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Xbox v.Next and Only Online by Paul Thurrott: Deal With It :)

What is this consumer rights you keep shoving in peoples faces? You either buy into their philosophy or you don't. Nobody is sticking a gun to your head to buy anything. As for privacy are you suggesting you need to have your home address and credit card too in order to play Halo? Create a dummy e-mail account if needed but it's doubtful your real name is going to be floating over your head while playing online matches.

I would wait and see the final details before believing it needs a constant connection just to play a game. That would be a huge risk and a big gamble for Microsoft to be going solo on that one. This is why people may be confusing always online required to needing a connection to register or simply some of the features work best with a connection.



Considering less than half of all Live members are even Gold I would think that's a huge risk.

The Consumer Rights I am talking about are things like the First Sale Doctrine.

As to privacy issues, online services are often monitored for marketing concerns. It is not out of the question that Microsoft would produce targeted advertisements. People, myself included have been willing to trade privacy for compelling services. Here there are no benefits only Microsoft asking customers to give away rights in exchange for a product that offers no compelling benefits.

We will know for sure what the 720 is soon enough. But till then I will continue to make my opinions about Online Required known. You of course have every right to disagree, but I would appreciate it if you would acknowledge that people have a right to express opinions about the ramifications of this rumor. A rumor that has grown in prominence for 6 months. A rumor that Microsoft could stop at any time with one off the record phone call to a respected journalist.
 
What if Don Mattrick comes out at E3 clapping after a little tease video and then does that scummy smile of his. Then he just pulls out a gun, shoots an audience member in the front row and states "$500 by tonight and I don't rape your wife and destroy the rest of your life, I'll even be nice and throw in this bricked console." Then he just drops the mic and walks away as Microsoft reps run out to grab the dead guys wallet

....

Idk man, Microsoft is feeling like a shitty company lately.

Don't know why this is on the NeoGAF Worst Posts twitter, because it made me laugh so hard while eating dinner right now! Maybe just cause I'm a fan of black comedy, just sounds right out of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
 

Cels

Member
What if Don Mattrick comes out at E3 clapping after a little tease video and then does that scummy smile of his. Then he just pulls out a gun, shoots an audience member in the front row and states "$500 by tonight and I don't rape your wife and destroy the rest of your life, I'll even be nice and throw in this bricked console." Then he just drops the mic and walks away as Microsoft reps run out to grab the dead guys wallet

....

Idk man, Microsoft is feeling like a shitty company lately.

rofl.



but seriously, i hope you don't actually feel like this and are just making a joke.
 

todahawk

Member
I think that the "Always on" will be something related with games more than the next Xbox. If game developers want this, this will be in 720, PS4 and everyone.

NOPE.
Sony has already said it won't block used game sales via PS4 and 'always online' won't be a requirement.
 
The Consumer Rights I am talking about are things like the First Sale Doctrine.

As to privacy issues, online services are often monitored for marketing concerns. It is not out of the question that Microsoft would produce targeted advertisements. People, myself included have been willing to trade privacy for compelling services. Here there are no benefits only Microsoft asking customers to give away rights in exchange for a product that offers no compelling benefits.

We will know for sure what the 720 is soon enough. But till then I will continue to make my opinions about Online Required known. You of course have every right to disagree, but I would appreciate it if you would acknowledge that people have a right to express opinions about the ramifications of this rumor. A rumor that has grown in prominence for 6 months. A rumor that Microsoft could stop at any time with one off the record phone call to a respected journalist.

Here is an excerpt of your link:

Application of the first-sale doctrine to digital copies of copyrighted works poses difficult policy questions. In today's world, copies of copyrighted works, music, movies, and software, are increasingly bought by downloading through the Internet. For example, can a lawful purchaser of a song in the AAC format from the iTunes Store be allowed, consistent with the first sale doctrine, to resell or distribute that copy to others? Digital copies of copyrighted works do not comfortably fit within the constraints of the first-sale doctrine. Unlike transactions where a tangible copy changes hands, a digital transfer results in a reproduction of the work through the electronic transmission of a new copy of the work to its recipient. In other words, transferor retains the source copy unless deleted from the hard disk manually or through some special technology. By sending a copy to the transferee, the transferor infringes both the reproduction and distribution rights, but the first-sale doctrine provides no defense to the infringement of the reproduction right. For example, this exact issue is playing out in the ongoing litigation against ReDigi, an online marketplace for pre-owned digital music.

The question is whether the first-sale doctrine should be retooled to reflect the realities of the digital age. Physical copies degrade over time, whereas digital information does not. Works in digital format can be reproduced without any flaws and can be disseminated worldwide without much difficulty. Thus, applying the first-sale doctrine to digital copies affect the market for the original to a greater degree than transfers of physical copies. The U.S. Copyright Office stated that "[t]he tangible nature of a copy is a defining element of the first-sale doctrine and critical to its rationale."[1]

However, in Europe, the European Court of Justice ruled on July 3, 2012, that it is indeed permissible to resell software licenses even if the digital good has been downloaded directly from the Internet, and that the first-sale doctrine applied whenever software was originally sold to a customer for an unlimited amount of time, as such sale involves a transfer of ownership, thus prohibiting any software maker from preventing the resale of their software by any of their legitimate owners.[2][3][4] The court requires that the previous owner must no longer be able to use the licensed software after the resale, but finds that the practical difficulties in enforcing this clause should not be an obstacle to authorizing resale, as they are also present for software which can be installed from physical supports, where the first-sale doctrine is in force.[5][6] The ruling applies to the European Union, but could indirectly find its way to North America; moreover the situation could entice publishers to offer platforms for a secondary market


That is a very gray area.

Now let me quote something you seem to not clarify on:

"We will know for sure what the 720 is soon enough. But till then I will continue to make my opinions about Online Required known. You of course have every right to disagree, but I would appreciate it if you would acknowledge that people have a right to express opinions about the ramifications of this rumor."


I don't disagree. In fact my exact words were this:

"I would wait and see the final details before believing it needs a constant connection just to play a game. That would be a huge risk and a big gamble for Microsoft to be going solo on that one. This is why people may be confusing always online required to needing a connection to register or simply some of the features work best with a connection."

I do not support the notion that a game console must require an online connection at all times. Is that clear enough for you? If however some functions work best with an online function I have no issues at all connecting my new system. In fact I already do on my other systems and my computer. Microsoft should know that online connections are not 100% stable or 100% guaranteed to always work. Therefore there must be some sort of a back-up plan. If not then they will have a major problem on their hands.
 

saunderez

Member
I'd like to thank Paul for easing my mind over the always online component of Nextbox. Oh wait he didn't do that, he just blamed us for not accepting it and making our voices heard. Douche.
 

pixlexic

Banned
On Xbox.com, what do you see in "Manage Payment Options"?

That doesn't work. you just keep going around in circles because if you have a credit card attached to your xbl account you must always have at least ONE attached.

You have to call in and go through this whole bs deal.
 
What if Don Mattrick comes out at E3 clapping after a little tease video and then does that scummy smile of his. Then he just pulls out a gun, shoots an audience member in the front row and states "$500 by tonight and I don't rape your wife and destroy the rest of your life, I'll even be nice and throw in this bricked console." Then he just drops the mic and walks away as Microsoft reps run out to grab the dead guys wallet

....

Idk man, Microsoft is feeling like a shitty company lately.

This is simultaneously the best and worst post I've ever read. I'm so confused.
 

M3d10n

Member
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's positive about having all my games stop working after 3 minutes without an internet connection.
 
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's positive about having all my games stop working after 3 minutes without an internet connection.

If you're playing Aliens: Colonial Marines, I'd say that's the best it could happen to you...

...

Is the best I could think of.
 

scitek

Member
i'm excited for what this will bring and the way i see it, if your internet is so spotty that this truly will be a huge negative for you - maybe you ought to be complaining about your ISP...

I'm complaining about these losers thinking they have a right to prevent me from reselling something I own, and them pretending whatever Kinect-riddled joke of a product they trot out is worth giving up some of my consumer rights for

NOPE.
Sony has already said it won't block used game sales via PS4 and 'always online' won't be a requirement.

This is the same Sony that embraced the godawful online pass system. They're as far from being against always-online as you can be without outright building it into the OS.
 

Lobst

Neo Member
Speaking as someone who was just hit by an afternoon-long Internet outage, I feel like we need to collectively replace "always online" with "incapable of going offline". This language makes it more clear that functionality is being lost.

Instead of asking "why is your [system/game] always on?" journalists should be asking "why can't we use it when the Internet blinks out?", which puts more of an impetus on the developer/publisher to justify why they're putting this restriction in place, rather than giving them an opportunity to talk about the "wonderful features" removing offline functionality "enables".
 

SykoTech

Member
I've never been one to wish that any company fails at something, but I hope this "always online" model crashes and burns for MS. I'd truly hate for it to become the standard.
 

saunderez

Member
This is the same Sony that embraced the godawful online pass system. They're as far from being against always-online as you can be without outright building it into the OS.

So now compulsory online is as bad as online passes? GTFO here. Online passes are a minor inconvenience at most. The things people will say to justify complete bullshit astound me.
 

surly

Banned
Thurrott is Microsoft's Gruber.
LOL. You should subscribe to Windows Weekly. I'd say he spends more time criticising MS on there than praising them. "Microsoft's Gruber" he certainly is not.

scitek said:
This is the same Sony that embraced the godawful online pass system.
Not embraced - created. They were the first company to use them and the first company to use them with all of their first party games.
 

Raoh

Member
This is simultaneously the best and worst post I've ever read. I'm so confused.

What if Don Mattrick comes out at E3 clapping after a little tease video and then does that scummy smile of his. Then he just pulls out a gun, shoots an audience member in the front row and states "$500 by tonight and I don't rape your wife and destroy the rest of your life, I'll even be nice and throw in this bricked console." Then he just drops the mic and walks away as Microsoft reps run out to grab the dead guys wallet

....

Idk man, Microsoft is feeling like a shitty company lately.

LMFAO

And lately? I've been using MS products since windows 3.1.1, MS has been a shitty company for years, long before the xbox was ever conceived.
 

hawk2025

Member
LOL. You should subscribe to Windows Weekly. I'd say he spends more time criticising MS on there than praising them. "Microsoft's Gruber" he certainly is not.


Not embraced - created. They were the first company to use them and the first company to use them with all of their first party games.



Are you sure about this?

I thought EA/Ubisoft/THQ were first.
 
Here is an excerpt of your link:

Application of the first-sale doctrine to digital copies of copyrighted works poses difficult policy questions. In today's world, copies of copyrighted works, music, movies, and software, are increasingly bought by downloading through the Internet. For example, can a lawful purchaser of a song in the AAC format from the iTunes Store be allowed, consistent with the first sale doctrine, to resell or distribute that copy to others? Digital copies of copyrighted works do not comfortably fit within the constraints of the first-sale doctrine. Unlike transactions where a tangible copy changes hands, a digital transfer results in a reproduction of the work through the electronic transmission of a new copy of the work to its recipient. In other words, transferor retains the source copy unless deleted from the hard disk manually or through some special technology. By sending a copy to the transferee, the transferor infringes both the reproduction and distribution rights, but the first-sale doctrine provides no defense to the infringement of the reproduction right. For example, this exact issue is playing out in the ongoing litigation against ReDigi, an online marketplace for pre-owned digital music.

The question is whether the first-sale doctrine should be retooled to reflect the realities of the digital age. Physical copies degrade over time, whereas digital information does not. Works in digital format can be reproduced without any flaws and can be disseminated worldwide without much difficulty. Thus, applying the first-sale doctrine to digital copies affect the market for the original to a greater degree than transfers of physical copies. The U.S. Copyright Office stated that "[t]he tangible nature of a copy is a defining element of the first-sale doctrine and critical to its rationale."[1]

However, in Europe, the European Court of Justice ruled on July 3, 2012, that it is indeed permissible to resell software licenses even if the digital good has been downloaded directly from the Internet, and that the first-sale doctrine applied whenever software was originally sold to a customer for an unlimited amount of time, as such sale involves a transfer of ownership, thus prohibiting any software maker from preventing the resale of their software by any of their legitimate owners.[2][3][4] The court requires that the previous owner must no longer be able to use the licensed software after the resale, but finds that the practical difficulties in enforcing this clause should not be an obstacle to authorizing resale, as they are also present for software which can be installed from physical supports, where the first-sale doctrine is in force.[5][6] The ruling applies to the European Union, but could indirectly find its way to North America; moreover the situation could entice publishers to offer platforms for a secondary market


That is a very gray area.

Now let me quote something you seem to not clarify on:

"We will know for sure what the 720 is soon enough. But till then I will continue to make my opinions about Online Required known. You of course have every right to disagree, but I would appreciate it if you would acknowledge that people have a right to express opinions about the ramifications of this rumor."


I don't disagree. In fact my exact words were this:

"I would wait and see the final details before believing it needs a constant connection just to play a game. That would be a huge risk and a big gamble for Microsoft to be going solo on that one. This is why people may be confusing always online required to needing a connection to register or simply some of the features work best with a connection."

I do not support the notion that a game console must require an online connection at all times. Is that clear enough for you? If however some functions work best with an online function I have no issues at all connecting my new system. In fact I already do on my other systems and my computer. Microsoft should know that online connections are not 100% stable or 100% guaranteed to always work. Therefore there must be some sort of a back-up plan. If not then they will have a major problem on their hands.

I agree that First Sale is more nebulous with digital downloads. This is why publishers would push for a always online all digital future. I think we have been agreeing very loudly this whole time. I am sorry if I got heated.
 
Wasn't everyone including all the "insiders" absolutely positively certain that the PS4 was going to have 4 GB GDDR5 RAM. It sure will be interesting to hear all the silence when some of the stuff that all know for sure is in the next Xbox isn't actually there.
 

Cronq

Banned
NOPE.
Sony has already said it won't block used game sales via PS4 and 'always online' won't be a requirement.

Do you have the source for that?

Also, "not blocking" doesn't necessarily mean that they will be completely unfettered like current-gen. There's still plenty of room for creativity and other shenanigans that Sony could pull with used games.

Personally, I think Sony has done a good job of keeping all their dirty secrets for later. Right now they're enjoying MS taking all the heat and bad press while they look like the good guy. I refuse to believe that Sony doesn't have some nasty secrets they just haven't let go public yet. I HIGHLY doubt the $300 dream machine free of online subs, used game restrictions, and free used games is what we'll end up with.
 

Spinluck

Member
Wasn't everyone including all the "insiders" absolutely positively certain that the PS4 was going to have 4 GB GDDR5 RAM. It sure will be interesting to hear all the silence when some of the stuff that all know for sure is in the next Xbox isn't actually there.

Wait, so what exactly are you saying?
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Wasn't everyone including all the "insiders" absolutely positively certain that the PS4 was going to have 4 GB GDDR5 RAM. It sure will be interesting to hear all the silence when some of the stuff that all know for sure is in the next Xbox isn't actually there.

That had been the plan for a long time but it got changed last minute because of an improvement in chip densities. At this point it seems certain to me that Microsoft is seriously considering this, even if it doesn't make it to the final console.
 
Do you have the source for that?

Also, "not blocking" doesn't necessarily mean that they will be completely unfettered like current-gen. There's still plenty of room for creativity and other shenanigans that Sony could pull with used games.

Personally, I think Sony has done a good job of keeping all their dirty secrets for later. Right now they're enjoying MS taking all the heat and bad press while they look like the good guy. I refuse to believe that Sony doesn't have some nasty secrets they just haven't let go public yet. I HIGHLY doubt the $300 dream machine free of online subs, used game restrictions, and free used games is what we'll end up with.

Is it to hard to read a few pages back or do a search?

Stemming fears of the always-online requirement still rumored strongly for the next Xbox, a Sony PR rep confirmed to Kotaku that: "PS4 games will be playable without an Internet connection."

Blizzard: PS4 Diablo 3 will not require internet connection. Remember the game that is plagued with always online DRM that caused an uproar on PC....

This has been also said in Japan many times. Who seem to have a bigger issue with this than we do.

"Sony president of Worldwide Studios Shuhei Yoshida last week confirmed that used games will play on the PlayStation 4." Gamespot

You can find as many sources as you want to. Just look around....
 
I agree that First Sale is more nebulous with digital downloads. This is why publishers would push for a always online all digital future. I think we have been agreeing very loudly this whole time. I am sorry if I got heated.

No problem. I think it's obvious by customer reaction that something like a always on requirement is a bad idea. It kind of takes away the whole essence of why people buy a game console. We've seen the hiccups on the PC gaming end with issues on games like Simcity, why Microsoft would want to venture into that territory is beyond me.

I guess I may be a bit more flexible than some seeing as how my gaming systems are already always connected so to speak, but to require a connection just to play is not something I would support. Not after suffering the headaches of Live being down for 2 weeks for many back in 2007, and the PSN outage for over a month in 2011. We have seen hackers go to town in recent years and DDoS attacks happen frequently. It's just a PR nightmare waiting to happen.
 

Spinluck

Member
I see, well I agree to an extent. Nothing wrong with waiting for officially confirmation. But things like the 4GB rumor, made the 8GB reveal much sweeter. Just my two cents.
 

Taiser

Member
Do you have the source for that?



PlayStation 4 does not require an internet connection

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-21-playstation-4-does-not-require-an-internet-connection

Sony's super-slick PS4 conference talked about a lot of functionality that will clearly benefit from an internet connection more than ever before - a processing module that handles downloads in the console's suspend state, for one thing - but when I talked to Sony Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida after the PS4 conference he was adamant it was all customisable.

Does the PlayStation 4 always need to be connected to the internet, I asked?

"You can play offline, but you may want to keep it connected," he suggested. "The system has the low-power mode - I don't know the official term - that the main system is shut down but the subsystem is awake. Downloading or updating or you can wake it up using either the tablet, smartphone or PS Vita."

Are all of those things optional, though? For people who have broadband data limits, for example? They can customise everything?

"Oh yes, yes, you can go offline totally. Social is big for us, but we understand there are some people who are anti-social! So if you don't want to connect to anyone else, you can do that."
 
I see, well I agree to an extent. Nothing wrong with waiting for officially confirmation. But things like the 4GB rumor, made the 8GB reveal much sweeter. Just my two cents.

Microsoft could do the same, they could reveal that not only it requires an online connection 24/7 just to play games, but Kinect also has to verify who you are at all times too or else you get signed out.


I believe Sony is allowing outside parties to do as they wish. Some games may have some form of DRM and others are rumored (Watchdogs) to have an always online approach. This is a much better policy than the rumors flying about the next Xbox.
 

Iacobellis

Junior Member
Microsoft could do the same, they could reveal that not only it requires an online connection 24/7 just to play games, but Kinect also has to verify who you are at all times too or else you get signed out.

And any credit card it sees is instantly used to renew your subscription. Locked in forever!
 
All of your gaming achievements will be instantly tweeted to all of your best buddies and posted to facebook for the total social experience !!!!!

I wish they would say that, so I could do this:

ape.jpg
 
I agree. I wouldn't want my game console to be at the mercy of a connection either but to make an argument about a console versus a DVD player is a stretch.

What's the difference?

I wouldn't buy a Kindle if I could only read The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo when it is connected to Amazon.

I wouldn't buy an iPod if I could only listen to the new Flaming Lips album when it is connected to Apple or Warner.

I wouldn't buy a DVD or Blu-Ray player if it could only play The Avengers when it's connected to Disney or Sony or whoever.

And I won't buy a game console if I can only play Bioshock Infinite when it's connected to 2K or Microsoft or anybody else.

No difference whatsoever. I'm not a moron, so I would not buy these things.
 
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's positive about having all my games stop working after 3 minutes without an internet connection.
They'll give this use case the only positive light it can have by not mentioning it and instead focus on online benefits that shouldn't require a mandate. Like in every thread we've had about it.

If you do a simple 2x2 end user benefits matrix with "optional online"/"mandatory online" on one side and "per game basis"/"system wide" on the other, that lower right cell will be desperately empty.
 

Quasar

Member
LOL. You should subscribe to Windows Weekly. I'd say he spends more time criticising MS on there than praising them. "Microsoft's Gruber" he certainly is not.

Yeah. I'd be pretty offended if I was Thurrott and put in the same company as that cheerleader.
 

Takuya

Banned
Wasn't everyone including all the "insiders" absolutely positively certain that the PS4 was going to have 4 GB GDDR5 RAM. It sure will be interesting to hear all the silence when some of the stuff that all know for sure is in the next Xbox isn't actually there.

Uhhh, the PS4 DID have 4GB GDDR5, and many sources also said that Sony was considering upgrading to 8GB GDDR5.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
So this confirms I will never ever buy a Xbox 3 (for personal use). What the hell is Microsoft thinking? I just hope they go down this generation because this type of business practices is the absolute worst in videogaming. If a console doesn't play my singleplayer games (I hate online gaming) anymore when Microsoft decides to pull the plug on Xbox Live (like they did on the first Xbox), I'm done with that corporation.

They are not selling me games, they are taking my money for the always-revocable right to play a game whenever I have a connection to the internet and Microsoft's servers run as desired. Too bad, because this is the single reason stopping me from buying an Xbox 3 and it will definitely make me jump ship to Sony for my secondary console. Even Banjo 3 could not save me as a customer for Microsoft. And I'm the biggest Banjo-fan there is. This is in no way acceptable.

Now, to hope there will be a good third party controller for PS4 where the left analog stick is in the correct position (or that I can play everything with Move) :/.
 
Admittedly I'm not a fan of the prospect of a new console requiring an active Internet connection just so you can used the damned thing. However, that's not my biggest turn off.

How come no one is discussing mandatory kinect? That really makes me feel uncomfortable. How can anyone be comfortable with knowing you'll always be watched by the kinect camera? Anecdotal evidence I know, but when I mentioned this rumour to my GF her response was "you're not getting one of those then".

I just feel really uncomfortable with the mandatory camera (can't say I like these new TVs with cameras either).

And before anyone says, yes my phone/iPad/laptop all have cameras, but they're not able to view my entire living room at any time.
 
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