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WSJ: ‘Financially Hobbled for Life’: The Elite Master’s Degrees That Don’t Pay Off

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Deleted member 17706

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Was just reading about this idea of elite overproduction and how it can lead to social instability and potentially disaster.


The college degree/accreditation and student loan system really do have a lot to answer for. Way too many people going to college who have no business doing so (in that there is no way it makes sense economically) and stunting the trajectory and potential of their adult life.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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Was just reading about this idea of elite overproduction and how it can lead to social instability and potentially disaster.


The college degree/accreditation and student loan system really do have a lot to answer for. Way too many people going to college who have no business doing so (in that there is no way it makes sense economically) and stunting the trajectory and potential of their adult life.
MBAs are a dime a dozen. I have one myself from the early 2000s, but its more old school as you had to show up for class and get into groups. Ya, the internet was around and you email and stuff, but it was more hands on. Nobody had cellphones with text messaging, there was no online conference calls etc.... Now with online learning, you now get internet based grad degrees where schools just churn out masters students at triple the undergrad tuition rate. And if they are an international student, it's probably 4x the domestic student rate.

All one big money grab.

Also, for those of you thinking about MBA school, guess what? If you can afford it and lead to a good job do it.

YOU CANT FAIL AS LONG AS YOU SHOW UP AND DO YOUR BEST. It not like undergrad where some of you in tough science or math courses can flunk. They want your money every semester and want you to give them a good rep score. So best way to do that is automatically pass 99% of students. Just show up, submit your work, get your C+ bottom of the barrel bell curve mark and you'll get the MBA.

Grad school programs are bell curved, so even if you are a moron, you'll still pass and get a C or B-. My grad school was bell curved to a B+. They even publicly stated that in the program booklet. Only way to fail is if you literally just dont show up and do tests and cases.

Back then student scores were still posted on a sheet of paper outside the profs office. You look for your student number and see your mark.

Well look at that. Every student number has a C+ to A score with most being B, B+ and A-. A couple Cs and As, but as I said B+ bell curve.

So no shame. They even publicly state it and prove it with test score recaps we all saw after every test.

As weird as it seems, the GMAT test to get in was harder than the MBA course. GMATs are like a 3 hour test that tests your math, reading, logic and essay writing. You get a score out of 800 (I"m assuming it's still that way), and the higher the score the better your chances. I think I got 600 which is so-so. Got me in 20 years ago. Might not get me in now. Did well on the math parts, didnt do great on the verbal/text part.

And if your GMAT score sucks, you cant retake it for a set amount of time.
 
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CrankyJay™

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I am a bit worried about responding to this thread, because I feel this is a fundamentally political issue. Cost of education in the US is prohibitively high and though on average garduates earn a lot more money than non graduates, individually, it is a big risk, especially if you do not come from a rich family. This is why I think it is more fair to make education free, but to tax higher income brackets a bit higher to refinance this, so people do not fear higher education when they come from a family without a lot of financial backing. In addition, a good choice of subject of study goes a long way, but a passion for the field is important if you want to excell in it, so I am a bit hard pressed to tell a film student to study computer science instead, because for me it would have been pretty nasty to study film in turn.
Not really. It’s mostly a greed issue by academic institutions. It’s like they let in some guy like Brad from Mythic Quest come in and try to drain every last penny from unsuspecting rubes.
 
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Not really. It’s mostly a greed issue by academic institutions. It’s like they let in some guy like Brad from Mythic Quest come in and try to drain every last penny from unsuspecting rubes.
Never heard of this and googled it. Too bad I dont have Apple TV. The premise of the show and Brad character sounds hilarious.
 

jason10mm

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I remember the days when the plot of EVERY teen focused film was to get a scholarship in order to afford school. No one just took out loans to do it, that was insanity!

Ivy league schools are for the wealthy, the extremely talented (on scholarship) and foreign kids. No one should be taking on loans to go there unless you are a girl trying to land some trust fund dude :p
 

godhandiscen

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I want creative people in society to have opportunities to develop their talents, but creative people are often unbelievably bad with money, as we can see here.

The ivy league schools get billions in public funding and convey prestige to the US university system. Mostly they do take care of their students very well, even in the arts programs, so I think it's fair to call out Columbia for trending toward exploitative practices. When it's literally impossible for the vast majority of a program's graduates to ever pay back their loans, taxpayers will end up footing the bill for those loans and the alumni will be stuck with garnished wages and terrible credit for life when they default. Columbia is the only party coming out ahead.
Creative people nowadays have every tool at their disposal to learn the trade they are interested by themselves. For example, Youtube is full of amazing indie filmmakers who have never attended film school. Universities serve better as networking hubs, but even that benefit has been hampered with online classes and less interaction with professors.

Universities are necessary for careers such as law and medicine which require a proper accreditation in order to practice and also for specific engineering careers for which you need particular lab equipment to gain experience. However, for everything else they are one of the biggest ponzi schemes in America, and I am glad that people are waking up to the flaws of these institutions.
 
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mcjmetroid

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I made bad college choices but then I live in Ireland where it's not that expensive and has plenty of schemes to help you.

Still though I think it's very easy to say these people are stupid who select stupid courses. For myself I had nobody to guide me through what to select in college. None of my family went to college, career guidance classes in schools were beyond useless and when you're young you select what you're interested in hobbywise.

If I could do it all again... Boy I would do it differently.
 

godhandiscen

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Was just reading about this idea of elite overproduction and how it can lead to social instability and potentially disaster.


The college degree/accreditation and student loan system really do have a lot to answer for. Way too many people going to college who have no business doing so (in that there is no way it makes sense economically) and stunting the trajectory and potential of their adult life.
Excellent argument dude. Where did you run into this concept?
 
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Locutus

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The cost of higher education is a serious problem and desperately needs reform, but if you are stupid enough to take out $300,000 in loans for a theater degree I don't feel sorry for you. One of the guys in the article was 40 years old and racked up $300,000 on a film degree. What a dumbass.
 

CloudNull

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I made bad college choices but then I live in Ireland where it's not that expensive and has plenty of schemes to help you.

Still though I think it's very easy to say these people are stupid who select stupid courses. For myself I had nobody to guide me through what to select in college. None of my family went to college, career guidance classes in schools were beyond useless and when you're young you select what you're interested in hobbywise.

If I could do it all again... Boy I would do it differently.
I feel you.... my first attempt at school was a shit for profit program for game design. Luckily I bowed out after the first semester and did some soul searching for a few years. I could have easily gotten over my head in debt because the program was super expensive.

It’s hard to figure the college thing out without anyone guiding you. I feel it’s intentionally designed this way.... easier to get young people to go along with stuff they don’t really understand.
 
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The cost of higher education is a serious problem and desperately needs reform, but if you are stupid enough to take out $300,000 in loans for a theater degree I don't feel sorry for you. One of the guys in the article was 40 years old and racked up $300,000 on a film degree. What a dumbass.
He's in med school territory. Who knew a film & arts degree would be that much. lol
 
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Excellent argument dude. Where did you run into this concept?
That small wiki article is a good topic. And it makes sense as every society still has a pecking order of needs to keep the economy running.

A country that is 90% doctors sounds like they got the smartest IQ population in the world, but in society/functionality would be a train wreck because you only need so many doctors. Most of them would be unemployed.

The problem with academics and people striving for higher education is that too many seem funneled to shit programs. They have this old school thinking that as long as you have a piece of paper it's party time because every article says the typical college grad makes more money than a blue collar guy, and a blue collar accredited job makes more than a high school only grad.

Holistically, it makes sense. But dig into details and the STEM, medical, business, and law rat racers are probably doing pretty well. While the liberal arts guy who majored in Ancient Greek History has low prospects for a good job unless he can pull off maybe a government job that pays well with good benefits. But private sector wise, he's toast and a good part of the high paying private jobs he's not going to be considered for. His academic choice just limited him or herself to a small industry of jobs.

Another issue I have never seen anyone analyze is for all the people who claim to have a decent degree but still working at Burger King at 38 years old, the assumption is they cant get a job because the job market sucks. Says who? Millions of others scored a job. Why cant they? Maybe they cant get a decent job in their field because they've got a shit resume, dont make an effort to get a good job scouring job boards every day, and worst of all they're shit at interviews.

There's this asshole mentality that if you got a piece of paper in your hands, you are entilted to get a good paying job no matter what. And if they're failure, its everyone else fault or a bad economy.

Elite overproduction is a concept developed by Peter Turchin, which describes the condition of a society which is producing too many potential elite-members relative to its ability to absorb them into the power structure.[1][2][3] This, he hypothesizes, is a cause for social instability, as those left out of power feel aggrieved by their relatively low status.[1][2][3] Turchin said that this situation explained social disturbances during the late Roman empire and the French Wars of Religion, and predicted that this situation would cause social unrest in the US during the 2020s.[4]

Elite overproduction has been cited as a root cause of some political tension in the US, as structural racism and other injustices are invoked to explain why so many well-educated Millennials are underemployed or otherwise not achieving the status that the narrative of a meritocracy taught them was the expected outcome.[4]
 

godhandiscen

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That small wiki article is a good topic. And it makes sense as every society still has a pecking order of needs to keep the economy running.

A country that is 90% doctors sounds like they got the smartest IQ population in the world, but in society/functionality would be a train wreck because you only need so many doctors. Most of them would be unemployed.

The problem with academics and people striving for higher education is that too many seem funneled to shit programs. They have this old school thinking that as long as you have a piece of paper it's party time because every article says the typical college grad makes more money than a blue collar guy, and a blue collar accredited job makes more than a high school only grad.

Holistically, it makes sense. But dig into details and the STEM, medical, business, and law rat racers are probably doing pretty well. While the liberal arts guy who majored in Ancient Greek History has low prospects for a good job unless he can pull off maybe a government job that pays well with good benefits. But private sector wise, he's toast and a good part of the high paying private jobs he's not going to be considered for. His academic choice just limited him or herself to a small industry of jobs.

Another issue I have never seen anyone analyze is for all the people who claim to have a decent degree but still working at Burger King at 38 years old, the assumption is they cant get a job because the job market sucks. Says who? Millions of others scored a job. Why cant they? Maybe they cant get a decent job in their field because they've got a shit resume, dont make an effort to get a good job scouring job boards every day, and worst of all they're shit at interviews.

There's this asshole mentality that if you got a piece of paper in your hands, you are entilted to get a good paying job no matter what. And if they're failure, its everyone else fault or a bad economy.

I ran the concept by a friend who told me that overproduction of the elite is also explained by the decreasing standard of education. Since the students are less skilled, the courses of study are less rigorous and mostly useless. Ultimately producing a lot of low skilled individuals who consider themselves entitled because of their elite education. For example, the University of California is no longer using SATs for admission and a lot of schools are talking about not giving grades.

This overproduction of the elite eventually leads to another social phenomena called circulation of the elite, in which the disenfranchised elite tries to remove the current elite from power; sort of like what we are seeing in America to a degree.

 
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Ozzy Onya A2Z

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Absolute trash. Sadly the Australian "higher" education system has been following suit. I quit university after 6 months when I realised they wouldn't just let me take the final 2 years test for touch typing in a programming course. Get fucked, you're gonna try and make me sit 2 years of touch typing when I already exceeded the final exam requirements on day one.

I never looked back and never cared about structured higher learning ever since. If you want to be a doctor or something I understand the requirements but Fine Arts? Really? Go loan $200K and spend the next couple of years making movies yourself.

I have no desire to push my kids into such a scam industry. I'd rather assist them with property investing or starting a business/trade of their own and live the good life earning plenty with far less long term hours worked. All without accruing crippling debt. What a scam that industry has become. Just learn on your own or with online courses at a fraction of the price but the same core material. Alumni be damned.
 
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I ran the concept by a friend who told me that overproduction of the elite is also explained by the decreasing standard of education. Since the students are less skilled, the courses of study are less rigorous and mostly useless. Ultimately producing a lot of low skilled individuals who consider themselves entitled because of their elite education. For example, the University of California is no longer using SATs for admission and a lot of schools are talking about not giving grades.

This overproduction of the elite eventually leads to another social phenomena called circulation of the elite, in which the disenfranchised elite tries to remove the current elite from power; sort of like what we are seeing in America to a degree.

I believe that.

I have a couple nieces in grade school (middle school and high school). My bro (their dad) and I would ask them years ago what it's like in class when they were a bit younger.

We laughed how easy the material is. The stuff they learned in grade 5-6 was stuff we learned in 3-4. We couldn't believe how retarded math class was described to us. They were still doing multiplication tables and basic fractions math years after we had to memorize them back in the 80s. And we had to slog through it with pages of pencil and paper as opposed to now where kids get laptops and can type and save work on file.

Kids now seem more sophisticated being able to handle tech, so you'd think if anything, the subject material would be harder, but some reason it seems easier.

And there's much touchy feely stuff like anti-discrimination and political kinds of topics instead core reading, writing, math.

I'm not sure exactly when, but in Ontario kids in grades K-8 cant even fail anymore. I think this was instituted maybe some time in the 2000s. So even f a kids doesnt even show up to class all year and the teacher wants to give the kid fail grades, all the parents have to say is they want their kid to advance to the next grade and the school has to allow it even though the kid could dumb as rocks and not learned a thing all year.

A joke. But thats what you get with numb nut parents and education boards with zero balls.
 
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Taxexemption

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No one should ever get a college degree in any type of Arts program. If you go to college for a degree, AT LEAST let it be a field that has good job prospects and opportunities. Success in an art career rely on connections, talent, drive, and people skills.

With that said, college Tuition rates ESPECIALLY for Grad students are horrible.

I'm going to have to disagree. The problem isn't people getting degrees in arts, it's that the cost of the degree has no relation to its value. Most forms of art you learn a lot by viewing and studying it on your own time, in many cases you would learn about as much by doing that as you would by going to university.


If what you are getting in an art class is literally a teacher looking at your specific techniques and telling you how it could be better, it's probably money well spent. In most cases it's listening to a lecture that could be pre-recorded, and the student would gain just as much.


I think there should be a requirement that the loans cannot exceed a certain percentage of the average income of the student that graduates the program. If you made such a requirement, colleges would find a way to offer these classes a lot cheaper, and would probably attempt to offer them to more students in an attempt to make up for any lost income.
 

Ozzy Onya A2Z

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I believe that.

I have a couple nieces in grade school (middle school and high school). My bro (their dad) and I would ask them years ago what it's like in class when they were a bit younger.

We laughed how easy the material is. The stuff they learned in grade 5-6 was stuff we learned in 3-4. We couldn't believe how retarded math class was described to us. They were still doing multiplication tables and basic fractions math years after we had to memorize them back in the 80s. And we had to slog through it with pages of pencil and paper as opposed to now where kids get laptops and can type and save work on file.

Kids now seem more sophisticated being able to handle tech, so you'd think if anything, the subject material would be harder, but some reason it seems easier.

And there's much touchy feely stuff like anti-discrimination and political kinds of topics instead core reading, writing, math.

I'm not sure exactly when, but in Ontario kids in grades K-8 cant even fail anymore. I think this was instituted maybe some time in the 2000s. So even f a kids doesnt even show up to class all year and the teacher wants to give the kid fail grades, all the parents have to say is they want their kid to advance to the next grade and the school has to allow it even though the kid could dumb as rocks and not learned a thing all year.

A joke. But thats what you get with numb nut parents and education boards with zero balls.

Spot on truth.
 

PSYGN

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One doesn't need a degree to understand great art from bad art.

So what makes these artists chase after a $150,000 piece of paper that says fuckall?
 

Halo is Dead

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I'm going to have to disagree. The problem isn't people getting degrees in arts, it's that the cost of the degree has no relation to its value. Most forms of art you learn a lot by viewing and studying it on your own time, in many cases you would learn about as much by doing that as you would by going to university.


If what you are getting in an art class is literally a teacher looking at your specific techniques and telling you how it could be better, it's probably money well spent. In most cases it's listening to a lecture that could be pre-recorded, and the student would gain just as much.


I think there should be a requirement that the loans cannot exceed a certain percentage of the average income of the student that graduates the program. If you made such a requirement, colleges would find a way to offer these classes a lot cheaper, and would probably attempt to offer them to more students in an attempt to make up for any lost income.
Yea that is exactly what I meant when I made that comment. The degree costs way too much for the value in return, hence why I said you should seek a more stable career or one that will return on your investment in education.
 
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HoodWinked

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These seem like they kind of exist for the super rich to drop thier kids off so they have something to do.

It's a useless degree in practically but in terms of recognition, and prestige would be something they could brag about.

But the cost of these degrees are distorted because government intervention into providing loans but for this particular degree it's probably also being propped up by the super rich.
 
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LordCBH

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Shouldn’t have gone for a worthless degree then. Maybe should’ve gone for one with actual purpose.
 

Pagusas

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I’d just like to say I have a MFA in Film (mass comms & cinematography) like the story referenced and have made an amazing career out of it. The degree more than paid off right away. But I didn’t spend near that amount on it, and the student loans I did have were super low interest. I don’t know how these people managed to spend so much money on this stuff.
 

EviLore

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300k+ for a film degree?
Might as well be for philosophy.
Philosophy majors actually do very well, whether they end up getting further education or not. The field attracts high IQ students.


But philosophy majors also have some of the highest scores in the LSAT and GMAT — the required tests for entry to law and business school respectively, according to figures from the Educational Testing Service (ETS). And when it comes to earnings for people who only have undergraduate degrees, philosophy majors have the fourth-highest median earnings, $81,200 per year, out-ranking business and chemistry majors, according to the ETS. Bar none, philosophy majors have the highest salary growth trajectory from entry to mid-career.
 

godhandiscen

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I’d just like to say I have a MFA in Film (mass comms & cinematography) like the story referenced and have made an amazing career out of it. The degree more than paid off right away. But I didn’t spend near that amount on it, and the student loans I did have were super low interest. I don’t know how these people managed to spend so much money on this stuff.
What helped you make a breakthrough? Was it the degree weight, a project that impressed individuals, good networking, or something else? Obviously, it is anecdotal evidence, but what is your experience?
 
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Pagusas

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What helped you make a breakthrough? Was it the degree weight, a project that impressed individuals, good networking, or something else? Obviously, it is anecdotal evidence, but what is your experience?
All of the above!

1. I did internships, I went to major cities during the summer and worked on films/worked with agencies/worked with independent film makers. I used all the free resources the school gave me to make connections and build up a network. I see so many people
Ignore all the tools their universities have. Seriously people, go talk to the university staff, make friends with them, learn all the opportunities and tools they have access to and USE THEM. You are literally paying for this stuff.

2. I cared about what I was doing, why I was doing it and had a fair idea how I’d make good money from it. I knew quickly I didn’t want to go the Hollywood route (too much competition and not my cup of tea) I wanted to go the marketing agency/corporate media route where I could have autonomy and run a whole sub department in marketing.

3. I built a great portfolio and made sure every professor knew my name, so when I got my BFA they were all willing to stand up for me to get scholarships/stipens to do more with the school.

4. I took my time in my career early, didn’t expect to make tripple digits out of the gate and instead took a modest salary at a place that would treat me well and let me grow, and used that time to generate a name for myself through the US market. Then once I knew I had everything I needed (5 years into my career) I made a big jump to a new city and company to get the major pay increase and title I had been working on.

5. I always had 2 income streams - one from my salaries work and one from freelance/contract work. I never have put all my eggs into one basket. That’s important for creative fields as they can be volitile and easy to cut in the corporate world when the economy goes down, so protecting yourself with multiple income streams and good budging can save your butt and free you of a lot of stresses.
 
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The issue here is simple. Student loans are administered by the government. Colleges set tuition.

So basically, colleges can set tuition to some insane value. Student borrows from the government and pays the college. The college gets to keep all the money even if the student defaults on their debt because they owe the government, not the college.

This is a classic example of privatize profits, socialize losses. The colleges couldn't give less of a fuck how much students owe, because it's not their problem. It's the government's problem.

Want to solve the issue of tuition costs tomorrow? Simple. Make the colleges the loan originator, make the college the entity that is fucked if students can't or won't repay. The government don't need to be loaning shit. The problem will be solved overnight when colleges are worried about their own money every time a student wants to take out a loan.
 
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D

Deleted member 17706

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The issue here is simple. Student loans are administered by the government. Colleges set tuition.

So basically, colleges can set tuition to some insane value. Student borrows from the government and pays the college. The college gets to keep all the money even if the student defaults on their debt because they owe the government, not the college.

This is a classic example of privatize profits, socialize losses. The colleges couldn't give less of a fuck how much students owe, because it's not their problem. It's the government's problem.

Want to solve the issue of tuition costs tomorrow? Simple. Make the colleges the loan originator, make the college the entity that is fucked if students can't or won't repay. The government don't need to be loaning shit. The problem will be solved overnight when colleges are worried about their own money every time a student wants to take out a loan.

Yep, the incentives are all wrong. It's in a college's interest to focus on staffing up on marketing and administrative staff to attract new customers and keep them happy rather than actually give them a good education that will be valuable.
 
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BigBooper

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Must revamp the federal student loan system. Go talk to a regular bank about getting a loan for $300k for a film degree and see what happens. It's absurd. There shouldn't even be a federal student loans available except for extremely high demand jobs. Make the debt the same as other bankruptcy vulnerable debt.
 

SegaShack

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State colleges around my area have actually reduced tuitions a ton. I’m doing some classes to finish my IT Bachelor’s degree (I have an associate’s) for 60 bucks a class. You’re already funding the school anyway if you pay taxes.




it’s not for everyone. It’s meant for people who want to go back but lead busy lives. I did it, got some credit and would’ve kept going but my city college is 60 dollars a class vs 350, it’s a boo brainier. My friend thrived there though and it was the boost he needed and is actually making 40k above me, to each his own though.
State schools are great, good for you, thats the way to go.

As for WGU, they will go the way of Devry, ITT Tech, and University of Phoenix, all pay to win schools with zero educational value.
 
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Must revamp the federal student loan system. Go talk to a regular bank about getting a loan for $300k for a film degree and see what happens. It's absurd. There shouldn't even be a federal student loans available except for extremely high demand jobs. Make the debt the same as other bankruptcy vulnerable debt.
I agree to an extent.

But the push back would be that you got to give high school grads a chance to go to college/university, so you got to give them a break and front them money because at that time they have no job or at best a crappy PT job. They wont even have a credit card yet or anything so they wouldnt even have a credit rating. Short term financial risk. Long run it helps fuel people's career goals. And hope most people pay it back long term.

But for guys like the film student in the hole $300k, thats different. He knows how it works by then. So being allowed to keep it going is insane.

That's like being broke or making shit money and a bank keeps approving you another mortgage. Or a credit card company knowing someone is barely making it and sends them mail saying their CC limit just got doubled.

Looking for and asking for trouble.

As others said, the whole college tuition vs. federally back loans is a view I've never thought of before. I agree that if colleges were held to the risk sapping their own coffers it would be much different.

When it's someone else's money, it's easy to brush it off. When it's your money it's a different ballgame.
 
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Paltheos

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Everyone's sort of run in their own direction with anecdotes... so I thought I'll do the same!

Back when I went to school, my state's board of accountancy required 120 credits of higher education learning in order to sit for the CPA exam and become licensed. Fast-forward to today - You now need 150, a number that's been standardized across all US states and territories. This was actually an idea being advanced then and many states had already transitioned. I asked my dean about this; the explanation I received is that accounting professionals needed to be better equipped to dealing with demands in a rapidly evolving world, and more time in the classroom was deemed to be the solution.

The particulars however paint a somewhat different picture. I qualify under the 150 hour rule to become licensed as a CPA (I'm actually studying now and have already passed FAR). I got only a bachelor's degree though, under a 120 hour program. All the accounting and business courses I took under that program satisfy the state requirements. No graduate courses needed. The only difference is a raw number, which I filled only because I switched majors mid-school and those older courses satisfy the simple requirement of the board of being higher education. The reverse very much could have happened though - Of just shooting for a bachelor's from the start and filling in my transcript with miscellaneous (cheap) crap to fill what in my opinion is a lousy requirement. I ran into a few people in one thread in r/cpa just a few weeks ago who said they did just that, actually.

It's an interesting situation. I've complained to my family and friends before that the number was upped just as a means of gatekeeping (ironic considering the profession now is apparently seeing a problem of retention of young talent down the pipeline, if accounting news sites are to be believed). I can't practically see it as anything other than that. Afaik, states have the leeway to set their own requirements inside that boundary, and undergrad-only accounting courses with a 150 total minimum is what my place of residence has chosen. I live in New York though, one of the biggest states in the country for accounting. I don't know, there's a part of my brain that tells me this situation could just as easily have been given birth by a well-meaning council of old men whose idea was then hammered down into the useless anchor it is today through compromise. I shouldn't really qualify, if the stated intent is true.

What the boards should really do is commit all the way. If they really want more qualified professionals, require graduate accounting courses. Fuck, I was talking about all this with my friend who's a professional pharmacist and their boards don't hold back. If this is some dumb scheme to siphon more money out of kids, then just fuck off and lower the requirements.
 
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bender

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He should go back to college and just keep racking up degrees and student loan debt. It's a foolproof plan.
 
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BigBooper

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I agree to an extent.

But the push back would be that you got to give high school grads a chance to go to college/university, so you got to give them a break and front them money because at that time they have no job or at best a crappy PT job. They wont even have a credit card yet or anything so they wouldnt even have a credit rating. Short term financial risk. Long run it helps fuel people's career goals. And hope most people pay it back long term.

But for guys like the film student in the hole $300k, thats different. He knows how it works by then. So being allowed to keep it going is insane.

That's like being broke or making shit money and a bank keeps approving you another mortgage. Or a credit card company knowing someone is barely making it and sends them mail saying their CC limit just got doubled.

Looking for and asking for trouble.

As others said, the whole college tuition vs. federally back loans is a view I've never thought of before. I agree that if colleges were held to the risk sapping their own coffers it would be much different.

When it's someone else's money, it's easy to brush it off. When it's your money it's a different ballgame.
My stance if from the belief that most people who are going to college do not need to be.
 

INC

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American health care and education system, is just another way of keeping the poor under a boot, crazy the cost
 
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p_xavier

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I had 121k$ in student loans after I was done with my Ph.D. Mind you I was working full time during all of my studies. Still 37k$ to go... At least I have a high paying job.
 

Bitmap Frogs

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These seem like they kind of exist for the super rich to drop thier kids off so they have something to do.

It's a useless degree in practically but in terms of recognition, and prestige would be something they could brag about.

But the cost of these degrees are distorted because government intervention into providing loans but for this particular degree it's probably also being propped up by the super rich.

That’s exactly what it’s happening - these exist for people who can afford them.

The problem would be easily fixable by charging back to schools the debt their students left unpaid. They need to be responsible because the issue is they’re legally irresponsible.
 
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A masters in Fine Arts?

You get what you deserve if you make horrible choices like this. What on earth did they expect?

I disagree with this.

I went through the whole trajection and frankly schools tell you whatever u wanna hear. Lots of those kids will never see the reality because they are shielded from it. Parents have no clue they just see "university degree = good money" good job kid.

Schools will tell you anything and guess what jobs and reality those kids sniff up on? loans so they are again shielded from the world so they are easily manipulable.

I was at my university for example where a the first week they would tell you what u make and how much you make, well guess what i had a internship one of the few that sat there that ever did one. and that internship i knew a guy that recruited people from this university all day long for the biggest company's in my country. it wasn't even half of what this clown stated. I even called him in the class itself on speaker to ask him how much you made. And i got booted off it the next day for all kinds of bullshit reasons.

People are pushed into debt and tehy manipulate kids doing so heavily because it makes them bank. I know tons of people in my friend circle that have huge issue's getting rid of there debt because there education is bullshit. Hell i know 40+ year old people that live with there parents still because of it. They got completely fucked because they married a chick or a guy that also has the same issue's.
 
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TheDreadLord

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Tbh, a lot of people enrolled into masters and phds are there just because they couldn't find job after graduating. "Studying" has become a profession for many and the education system knows that and it is taking advantage of it.
 
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jason10mm

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American health care and education system, is just another way of keeping the poor under a boot, crazy the cost
At least in America the poor kids get the chance to go.

What is missing in this discussion is that the missing element in this list:
1. Take out big loans for degree
2.????
3. Profit!!!!

Is HUSTLE. These poor kids need to be scavenging for any grant or scholarship they can get, working a side job or taking semesters off to earn money, and keep their expenses as low as possible instead of engaging in that luxurious college lifestyle.

Then again, look at all the randos making bank on YouTube, twitch, IG, and onlyfans. These girls USED to have to be classically trained ballerinas in order to make money dancing but now any thot can shake her butt for $$$. Progress?!?!?
 

INC

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At least in America the poor kids get the chance to go.

What is missing in this discussion is that the missing element in this list:
1. Take out big loans for degree
2.????
3. Profit!!!!

Is HUSTLE. These poor kids need to be scavenging for any grant or scholarship they can get, working a side job or taking semesters off to earn money, and keep their expenses as low as possible instead of engaging in that luxurious college lifestyle.

Then again, look at all the randos making bank on YouTube, twitch, IG, and onlyfans. These girls USED to have to be classically trained ballerinas in order to make money dancing but now any thot can shake her butt for $$$. Progress?!?!?

Being America, I'm gonna guess that GUNS is the missing word
 

AJUMP23

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When you go to school to get a degree you need to look at it as an investment. What will be the return if I put X in and when can I expect to see returns and profits. I wanted to go into medicine, but when my parents told me they could not pay for college anymore I shifted to engineering. Cost a lot less money and time. I also just finished my masters and paid cash ($18000) for it. It will allow me the negotiate for a greater salary.
 

Toots

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Butt-chin boy looks pretty vacant on that wsj cover :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Thanks EviLore EviLore for breaking it down in a way even i can understand (that income / debt chart omg... and 6% interest on hundred thousands of $ loans to dudes with no direct income... only in America). There is something utterly wrong with enabling the kind of lies Columbia peddles. The students should be able to sue the Uni if the degree turns out to be completely useless. But i guess it's difficult to determine if it's the degree or the student who is at fault.

Columbia University School of the Arts offers students the opportunity to go to film school at one of the world's great universities, with a faculty of working professionals esteemed in both Hollywood and the independent film community. Our home is New York City, one of the creative capitals of the world, affording access to exceptional talent pools and locations, major research collections, and the opportunity to see films from every country and era at the many venues dedicated to film culture. Our degree programs are populated by top students from around the world and our curriculum fosters cutting-edge creativity, intellectual rigor and hands-on practicality.
So half their argument is "you'll be in NYC where things happen", but not in the school per say...
And "you'll be able to watch movies from everywhere and every era", movies you couldn't watch anywhere else, except if you're one of those fortunate enough to have an internet connection.

After the wsj piece, they could add "Our degree programs are populated by top students from around the world, as seen in the WSJ"

In France, the only friends i knew with student debt were the private business school dudes, but they knew that they would make shitload of money fresh out of school, even as interns so there was no real gamble.
 

Aesius

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I empathize with kids in the creative fields. Not everyone is wired to be an engineer or programmer. Or even a blue-collar worker. But the barrier to entry to many creative professions is extremely high, so I understand why these overpriced degrees from "name" universities have some appeal. Kids think that they'll make enough connections to be successful and that the degree will be worth the money. Plus, it's also about being in the right place. Getting an MFA in Bumfuck, Indiana, is even less likely to lead to success than getting one in NYC or CA, even if you can get it for 1/4th of the price (or less).

If you've got a brain that's wired for STEM, consider yourself lucky.
 
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Oct 26, 2018
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I empathize with kids in the creative fields. Not everyone is wired to be an engineer or programmer. Or even a blue-collar worker. But the barrier to entry to many creative professions is extremely high, so I understand why these overpriced degrees from "name" universities have some appeal. Kids think that they'll make enough connections to be successful and that the degree will be worth the money. Plus, it's also about being in the right place. Getting an MFA in Bumfuck, Indiana, is even less likely to lead to success than getting one in NYC or CA, even if you can get it for 1/4th of the price (or less).

If you've got a brain that's wired for STEM, consider yourself lucky.
Yup.

Anything heavy into numbers and analysis will always be a valuable job.

I work in an office doing finance and am surrounded by every other function from sales to marketing to HR.

Anyone out there who thinks all office bums are spreadsheet robots is dead wrong. Finance loves it (me), demand planning/supply chain semi-love large data sets, anyone associated with IT and servers loves techie stuff.

All other departments hate and have trouble with data sets and spreadsheets. They avoid it like the plague. But to run a company you need a combo of creative, numbers nerds and blue collar guys handling the shipping and manufacturing.

But for fine arts and film students, the pie size for number of jobs and number of high paying jobs must be incredibly small. But on the plus side, it's media related. It has flexibility to be an indie and YT star if you can pull it off on your own.
 
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AJUMP23

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The students should be able to sue the Uni if the degree turns out to be completely useless. But i guess it's difficult to determine if it's the degree or the student who is at fault.

While I think Ivy league school our built on past reputation and mild promises. There are examples of students that gets degrees and succeed in the respective field. Saying your a Lawyer from Harvard still carries weight in this world. There is also a lot of connections that Ivy league schools open up for their students. Getting a degree isn't a guarantee, but merely a tool that must be utilized to find success. There are people with communications degrees that can't communicate. The school would only be liable if they said you could earn a degree, and then they did not let you earn it.
 
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