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WSJ: ‘Financially Hobbled for Life’: The Elite Master’s Degrees That Don’t Pay Off

EviLore

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The facial expression of a dude with $300,000 in high-interest grad school student debt for a Columbia MFA in Film:





"
Recent film program graduates of Columbia University who took out federal student loans had a median debt of $181,000.

Yet two years after earning their master’s degrees, half of the borrowers were making less than $30,000 a year.


The Columbia program offers the most extreme example of how elite universities in recent years have awarded thousands of master’s degrees that don’t provide graduates enough early career earnings to begin paying down their federal student loans, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of Education Department data.

Recent Columbia film alumni had the highest debt compared with earnings among graduates of any major university master’s program in the U.S., the Journal found. The New York City university is among the world’s most prestigious schools, and its $11.3 billion endowment ranks it the nation’s eighth wealthiest private school.

For years, faculty, staff and students have appealed unsuccessfully to administrators to tap that wealth to aid more graduate students, according to current and former faculty and administrators, and dozens of students. Taxpayers will be on the hook for whatever is left unpaid.

Lured by the aura of degrees from top-flight institutions, many master’s students at universities across the U.S. took on debt beyond what their pay would support, the Journal analysis of federal data on borrowers found. At Columbia, such students graduated from programs including history, social work and architecture.

Columbia University President Lee Bollinger said the Education Department data in the Journal analysis can’t fully assess salary prospects because it covers only earnings and loan repayments two years after graduation. “Nevertheless,” he said, “this is not what we want it to be.”

At New York University, graduates with a master’s degree in publishing borrowed a median $116,000 and had an annual median income of $42,000 two years after the program, the data on recent borrowers show. At Northwestern University, half of those who earned degrees in speech-language pathology borrowed $148,000 or more, and the graduates had a median income of $60,000 two years later. Graduates of the University of Southern California’s marriage and family counseling program borrowed a median $124,000 and half earned $50,000 or less over the same period.

“NYU is always focused on affordability, and an important part of that is, of course, to help prospective students make informed decisions,” said spokesman John Beckman. Northwestern spokeswoman Hilary Hurd Anyaso said the speech-language pathology program is among the best in the world, leading to a “gratifying career path that is in high demand.” USC spokeswoman Lauren Bartlett said providing students financial support and employment opportunities was a priority for the school.

Undergraduate students for years have faced ballooning loan balances. But now it is graduate students who are accruing the most onerous debt loads. Unlike undergraduate loans, the federal Grad Plus loan program has no fixed limit on how much grad students can borrow—money that can be used for tuition, fees and living expenses.



It has become the fastest-growing federal student loan program and charged interest rates as high as 7.9% in recent years.

The no-limit loans make master’s degrees a gold mine for universities, which have expanded graduate-school offerings since Congress created Grad Plus in 2005. Graduate students are for the first time on track to have borrowed as much as undergraduates in the 2020-21 academic year, federal loan data show.

“There’s always those 2 a.m. panic attacks where you’re thinking, ‘How the hell am I ever going to pay this off?’ ” said 29-year-old Zack Morrison, of New Jersey, who earned a Master of Fine Arts in film from Columbia in 2018 and praised the quality of the program. His graduate school loan balance now stands at nearly $300,000, including accrued interest. He has been earning between $30,000 and $50,000 a year from work as a Hollywood assistant and such side gigs as commercial video production and photography.


Highly selective universities have benefited from free-flowing federal loan money, and with demand for spots far exceeding supply, the schools have been able to raise tuition largely unchecked. The power of legacy branding lets prestigious universities say, in effect, that their degrees are worth whatever they charge.

“Students gravitate to Columbia because Columbia’s Columbia, right?” film professor and writer-director Katherine Dieckmann said in a 10-minute video about the program that the school posted on YouTube in 2019. “It’s a world-class, Ivy League institution with access to all kinds of other departments, other ideas. It’s a world-class university. And the next thing is it’s in New York City. And I think that combination of elements is pretty seductive.”

That was the case for Columbia film MFA student Patrick Clement, who attended community college in California before transferring to the University of Kansas for his bachelor’s degree.

“As a poor kid and a high-school dropout, there was an attraction to getting an Ivy League master’s degree,” said Mr. Clement, 41. He graduated in 2020 from Columbia, borrowing more than $360,000 in federal loans for the degree. He is casting for an independent film, he said. To pay the bills, he teaches film at a community college and runs an antique shop.

Columbia grad students who borrowed money typically held loans that exceeded annual earnings two years after graduation in 14 of the school’s 32 master’s degree programs tracked by the Education Department, the Journal found. In about a dozen Columbia master’s programs, the majority of recent graduates weren’t repaying the principal on their loans or took forbearance, according to data released for the first time this year.

[...]

Whether or not students should have better weighed the personal consequences of borrowing heavily to pursue lower-paying careers, the burden is far-reaching. After 20 to 25 years on an income-dependent payment plan, the balance on Grad Plus loans—roughly $11.2 billion issued in the school year that ended in 2020—can be forgiven. Taxpayers will bear any losses.

At least 43% of the people who recently took out loans for master’s degrees at elite private universities hadn’t paid down any of their original debt or were behind on payments roughly two years after graduation, the available data show.

Universities, which receive their tuition up front, have an economic incentive to expand graduate degree programs and face no consequences if students can’t afford to pay the federal loans after they leave.

“They’re not really held accountable for the myth they’re selling to students,” said Ozan Jaquette, an associate professor of higher education at the University of California, Los Angeles’s Graduate School of Education and Information Studies. His doctoral dissertation was on the growth of master’s programs. “We should not be giving federal-aid dollars to these programs that systematically saddle students with high debt,” he said.

Matt Black graduated from Columbia in 2015 with an MFA in film and $233,000 in federal loans. He signed up for an income-based repayment plan that in leaner years requires no remittance from him. With interest, his balance stands at $331,000.

Mr. Black, a 36-year-old writer and producer in Los Angeles, said he grew up in a lower middle-class family in Oklahoma. He earns $60,000 in a good year and less than half that in dry stretches. The faculty at Columbia was stellar, he said, but he blamed the school for his “calamitous financial situation.”

“We were told by the establishment our whole lives this was the way to jump social classes,” he said of an Ivy League education. Instead, he said he feels such goals as marriage, children and owning a home are out of reach.

During a car ride last year with three friends from the film program, Mr. Black said, they calculated they collectively owed $1.5 million in loans to the federal government. “Financially hobbled for life,” he said. “That’s the joke.”

An offer to attend Columbia is hard for many to pass up. Founded in 1754, the school boasts graduates who became U.S. presidents, Supreme Court justices and stars in the arts, medicine and business.

"
 

CloudNull

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Shit makes me sick. The college system has turned into a scam. I am happy that many of the cutting edge companies are no longer requiring a degree to get a job.

Some degrees are legit but they are completely overpriced especially with the internet being around.
 

Punished Miku

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I read this entire article earlier.

Obviously some of these people are morons. But there are multiple systemic problems at every level that allow something like this to even happen. You could walk into any bank in the country and you could never amass this kind of debt any other way than school. Its a criminal enterprise almost - with a lot morons that fall victim. Then the government makes sure you can't declare bankruptcy. These people won't even get social security.
 
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Bladed Thesis

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Obviously some of these people are morons. But there are multiple systemic problems at every level that allow something like this to even happen.
It's a double edged sword.

Obviously, if the Federal government and lending institutions had power to reject loans for BAD degrees (degrees with little money making opportunity in comparison to loan amount) they would be blasted for bias and shit like that. As far as I know, nobody has ever restricted loan amounts for bullshit degrees like Fine Arts and shit. Maybe they should.

Maybe when you signed up for 300k of loans, you should've been thinking if your job prospects will pay for it. Not everybody takes out 300k in loans for their passion hobbies. Only the dumb people do.
 
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High program costs, an oddly high interest rate (in an era of rock bottom interest rates), and it's pretty obvious the students didnt look at job and income prospects. They probably all thought they'd be hollywood directors making millions.

Just like someone with a car loan or mortgage above their head or giant credit card debt sapping every dollar made make into payments, that's on the person to weigh the financial risk and reward.

Who the fuck would think film school tuition seems more than med school? lol
 
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Fictive

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Making less than %10 of tuition? That’s awful yet this is very common among graduates in certain cities. I know this story all too well. Makes you question if you’re better off sticking to the 9-5 debt free.

Sometimes the bigger question is: Where the fuck is all that money going to? Imagine 1,000 students paying in average 100,000 in tuition fees (both VERY generous figures). Sheesh.
 
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Aesius

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The "technical path" guys in my high school look smarter and smarter everyday. I graduated high school when "just get a degree" wasn't totally laughable advice, and if you didn't go to college, you were viewed as a loser with no future. But now many of those guys have 15 years of experience in the trades and are masters at their craft or running their own businesses and making bank. And with no student loan debt to speak of.
 

Trogdor1123

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Take an expensive degree that pays nothing and they are surprised? Seriously? How is that anyone's fault but theirs?
 

EviLore

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High program costs, an oddly high interest rate (in an era of rock bottom interest rates), and it's pretty obvious the students didnt look at job and income prospects. They probably all thought they'd be hollywood directors making millions.
More or less how Columbia markets the program:


Columbia University School of the Arts offers students the opportunity to go to film school at one of the world's great universities, with a faculty of working professionals esteemed in both Hollywood and the independent film community. Our home is New York City, one of the creative capitals of the world, affording access to exceptional talent pools and locations, major research collections, and the opportunity to see films from every country and era at the many venues dedicated to film culture. Our degree programs are populated by top students from around the world and our curriculum fosters cutting-edge creativity, intellectual rigor and hands-on practicality.



The Film MFA programs—in Screenwriting/Directing and in Creative Producing—are among the world's premiere training grounds for emerging filmmakers. Since the Film MFA at Columbia was introduced in 1966, it has been renowned for the global success of its alumni in film and television, including top prizes at Sundance, Cannes, Venice, Berlin and the Academy Awards.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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Making less than %10 of tuition? That’s awful yet this is very common among graduates in certain cities. I know this story all too well. Makes you question if you’re better off sticking to the 9-5 debt free.

Sometimes the bigger question is: Where the fuck is all that money going to? Imagine 1,000 students paying in average 100,000 in tuition fees (both VERY generous figures). Sheesh.
Its tough. I'd hate to see Universities become only business and STEM. But I think they need to be more upfront about job prospects for other majors. Be like "only major in this if you want to learn"
Makes sense.

Who knows why Columbia has such giant prices vs. expected job income for these arts degrees, when looking at the chart just about every other program there and at other universities seem pretty in line except for a few skewing over one. But as a whole, the rest are pretty manageable.

Probably these fancy programs have real life Hollywood people being teachers and professors amping up the program costs, so the school passes it onto students. No idea, but a possibility. Or simply, there's just so much demand, the school treats admissions granted vs price like it's a gas station and jacks up the price when its peak demand time so time to change the sign. Pure profiteering overriding academic considerations.

Then again, it's on students to pick. Every school posts program costs. So if Columbia arts programs are sky high in the booklet, it's up to students to consider if it's worth doing.

The examples in the article are masters students too. So they know what goes on with college programs. Its not like they are a year one undergrad scrub from high school blindly going in assuming everything shakes out. They should have some brain cells in that 27 year old head when he started the masters degree what the price and consequences are.

But end of the day, thats colleges and universities for ya. You'd think it's helpig students and academia first, but for many it's more about money and churning out sometimes useless pieces of paper. Even if you look at it from a non-school part...... food on site, parking, dorms etc.... youd think the governments would be subsidizing students with cheap shit. Nope. I did university like many and the on site food courts were just as pricey as eating off campus and parking lots were just as expensive too.
 
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Yoshi

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I am a bit worried about responding to this thread, because I feel this is a fundamentally political issue. Cost of education in the US is prohibitively high and though on average garduates earn a lot more money than non graduates, individually, it is a big risk, especially if you do not come from a rich family. This is why I think it is more fair to make education free, but to tax higher income brackets a bit higher to refinance this, so people do not fear higher education when they come from a family without a lot of financial backing. In addition, a good choice of subject of study goes a long way, but a passion for the field is important if you want to excell in it, so I am a bit hard pressed to tell a film student to study computer science instead, because for me it would have been pretty nasty to study film in turn.
 
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Blond

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Its tough. I'd hate to see Universities become only business and STEM. But I think they need to be more upfront about job prospects for other majors. Be like "only major in this if you want to learn"
Science
Technology
Education
Math
Business
Health and Social Services

This should honestly be anything higher education teaches. I’m not a fan of them, but WGU (an online university) only teaches these things but one thing they do with their online programs is constant shift around to changing market demands and don’t offer anything that doesn’t have a high chance of hire and paying well.
 
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Burning Blade

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I received my Masters degree in Occupational Therapy in 2008 at a cost of about $100k. A degree that used to be a bachelors, now a masters, and soon to be a doctorate. There is absolutely no reason for the masters or doctorate, other than easing another semester or more of money from students pockets. I know a new PT grad with over $200k of debt from Columbia. The problem with these therapy degrees is that there are hundreds of applicants for each public school program, but as long as you have the grades and money private school is your only other option.
I live in Northern California so the pay is higher here than say the Midwest, but the cost of living is amongst the highest so it’s a wash. With a family it feels like I’m getting by but that is about it. Healthcare in general is a fucking slog most of the time, even more so during the pandemic. My brother in law who got a bachelors in business from a local state university has revived merit and timed pay increased over the years, my wages have stagnated. Therapists have no real union so no real bargaining power across the board. You negotiate the highest possible amount you can at time of hire because your lucky, and I mean real fucking lucky, to get more than cost of living if that. If I had to do it again I would get a degree from a local state college in something more personally rewarding and then just become an electrician or another trade.
 

EviLore

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And the numbers for a Columbia MFA, if you're curious:






Over $100k/year. Comparable cost of attendance to a Top 10 MBA program, but those MBAs fetch $250k salaries for graduates.

Columbia seems to be taking advantage of students compared to other elite schools. They offer a lot of these ultra-expensive, dubious-value master's degrees.
 

Rival

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Too many people have lived under the lie that they could be anything they want to be for far too long. People paying that much for degrees like this are suckers that believed the lie. For people thinking they are going to go to film school and become the next Spielberg….news flash. You won’t and these institutions have wiped you clean.
 
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Bladed Thesis

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This is why I think it is more fair to make education free, but to tax higher income brackets a bit higher to refinance this, so people do not fear higher education when they come from a family without a lot of financial backing.
"Make education free" combined with "Tax Higher" doesn't mean free. What you meant to type was "i think its more fair if somebody else pays for people to pursue hobby degrees." Can we get free mercedes by taxing a bit higher to "refinance" this. Love the wording too. "Refinance this." Fucking golden.

Also, not all higher education is created equal.
 
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Oct 26, 2018
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Over $100k/year. Comparable cost of attendance to a Top 10 MBA program, but those MBAs fetch $250k salaries for graduates.

Columbia seems to be taking advantage of students compared to other elite schools. They offer a lot of these ultra-expensive, dubious-value master's degrees.
MBA and business jobs are always stable in terms of job prospects and money. And with so many parts of business to go to, there's flexibility which part of business you want to do which helps a lot. My undergrad was marketing, but I have a finance job. Sounds weird, but thats how my career ended up. As a business student, you still got to take some finance courses and I even had to take a sales course, advertising, and retailer courses.

My MBA was even more vague and holistic.

For thing like masters degree in fine arts, its one of those things (as you posted with the video) that IMO skews to the celebrity side of the job market. You're either a broke low end jobber making shit, or you hit it big and be a well known star for Hollywood kind of thing.

For anyone who paid the big bucks but made it big from Columbia (I have no idea which celebs went to Columbia), they probably look back and say it's totally worth it. But by the looks of it, probably most dont be giant successes.

High risk, high reward academic path to take.

Whereas taking STEM or business seem more predictable. It just lacks the star power and fame.
 
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Azurro

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Well, at least it's the own kids having to pay for those ridiculous fees. There are a lot of useless degrees like women's studies, Islamic studies and other social sciences degrees that are a scam and only crank out angry people in YouTube and a few that get hired in HR.
 
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SegaShack

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Science
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Health and Social Services

This should honestly be anything higher education teaches. I’m not a fan of them, but WGU (an online university) only teaches these things but one thing they do with their online programs is constant shift around to changing market demands and don’t offer anything that doesn’t have a high chance of hire and paying well.
WGU is a joke, many coworkers go there and don't learn a thing. They turn in their assignments and tests weeks or months later.

Go to a state school folks.
 
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SegaShack

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I am a bit worried about responding to this thread, because I feel this is a fundamentally political issue. Cost of education in the US is prohibitively high and though on average garduates earn a lot more money than non graduates, individually, it is a big risk, especially if you do not come from a rich family. This is why I think it is more fair to make education free, but to tax higher income brackets a bit higher to refinance this, so people do not fear higher education when they come from a family without a lot of financial backing. In addition, a good choice of subject of study goes a long way, but a passion for the field is important if you want to excell in it, so I am a bit hard pressed to tell a film student to study computer science instead, because for me it would have been pretty nasty to study film in turn.
So you want the average taxpayer to pay for the 300 thousand dollar film degrees of others? How does that benefit society?
 

EviLore

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I want creative people in society to have opportunities to develop their talents, but creative people are often unbelievably bad with money, as we can see here.

The ivy league schools get billions in public funding and convey prestige to the US university system. Mostly they do take care of their students very well, even in the arts programs, so I think it's fair to call out Columbia for trending toward exploitative practices. When it's literally impossible for the vast majority of a program's graduates to ever pay back their loans, taxpayers will end up footing the bill for those loans and the alumni will be stuck with garnished wages and terrible credit for life when they default. Columbia is the only party coming out ahead.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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It has become the fastest-growing federal student loan program and charged interest rates as high as 7.9% in recent years.
I'll be honest. This part stuck out as wildly interesting. How the hell does this program have a 7.9% loan interest rate when interest rates are at record lows, and my university loan interest rates in the 90s were prime + 3-5% (I had a few students loans) so my interest rate at the time probably wasnt much different than his.

I thought all federal student loans to students are at the same rate at that moment of time (year). Guess not and student loan rates are done at the program/faculty level?.
 
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Fictive

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So 22k/9 ... a bit of 2K for housing? The room/boarding accounts for a great deal of financial overhead. The books aren't shit. Smh.
 

StormCell

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I couldn't be a university education counselor (the people who help you decide your major and help you enroll in classes) and in good conscience meet with these students and not warn them. I would be reminding them every quarter/semester of what lies ahead. I would be strongly encouraging them to have a backup plan or a second major that might help them pay off their debts. I would even be recommending trades as a potential fallback should they not make it in hollywood. lol

I would be a proud counselor turning out more skilled welders and crane operators who can act or film than anyone else!
 

Blond

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So you want the average taxpayer to pay for the 300 thousand dollar film degrees of others? How does that benefit society?
State colleges around my area have actually reduced tuitions a ton. I’m doing some classes to finish my IT Bachelor’s degree (I have an associate’s) for 60 bucks a class. You’re already funding the school anyway if you pay taxes.


WGU is a joke, many coworkers go there and don't learn a thing. They turn in their assignments and tests weeks or months later.

Go to a state school folks.

it’s not for everyone. It’s meant for people who want to go back but lead busy lives. I did it, got some credit and would’ve kept going but my city college is 60 dollars a class vs 350, it’s a boo brainier. My friend thrived there though and it was the boost he needed and is actually making 40k above me, to each his own though.
 

EviLore

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I'll be honest. This part stuck out as wildly interesting. How the hell does this program have a 7.9% loan interest rate when interest rates are at record lows, and my university loan interest rates in the 90s were prime + 3-5% (I had a few students loans) so my interest rate at the time probably wasnt much different than his.

I thought all federal student loans to students are at the same rate at that moment of time (year). Guess not and student loan rates are done at the program/faculty level?.
Here's the current interest schedule:




The PLUS loans are a big part of the issue.

For the other federal student loans, there is a cap per year on how much you can borrow, regardless of your cost of attendance. This cap keeps tuition pegged there to an extent, ensuring that students can afford to attend schools after the combination of awards, grants, scholarships, loans, etc.

On the other hand, with PLUS grad school loans:




...as you can see, you can borrow up to whatever the cost of attendance is, without limits. I imagine they had in mind the pricy but lucrative professional degrees of the 2000s, but as a result of PLUS, now you can borrow $250k for a fine arts degree if the school decides to charge that much.
 

Punished Miku

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Here's the current interest schedule:




The PLUS loans are a big part of the issue.

For the other federal student loans, there is a cap per year on how much you can borrow, regardless of your cost of attendance. This cap keeps tuition pegged there to an extent, ensuring that students can afford to attend schools after the combination of awards, grants, scholarships, loans, etc.

On the other hand, with PLUS grad school loans:




...as you can see, you can borrow up to whatever the cost of attendance is, without limits. I imagine they had in mind the pricy but lucrative professional degrees of the 2000s, but as a result of PLUS, now you can borrow $250k for a fine arts degree.
Nevermind. Dont text and drive people,off by lots of zeros
 
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Quasicat

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For an 8 year period, teachers were required in Ohio to get a Master’s degree. Many people left the profession when this went into effect since it would need to be completely out of pocket and the cost didn’t justify it. I was just getting into the education field when this happened and went straight into the Master’s program. I was working at Dannon’s fruit department throughout my undergrad and graduate school to get me to my teaching career. With a Master’s degree, I made less money teaching for 14 years than I would have at a fruit factory. That sucks, but realistically, I knew that would happen and I’m much happier as a teacher.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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Here's the current interest schedule:




The PLUS loans are a big part of the issue.

For the other federal student loans, there is a cap per year on how much you can borrow, regardless of your cost of attendance. This cap keeps tuition pegged there to an extent, ensuring that students can afford to attend schools after the combination of awards, grants, scholarships, loans, etc.

On the other hand, with PLUS grad school loans:




...as you can see, you can borrow up to whatever the cost of attendance is, without limits. I imagine they had in mind the pricy but lucrative professional degrees of the 2000s, but as a result of PLUS, now you can borrow $250k for a fine arts degree if the school decides to charge that much.
Was interested to see what Canada is now vs. what I did 20+ years ago, but it seems to sum up as follows (I skimmed it). When I had loans it was federal and ontario. You'd apply and you'd get some from each.

Federal loan = Prime +2.5%. Prime right now is about 2.5%, so a federal loan is about 5%

Provincial loan = lower than federal (which seems odd, since you'd think the feds would be more generous). Each province is different, but seems to max out at Prime + 2%, with some cheaper and some at 0%. So it looks like it ranges from 0% to about 4.5%, with Newfoundland being an outlier giving free grants of $100/week. I guess after that, you got to go federal

 
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Halo is Dead

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No one should ever get a college degree in any type of Arts program. If you go to college for a degree, AT LEAST let it be a field that has good job prospects and opportunities. Success in an art career rely on connections, talent, drive, and people skills.

With that said, college Tuition rates ESPECIALLY for Grad students are horrible.
 

StormCell

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For an 8 year period, teachers were required in Ohio to get a Master’s degree. Many people left the profession when this went into effect since it would need to be completely out of pocket and the cost didn’t justify it. I was just getting into the education field when this happened and went straight into the Master’s program. I was working at Dannon’s fruit department throughout my undergrad and graduate school to get me to my teaching career. With a Master’s degree, I made less money teaching for 14 years than I would have at a fruit factory. That sucks, but realistically, I knew that would happen and I’m much happier as a teacher.

You have to really have a desire and passion for teaching young people to go that path. Just please don't be an activist. lol

I witnessed the same thing happening in my school's registration department where I worked as an undergrad. They were on the path to replacing our registrar because the position suddenly required a master's degree even though the registrar had been there for a decade. I believe in the interim they allowed her to remain the official registrar and but had split out some job duties for a position requiring the masters. It never made any sense in the first place. The people who made the department function didn't even have college degrees -- they had gone to a vocational school for office and secretarial work.

From my own graduate experience, a masters degree is pointless. Go for the PhD if you're going to invest that much more in time and money.
 

Glockmarksmen

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Reminds me of when I first graduated high school and talked to my counselor. I originally wanted to enter the schools film program and was telling my counselor that my aim was to be the next Christopher Nolan. He damn near laughed in my face and told me that I should be aiming a little lower like a makeup or effects artist. I found that so insulting I actually went to a different school without a film program. Looking back at it bro was really keeping it real with me. I graduated from high school a year early so I had that “I can be anything.” mindset so I didn’t grasp why he was so dismissive of my goals.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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For an 8 year period, teachers were required in Ohio to get a Master’s degree. Many people left the profession when this went into effect since it would need to be completely out of pocket and the cost didn’t justify it. I was just getting into the education field when this happened and went straight into the Master’s program. I was working at Dannon’s fruit department throughout my undergrad and graduate school to get me to my teaching career. With a Master’s degree, I made less money teaching for 14 years than I would have at a fruit factory. That sucks, but realistically, I knew that would happen and I’m much happier as a teacher.
You should had come to Canada and be a teacher. A seasoned teacher makes $100k (and even makes the provincial publicly disclosed government workers list showing all public workers making $100k+). For kicks, I even searched out friends and they show up.

And assuming your work a while as a teacher and retire in good standing etc..... my teacher friends estimate their annual pension will be around $40,000/yr. A lot of government unionized jobs have that old style pension program whereas most private sector people have the other one where you pay into it, the company contributes some and you pray the mutual funds it goes into goes up. And unless it skyrockets, theres no way that kind of pension fund will come close to the government one.
 
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Raven117

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Absolutely disgraceful.

The ability of college to parade around in their letterman's sweaters and harken back to the "good ol days" of nostalgia is completely shielding them from the fact that they are vipers and taking advantage of young people selling them a bill of goods as propped up by the US Government.

I'm not saying loan forgiveness is the answer, but this nonsense has to stop. Universities need to be reeled in. Its getting out of control.
 
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Punished Miku

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Absolutely disgraceful.

The ability of college to parade around in their letterman's sweaters and harken back to the "good ol days" of nostalgia is completely shielding them from the fact that they are vipers and taking advantage of young people selling them a bill of goods as propped up by the US Government.

I'm not saying loan forgiveness is the answer, but this nonsense has to stop. Universities need to be reeled in. Its getting out of control.
NCAA losing was the sneak preview. We have to dismantle the rest of the bloat.
 

Lupingosei

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I'm not saying loan forgiveness is the answer, but this nonsense has to stop. Universities need to be reeled in. Its getting out of control.
Not only universities but also the crazy people in HR who expect a master's degree for everything.

In Switzerland, we have a dual system and trade schools are very well respected and you still have the chance to go to a technical college later. In contrary to many popular beliefs not the banks or cooperations like Nestle are the source of Swiss wealth, but small and middle-sized companies. (KMU) They produce the majority of wealth and also are big players in education through trade schools. Swiss workers are usually always on the top when it comes to professional skills. They usually win gold medals at world-skill events.

You need a robust system. In the US the universities influenced politicians over years to never give trade schools a good chance and also pushed the idea into HR people, that you need a degree for everything. BTW Elon Musk may break this cycle because he actively advised his HR people to look for real-world experience, not theoretical experience.
 

Raven117

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Not only universities but also the crazy people in HR who expect a master's degree for everything.

In Switzerland, we have a dual system and trade schools are very well respected and you still have the chance to go to a technical college later. In contrary to many popular beliefs not the banks or cooperations like Nestle are the source of Swiss wealth, but small and middle-sized companies. (KMU) They produce the majority of wealth and also are big players in education through trade schools. Swiss workers are usually always on the top when it comes to professional skills. They usually win gold medals at world-skill events.

You need a robust system. In the US the universities influenced politicians over years to never give trade schools a good chance and also pushed the idea into HR people, that you need a degree for everything. BTW Elon Musk may break this cycle because he actively advised his HR people to look for real-world experience, not theoretical experience.
Totally this. The colleges sold it that trade schools were beneath them… (but damn, skilled tradesman are not only super talented, but also make way more than that “master of fine arts from Columbia”.

They sold the dream but worse, with the us government just pumping money into them through students who just wanted a better life (and can’t discharge in bankruptcy) is just absolutely terrible.
 
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Quasicat

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You have to really have a desire and passion for teaching young people to go that path. Just please don't be an activist. lol

I am very fortunate that my district’s community is very conservative. With that being said, the staff are split roughly 50/50 when it comes to political views. I do teach American History, so there may be aspects of that changing depending on how the state legislature goes.
 
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Lupingosei

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They sold the dream but worse, with the us government just pumping money into them through students who just wanted a better life (and can’t discharge in bankruptcy) is just absolutely terrible.
That turns into a political discussion, but of course. If you promise people who are in debt so much, that they may lose their debt if they vote for you and you rattle those keys every election in front of them, it keeps the system alive.
 
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nush

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A long haul flight from wherever you are.
The hubris of "higher" learning.



It's true I've interviewed to hire staff for entry level positions and there was an amount of people that I interviewed that had the attitude "I've got a degree, give me the job". Joke was on them really as almost all people I interviewed had a degree and no experience so there was no advantage for them having one. I used to just hire off personality and attitude anyway, couldnt care less about thier degree for an entry level job. Worked out fine as to date I've never made a bad hire.