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[synchronicity]

Would going to church and their events be easier places to meet people? End of last year my girlfriend went to prison, and the girl I got with after died in a car wreck running from the cops so i got clean its been a couple of months and I'm looking for anything something new. Its like real hard to meet people staying out of motels and that scene. I have been to church before but idk how to talk to people there. I think I'm depressed gaf I've even considered scientology cuz their YouTube video seemed so helpful

I kind of hope you're trolling. If not, that's some dark times. Sorry for your circumstances.

If you are genuine, I'd say looking to find truth in any organization is a road to nowhere. You may find comfort and relief in the form of social support, and that can be worth a great deal, and you may be comforted in having "answers" to the unknown, but you'll forever be looking if you rely upon others for direction and understanding of the fundamental nature of things. The winds forever blow in all directions with endless voices beckoning you to "the way".

 

[appaws]

Just be aware that being a Christian doesn't immediately get you into all the clubs with welcome arms. As you can see in this very thread, the seething hatred between Catholicism and Protestantism is alive and well, numerous sects love to shit on Mormonism, etc.; there's an almost endless chaos over even the most minor differences in interpretation of scripture.

It's perfectly reasonable to join to find some kind of social infrastructure, just be cognizant that some of your closest enemies will be your 'neighbors in faith'

I don’t see it as seething hatred. I married into a catholic family. Are we not here to spread the gospel as well? If I’m wrong, I need to be led to truth. If someone else is wrong, I need to lead that person to truth. I ask questions and explain my views wherever I can.

Seriously, I don't hate anyone. If I hated them I wouldn't care about saving their souls. I see them as brothers in Christ who are most of the way to the truth. Being indifferent to their error would be a great sin against them. We should discuss differences and try to persuade each other of the truth. In a spirit of love and friendship as much as possible, of course.

 

[mushy tailspin]

I kind of hope you're trolling. If not, that's some dark times. Sorry for your circumstances.

If you are genuine, I'd say looking to find truth in any organization is a road to nowhere. You may find comfort and relief in the form of social support, and that can be worth a great deal, and you may be comforted in having "answers" to the unknown, but you'll forever be looking if you rely upon others for direction and understanding of the fundamental nature of things. The winds forever blow in all directions with endless voices beckoning you to "the way".

Oh I sound like a troll? No. I just want to surround myself with people that aren't like me which has been my issue with 12steps friends. But I guess you're saying church's aren't the social hot spot I was hoping. I'm becoming reclusive

 

[synchronicity]

Oh I sound like a troll? No. I just want to surround myself with people that aren't like me which has been my issue with 12steps friends. But I guess you're saying church's aren't the social hot spot I was hoping. I'm becoming reclusive

Not necessarily. I meant that I hope you didn't actually have to go through the circumstances that you posted, that's all.

Churches can be good places to meet people, obviously. There are people there.

If you're becoming a recluse, better nip it in the bud before humans are too weird to deal with.

 

[Dubloon7]

Some of the moral code of Christianity pretty much align with what any decent human being believes in. Ex: Don't kill or steal

The only thing that I see that separates a Christian and a non-believer is the belief of Jesus Christ. However, besides that is there anything that I should be aware of?

If you are wondering why I am thinking of being a Christian is because I pretty much joined a Christian fellowship, which at first I just wanted to chill and network but I feel their influence rubbing on me.

what country do you live in? if in the US, then what area?

being religious in certain areas is seen as a status profitability as EVERYONE else thinks the same (e.g. sheeple). for your own high ground believe in whatever you want, but do not negate scientific facts to your personal opinions.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

what country do you live in? if in the US, then what area?

being religious in certain areas is seen as a status profitability as EVERYONE else thinks the same (e.g. sheeple). for your own high ground believe in whatever you want, but do not negate scientific facts to your personal opinions.

You mean the scientific “facts” that are constantly changing? Wouldn’t call that fact. Many scientific “facts” are terribly far from the truth. I’m beginning to understand that science was very much at odds with Christianity at one point as far as calling it the devils work. I’m starting to believe that that hasn’t changed much and it’s just been sugar coated/given a fresh coat of paint and no one notices because generations upon generations that would have opposed most of the BS that the scientific community tries to pass off as facts and truths have long died off, books have been burned and we’re born into what may as well be a giant amusement park.

 

[VAL0R]

Would going to church and their events be easier places to meet people? End of last year my girlfriend went to prison, and the girl I got with after died in a car wreck running from the cops so i got clean its been a couple of months and I'm looking for anything something new. Its like real hard to meet people staying out of motels and that scene. I have been to church before but idk how to talk to people there. I think I'm depressed gaf I've even considered scientology cuz their YouTube video seemed so helpful

Tailspin, I encourage you to attend a Catholic (the oldest and largest Christian group) service on Sunday morning and to humbly ask God in prayer something like, "God, if you exist and would have me be a Christian follower of Jesus, please supply me with all the graces and the faith that I need." Ask the priest or look in the bulletin for Bible studies or get-togethers to meet other Christians, who should happily accept you into their company. Maybe there is a free coffee and doughnut hour after mass or a young Catholic adult meeting on Thursdays, or whatever. You should be able to find friends there. More importantly, you'll find Jesus and peace there and lasting happiness and a powerful purpose and meaning for your life.

I suggest you start reading to New Testament in the bible to learn more about Jesus. You will not regret this if you do it.

 

[hammysaurusrex]

You mean the scientific “facts” that are constantly changing? Wouldn’t call that fact. Many scientific “facts” are terribly far from the truth. I’m beginning to understand that science was very much at odds with Christianity at one point as far as calling it the devils work. I’m starting to believe that that hasn’t changed much and it’s just been sugar coated/given a fresh coat of paint and no one notices because generations upon generations that would have opposed most of the BS that the scientific community tries to pass off as facts and truths have long died off, books have been burned and we’re born into what may as well be a giant amusement park.

Part of the philosophy of science is that it is reasonable to apply a rationale parsimony by forming a theory based on synthesizing the evidence that introduces the fewest assumptions. That's a feature, not a bug.

Again, it's hard to take this attitude seriously - and this very thread is evidence why. There are so many sects of Christianity with vastly different beliefs and interpretations of scripture. The idea that Christianity is immutable is demonstrably false, so it's questionable how sincere an argument that "science is bad because it changes" can possibly be with any level of intellectual honesty.

Also, just from a rhetorical perspective - you guys are trying to sell Christianity to the OP. I highly doubt bringing out out the "science is evil" bat is an effective persuasive tool. The people making the argument about the benefit of spiritual fulfillment are making a much, much better case.

edit: For the OP: Be cautious. You will find a lot of sincere people who want you to join a fellowship because they value your presence. You will also find people who demand you sacrifice your political or scientific convictions - you absolutely do not have to.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

If there is no error or falsehood in God, and some claim that men are given knowledge of earthly things by God, then those things change because they were incorrect in the first place, then they weren’t given to men by God in the first place. It’s man’s own imagination or even worse, the deceiver. Science doesn’t even understand how the human body functions fully yet they can tell you what minerals make up a so called planet “millions of miles away” without ever stepping foot on it. Nah. Hard pass on that.

 

[hammysaurusrex]

If there is no error or falsehood in God, and some claim that men are given knowledge of earthly things by God, then those things change because they were incorrect in the first place, then they weren’t given to men by God in the first place. It’s man’s own imagination or even worse, the deceiver. Science doesn’t even understand how the human body functions fully yet they can tell you what minerals make up a so called planet “millions of miles away” without ever stepping foot on it. Nah. Hard pass on that.

This is incoherent.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Evolution and the Bible are like oil and water. Is that better?

 

[Deleted member 713885]

I've really played with the idea of becoming religious..

But, I never intend on getting married again and I plan on living the rest of my life having lots of sex with my girlfriend.

 

[Paasei]

Religion is nonsense don't let it ruin your mind.

 

[Airola]

Would going to church and their events be easier places to meet people? End of last year my girlfriend went to prison, and the girl I got with after died in a car wreck running from the cops so i got clean its been a couple of months and I'm looking for anything something new. Its like real hard to meet people staying out of motels and that scene. I have been to church before but idk how to talk to people there. I think I'm depressed gaf I've even considered scientology cuz their YouTube video seemed so helpful

Wow, you've had it rough. I'm sorry for that.

We are all on our own small little boats. We row the boat. The boat is not in a good shape. It's leaking here and there. There could be ropes and weights and whatever else that can be put on the boat in all kinds of manner that makes it not easy to row the boat.

In the distance you see something. It's a way bigger boat. It's a cruise ship! It could be able to save you from this situation. However, in distress you might think it's just an illusion. Or you could start looking the other way and not lay your eyes on that ship at all anymore. Your own little boat is still leaking, so obviously something should be done about it. Now you have to have faith that the bigger ship exists, that it is not an illusion. And you have to have faith that the existence of that ship is what will save you. When you do that, you will naturally start to row your boat towards the ship. A wind might help you get a bit closer but you still have to row the boat. You row the boat by yourself but you wouldn't be doing that without the existence of that ship and without your faith in that ship. It would possibly help too that you fix a few of the leaking holes on your own boat and get rid of the other things on the boat that slows it down.

While the faith in the ship and the existence of that ship doesn't make you be completely trouble free, it will naturally give you strength to row the boat a bit harded a bit longer and it makes you naturally want to avoid creating more of those leaking holes and accepting more of those troubling ropes and weights that slow you down. You might get another leaking hole at some point or you might pick up some useless stuff that floats on the sea, but whenever you set your mind back on that ship, you will get a bit more strength and willpower to get closer to the ship and leave the things that slows you down.

At some points you could even feel you are as strong as that ship and you find yourself rowing the boat like you were the amazing cruise ship you see in the distance. Obviously you are not as strong but at some points you feel you are and that will get you forward again.

Now, you could say in this analogy the ship can be your own personal goal and just a wish for self improvement instead of it being God/Christ. That you don't have to believe in supernatural and metaphysical to use this kind of a mental play to get you to a better place in your life. However, I would say that making the ship be an established thing like God/Christ is much more effective than making it be your own personal place of mind because as we all know we as humans fall down very often and we change our minds over and over again. In 20 years you might not be even nearly the same person you are now so if that ship is based on who do you think you are and who do you think you should be, it will probably vanish at some point and move in a place where it's tougher to approach. With it being this established thing (God/Christ) that has been the same, is the same and will be the same, it will always be there in that same spot and it will always be approachable in the same way it always has been.

Letting the object of you faith to be God is already a good and helpful thing but letting it be Christ and choosing Christianity out of all the religions there are is even better because it's the only one that at its core lets you admit your shortcomings and lets you acknowledge the horrible potential you have had, still have, and forever will have to make your and other lives miserable - yet it still accepts you. Christianity is not a religion for people who are good and flawless. It's a religion for people who are broken and corrupt. In other words, it's the religion for all of us. It's the only one where saying "I have a serious problem" is the key to the whole thing - and I'm sure you have already said that several times in your life. And as you have done that already, the door is open so why not take a step and look inside.

If you take a literal step into a church, be aware of where you are and who are you with. There are people and places who are willing to use a broken person for their personal gain. You are under no obligation to stay in that church. You have every right to leave. If you feel you are being pressured to stay or they start talking about money a bit too much, there is a change that place is not for you. I would say you see a safe and genuine mindset of a believer in a person who is glad to be able to talk to you even for that one time. They wouldn't require or force you to talk to you day after day. They would probably be happy to do so, but they would be happy to offer their help and companionship even if it was just for one time. So maybe go and have a talk with a pastor in some church. You can talk about things online too but I think it's very helpful to be able to talk with a person by saying your things out loud. As you said it's not easy to find people outside of your old scene that wasn't good for you, but a pastor in a church will be there and will definitely talk with you. So if you feel there aren't people you can find, a pastor is at least one person you will be able to find and who most certainly doesn't belong to whatever scene you have been able to dig yourself out of and who is used to and willing to talk to any more or less broken person there is.

 

[synchronicity]

There are so many sects of Christianity with vastly different beliefs and interpretations of scripture. The idea that Christianity is immutable is demonstrably false, so it's questionable how sincere an argument that "science is bad because it changes" can possibly be with any level of intellectual honesty.

Absolutely. Science is at its essence simply observation and measurement (and eventually application). We learn new things, we amend previously accepted knowledge that turned out to be incomplete or erroneous. But that doesn't negate that (true) science is simply open, unbiased inquiry into the workings of things.

Of course there can be (and does exist) bias within segments of any community, scientific or otherwise.

I've always found it ironic that anti-science crowd willingly drives cars, goes to the dr, or watches television, etc. It's impossible to live in this modern world and reject science without being a hypocrite. (Not that science can answer all questions, of course.)

 

[Dubloon7]

You mean the scientific “facts” that are constantly changing? Wouldn’t call that fact. Many scientific “facts” are terribly far from the truth. I’m beginning to understand that science was very much at odds with Christianity at one point as far as calling it the devils work. I’m starting to believe that that hasn’t changed much and it’s just been sugar coated/given a fresh coat of paint and no one notices because generations upon generations that would have opposed most of the BS that the scientific community tries to pass off as facts and truths have long died off, books have been burned and we’re born into what may as well be a giant amusement park.

/SMH

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Absolutely. Science is at its essence simply observation and measurement (and eventually application). We learn new things, we amend previously accepted knowledge that turned out to be incomplete or erroneous. But that doesn't negate that (true) science is simply open, unbiased inquiry into the workings of things.

Of course there can be (and does exist) bias within segments of any community, scientific or otherwise.

I've always found it ironic that anti-science crowd willingly drives cars, goes to the dr, or watches television, etc. It's impossible to live in this modern world and reject science without being a hypocrite. (Not that science can answer all questions, of course.)

We’re born into the world fully naive to the world around us. Having to stop driving a car or using a phone would be like asking a life long smoker to quit cold turkey. Let’s get off of science though for a moment. There’s another thread on this board right now that I’ve been avoiding intentionally because I don’t feel it’s the proper venue to speak on certain things but it’s the one where one of the members is being denied marriage because the family hired a psychic or something and they basically prophesied saying that bad would come of the marriage. For one only God knows the outcome of anything and for two it’s divination. Something else the world has been tricked into accepting as normal. There are people out there literally communicating with beings that they have no idea who they truly are and passing on messages that further bad agendas.

 

[Froli]

Religion or not.. if you are a good/reasonable person, then that's all what matters.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Apparently not if bad things are constantly happening to good people.

 

[Shifty]

Been debating about whether to post in here for a bit, but ah screw it here goes.

I'll say straight out that I'm atheist and therefore already way biased on the topic, I went through a Church of England primary school education and came to my own conclusions by the end of it.

So, my first thought upon reading the OP was "surely you can't just flip a switch and be Christian?"
I'm not talking about it in a member's club or acceptance kind of way, but more the act of consciously deciding to believe without any kind of stimulus to push me in that direction. I'd be concerned about feeling like I was lying to myself.
I know that I'm an analytical 'doubt all claims' sort with the aformentioned bias which explains that feeling to a degree, but can it really be so simple even for someone who identifies as agnostic?

 

[Freshmaker]

Some of the moral code of Christianity pretty much align with what any decent human being believes in. Ex: Don't kill or steal

The only thing that I see that separates a Christian and a non-believer is the belief of Jesus Christ. However, besides that is there anything that I should be aware of?

If you are wondering why I am thinking of being a Christian is because I pretty much joined a Christian fellowship, which at first I just wanted to chill and network but I feel their influence rubbing on me.

Gotta go to church on Sunday or maybe Saturday and give 10% of your income to the church.

Or be a real Christian and do nothing and never go to church and sullenly resent the suggestion that perhaps you should.

 

[138]

OP, find a community. A welcoming church is fine, but so is a band, a theatre group, a small town project, etc.

The important thing is the human connection with people who can share your experiences.

 

[VAL0R]

Religion or not.. if you are a good/reasonable person, then that's all what matters.

Unless of course religion is true, in which case there is a literal Hell to pay for this careless attitude.

 

[Shiki_]

Unless of course religion is true, in which case there is a literal Hell to pay for this careless attitude.

Pretty sure there's the purgatory if such situation happens.

 

[VAL0R]

I've really played with the idea of becoming religious..

But, I never intend on getting married again and I plan on living the rest of my life having lots of sex with my girlfriend.

When you finally meet Almighty God, I think you'll want to do better than, "I considered serving you, but I chose instead to spend my life fornicating with my girlfriend."

 

[VAL0R]

I don’t see it as seething hatred. I married into a catholic family. Are we not here to spread the gospel as well? If I’m wrong, I need to be led to truth. If someone else is wrong, I need to lead that person to truth. I ask questions and explain my views wherever I can.

Sax, the problem is you have become your own pope, believing the Holy Spirit guides you, personally. Left on your own devices you have stumbled into a pit of heresy like so many others before you. You are a essentially an non-Trinitarian, Arian heretic. I'm not sure I can even call your my "Christian" brother given that you don't even worship Jesus Christ! So, what do you call this bizarre arrangement of doctrines you have innovated and assembled for yourself? It certainly isn't Christianity. These beliefs of yours are way outside the bounds of traditional Christianity, Catholic or Protestant and are frankly, very common among pseudo-Christian cults.

Don't you see the arrogance of your position, that you put your own understanding above all the great Christian theologians, saints and philosophers of the past, who taught in harmony that Christ was divine? Men of incredible learning, masters of the ancient original languages, yet your unique interpretations are somehow obviously true if one only reads the Bible?

Let's just talk about the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ for a moment. One of your central arguments against this universally held doctrine among Christians for two thousands years, except a few scattered heretics, is that God can't die. How can God die, you say, and yet remain God? This question has been well answered for many centuries among Christian theologians! It's because God added a human nature to his divine nature. Christ is one person with two natures, human and divine, the God-man. Fully God and fully man, begotten not made, consubstantial (of the same divine substance or essence) with the Father. Yes, Jesus' divine nature cannot die and has all divine attributes. But his human nature is truly human as ours is. His human nature can bleed and suffer and die. This explains why some passages in the scriptures emphasize the humanity of Christ and others his deity. I ask you, is it beyond the power of God to add a human nature to the divine nature? No, God can do all things.

 

[VAL0R]

Would you want someone praying to you? And more importantly, the Catholic Church doesn’t even know who Christ is or even worse possibly purposely try to misguide people. The image of Christ they’ve created looks nothing like him. You now have millions of people wearing jewelry with him hanging on a cross which would make him an idol. He would have never wanted that. And again they call him God. He’s the SON of God. Read Hebrews 5:11-14. Christ was even given a place BY GOD HIMSELF. God didn’t give HIMSELF a place nor did Christ call out to himself on the cross. Pretty much every piece of scripture where the two are mentioned is as a relationship between Father and son yet Rome has somehow twisted it to be one entity. That makes no sense. The one verse you’re hit with as a child right off the bat is John 3:16. If it were anything other than that then it would have said so. And please don’t give me the cop of “allegory” or “but it’s been translated many times”. No one gets to the Father but through the Son. You do also realize that God is everlasting? He can’t die. Christ would have never died if he were God himself and sins would have never been redeemed.

Sax, you say Christ doesn't want us to pray to him. Then why does the great Saint Stephen, the fist martyr of the Church, explicitly pray to Jesus Christ as he was dying from being stoned to death? Do you know more about the will of Christ than Stephen?

"And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep" (Acts 7:59,60)


...Please forgive the quad post all!

 

[JimboJones]

Unless of course religion is true, in which case there is a literal Hell to pay for this careless attitude.

Wow, god seems kinda like a cunt if he has an attitude like that.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Sax, you say Christ doesn't want us to pray to him. Then why does the great Saint Stephen, the fist martyr of the Church, explicitly pray to Jesus Christ as he was dying from being stoned to death? Do you know more about the will of Christ than Stephen?

"And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep" (Acts 7:59,60)


...Please forgive the quad post all!

You’re misunderstanding the praying part. I said that in reference to praying to saints or having them “intercede” for you. Of course we are to pray in Christ’s name as there is no way to get to the Father but through the son. Did Christ say anyone should intercede for him? But that makes me wonder about the name change. Again, if his name is Yeshua, which everyone with a mouth can say just fine, then why was there a need to translate it into something else? Same goes for many of the other saints you think you’re talking to. Paul’s name isn’t Paul and Peter isn’t Peter.

Not only that but let’s take your most venerated saint Mary. There are 1.29 BILLION Catholics world wide. Mary was a person. You really think she has the power or authority to hear the prayers of millions of people at once? By who’s authority was she given that power because it sure doesn’t mention it anywhere in scripture.

Read 2 John 1-4. Christ calls Mary “woman”. He doesn’t call her mother, he doesn’t call her great one, he simply calls her woman. That’s because she’s not his mother. She provided a vessel and that part of the chapter for God’s will to be fulfilled. That’s it.

As far as calling me a heretic I’d say call me whatever you want. God knows my heart. What do you mean believing the Holy Spirit guides me? Are we not given discernment by the spirit? You’re leaning on discernment of men. Read Luke 20 starting at verse 34. This should answer both of your questions as Christ speaks of GODS children, not HIS children and he also says that God is the God of the living not the dead.

The life within us comes from God and at some point determined by Him, He ends our earthly journey. If all life comes from God, and God died, then life on the planet would have all died at once when he supposedly died on the cross. He didn’t die on the cross. His son did. His son even called out to Him, ABBA! What was he calling out to himself? Does he sit at the right hand of himself?

I’ve said it once in this thread and I’ll say it again, there’s 100% no way ANYONE can read the Bible without human interference and come away saying that Christ was God. By saying he is, you’re denying Christ as the Son of God and turning him into an idol. Can you explain Matthew 10:32-33 to me along your lines of thinking?

 

[VAL0R]

Pretty sure there's the purgatory if such situation happens.

Purgatory is only for the blessed souls who die in a state of grace and are being purified to be in God's presence. All who do not die in a state of grace, die with their sins and are damned without hope.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Purgatory is only for the blessed souls who die in a state of grace and are being purified to be in God's presence. All who do not die in a state of grace, die with their sins and are damned without hope.

Where’s purgatory mentioned in scripture?

 

[VAL0R]

You’re misunderstanding the praying part. I said that in reference to praying to saints or having them “intercede” for you. Of course we are to pray in Christ’s name as there is no way to get to the Father but through the son. Did Christ say anyone should intercede for him? But that makes me wonder about the name change. Again, if his name is Yeshua, which everyone with a mouth can say just fine, then why was there a need to translate it into something else? Same goes for many of the other saints you think you’re talking to. Paul’s name isn’t Paul and Peter isn’t Peter.

Not only that but let’s take your most venerated saint Mary. There are 1.29 BILLION Catholics world wide. Mary was a person. You really think she has the power or authority to hear the prayers of millions of people at once? By who’s authority was she given that power because it sure doesn’t mention it anywhere in scripture.

Read 2 John 1-4. Christ calls Mary “woman”. He doesn’t call her mother, he doesn’t call her great one, he simply calls her woman. That’s because she’s not his mother. She provided a vessel and that part of the chapter for God’s will to be fulfilled. That’s it.

As far as calling me a heretic I’d say call me whatever you want. God knows my heart. What do you mean believing the Holy Spirit guides me? Are we not given discernment by the spirit? You’re leaning on discernment of men. Read Luke 20 starting at verse 34. This should answer both of your questions as Christ speaks of GODS children, not HIS children and he also says that God is the God of the living not the dead.

The life within us comes from God and at some point determined by Him, He ends our earthly journey. If all life comes from God, and God died, then life on the planet would have all died at once when he supposedly died on the cross. He didn’t die on the cross. His son did. His son even called out to Him, ABBA! What was he calling out to himself? Does he sit at the right hand of himself?

I’ve said it once in this thread and I’ll say it again, there’s 100% no way ANYONE can read the Bible without human interference and come away saying that Christ was God. By saying he is, you’re denying Christ as the Son of God and turning him into an idol. Can you explain Matthew 10:32-33 to me along your lines of thinking?

FYI, I'm not trying to insult you by calling you a heretic. Just letting you know that technically you are a heretic, as a caution, for your soul.

 

[VAL0R]

Where’s purgatory mentioned in scripture?

Well, in the complete Christian scriptures (that include the Catholic deuterocanonical books that Protestants tore out after over a thousand years of use in Churches all over the world, and still in use in Catholic parishes everywhere), there is reference to praying for the dead. But you assume I share your belief in "sola scriptura" (scripture alone), which is a Protestant idea, unknown to the early Church and a false teaching. The Church is informed by the scriptures, of course, but also by the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church, as it always has been. For example, in the Bible an apostle (Paul, I think) exhorts his readers to obey what was written and taught by word of mouth. The written scriptures were never the only rule of faith for believers, never. In fact the earliest Christians didn't even have a New Testament at all, that we do today. Again, that was given to us by the Catholic Church.

 

[Airola]

You’re misunderstanding the praying part. I said that in reference to praying to saints or having them “intercede” for you. Of course we are to pray in Christ’s name as there is no way to get to the Father but through the son. Did Christ say anyone should intercede for him? But that makes me wonder about the name change. Again, if his name is Yeshua, which everyone with a mouth can say just fine, then why was there a need to translate it into something else? Same goes for many of the other saints you think you’re talking to. Paul’s name isn’t Paul and Peter isn’t Peter.

....................


The life within us comes from God and at some point determined by Him, He ends our earthly journey. If all life comes from God, and God died, then life on the planet would have all died at once when he supposedly died on the cross. He didn’t die on the cross. His son did. His son even called out to Him, ABBA! What was he calling out to himself? Does he sit at the right hand of himself?

I’ve said it once in this thread and I’ll say it again, there’s 100% no way ANYONE can read the Bible without human interference and come away saying that Christ was God. By saying he is, you’re denying Christ as the Son of God and turning him into an idol. Can you explain Matthew 10:32-33 to me along your lines of thinking?

Now, I personally don't believe you have to be correct in theological interpretations about what Jesus is. I think if you believe through his death and resurrection you are saved, you are saved. It doesn't matter if you are wrong in the specifics of the deal. I believe the Bible is both very simple and very complex so that people who can't understand the complex things about God (like children) can still have the needed simple knowledge to be saved, and for those who require more information and are more into science and want to know much more before they believe are also able to get the needed understanding from the Bible. So I think it doesn't matter what you think about Trinity or any other concepts that go beyond believing Jesus is the Messiah who came to save us.

That said, I think the beginning of The New Testament goes very much against what you said.
"In the beginning was The Word, and the Word was God and the Word was with God."

There is the concept of something both being a thing and being with a thing at the same time.

 

[VAL0R]

FYI, I am a convert to Catholicism. I was formerly a Protestant who hated the Catholic Church and loved reformed theology.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Was God as in the will of God. Just as Christ said if you’ve seen me you’ve seen my Father. With God as he was with him. Let US create man in OUR image. As far as being wrong in the specifics, I don’t think that’s correct. It was said that some would say they casted out demons in his name and he’d say I never knew you. And Valor, you haven’t answered my questions, Brotha! Hebrews 9:27 says we die once and after that judgement. It’s also said that there are those who don’t enter rest. I’m pretty sure those are the ones that lurk in the shadows.

 

[Airola]

Was God as in the will of God. Just as Christ said if you’ve seen me you’ve seen my Father. With God as he was with him. Let US create man in OUR image.

The Word was God and The Word was with God. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

It falls perfectly in line with "Let us create man in our image."

It is clear The Word is meant to be Jesus Christ as later John writes The Word became flesh. The first lines say The Word was there in the beginning, and that the Word was both God and with God.

They are distinct individual things, yet still part of the same thing.

As far as being wrong in the specifics, I don’t think that’s correct. It was said that some would say they casted out demons in his name and he’d say I never knew you.

Sure. If someone makes miracles in the name of Christ it doesn't immediately mean he thinks Christ is the only one that can save him.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Christ is the word of God. God speaks and his word is manifest through Christ. Read John chapter 1 in its entirety. The first 5 or so verses and the last 5 or so verses make it clear that it’s two beings. But Christ only does the will of God. He doesn’t deviate as he’d then be out of agreement with The father and the Holy Spirit. All 3 are in agreement, God was before Christ. You can’t beget something and have it always exist with you. Read revelation 12. It’s the birth of Christ in spirit. Christ has a mother, it’s not Mary as the woman in revelation 12 is before the war took place in heaven. Christ is born, God takes him up to the throne, the evil one gets jealous of the son and the plan to give earth to humankind (selfish) and the war in heaven breaks out and evil and 1/3rd are cast out.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[VAL0R]

God was before Christ. You can’t beget something and have it always exist with you.

Yes you can. A thing might be logically prior and yet not temporally prior at the same time. For an example, imagine an eternal bowling ball resting on an eternal pillow, causing an indent in the pilllow. The pillow is indented from the weight of the bowling ball from all eternity. Even though both objects are eternal, the indent has a logically prior cause in the weight of the ball.

The same sort of logic can be applied to God. The first person of the Trinity (Father) is logically prior to the second (Son), but not temporally (in time). So the Son flows from the Father from all eternity. The Son is "eternally begotten." Of course Jesus' human nature, (that was added to the eternal divine nature - two natures in one person) is not eternally past, but was created and the Son became incarnate in the womb of the Virgin Mary, in ancient Palestine. And so the ancient Nicene Creed says, "begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father [sharing the divine essence]":

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Can you or I give birth to ourselves? No. That would be a copy. My children aren’t copies of me. They’re like me and begotten of me but aren’t me. And you keep ducking out on revelation 12 which is again the birth of Christ before creation. There was a time where Christ didn’t exist and there was only God. God takes Christ up to the throne AFTER he was born in spirit so he’s not eternally begotten. I don’t want to see views and opinions of other men. Show me what you speak of in scripture. John 14:28 Christ himself says I am going to the Father for the Father is greater than I. Not once did he put himself above God in scripture. There is order from God. Disorder comes from something else. There is one that wanted to take the throne of heaven and be like God. That’s not Christ. Christ is the lamb OF God.

 

[VAL0R]

Can you or I give birth to ourselves? No. That would be a copy. My children aren’t copies of me. They’re like me and begotten of me but aren’t me. And you keep ducking out on revelation 12 which is again the birth of Christ before creation. There was a time where Christ didn’t exist and there was only God. God takes Christ up to the throne AFTER he was born in spirit so he’s not eternally begotten. I don’t want to see views and opinions of other men. Show me what you speak of in scripture. John 14:28 Christ himself says I am going to the Father for the Father is greater than I. Not once did he put himself above God in scripture. There is order from God. Disorder comes from something else. There is one that wanted to take the throne of heaven and be like God. That’s not Christ. Christ is the lamb OF God.

I'll look at Revelation 12 and get back to you. But this is just another peculiar doctrine that you hold to that flies in the face of all Church history. You are your own island doctrinally. I'd rather stand with the intellectual giants and holy men of faith before me.

 

[Airola]

Christ is the word of God. God speaks and his word is manifest through Christ. Read John chapter 1 in its entirety. The first 5 or so verses and the last 5 or so verses make it clear that it’s two beings. But Christ only does the will of God. He doesn’t deviate as he’d then be out of agreement with The father and the Holy Spirit. All 3 are in agreement, God was before Christ. You can’t beget something and have it always exist with you. Read revelation 12. It’s the birth of Christ in spirit. Christ has a mother, it’s not Mary as the woman in revelation 12 is before the war took place in heaven. Christ is born, God takes him up to the throne, the evil one gets jealous of the son and the plan to give earth to humankind (selfish) and the war in heaven breaks out and evil and 1/3rd are cast out.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Just as Christ wasn't human before he was a human, yet still existed before being born as a human, The Word existed before the Mother gave birth to the Child. The Man (Jesus) is The Christ is The Child is The Word.
Understanding how many seemingly separate things are in unity, in this case in tri-unity, explains perfectly why anyone could write The Word was at the same time with God and God.

No-one here disagrees Christ and God are two beings. It falls in line with how Trinity is understood. No-one here disagrees when you say Jesus never put himself on top of God. Jesus said he doesn't know everything. Only the Father knows everything. People haven't forgotten that. When they were discussing about the concept of Trinity for the first time they surely understood that there are separate beings and that Jesus himself always thought the Father to be higher than him. Yet they managed to write down the idea of Trinity by examining scripture.

Anyway, I don't quite like to see this thread, where a person asked whether becoming a Christian would have any huge effect on his life, to become a battleground for Christians of different denominations - where they even hint that the other might not believe things right enough. And honestly I think you could discuss without using condescending facepalm smilies. Not that it makes anyone a less of a Christian but considering the original purpose of this thread things like that might discourage people from getting further into Christianity.

Oh well, maybe I'm the biggest heretic of us all when I'm arguing the belief in Jesus Christ being the Messiah is enough for salvation for both of you

Theological discussions are great. I love taking part of them. But in my opinion they most often are about things that are trivial to what comes to salvation - which is the number one thing the Gospels exist for.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

I didn’t mean to be condescending. We’re supposed to be able to rely on eachother for help. If I’m trying to share knowledge it’s out of love. The facepalm is because I truly don’t understand how people come to the conclusion they do on who Christ is. If Christ himself said he was sent here by God, and is the son of God, yet you believe somehow that Christ is God, wouldn’t that make Christ into a liar? God into a liar? It would mean that whenever he was talking about his Father he was lying about who he is. It just simply doesn’t work. Why wouldn’t he just say he was God? He never does that anywhere in scripture. Priests and theologians can’t point to it anywhere in scripture or explain it because it doesn’t make any sense.

When people were waiting for the messiah, who were they waiting for? What was the prophecy?

 

[camelCase]

Christians aren't different from everyone else just they believe in some weird shit. You're overthinking this like a motherfucker, try it , if it jives then you're cool and if not then drop it, what's the problem right?

 

[Airola]

I didn’t mean to be condescending. We’re supposed to be able to rely on eachother for help. If I’m trying to share knowledge it’s out of love. The facepalm is because I truly don’t understand how people come to the conclusion they do on who Christ is. If Christ himself said he was sent here by God, and is the son of God, yet you believe somehow that Christ is God, wouldn’t that make Christ into a liar? God into a liar? It would mean that whenever he was talking about his Father he was lying about who he is. It just simply doesn’t work. Why wouldn’t he just say he was God? He never does that anywhere in scripture. Priests and theologians can’t point to it anywhere in scripture or explain it because it doesn’t make any sense.

When people were waiting for the messiah, who were they waiting for? What was the prophecy?

Jesus said this: "I and the Father are one."
Jesus said this: "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me."

It is no wonder John, who had actually been with Jesus and listened to him speak, wrote "The Word was with God and The Word was God."
He was a person very close to Jesus and believed Jesus is The Word and that The Word was at the same time with God and The Word was God. I don't think you can deny at least John believing that. That is how he decided to begin the most important writing he could ever write. This concept of The Word and how it is with God and how it is God must've been important to John.

It's also no wonder that after reading the scriptures extensively and thoroughly people wanted to delve deeper into that concept, trying to figure it out.
It's no wonder they came up with the concept of Trinity. It is the most logical explanation for The Word at the same time being with God and being God and for Jesus saying how he and the Father are one. It seems as if every problem you see can be explained by the concept of Trinity. You may say how he can be at the same time The Son and God and how he can die but still exist and how he was sent by God even if he is God, but the concept of Trinity is exactly what was thought of to explain those exact things. You are basically trying to dismiss the concept of Trinity by creating problems the concept of Trinity already was set up to solve.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

I think that goes back to the verse that says there are 3 and all three are one meaning in agreement with eachother. The Father is in him as he’s the son. My own father is in me and I’m in my father as i'm his offspring. Again how do you return to yourself, stand by yourself or get an us or our out of one person? And I keep pointing back to rev12 where Christ is born and taken up to God. God gives him a scepter of iron. That same scepter is in psalm 2:4-10, rev 2:26-27, and rev 19:11-16. also read matthew 15:3-9.

 

[Froli]

Unless of course religion is true, in which case there is a literal Hell to pay for this careless attitude.

Careless attitude = LOL
uhh I mean, sorry to the vengeful god up there for saying being a good reasonable person is enough.

 

[partime]

Not reading through 3 pages of posts, but dude, seriously.

If there's any smudge of a fraction of percentage christians are right, .. dude. I don't wanna be burning in hell for eternity.

Get your shit together, believe in your heart that Jesus did live and died for the stupid shit you do (which is factually correct), and after 3 days rose and went back to Heaven.

Just think of it, winning millions in the lottery? Not a chance in hell.
Believing in Jesus and in fact come judgement day He's looking at you going, why u do that? Come on, love Him, do what seculars do, but instead of living a full life full of ME, live a life that is pleasing to God, which is secularism without the YOU. Live for others, love them, and be good stewards in the name of Him who's providing a life of prosperity in His kingdom after you die.

People think Christians live on a 'higher standard' and look down on you. If they do screw them, 'love your neighbor as yourself' Mark 12:31

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Speaking of Mark, there's another one that proves the trinity as 3 entities. Blasphemy of the holy spirit. The unforgivable sin. Mark 3:28. Christ goes on in Matthew 12:31 saying that speaking against him would be forgiven but speaking against the Holy Spirit would not.

 

[VAL0R]

Speaking of Mark, there's another one that proves the trinity as 3 entities. Blasphemy of the holy spirit. The unforgivable sin. Mark 3:28. Christ goes on in Matthew 12:31 saying that speaking against him would be forgiven but speaking against the Holy Spirit would not.

Sax, you keep pointing to distinctions of the members of the Trinity as proof that there is no Trinity, even though Trinitarians do believe in three distinct persons in one being. So, these points you're making have absolutely no power. It seems to me you don't even understand the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. You're acting as if we believe Modalism, that there is one being who presents in different forms or modes. Modalism is heresy.

Anyway, I also read Revelation 12. I'm pretty sure Catholic theologians believe this is a reference to Mary, while at least some Protestants see a symbolic Israel. Nobody sees this as referring to Christ having another human mother, except you. Once again, you lean on your own outlandish understanding. Be careful with Revelation, a notoriously difficult and symbolic book. You'd be better to interpret the unclear in light of the clear. In other words, if Mary is plainly described as the Mother of Christ in numerous places in scripture and then in Revelation we see a mysterious woman and a dragon and all sorts of apocalyptic imagery, don't form a view of Christ's mother based on the highly symbolic and famously difficult texts. Read Revelation in light of the other passages that are easy to understand. For example, "the gospels clearly say Mary is Christ's mother, so this woman who is the mother of Christ in Revelation must either be Mary or perhaps symbolic of something else."