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[PolarGamer]

Smash just posted this on pouet.net. He's not super happy or optimistic. http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=9599

maybe i need a disclaimer: "my comments, opinions and demoscene activity are in no way endorsed by my employer".

that kokato thread is depressing. remind me to ensure my job and my hobby never get linked in any way at all. the pouet comments were bad enough. i wish this had never made it to kokatu and been presented in this way, they've done us more harm than good.

this was just a small demo made in a quite short time for fun for a quite small eastern european demoparty. it aimed to prove a new effect that's never been done in realtime before (large scale volumetric rendering w/fluids, shadows, lighting etc - if you think you can do this same thing with particles right now, or could be done on a ps3 at 30hz, you're .. wrong/thick. trust me. in both of those topics i know what im talking about.), and enable some messing around with procedural "infinite landscape" generation. it's wrapped up into a package with an actual concept. it could be better, it's too long and there were some bugs etc. if you were expecting anything more, it doesnt live up to your expectations or whatever, tough shit. if you like it, great. that's where it ends.
honestly i think the audience reception was harsh on both sides of the fence and i think the expectations for "big name" demos these days is completely unreasonable especially given how few are released and how poor the "average release" actually is. there's always scope for criticism but it's important to keep a balance and an open mind.

now i guess i should comment on the whole "ps4 demos" thing (reminding of my earlier disclaimer) - as gargaj said, the issue is that opening a platform to anyone who is not a registered developer and has not signed a load of legal agreements is either a) going to take a lot of effort and cost on the part of the platform owner to make a secure environment, or b) going to scare the bejesus out of publishers who make big games for the platform and are worried about piracy. or c), both.

if the only way to release demos legally on a platform is by registering as a developer and getting a devkit, then putting the demo out on the store (even if for free), that costs someone a bunch of money - kits, release certification etc etc, even ignoring the time and resources sunk by the person who actually has to make the damn demo.

while ive heard an argument for why someone would want to watch a demo (for free) on a ps4/xbone, i havent heard a good argument why someone would want to make one (this thread is not full of people from the handful of remaining good demogroups who could actually make this worthwhile, asking to make a great demo on these platforms for free), and i havent heard a good argument why a platform owner would want to throw the required money and resources at it to make it happen.

so what is left is just a bunch of people going "it would be nice if someone else would do this so i can watch it.. (for free obviously. and i'll probably diss it for some reason when it happens.)", which is exactly whats wrong with pouet/this scene nowadays.

 

[Shaneus]

Smash just posted this on pouet.net. He's not super happy or optimistic. http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=9599

Wow, it's really blown up in there (not in a good or bad way, but I'm glad there's discussion going on). Thanks for clarifying in there the reasons why coders etc. *might* see a benefit in it. I was thinking that as I read Smash's post, but obviously I don't want to sign up and have my first post on pouet.net be something potentially completely clueless

Edit: Oh god, I just read those Kotaku comments. Absolutely clueless bunch of gits. Fuck, I'm not a coder or artist or anything but I can appreciate exactly what's being done in Apocalypse When and countless others.

 

[FirewalkR]

I'm unsure if this is entirely technically possible, because devkits usually are somewhat different, but assuming you can use a regular PC for development and export the builds to the console, what if Sony fully opened up, not the PS4, but the PS3.

It might not be right now, but a while after the PS4 releases, they could release the full PS3 specs and documentation, accompanied by the PC dev tools (most likely VS based).
Security/Piracy problems will become less and less relevant for the PS3 as the platform nears the end of its lifecycle, although the fact that PS4 has no retrocompatibility might hamper things a bit.
Also, it is an incredibly complex machine, especially regarding the Cell, just the way sceners like it, so it would be a challenge many might be willing to take.

 

[BobTheFork]

When I read 'demo scene' I thought meant and 'attract screen' and I'd love to see that.
Just have the console bust into a demo real of recent games when you leave it idle for 5 minutes. That would be pretty terrible.

 

[Shaneus]

Just a thought: We know that at E3 or whatever it was, a number of demos for both platforms were running on regular PCs with specific hardware components. What if rather than "dev kits", Sony or MS offered a software development platform with a very specific hardware base that wasn't a console itself? Something like "Here, have a PC with an AMD HD7850 and proprietary Linux build... go nuts".

I don't know if that's a thing that could be workable, but it might be?

 

[PolarGamer]

I'm unsure if this is entirely technically possible, because devkits usually are somewhat different, but assuming you can use a regular PC for development and export the builds to the console, what if Sony fully opened up, not the PS4, but the PS3.

That´s an exciting idea. If it is possible, it could probably not happen in 5-10 years. I could see coders jumping on that, but It would be a relatively small part of an already small group

Just a thought: We know that at E3 or whatever it was, a number of demos for both platforms were running on regular PCs with specific hardware components. What if rather than "dev kits", Sony or MS offered a software development platform with a very specific hardware base that wasn't a console itself? Something like "Here, have a PC with an AMD HD7850 and proprietary Linux build... go nuts".

I don't know if that's a thing that could be workable, but it might be?

Hmm. Sounds like a devkit doesn´t it?

 

[Knuf]

Well worth the watch:
Moleman 2 - Demoscene - The Art of the Algorithms

 

[panda21]

with all the DRM stuff in place it seems very unlikely that sony would want to risk another ps3 linux type situation by allowing everyone to create software that takes full advantage of the hardware.

it would be way too easy to pirate stuff so i can't see it ever happening.

 

[FeiRR]

Well worth the watch:
Moleman 2 - Demoscene - The Art of the Algorithms

Damn, I'm in that film . They caught us at a party, already a bit drunk, and asked serious questions. They even put us on IMDB, lol. Yeah, it's a great documentary about demoscene.

 

[Shaneus]

I've never heard of it, will check it out! I met someone at AusPAX this year (in the retro gaming area, hah) and he boasted that he was in footage used for Mindcandy 2. Lucky bastard, I wish I could code

 

[PolarGamer]

I will also watch the movie. Ps. What group are you in FeiRR, and what did you think about the pouet-thread. I was not very popular in the end there

 

[FeiRR]

I will also watch the movie. Ps. What group are you in FeiRR, and what did you think about the pouet-thread. I was not very popular in the end there

Sorry to respond so late but I had to find time to read through that thread on Pouet. My group was the "RR" part of my nickname. It's been defunct for a few years but I picked it up for my PSN ID because "Fei" was taken for obvious reasons.

Unfortunately I have to say I agree with most what was said there and the general consensus is that there's a very small chance demoscene and console gaming will share interests. But you succeeded in one thing: getting some of the most prominent coders to express themselves about the idea. Just remember that Pouet is like GAF: it's just a forum, it doesn't represent the community. There are trolls as well and some sense of separation from the rest of the internet. I must say they didn't treat you that bad, they answered your questions and all. You were finally treated to the old meme "make a demo about it" and that's the furthest you will get on Pouet. You may be surprised there's so much salt in that approach but trust me: we tried to propagate demoscene among people who have no idea about it. I personally went to several sci-fi and anime conventions to show demos, we invited gamedev people to demoparties. It doesn't seem to work. It's easier to make people interested in gamedev or sites like shadertoy (mentioned) than in demoscene. I think demoscene will end when the +30 generation (which I'm also a part of) finally stops using computers for creativity.

But in the meantime, while we are still alive and (reasonably) kicking, I hope you won't give up. If you can, definitely go to a demoparty to see how it works in reality (because, you know, internet isn't real . The soonest one in Norway is http://kg.slengpung.com/2013/ And if you want to continue the discussion for some reason, feel free to PM me.

 

[Shaneus]

I know there are some very small parties (I guess they're called democompos when they're relatively small?) in Australia, I really should go to one to see what sort of mischief people get up to.

 

[PolarGamer]

Sorry to respond so late but I had to find time to read through that thread on Pouet. My group was the "RR" part of my nickname. It's been defunct for a few years but I picked it up for my PSN ID because "Fei" was taken for obvious reasons.

Unfortunately I have to say I agree with most what was said there and the general consensus is that there's a very small chance demoscene and console gaming will share interests.

After everything I have to agree with you. Ps. Thanks for the name explanation.

But you succeeded in one thing: getting some of the most prominent coders to express themselves about the idea.

Yeah. I'm pretty happy about that. It wasn't the answer some of us wanted, but at least it was an answer.

You were finally treated to the old meme "make a demo about it" and that's the furthest you will get on Pouet. You may be surprised there's so much salt in that approach but trust me: we tried to propagate demoscene among people who have no idea about it. I personally went to several sci-fi and anime conventions to show demos, we invited gamedev people to demoparties. It doesn't seem to work. It's easier to make people interested in gamedev or sites like shadertoy (mentioned) than in demoscene. I think demoscene will end when the +30 generation (which I'm also a part of) finally stops using computers for creativity.

Thanks for trying! It seems like darkness is creeping on the demo scene. It's bad enough that all my demo loving friends just quit after the Amiga died. The open platform of PCs was the most common explanation.

But in the meantime, while we are still alive and (reasonably) kicking, I hope you won't give up. If you can, definitely go to a demoparty to see how it works in reality (because, you know, internet isn't real . The soonest one in Norway is http://kg.slengpung.com/2013/ And if you want to continue the discussion for some reason, feel free to PM me.

I'd love to visit a party so thats a good tip - I'm just sorry I didn't go to the first Gatherings while the scene was still thriving. Talk to you later!

 

[Lord Error]

Does anyone know what's the demo they show at 13:32, with teh bulldozer coming out of the ground?
http://vimeo.com/40192433

 

[TJUK]

The demo scene was dead to me after Future Crews "Second Reality" in the 1990s. Nothing ever topped that in my opinion.