading your question right, but germany's prewar borders included alsace-lorraine which they were only going to obtain over france's cold dead body. if you only want to talk about eastern expansion, it's certainly possible to imagine a world where france and britain let hitler take poland, but once poland is taken germany has basically all its old eastern territory back and borders the soviet union.

That's Elsass to you! And I did forget about that. That would certainly require full scale invasion of France to yield, although to someone admittedly not well versed in this sort of thing, it at least seems "possible" for them to attempt to broker a peace they steamrolled France involving the transfer of Elsass back into German hands, even if that is incredibly unambitious. I guess they would at minimum want the French government to take a bit more of a pro-Germany line too.

basically, yes. his comments on the tirol are a nice example of this- he thought the goal of restoring germany to its old borders was unambitious to the point of being dangerous.

Restoration of German borders was just one hypothetical endpoint. Could they achieve it, and could they have gone further?

 

[Alucrid]

This may sound crazy but does anybody think that it may have been not so bad if Hitler won the war? I mean if he did Communism never would have spread and would have killed a lot less than "80-100 million people".

Think about it:

- No Great Leap Forward starvations
- No Pol Pot
- etc.

wat

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

the problem was more italy than mussolini.

(see: how well italy fought in world war i)

 

[rabhw]

I don't think this is illegal in any way, if it is please tell me and I'll remove the link.

I was looking online for the "Hardcore History" podcast, and I found a website that has it. I think its a legit website that was hosting the episodes back when they were free:

http://castroller.com/Podcasts/DanCarlinsHardcore

Show 27-30. Might be worth adding to the OP for those that want to hear it. I listened to the first 15 minutes of episode 1 last night and I was enthralled to keep listening, but I had to sleep .__.

 

[ResidentDante]

Sorry but no The Messerschmitt Me 262 was by far the best WWII fighter plane. Of course the numbers and the time it was introduced didn't affected much the course of the war but it was a great plane. Also the Me 262 influenced the designs of post-war aircraft.

You sure about this? Didn't these models have a lot of faults and such being first-gen jet fighters?

 

[Kabouter]

You sure about this? Didn't these models have a lot of faults and such being first-gen jet fighters?

Given circumstances and limited numbers, it was actually quite successful.

 

[War Peaceman]

Are you referring to appeasing Hitler? Because as far as I'm aware he simply used borders as an excuse to invade western Europe without British/French intervention

Borders and national self-determination, basically anything he could do to avoid war. Up until the Munich agreement anyway. That Chamberlain managed to persuade Hitler to not go to war there is beyond me - it was quite the feat. Germany's economy was overheating (They'd chosen guns AND butter) and war was desired as a stimulus.

People need to stop criticising appeasement - Britain simply had no choice. It was politically unpopular to deny Germany 'its' land until Kristalnacht (although this is difficult to measure, there are opinion polls at the time indicating this). Britain was demilitarised (interestingly, Churchill authorised the earlier demilitarisation and Chamberlain authorised militarisation - funny, but not relevant I should add)and at the time of Munich, had only radar coverage of the Thames. Given how thin the RAF was by the peak of the Battle of Britain, that extra time was pivotal. Also, it allowed Britain's production to get going and usurp the German rate of growth. Oh yes and there was uncertainty over how likely the colonies (or was it dependent territories, I forget the technical term) were to join in - the ANZAC territories, to be specific.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

The thing about having its own atmosphere is written in Albert Speer's (the architect's) autobiography . I can't recall whether he also discussed the acoustic issue, but the Wikipedia article discusses both.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkshalle#Possible_architectural_problems

"Citation Needed". Never the less I'll accept it as some sort of support. I'll look more into it.

for trotsky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_One_Country this debate should explain it well enough- trotsky wanted to export communism to other countries as soon as possible. on domestic policy, much of what stalin was most criticized for was what lenin was doing from the beginning.

for stalin, stalin rose to where he did by aping lenin's positions whenever possible. the main difference was that lenin was in control during only the initial period.

To be fair wouldn't Trotsky most likely have failed with spreading Communism to other nations? Russia was in no shape to be fighting wars.

Rule/dominate continental Europe, with Britain being the other major world power except one with a colonial empire was his initial dream.

Oh shit nevermind for my other post. Duder would have ended up killing a hundred million during the course of his life. Could you imagine how powerful a winning Nazi Germany would be?

 

[yacobod]

Patton is an army?

My statement was poorly worded, I should have said that the Germans and the Soviets fielded the best ground armies of the war.

I was referring to generals or field commanders like Rokossovsky, Zhukov, Konev, Guderian, Rommel, von Manstein.

 

[bolbronx]

Watching the aforementioned Apocalypse-Documentary.

The Germans took Ukraine, were having a blast. The Ukrainians saw them as liberators, and most even sided with the Nazis. Mostly because of Stalins starvation-policies in the early 30's. The German soldiers and the Ukrainian people were getting along pretty well.

Along comes Göring:
"No unnecessary mouths to feed. Those who can work, will work for the reich. The rest will die. Those who work will give everything they have, until they themselves die."

 

[Blackace]

Goring was a monster... He reminds me of Dick Cheny

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

When I saw this I figured this must be a really really old thread that had been bumped...
should I start working on the World War III OT

lol, thanks for the laugh.

 

[commish]

I've lost count of the number of books I've read on WWII; it's an interest of mine, to say the least.

What always blows my mind is that, if Hitler hasn't turned into a moron, he had a good chance of succeeding.

 

[MrHicks]

I've lost count of the number of books I've read on WWII; it's an interest of mine, to say the least.

What always blows my mind is that, if Hitler hasn't turned into a moron, he had a good chance of succeeding.

hitler was always a moron
his elite posse of commanders were pretty much responsible for the military battle victories

many of those commanders thought a russian invasion was batshit insane but hitler wouldn't listen

 

[bengraven]

Fascinating topic! I was a history major at UW and have taken almost every class offered there on WW2. I also over the years have read almost anything I could get my hands on about Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. One of the classes that I took was about the history of the atomic bomb. The book, "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" is a must read for anyone really interested in a complete history of the bombs, the people involved politically and scientifically, and the the usage of said bombs on Japan and later.

A couple of interesting things about the bombings in Japan (from the book):

1. As early as 1943, those highest in the US had planned on dropping the bombs on Japan. Before they were developed, and as the war still raged on in Europe, the plan was to drop the bombs on Japan only. The book doesn't necessarily explain why, which is one reason why I like it, but it makes you wonder why it was ok to experiment on the Japanese but not the Nazis...

I think the biggest reason wasn't necessarily the racism in America toward Japanese (which was pretty harsh) but because of fallout. You drop the bomb on Japan and it's on an island. You drop a bomb on a European city and the fallout could hypothetically blow over to one of their allies.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

hitler was always a moron
his elite posse of commanders were pretty much responsible for the military battle victories

many of those commanders thought a russian invasion was batshit insane but hitler wouldn't listen

Yeah it was a mistake as long as Britian was in the fight. If Hitler would've went through with Sea Lion, I think Hitler would've been in a better position. He didn't though and the allies opened up three fronts on Hitler and Germany was doomed.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

The thing that always frightens me is that. The time period's horrible political experiments (Fascism and Communism) were fueled with political and economic unrest. Mostly due to the Great Depression (Fascism more than Communism in this case). The thing is that Capitalism will once again face an even bigger foe than the first market crash. Technology is becoming more and more advanced. Machines are becoming cheaper and cheaper to streamline. Because of this jobs will start disappearing. You are already seeing this with self-checkout lanes, smart vending machines, online retail (Amazon, Netflix, iTunes, Steam, ThePirateBay *yes it counts*), etc.

People usually use the argument that new technologies lead to more potential in new jobs but this isn't going to be the case for the future. There aren't going to be a surplus of jobs in manufacturing and designing these products compared to the jobs they will replace. Eventually we will have to abandon the economic system we have and Capitalism as we know it will have to be restructured. How its going to be restructured scares the shit out of me. People once again are going to be desperate and can very well be convinced in going down dangerous roads.

Will the hammer and sickle return?
Will Ayn Rand's libertariantopia finally take futation?
Will dictatorships rise again?

Scares the shit out of me. And this isn't even that far in the future. I predict this will happen anywhere 30 to 60 years from now.

hitler was always a moron
his elite posse of commanders were pretty much responsible for the military battle victories

many of those commanders thought a russian invasion was batshit insane but hitler wouldn't listen

How was he suppose to get the oil and resources to continue on with the war? Wasn't almost all of Germany's oil imported?

 

[shock33]

Yeah it was a mistake as long as Britian was in the fight. If Hitler would've went through with Sea Lion, I think Hitler would've been in a better position. He didn't though and the allies opened up three fronts on Hitler and Germany was doomed.

Although sealion as planned was doomed of course.

Interesting fact, the one exercise the germans did with 50 barges, they managed, in broad daylight, with no enemy and good weather and no defences, to get less than half their troops ashore within an hour of the first troops landing, and 10% didn't get ashore.

 

[Menelaus]

Sorry but no The Messerschmitt Me 262 was by far the best WWII fighter plane.

I'd be hard pressed to call a plane which in no way affected the outcome of the war the "best". It may have won the tale of the tape, but it contributed nothing to Germany's war machine.

 

[DeEJaYMiND]

You sure about this? Didn't these models have a lot of faults and such being first-gen jet fighters?

Not really. Or at least not more than traditional fighter planes. And you need to remember that late in the war, some materials supplies are no where to been seen in the German lines. And the ME 262 was, basically, a forth generation jet plane. Heinkel He 178 was the first jet to fly around 1939:

After the Luftwaffe ignore it in favor of more piston engine planes, in late 1940 Heinkel tried again and the new He 280 prototype made it's first flight:

But still the RLM (Reichsluftfahrtministerium aka Reich Aviation Ministry) as not impressed. There are some speculation that behind the scene politics had it's share on this. Others say the tech was too advance and mass production difficult. The truth is that after this, the prototype saw a few engines changes but the plane never reached the production lines.

In 1941 we saw the introduction of the Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet. The famous rocket-powered fighter:

Not many built and only around 1944 they start to see some action. They sucked and flying one of this was a pain. Special low-fiber diets were prepared for pilots, as gas in the gastrointestinal tract would expand rapidly during ascent. Not fun

In 1942 the first prototype of the Me 262 made it's first flight. It was introduced in the spring of 1944. Most of the pilots of the Me 163 went to the Me 262 squadrons.

Fun fact: Robert Lusser, the man behind the Heinkel He 178 and He 280 as also the man behind the Messerschmitt Bf 109. He left Messerschmitt in 1938 to work for Heinkel. After that he went to work for Fieseler and design the V-1 flying bomb. It was a design competing with Wernher von Braun' s "V2" vertical takeoff rocket.

Like many important German engineers, Lusser was brought to the United States after the end of World War II. There, he worked for the Navy, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and in 1953, re-joined von Braun's rocketry team.

 

[DeEJaYMiND]

I'd be hard pressed to call a plane which in no way affected the outcome of the war the "best". It may have won the tale of the tape, but it contributed nothing to Germany's war machine.

True! I agree 100% Still, if you can pass beyond that you have one amazing plane. If it enter sooner in the war i was probably speaking German by now

 

[MechDX]

True! I agree 100% Still, if you can pass beyond that you have one amazing plane. If it enter sooner in the war i was probably speaking German by now

And if the Germans didnt over engineer basically everything the war could have had a different outcome. The Tiger tanks while vastly superior to the Allies Sherman tanks the Shermans outnumbered them greatly. Repairing the Tigers was a major pain in the ass and they were expensive to produce.

I would put the Mustang over the ME262. The Mustang gave that final edge to the Allies for complete air dominance far out weighing what the 262 did.

 

[Proxy]

Yeah it was a mistake as long as Britian was in the fight. If Hitler would've went through with Sea Lion, I think Hitler would've been in a better position. He didn't though and the allies opened up three fronts on Hitler and Germany was doomed.

There was no way they could have been able to succeed if they didn't control the airspace around the channel (not to mention the threat of the Royal Navy). When they lost the Battle of Britain they lost their ability to invade. It also didn't help that they lacked sufficient landing craft to transport their troops.

The Germans had no specialised landing craft, and had to rely primarily on river barges to lift troops and supplies for the landing. This would have limited the quantity of artillery and tanks that could be transported and restricted operations to times of good weather. The barges were not designed for use in open sea and even in almost perfect conditions, they would have been slow and vulnerable to attack. There were also not enough barges to transport the first invasion wave nor the following waves with their equipment. The Germans would have needed to immediately capture a port, an unlikely circumstance considering the strength of the British coastal defences around the south-eastern harbours at that time.

Source

 

[Kabouter]

There was no way they could have been able to succeed if they didn't control the airspace around the channel (not to mention the threat of the Royal Navy). When they lost the Battle of Britain they lost their ability to invade. It also didn't help that they lacked sufficient landing craft to transport their troops.



Source

Also seems questionable to me that they could have protected any invasion fleet from the Royal Navy.

 

[shock33]

Also seems questionable to me that they could have protected any invasion fleet from the Royal Navy.

Indeed, the luftwaffe was expected to:

- Act as the artillery for the landing forces
- Keep the Royal Navy out of the channel*
- Win air superiority
- Carry out interdiction around the landing zones

Most of the barges could be sunk simply from the wash from a destroyer and they didn't even have enough personnel to crew them (estimated at 20,000 men!). The crossing was also planned to take place at night/dawn with the 1000+ landing craft co-ordinated by loudhailers.

As mentioned by someone else, none of the armed forces really worked together, they all competed with each other under Hitler, so none of them were even working to the same plan anyway!

*Their record during dunkirk was putting out of commission something like 4 out of 39 destroyers