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WTF: Renting games is forbidden in Belgium starting december 1st
- Thread starter Tieno
- Start date
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Tain said:
or someone selling their old beatles records at a garage sale without writing ringo a check. horror of horrors!
blackMamba1187
Member
That's terrible. I just started renting games again to try and save some money. I wouldn't be happy if suddenly it became illegal. I would probably be out another $120 for Dead Space and Saints Row 2.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Ironballs said:
no, rental stores don't buy games. they materialize in warehouses from the evaporated tears of bankrupt developers.
Danielsan said:
Nope. Game copies are just retail copies. Rentint them out is downright criminal (figuratively speaking).
Notorious_Roy said:
Movies are completely different. Movies in rental stores are not simple retail copies...unless that's changed in recent years. It used to be, at least, that rental copies cost somewhere in between $100-$200.
I have a feeling publishers may just get royalties for rentals now...though I'm not sure. Anyone have an idea what the current legal status is with movie rentals?
The only way customers get harmed by making lower quality video games is if they start buying shit games. Since we have a free market, a customer decides where the money goes. No one will actively seek out making shit games because they want their product to be better than the competition.
As for devs losing jobs and studios closing? I dont give a fuck. Its a dog eat dog world and if you want job security, go join the military. Do you use internet, cable, satellite, phone service? Those are all industries with outsourced jobs so please dont come on here crying about how we should care about your job when you directly participate in funding other companies that dont care about jobs, too.
I see "people in the industry" come on here a lot and bitch about, well, what amounts to capitalism. You want special protection for some reason and its not warranted. Learn to thrive in capitalism or exit the industry. Dont like the way it works? Change it but dont ask for the government to do it for you.
You know, people saying developers should make games worth owning...that's not a bad point. The problem though, is that that point can also be applied to pirated titles.
In the same way though, I agree that, like piracy, this is something developers need to deal with. If implementing a licensing solution is not in effect, developers will have to accept this as reality and offer a product worth owning.
In the same way though, I agree that, like piracy, this is something developers need to deal with. If implementing a licensing solution is not in effect, developers will have to accept this as reality and offer a product worth owning.
TheExodu5 said:
I think it should apply to piracy. Games that have excellent multiplayer or are constantly updated and patched with new content are less likely to be pirated. Make the game worth buying and people will buy it.
Not only will people buy it but they will greatly appreciate not being treated like criminals. Sins of a Solar Empire is a poster child for this approach.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
wow, so rental places dont actually have a special thing setup for game rentals? I always figured they had permission and the devs got a small cut if their game was rented. Wow no wonder they dont like it.
Stumpokapow said:
I agree the right to resale is fundamental. But nothing is stopping you from reselling or trading games in this law as far as I read. It simply disallows rentals.
And games are different from books and music and movies because 3 or 5 years later you still watch the movie, or reread a book, but you dont play the vast majority of your games save 1 or 2 if that. A game is a 1-2 time experience for the most part, but I have CD songs that I must have listened to dozens if not close to 100 times over the past 10-15 years. Sure you can argue that Mario Kart or Madden or FIFA can be played for 100 games over and over, but that's why I said most games, especially single player games, or those whose online servers are gone ofline (as EA tends to turn off online servers 1-2 years after game release).
But overall I agree that this law is a little out of bounds. It is protectionist and goes against commercial norms and expectations of average people. And their same argument can be easily applied to movies yet those don't seem to be part of this.
RubberJohnny
Banned
This is only going to get worse, as budgets rise games get shorter and thus renting becomes a likely action for far more people and the developers lose out on sales. The industry has backed itself into a corner with its focus on increasing technology.
Tarin02543
Member
Yep, didn't see that one coming. I'm making a list of video rental shops around here in Bruges, hopefully I'll be able to buy some great games for low dumping prices.
Danielsan said:
So? They already received payment for their work on the original purchase. Why are they entitled to payment every time a game changes ownership?
I understand that we are on a video game message board, but I don't get how some people (not necessarily you, Danielsan) can parse out the video game industry as some sacred and holy entity that should be separated from other industries with a used/rental market. I could almost understand if a person was entirely against the idea of second-hand markets for everything, and felt that the doctrine of first sale was a load of shit that stole food off of every single impacted industry's table. But I just do not understand why the video game industry is a sacred cow. I don't get it.
mre said:
I agree with you. If I can sell my Cds and DVDs then let me sell my games. I can see the issue with renting games, especially something that can be finished in a few days (the standard rental period), but resale and trade is the reason why I buy games on disc.
I think part of the reason people differentiate the game industry is because it is slightly different from other media industries. With music, you have CDs, concerts and merchandise as revenue streams, and CDs can sell for years after their initial release and concerts can go on forever for better bands. And thats without having new songs... With movies, you have theater revenue, and DVD sales and Bluray and special editions with double dipping and anniversary editions and again a tail of revenue, without any additional effort from the actors, director, producer....
With games, you have one shot to sell your game, at release, and if you have not sold well in the first few months, you are more often that not doomed as technology advances and your game is more and more antiquated. Also, there are no additional revenue streams, theres no re-releases on the 10th anniversary, there are no special editions a year later with more extras, there are no concerts, or merchandise years down the road. You need a new Madden every year, you need a new Call of Duty, and new Halo and a new Final Fantasy to keep the money flowing and keep the gamers satisfied. ANd that's additional work and time and investment.
That is why I think people want games to sell well for the benefit of developers, so they continue doing what we like them to do. Few, if any, developers make the big bucks like artists or actors do, instead its the publishers who seem to be raking it in. When is the last time you saw a game developer's mega-mansion or luxury car fleet on MTV's Cribs? vs a band member's house? or an athlete? or actor?
Sure we have Wii and the VC, or stupid ports on PSN and Live with no enhancements, but what kind of revenue do those bring in compared to a full title? Some of the best selling games on Live sell less than 100,000 copies. At a few bucks each, that's paltry compared to the money a re-release of Star Wars on Blu-ray or a reunion concert by the Police can bring in.
eznark said:
...and they are trying to alter that business model so it seems. So they are doing what you say they need to do, but you're getting pissed at them for that.
I can't believe how selfish people are, you do not need to be invested in a company to understand that sometimes they need to make changes that might not be for the better for the consumer. It sucks, but sometimes it needs to happen (I'm not so sure this is one of those cases that -needs- to happen).
Anyway, anyone who hasn't figured out that it's all about the $$$ yet is a lost cause, I don't rent so I guess I take this news more lightly than others but I can see where the "big bad guys" are coming from.
PjotrStroganov
Member
DO IT!
again
Considering the fact that gaming as a business is doing fine in the US (where renting is much more popular than in Europe) and is in fact flourishing like never before pretty much proves that renting does no harm to the industry. Anybody who thinks banning renting or banninng the sale of used games is a good idea; is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome and probably is happy about 60$ games and extreme DRM as well.
I tried asking CliffyB this question, but the reception on his solid gold telephone was bad.
Another thing to keep in mind is that, if you were to ban game rentals, you're also then taking away a lot of people's reasons to own a console in the first place. Consoles are a type of affordable entertainment and renting games is a huge part of that affordability. If it were to become such an expensive hobby that you had to buy every single activity you wished to enjoy on it, you better believe the sales of the consoles would go down. So now the publishers would have an increasingly smaller slice of the pie to pitch their full priced games to, and again I think the net result is fewer copies sold. You gotta think big picture when you talk about axing rentals. There may be a lot of other unintended consequences.
Fun Factor
Formerly FTWer
Large the stupidity in this thread is.
Look if a ton of people want to rent a game, you know what the rental store will do? BUY MORE COPIES.
This in no way shape or form hurts the gaming industry. The gaming industry tried to lobby for it, but got shut down here. Japan wasn't so lucky & look at them now.
Look at the N. American game sales vs Japanese sales. Gaming thrives in America, variety & even smaller niches, but it is all but borked in Japan.
Look if a ton of people want to rent a game, you know what the rental store will do? BUY MORE COPIES.
This in no way shape or form hurts the gaming industry. The gaming industry tried to lobby for it, but got shut down here. Japan wasn't so lucky & look at them now.
Look at the N. American game sales vs Japanese sales. Gaming thrives in America, variety & even smaller niches, but it is all but borked in Japan.
road2serfdom
Banned
RJT said:
Just because a user liscense statement says someting does not make it legal or binding. If you payed for a game and then they showed up at your door and pointed out language in the "agreement" that said "by installing this software you agree to give us your car and house." would you turn them over? Of course not. It is legal for them to say that, and to get houses and cars from people that don't know better, but they could never get a judge to make you turn over your house and car. They cannot punish you for selling your game to a friend, even if the "agreement" said you "can't" do that. It is tricky because it is not illegal for them to put a lot of crap into the agreements hoping people will believe it and go along. They just hope most people do not know a lot of it is legally invalid. Of course this could depend on the country, I am talking USA.
Damian said:
I haven't been in a Game Mania in over 2 years and I've saved so much money that way.
Now I only buy my games from Media Markt (Oostakker) which are much cheaper most of the time, and from British online stores which do crazy deals most of the time. (play, blahdvd, thehut)
Damian said:
GM is really expensive when it comes to new games on any platform. I go to Mediamarkt for new games. If a 360 game is region free I order it from VGplus. Same goes for any DS game. For used games I go to the boards of 9lives to get them cheap. Even those can be pretty damn expensive at GM.
In general, you pay too much for anything you get there.
charlequin
Banned
There's really no argument to be had here. This is bullshit protectionism, plain and simple: an industry that sells a luxury good is upset that their business model isn't good enough, and asking for government intervention to drive out the other businesses that take advantage of the gap (and the universal protections for end users that copyright and trademark law include) to make their own money.
As long as the game industry keeps cutting its throat with upward-spiralling costs and rising prices, it's going to need more and more shit like this because its business model sucks. Instead of getting helpful legislation, these publishers should be left to twist in the wind so that maybe, just maybe, they'll spend some money on developing a better business model that isn't threatened by totally reasonable things like resale and rental.
As long as the game industry keeps cutting its throat with upward-spiralling costs and rising prices, it's going to need more and more shit like this because its business model sucks. Instead of getting helpful legislation, these publishers should be left to twist in the wind so that maybe, just maybe, they'll spend some money on developing a better business model that isn't threatened by totally reasonable things like resale and rental.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
AndyD said:
It ends up being the same thing on a moral/principle level even if it seems different on a practical level. Right to resale is derived from the idea that the original producer's rights to his/her product ends when you buy it. There's no moral way to argue for resale and not rentals.
I agree with what you're saying here, but I should note that I replay most games in my collection more than I rewatch books or movies. Of course, the law shouldn't legislate based on "replay value". If we were legislating replay value, again, it would lead to a situation where some books, movies, and games were banned from rental while others were not.
If companies want to take advantage of the fact that high replay value games last longer, don't get traded in as much, retain value, etc... then that's their prerogative. If not, they can accept the consequences. Every developer knows the impacts of replayable games on sales patterns, and every publisher who subscribes to sales tracking services can see this trivially.
Goldrusher
Member
The USA will be a French colony before that happens. Especially if you want to include Wallonia and Luxemburg.PjotrStroganov said:
DO IT!again
RevenantKioku
PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
Really? I just remember the stores giving out something for a free future rental or some discount if the game you wanted that was just released was rented out.FTWer said:
They aren't going to buy more copies because when the game becomes less popular they would have unmoving product which just wastes space.
Some do sell rentals as used later, but still that doesn't necessarily mean they will buy more copies.
Renting I find to be an unfulfilling process and a waste of my money so I don't do it anyway. I can see why people would want to but I haven't been crying about living somewhere where you can't rent.
I have a credit card so I can buy them online. Online shops like play.com work with cheaper prices (49-56 euro for new PS3/X360 releases) and have a bigger library of games available. The second hand games are overpriced and the benefits of your gamemania customer card aren't that great either.Damian said: