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[DeathyBoy]

Sorry, I meant naturally over as a singles wrestler. No question that he was over with The Shield.

It wasn't them thinking they had to choose between Reigns and Bryan. It was that Roman was getting the big Rumble/WrestleMania push at a time when most people thought it should have been Bryan getting that push. Bryan winning the Rumble and going on to face Brock at WM31 for the title he never lost was fucking money. Instead Vince pretty much made the exact same mistake he made at the Royal Rumble the year before with Batista.

Eh, I wonder how that crowd would've reacted if Rollins cashed in MITB and beat Bryan at Mania.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Good analysis from With Spandex. Pretty much how I feel, but better written

This is the most baller moment on WWE TV in years. Probably the most baller moment since CM Punk didn't let a Royal Rumble get in the way of his drug and alcohol awareness seminar. Or Punk screaming in Vince McMahon's face about how he doesn't know what the audience wants anymore. Roman Reigns is CM Punk now, is what I'm saying.

If you missed the segment — and if you did, I'm sorry for your loss — Roman Reigns opened the Raw after the WrestleMania where he, you know, handily defeated and retired the most consistently popular and most consistently ”WWE" WWE Superstar in history. And not only was his appearance the opening of the show, it was the moment that interrupted a minutes-long ”Thank you Taker" chant. The crowd was not ready to say nice things to him.

So he shows up and, in total silence, takes about 10 minutes of the most directly insulting things an arena full of people can thank of. I was in this crowd, and while I didn't participate in every chant, I'm pretty sure we cycled through everything we could think of. These included:

”Roman sucks"
”Just go home"
[booing intensifies]
”Delete"
”Asshole"
”Fuck you Roman"
”Shut the fuck up"
Roman just stood there slowly raising the microphone to his face as the crowd treated him like Vickie Guerrero in her heyday. Instead of cutting a long recap promo about what happened, instead of putting over the Undertaker and the tough match they had at WrestleMania, instead of explaining his nicknames and telling us he doesn't care if we boo him or cheer him, Roman simply said, ”this is my yard now," dropped the microphone and left. It. Was. Amazing. It made like half the section I was going in turn from ”boo roman reigns boo boooo" to ”Roman Reigns is my favorite wrestler" in a sentence.

This is what Roman Reigns needs to be. He's the top dog. The big, top dog. He's done everything you can do in a WWE career, and he's just getting started. Isn't that scary? The guy closed out the last three WrestleManias. In the first one, he almost beat Brock Lesnar. In the second, he beat Triple H to win the championship. In the third, he RETIRED THE UNDERTAKER. AT WRESTLEMANIA. What the hell does he have to prove to US? He doesn't have to try to be cool, or attempt to prove it, or try to convince us anymore. Every promo he cuts should just be a shrug, followed by him pointing at his dick, giving us the finger and slapping his own ass.

 

[Mahonay]

You don't even need my anecdotal evidence, you just need to look at top at the top of the full-timer merch sales and the reaction he got on Monday. I don't know why you feel you have to defeat reality's facts.

So what? It's a three hour weekly show. You're not going to like everything. The demographics are broader than young dudes, guys. The business is passing you by.

Kurt fucking Angle is on TV every week again. You guys are miserable.

RAW was great last night.

LOL at having to completely eliminate Cena from the equation to make Roman the top seller. Part timer or not.

Also you have a ridiculous obsession with demographic statistics. As if pro wrestling is some complex equation that requires deep investigation and number crunching. Shit is dumb and they do dumb things.

 

[Ithil]

He main events Wrestlemanias, sells a ton of merch, has marquee matchups, is a pretty good worker, he dominates social media for years, is improving his promos and hes pretty young still. Is career path is working.

Look at his mannerisms in the ring and his promos, hes inviting you to boo for him and you all fall for it.

You dont like it, I get it, were all fantasy bookers to an extent, but hes doing fine.

He got booed for 10 straight minutes and the audience yelled "Fuck you, Roman".

That is not doing fine.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Huh? to be heel u have to beat up a face. Not in a match but unprovoked.

You guys have no imagination.

I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of millennial Jim Cornettes.

 

[Sephzilla]

He main events Wrestlemanias, sells a ton of merch, has marquee matchups, is a pretty good worker, he dominates social media for years, is improving his promos and hes pretty young still. Is career path is working.

Look at his mannerisms in the ring and his promos, hes inviting you to boo for him and you all fall for it.

You dont like it, I get it, were all fantasy bookers to an extent, but hes doing fine.

Ratings are down. Attendance is down. He's a distant second place in merch to a guy who's not even going to be on TV until Thanksgiving. His character is mishandled. His character has no real identity. Despite being booked as a face he's getting booed at most live TV shows. His two WrestleMania main events are considered some of the worst main events in the history of the event.

Maybe we'll just agree to disagree saying his career path is working.

Eh, I wonder how that crowd would've reacted if Rollins cashed in MITB and beat Bryan at Mania.

 

[Mahonay]

You guys have no imagination.

I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of millennial Jim Cornettes.

Everything you post suddenly makes sense

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Also you have a ridiculous obsession with demographic statistics.

It's a publicly traded global capitalist company. Money and attention are literally the only things that matter. "Best for business" is the frame of reference everyone uses.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

You guys have no imagination.

I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of millennial Jim Cornettes.

We're just able to see things for what they are instead of constructing idiotic false narratives to sound like we're somehow smarter than all the complainers.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

We're just able to see things for what they are

Spell it out for me. With numbers.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Ratings are down. Attendance is down. He's a distant second place in merch to a guy who's not even going to be on TV until Thanksgiving. His character is mishandled. His character has no real identity. Despite being booked as a face he's getting booed at most live TV shows. His two WrestleMania main events are considered some of the worst main events in the history of the event.

Maybe we'll just agree to disagree saying his career path is working.

If Bryan had hired the architect to fix his broken foundations, he'd still be wrestling.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Im totally fine with agreeing to disagreeing lol, we can catch up on this convo in 10 years when all these wrestlers start doing shoot podcasts

I love this image from the "shake up" promo. Its WWE directly telling you who it thinks its top stars are, from the main eventers in the first row to jobbers at the back, its savage

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Good analysis from With Spandex. Pretty much how I feel, but better written

I appreciate the Vickie Guerrero analogy here. This is spot on.

It's way simpler than people think. It just gets complicated when you have an ego about the possibility of getting worked and need to rationalize it.

 

[Sephzilla]

I like how LKBAP keeps asking for numbers and stats and then retorts with "my friends like Roman though". How about we stop letting him derail the thread and risk getting it locked like he did with the ratings thread and go back to talking about WrestleMania instead?

Wasn't that Shane vs AJ match fucking fantastic?

 

[Toki767]

I appreciate the Vickie Guerrero analogy here. This is spot on.

It's way simpler than people think. It just gets complicated when you have an ego about the possibility of getting worked and need to rationalize it.

Vickie was a heel.

Commentary never once tried to play her boos as people just having fun.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I like how LKBAP keeps asking for numbers and stats

They are pretty important if anyone here is going to have a salient argument for how Roman isn't the top full-timer who just got dream heat last night.

Vickie was a heel.

Commentary never once tried to play her boos as people just having fun.

Christ guys, do you think Michael Cole or Corey Graves think they're speaking to you still? They know you know how you feel. They make Cruiserweight and UK Tournaments for people like us.

Roman's a face to half the audience and a heel to the other. It's demographics. It's great. It's like sports. Pick your team.

 

[Jmanunknown]

He main events Wrestlemanias, sells a ton of merch, has marquee matchups, is a pretty good worker, he dominates social media for years, is improving his promos and hes pretty young still. Is career path is working.

Look at his mannerisms in the ring and his promos, hes inviting you to boo for him and you all fall for it.

You dont like it, I get it, were all fantasy bookers to an extent, but hes doing fine.

This is delusional Roman's not doing fine. When your hand picked supposed top face is being booed like he's the ultimate heel that person is not fine. As for where the blame lies with his current situation most of it is Vince and whoever does booking's fault and some of it is Roman's fault. Take the New Day as an example of a gimmick that was going bad with bad booking that took a turn for the better when the wrestlers themselves pitched an idea to management to try something different by turning heel and now they are one of the most over acts the WWE has and has ever had. They have their own cereal and soon to be ice cream.

 

[Krixeus]

Im totally fine with agreeing to disagreeing lol, we can catch up on this convo in 10 years when all these wrestlers start doing shoot podcasts

I love this image from the "shake up" promo. Its WWE directly telling you who it thinks its top stars are, from the main eventers in the first row to jobbers at the back, its savage

Yeah, but Rusev is in the back...

Oh...

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

This is delusional Roman's not doing fine. When your hand picked supposed top face is being booed like he's the ultimate heel that person is not fine.

That's the point. He retired the Undertaker. That was the obvious intended reaction.

Surprise guys, you're not fully on top of wrestling psychology anymore! Catch up with the rest of us. It's a New Era.

 

[Mahonay]

Yeah, but Rusev is in the back...

Oh...

 

[Sephzilla]

Im totally fine with agreeing to disagreeing lol, we can catch up on this convo in 10 years when all these wrestlers start doing shoot podcasts

 

[Haruko]

Yeah, but Rusev is in the back...

Oh...

 

[ReiGun]

So what, though? It's fucking wrestling, do you guys need your heels and faces plainly packaged and advertised to you like you're children? We can form opinions and express them, yes. Doesn't change that he's selling the most merch of the full-timers. Vote with your wallet.

By and large? Yes. That's exactly what detractors are saying they want. They want the simple, plain face/heel packaging.

It's like comic books. Will people indulge in the occasional story where Superman or Spider-Man are EVIL or have questionable morality? Sure, but by and large, they want the good to be heroes and the bad guys to be villains and for good to triumph in the end. WWE functions the same way for most people. They want the bad guys to just be bad guys. Even the ones they cheer; no one's clamoring for AJ Styles or Kevin Owens to turn face. Why? Because they're entertaining to those people the way they are.

Who else could come out and stand still for 15 minutes and get that reaction? Who cares if it's boos or cheers, man? That reaction is fucking gold any person in any entertainment industry would want.

No one gets that heat but Roman, and no one full-time sells more merch than Roman. Until you guys vote with your wallets and attention span, why change anything?

Fair enough. Like I said, if this is the reaction WWE wants, so be it. They're getting the desired response, so kudos.

But people are allowed to say they don't like it. People are allowed to question if that's the right direction. You keep going on about merch sales, but there's nothing special about Roman that he's the only person who could move merch like that given the right push.

That's ultimately the point of contention. WWE could go in another direction but dont, and for many, the reasons for not making any kind of switch aren't convincing and aren't making the product more enjoyable.

 

[Jmanunknown]

That's the point. He retired the Undertaker. That was the obvious intended reaction.

Surprise guys, you're not fully on top of wrestling psychology anymore! Catch up with the rest of us. It's a New Era.

I am not falling for this obvious trolling but you can keep doing you.

 

[Mahonay]

That's the point. He retired the Undertaker. That was the obvious intended reaction.

Surprise guys, you're not fully on top of wrestling psychology anymore! Catch up with the rest of us. It's a New Era.

THE BIG DAWG LIU KANG BAKING A PIE

 

[Toki767]

You guys are crazy if you think the desired effect last night by the WWE was having a crowd on live TV on a PG show plain as day chant "Fuck you Roman".

 

[WhateverItTakes]

Yeah, but Rusev is in the back...

Oh...

RuRu will RISE

Spoiler

in my dreams

 

[Sephzilla]

You guys are crazy if you think the desired effect last night by the WWE was having a crowd on live TV on a PG show plain as day chant "Fuck you Roman".

Especially considering they edited out those chants in the replay. And in the past they've edited fan reactions to make it look pro-Roman.

WWE isn't working some kind of crazy 4th dimensional New Kayfabe here. They're just trying to portray Roman as a hero. They've done this shit since the Hogan era in the 80s

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

By and large? Yes. That's exactly what detractors are saying they want. They want the simple, plain face/heel packaging.

It's like comic books. Will people indulge in the occasional story where Superman or Spider-Man are EVIL or have questionable morality? Sure, but by and large, they want the good to be heroes and the bad guys to be villains and for good to triumph in the end. WWE functions the same way for most people. They want the bad guys to just be bad guys. Even the ones they cheer; no one's clamoring for AJ Styles or Kevin Owens to turn face.

Take it from Kevin Owens himself: he wants Roman and Cena's reaction. He calls it interesting. Steve Austin agrees, it's fire, it's electricity. The crowd competes with each other, because expressions of opinions make the opposition get louder in response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkhZkowEO7Y
Start at 20:45

This is where wrestling's going. It's not as simple as faces (loved by casuals) vs heels (loved by the hardcore) anymore. It hasn't been that simple for a long time, CM Punk and Daniel Bryan were a huge part of this growing tension.

Fair enough. Like I said, if this is the reaction WWE wants, so be it. They're getting the desired response, so kudos.

But people are allowed to say they don't like it. People are allowed to question if that's the right direction. You keep going on about merch sales, but there's nothing special about Roman that he's the only person who could move merch like that given the right push.

It's the same people for years who still watch despite knowing in advance Roman is always going to be the Guy.

I think at this point people have to realize whatever WWE's putting out is still good enough for them to be this passionate about it. All you can do with a company in America is vote with your wallet and attention. I'm waiting for the hardcore to have any conviction at all.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Kurt Angle: “Seth Rollins’ partner will be Finn…”
*Crowd goes wild*
Kurt Angle: “Jones!!! *Iron Fist comes out*”
*Crowd Riots*

I laughed

 

[The Strokes]

So you guys beef is that WWE is packaging him as a face? No matter what heelish things he does, no matter what you see, the WWE's packages determine what he is?

Okay..

Is this a joke post? Because you're pointing to the obvious as if it wasn't true.

Did you miss how commentary referred to last night's crowd basically as 'alt-fans' for booing Roman?

 

[Chopper]

That's the point. He retired the Undertaker. That was the obvious intended reaction.

Surprise guys, you're not fully on top of wrestling psychology anymore! Catch up with the rest of us. It's a New Era.

They could get away with it last night, cos it's "bizarro land" or whatever the fuck the commentators were saying to justify the reaction. What'll be interesting is what happens next. If the crowd reactions stay anywhere near as negative, and the commentators play it down, that's bullshit. If they accept that Reigns acted like a prick this week, and they start to book him against faces, everything will change. The fact that the plan appears to be "chuck him straight into another title program", doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

[Luschient]

Every promo he cuts should just be a shrug, followed by him pointing at his dick, giving us the finger and slapping his own ass.

lol, never knew I wanted this until now

I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of millennial Jim Cornettes.

YOU KEEP CORNEY'S GOOD NAME OUT OF THIS!

 

[bean breath]

I like Roman Reigns.

 

[Mahonay]

I like Roman Reigns.

 

[Eidan]

For those who think Reigns is a disaster, I'm curious to hear why you think the company continues to promote him as top talent and have him main event three Wrestlemanias in a row. You think it's just because they're stubborn and will gladly promote a disaster to stick it to a bunch of 30-something year old boys?

 

[Jezbollah]

I like Roman Reigns.

 

[dream]

While we're at it, Daniel Bryan was never that good.

 

[norm9]

All I hope for is him making another mistake and getting suspended a month before coming back to challebge for the US Title at his return.

While we're at it, Daniel Bryan was never that good.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

 

[Mahonay]

Lol this thread.

So many hot takes.

 

[Keyser Soze]

This thread is now shit in the same way the monthly thread is shit

Well done assholes

 

[Ithil]

For those who think Reigns is a disaster, I'm curious to hear why you think the company continues to promote him as top talent and have him main event three Wrestlemanias in a row. You think it's just because they're stubborn and will gladly promote a disaster to stick it to a bunch of 30-something year old boys?

Yes.

Spoiler

 

[Sephzilla]

This thread is now shit in the same way the monthly thread is shit

Well done assholes

The monthly thread is nowhere near this bad.

 

[jmdajr]

CM Punk sucks!

 

[Mahonay]

This thread is now shit in the same way the monthly thread is shit

Well done assholes

Nah son.

 

[Keyser Soze]

The monthly thread is nowhere near this bad.

Nah son.

When you are living in filth, you get used to the smell

 

[Sephzilla]

When you are living in filth, you get used to the smell

You haven't been to the monthly thread in a while, then

 

[Cagey]

YOU KEEP CORNEY'S GOOD NAME OUT OF THIS!

Corney's name has never been good.

 

[bean breath]

I'm someone that never cared for Daniel Bryan as an in-ring performer but I have to say he's really captivating both as SmackDown GM and on Total Divas/Bellas. I'm happy to see him doing well these days.

 

[Zach]

When you are living in filth, you get used to the smell

Filth.