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Platform Xbox Velocity Architecture - 100 GB is instantly accessible by the developer through a custom hardware decompression block

Hotspurr

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At best sony will cut the load time to half?
Right now things are on standard HDD, and the loading times are not bad, typically in the sub 30s range, SDDs in general will already cut that in half. So Sony might have the advantage of 5-6s loading time?
For next gen titles with larger assets there may be a large difference, maybe 10 extra seconds? Oh no
Better SSD is definitely nice to have, and there will be a tangible difference between the consoles.

As for 4K 60 FPS, Xbox will have the edge there. It's unclear to me whether the power budget they gave to the PS5 will keep it cool. If the PS5 sounds like the jet engine PS4 Pro, that's quite annoying. Your 3D audio will be supplemented by jet engine audio unless you turn up the sound pretty high (or wear headphones). Towards the later stages of console life, the PS5 and XSX will likely behave like the OG PS4 and Xbox One, where the one struggled quite a bit. But, by that point they will release new consoles, likely with better everything, so these points will be moot.

At the end of the day, the smart move is the following:
1) Wait to see the noise and heat levels of the consoles, making sure there are no glaring flaws (like a RROD scenario or jet engine fan performance)
2) Buy the console that has your favorite games on it

The only way I see PS5 falling behind is if they launch at an equivalent or higher price. If they launch at a lower price (by say even $50), they will still be quite a bit ahead.
Personally because I play multiplatform, I would buy the console that has more longevity built into it. Sony exclusives generally do nothing for me, especially since they ruined things I used to love like GoW.
 

sinnergy

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This is interesting stuff IMO.

Both MS and Sony are clearly trying to accomplish the same kinds of results. Can't wait to fins out how they perform in practice.

Will Sony's implementation be able to distinguish itself from MS's ( and in what ways exactly ) or will they both wind up functionally the same?
Bingo.
 
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OneShotThrill

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Sounds like 2013 repeats itself with the difference of who's in the lead.
These specs mean jack shit at launch when no one has heavy hitting software to sway the masses. MS already said they wouldnt have it. I doubt Sony will after dumping everything on Ps4 this year. Were gonna see beautiful versions of FIFA, NBA 2k and COD. Sony will release a Ps5 Pro( they will) and all of this speculation and dick waiving about empty numbers will be moot. 🤷🏾‍♂️
 
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BattleScar

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A dev commented
A developer commented...on The Verge...?
Didn't know developers visited The Verge.

But lets examine this developer comment, shall we?

We also don’t know how well cooled the SSD is on the PS5. MS explained their cooling and how their SSD solution can basically run a constant storage bandwidth.
The key on the XSX is that MS touts the numbers, from storage to teraflops to memory bandwidth to clocks, are all constant and predictable. There is no overlock or underlock. You know what speed your storage will go at, what speed your CPU and CPU cores will go out, how fast your memory will be, etc. This makes optimizing much easier because they have made performance sustained and predictable.
Right, so. The only variable in the PS5 is the GPU, which runs at constant power, variable frequency instead of the Xbox's variable power, constant frequency.
What does this have to do with the SSD? Microsoft do indeed have a wonderful cooling solution. As I'm sure do Sony. We don't know, but to make assumptions at this stage is foolish.

So we are basically getting a PCIe 4.0 SSD on the PS5. With that comes more heat – that is the cost of the speed. Is there a heat sync? Does it latch into the cooling system overall? Do your add on SSDs need a heat sync or performance will suffer? Do they need a specific heat sink?
The Series X SSD is also a PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSD. The principle difference between them being their operating bandwidth and Sony's highly customised SSD controller.
Also I believe the term this person is looking for is heat sink.


It seems that Microsoft engineering came to the conclusion that a PC m.2 drive may not be optimal for predictable sustained performance. They also may have concluded the PCIe 4.0 will run too hot. m.2 SSDs in high performance laptops and desktops cannot sustain transfer due to heat without some massive mod. If MS has figured out how to deliver a high speed storage system with excellent heat transfer, we may find in real life that the PS5 speed is not impressive.
This is false, as microsoft are using a PCIe 4.0 SSD. They might not be using an M.2 slot to connect it, as the onboard memory seems to be embedded, but the interface is still PCIe 4.0. So no, Microsoft did not conclude PCIe 4.0 will run too hot, because they are using PCIe 4.0 - that would be rather counterproductive, would it not?


It’s quite possible that without the proper cooling, the PS5 system may have to throttle down to slower speeds to keep cooler in regards to SSD.
The question that needs to be answered is did Sony do this to get super high speed storage that is way ahead – or did they do it so they could just get storage to match what the we will see in the XSX because they did not or could not engineer a solution for cooling?
This statement doesn't make any sense at all.

Did Sony engineer a blazing fast SSD so they could compensate for poor cooling? So, this individual thinks that Sony made an SSD that can operate at more than twice the rated maximum bandwidth as the XSX, just so that when it thermal throttles, it can match the XSX's SSD? Why not just use a slower SSD that doesn't thermal throttle. Much cheaper.

They made a really fast SSD, because they wanted a really fast SSD. Its not that complicated.


The RAM that matters in the Xbox is far superior and will allow for faster throughput and less wasted cycles. It will be easy to allocate to specific memory addresses associated with the higher speed memory. The PS5 I/O advantage may not be much if the cooling is not adequate and MS is correct and they have adequately cooled it so the I/O can be sustained and not diminish.
This reads as fanboy nonsense at best and astroturfing at worst.

Sony is not that great at cooling. I’ve heard from devs that Sony is not showing off the PS5 because it has thermal problems. Microsoft has no problem letting DF do a vid and showing them around while Sony has to rush a presentation to counter. I know from devs that have the kits that they feel the Xbox is easier to optimize and they feel games will look and feel much better on the Xbox upon release because it will take time to optimize for PS5 and figure it out.
He's heard from Devs? I thought he was a Dev?

Either way, there is immediately a problem here, as he falsely claims that Sony made the presentation as a response to Microsoft's reveal. We know that to be false, as the PlayStation presentation was originally intended as a GDC keynote. The second claim that developers that have the kit feel the Xbox is easier to optimise for is a statement that needs some serious evidence to support it.
Cerny spent a hilarious amount of time talking about "Time to triangle", and making the PS5 as easy to develop for as humanly possible. How the two systems compare on that front remains to be seen.

I’ve been told it is not as bad as what happened with the PS3, but somewhat similar. The Xbox 360 was much more straightforward while the architecture for the PS3 was not. This is not the Cell, but it will require a lot of work in regards to clocks, etc to figure out how to optimize. They will eventually, but the first year may have some rougher titles that look noticeably worse than the XSX.
Well yes, the Xbox has a 20-30% compute advantage. That would be why games would look better on Xbox.

The one advantage the PS5 has, the I/O, may not be one if they can’t cool the drive. And the question of expansion is a real one. Do you need a heat sink on your approved SSD? The Xbox solution may be more expensive, but it also may be more consistent and easier to deal with since you don’t have to crack open the case. MS could also bulk order them up front to reduce initial cost.
I will say, MS’ way is pretty cool and reminiscent of bringing a Switch card or an old Gamecube save card and plugging it into a friend’s system. Microsoft’s setup let’s you easily bring your digital game with you, pre-downloaded, to play on other people’s XSX consoles once you login to your account. PS5 can’t do that – not with the newest games. Their external storage is not fast enough while Xbox’s is.
This is a legitimate point actually. Brings back the days of the memory cards.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Can someone give me a clue as what all this compressed/non-compressed stuff means? Why wouldn't everything be compressed if it can ensure a greater I/O speed?
Assuming I sent you this photo Compressed:


You'll need to decompress it first to use it, and that will take some time or occupy a spot in your ram/CPU/GPU waiting to be used.

But loading raw assets means you pick it straight away without all that hassle, putting less stress on the CPU/GPU so potentially you can compensate for the gap between you and a higher spec hardware (CPU/GPU/Ram).

This is of course a raw image that doesn't need any processing, that's why Mark Cerny SKIPPED the compressed part and only talked RAW.



 
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V4skunk

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XsX still has so much more that Microsoft has not even talked about yet.

Stay tuned.
We know pretty much everything now.
XSX will have superior performance with its 20-25% raw power advantage.
PS5 might do some things with its ssd in open world games out of reach to XSX.
 
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Shin

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100gb instantly avaiable... the pr does know no boundries.
Both sides are, one is SSD SSD, SSD the other about power and what's not.
Personally I don't buy into that kinda non-sense as the result will speak for itself come launch.
One thing to keep in mind though, Xbox team worked with the DirectX, Azure, sound and which ever other team(s) to create Series X.
Basically a lot more knowledge all-around, I think it's important to keep in mind, especially since they are closer to gaming or PC/server market than Sony's team.

In the end an SSD does 2 things, read/write, no matter how you try and paint that or what fancy word you use it will not change what the part is does.
Hooray for saving couple of seconds on loading, hooray for assets streaming in faster - such game changerrrrrrr, we'll forget that shit within a few weeks.
 
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KlickKlack

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If one car could go 100 MPH and seated 200 people, but another car could go only 83 MPH, but seated 400, which would you prefer?

We’re seeing a storage speed increase not before seen. MS says 40x (so a 5 person car becomes 200 in this abysmal analogy), and Sony is twice that. I personally have no idea what having a 200 person car would be like, maybe it’s amazing! Maybe 400 is better. Idk, I like more than 5 people irl but probably not 200 and certainly not 400. But how fast my car can go is practically far more important, and something I’m used to. Sony is leading in something unprecedented for both, something already MASSIVELY improved for both, and something we aren’t used to benefiting from. Now if you’ll excuse me I just woke up, and that was perhaps literally the worst analogy of all time.
absolutely great explanation.. are you a dev from sony?

what happens when 399 people come to you station and you fast car has only 200 seats?
i think... big problems happen... .
 

48086

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These specs mean jack shit at launch when no one has heavy hitting software to sway the masses. MS already said they wouldnt have it. I doubt Sony will after dumping everything on Ps4 this year. Were gonna see beautiful versions of FIFA, NBA 2k and COD. Sony will release a Ps5 Pro( they will) and all of this speculation and dick waiving about empty numbers will be moot. 🤷🏾‍♂️
The xsx will launch with:

  • Halo
  • any unannounced first party game(s) (maybe forza 8)
  • third party launch titles
  • Game Pass
  • Every bc xbox and 360 game
  • Every x1 game

That's a lot.

Also, as a reminder, when the x1 and ps4 launched it was all about power. The x1 actually had more exclusives.
 

48086

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Yup, 4.8GB/s sounds ok, but it's COMPRESSED, with raw being 2.4GB/s only. PS5 is doing 5.5BG/s RAW, so around 11GB/s compressed.

Still, like a minivan, you can drive it to work. :messenger_winking_tongue: That's how too much steroid hinders your agility.:messenger_sunglasses:
What's the difference between compressed and decompressed? How will that impact gameplay?
 
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The_Mike

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These specs mean jack shit at launch when no one has heavy hitting software to sway the masses. MS already said they wouldnt have it. I doubt Sony will after dumping everything on Ps4 this year. Were gonna see beautiful versions of FIFA, NBA 2k and COD. Sony will release a Ps5 Pro( they will) and all of this speculation and dick waiving about empty numbers will be moot. 🤷🏾‍♂️
I remember game foundry and everyone counting pixels, and in theory you are right. But in console war, every straw matters.

Personally I don't give a shit myself, but can't help but laughing about those crying ps fanboys who's bullied Xbox players all these years now crying over getting their own medicine.
 

nowhat

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It's now up to 11 gb/s? I thought it was 8-9 gb/s?
Well, TBH these are compressed rates we're talking about - unless MS has some secret compression scheme they've failed to mention, I think it's fair to say the compressed transfer rate is twice that of raw, since MS says that too. But in practice, 8-9 GB/s is probably a reasonable approximation with real data. Which also means 4.8 GB/s is too high for Sexbox.
 
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Lady Bernkastel

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You honestly believe Sony only has Godfall up its sleeve? If there is one thing Sony consoles dont lack its games to play on a games console.
But you are using the old "Xbox has no games" card. Insomniac(2018), SSM(2018), Bend(2019) and Kojima(2019) will have their next games launch 2022 or later(Bend will take more time). Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch will come after that (2024 or later). Guerilla Games is rumored to be working on a multiplayer game and 80 of their staffs were on Death Stranding, so Horizon 2 will wait after that game(2022 or later). Meanwhile 343i started working on Halo Infinite on late 2015, Ninja Theory began working on Hellblade II on 2016 and Playground Games began working on their RPG project on late 2016 and there are also Perfect Dark rumours for a few years. By the time next gen AAA first party Playstation games start launching, other newer Xbox first party studios will also launch their own first party projects. Also, Godfall is timed exclusive.
 

SotaSkoldier

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We know pretty much everything now.
XSX will have superior performance with its 20-25% raw power advantage.
PS5 might do some things with its ssd in open world games out of reach to XSX.
No one knows that yet. Two things quickly. 1) Sony have no demonstrated instant loading times. They said it was targeted. Until they prove that it has been accomplished color me skeptical. Furthermore if we are arguing about 9 second loading times vs even 2-3 second loading times absolutely no one is going to care a month after the consoles launch. 2) Microsoft also have this velocity architecture that they keep going on and on about. We have no clue what it is capable of. I have no delusions that it negates Sony's SSD route they have chosen to take, but in certain situations like open world games they may be able to just take a few seconds longer for the initial load and get the same effect as what Sony are going for. We do not know.

Until Sony shows us that a PS5 game loads instantly I refuse to believe it is going to happen. I think they will load extremely fast compared to current gen games, but I doubt instant loading will happen.
 

Bo_Hazem

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What's the difference between compressed and decompressed? How will that impact gameplay?
Well, with higher raw you just pick it on the fly from the SSD, with slower raw you might need to compress then decompress outside the SSD, probably put more stress on ram/GPU/CPU that can be avoided by faster SSD.

Meaning is all roads lead to Rome. XSX can take that extra stress, PS5 will use that to close the gap. Final results might be even.

Only 1st party games can use that properly, outside Sony's 1st party it's integrated and works automatically and make more room for CPU/GPU to catch up with XSX.

Final results: everyone is happy, I guess.
 

Entroyp

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I just love how only a year ago an SSD in a console was a friggin’ pipedream. Now we getting supercharged SSD tech that is faster to what’s available out there (for now).

Great times ahead for us gamers.
 
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oldergamer

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The choices sony made are going to be very costly on the SSD. I bet they will offer a model with slower ssd eventually to drop the cost.
 

Dural

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PS5 might do some things with its ssd in open world games out of reach to XSX.
Open world is where I'd expect PS5 to have the most issues, they are the most demanding games and both the CPU and GPU won't be able to run at full speed. Faster asset streaming isn't going to save you when your CPU can't process it fast enough.
 

BattleScar

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The choices sony made are going to be very costly on the SSD. I bet they will offer a model with slower ssd eventually to drop the cost.
I think they're actually placing a big bet on NAND prices falling due to the huge volume the consoles are expected to sell in. A similar kind of bet they placed on the PS4 with the 8GB of GDDR5

Open world is where I'd expect PS5 to have the most issues, they are the most demanding games and both the CPU and GPU won't be able to run at full speed. Faster asset streaming isn't going to save you when your CPU can't process it fast enough.
100MHz deficit is not gonna affect things much on the CPU front.
 
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MaulerX

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Microsoft will try as hard as they can to downplay the PS5 SSD!! The difference is much bigger than the TFlops difference.
Better CPU for more stable/higher framerates. Better GPU for higher resolutions, higher graphic effects. More compute units for a more robust Ray-Tracing solution. Higher overall bandwidth of actual RAM.

And yes, it might take a few seconds more to load than on PS5. The Series X will be the best multiplat console no doubt about it.
 

Bo_Hazem

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It's now up to 11 gb/s? I thought it was 8-9 gb/s?
It's all gibberish assumptions at the moment. Sony will only use raw to free up CPU/GPU/Ram for 3rd party, probably use that speed on its 1st party games. Sony didn't bother to talk about the compressed number, as it's intended to use raw and skip unnecessary work.

Push me more and I'll get a master degree in IT by diving here with you guys :messenger_tears_of_joy:

 
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Pug

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With regards to the Velocity Engine (I love marketing) thingy in the XSX. I think this may help. Or may not!

 
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Aceofspades

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Open world is where I'd expect PS5 to have the most issues, they are the most demanding games and both the CPU and GPU won't be able to run at full speed. Faster asset streaming isn't going to save you when your CPU can't process it fast enough.
That's why they equipped PS5 with beefy I/O decompressor that as powerful as 10 Zen cores to avoid bottlenecks in the cycle.
 
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Lady Bernkastel

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I forgot to mention
Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS) – A component of the Xbox Velocity Architecture, SFS is a feature of the Xbox Series X hardware that allows games to load into memory, with fine granularity, only the portions of textures that the GPU needs for a scene, as it needs it. This enables far better memory utilization for textures, which is important given that every 4K texture consumes 8MB of memory. Because it avoids the wastage of loading into memory the portions of textures that are never needed, it is an effective 2x or 3x (or higher) multiplier on both amount of physical memory and SSD performance.
 

Three

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Microsoft’s solution is definitely in the ”good enough” category. I think the propriety add on storage will be better for the consumer too. You will just grab one off the shelf when you go into the game shop. Sony’s you are probably going to have to hunt down one that actually meets the standard, and it will be pricey.
The proprietary one will be less pricey you think? Did the 360 hdds teach you nothing?
 
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Remij

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I/O decompressor inside PS5 is as powerful as 10 Zen CPU cores, with two extra co processors to handle other stuff. Its in the detailed video by Cerny
And it will never reach 22GB/s in practical use..
 
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GymWolf

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Yup. A 5.5 GB/s NVMe 1 TB SSD will cost around 300 USD.
Upto 4.8 GB/s, costs 240 USD.
Many people will have to contend with the included 825 GB SSD.

The SSD alone may drive PS5 price to around 600 USD.
no chance in hell, sony is not that stupid.
making devs happy while putting milions of crybabies on suicide watch? not gonna happen, sony is still interested in money more than making developer happy.
 
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CJY

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I/O decompressor inside PS5 is as powerful as 10 Zen CPU cores, with two extra co processors to handle other stuff. Its in the detailed video by Cerny
It's exactly this kind of thing, along with the Sound SPU, taking loads away from the CPU and GPU and that will mitigate any potential advantage of having more compute.
 
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DaGamez

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Xbox is selling its own propitiatory memory card in partnership with Seagate. Incase of PS5, customers will have to buy 5.5 GB/s NVMe SSD drives for external storage, which will cost like hell. This also makes you question the retail price of PS5.
I thought Cerny said that the PS5 required 7GB/s NVMe drives? Maybe I misunderstood, I thought they needed the overhead to match performance with their custom solution. The one big advantage to Sony's approach is if money is no object to you, you can spend 2-3k and install a very large drive. Capacities will likely be limited on XSX, looks like it will launch with just 1TB "cards" available.
 
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Lady Bernkastel

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no chance in hell, sony is not that stupid.
making devs happy while putting milions of crybabies on suicide watch? not gonna happen, sony is still interested in money more than making developer happy.
Then why the hell are you assuming XSX will cot 600 USD or more.
 
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Three

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This is interesting stuff IMO.

Both MS and Sony are clearly trying to accomplish the same kinds of results. Can't wait to fins out how they perform in practice.

Will Sony's implementation be able to distinguish itself from MS's ( and in what ways exactly ) or will they both wind up functionally the same?
Likely functionally very similar consoles.
You think a 5.5 GB/sec NVMe SSD drive will cost anything less than 300 USD?
Those XSX memory cards will definitely be cheaper. Unlike 360 HDDs these are being advertised as memory cards and will be priced accordingly.
Ok but you think that MS will offer a performance equal to an NVMe drive with zero competition (because it's 'proprietary', they don't make these drives they stick them in a caddy and charge high prices). How and why exactly would they do that? Please explain.

The 360 drives were regular drives in a plastic caddie sold at extortionate prices for the storage amount.
 
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Lady Bernkastel

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I thought Cerny said that the PS5 required 7GB/s NVMe drives? Maybe I misunderstood, I thought they needed the overhead to match performance with their custom solution. The one big advantage to Sony's approach is if money is no object to you, you can spend 2-3k and install a very large drive. Capacities will likely be limited on XSX, looks like it will launch with just 1TB "cards" available.
7GB/s NVMe drives will cost even more. Eventually Microsoft will also release 2 TB or 4 TB memory cards.
 

Bo_Hazem

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With regards to the Velocity Engine (I love marketing) thingy in the XSX. I think this may help. Or may not!

Seems he felt asleep in the middle of Cerny's lecture. All theories here, I'm not a tech guy but I've learned a lot from a lot of knowledgeable people around here + youtube/web. Just like most the guys here, enthusiast gamer.
 

TLZ

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Microsoft’s solution is definitely in the ”good enough” category. I think the propriety add on storage will be better for the consumer too. You will just grab one off the shelf when you go into the game shop. Sony’s you are probably going to have to hunt down one that actually meets the standard, and it will be pricey.
Lol.
 
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Aceofspades

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Xbox is selling its own propitiatory memory card in partnership with Seagate. Incase of PS5, customers will have to buy 5.5 GB/s NVMe SSD drives for external storage, which will cost like hell. This also makes you question the retail price of PS5.
Proprietary has always been more expensive than generics, do you remember HDDvd extension for 360? Or even 360 Hdd were more expensive than generic solution used by Sony.

Sony is giving you the choice of getting any nvme that support PS5 blazing speeds.
 
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Lady Bernkastel

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Ok but you think that MS will offer a performance equal to an NVMe drive with zero competition because it's 'proprietary' (they don't make these drives they stick them in a caddy and charge high prices). How and why exactly would they do thag?

The 360 drives were regular drives in a plastic caddie sold at extortionate prices for the storage amount.
Those memory cards have the same NVMe drive as the one inside XSX. Digital Foundry and Austin Evans already showed us the memory cards, they dont look like cheap plastics at all. Microsoft has moved away from the cheap hardware deisgns of 360 days.