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Platform Xbox Velocity Architecture - 100 GB is instantly accessible by the developer through a custom hardware decompression block

raysoft76

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Been seeing a 22GB/s number being bandied around.

Anybody got any of dem... citations?
That's the peak throughput of the de-compression block. Why would they design it twice as powerfull than needed? Wonder if it supports async jobs? De-compressing two data streams at once would be something.
Just seems alot of headroom for IF the data would compress particularly well.
 

Ar¢tos

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She's probably using ID@Xbox, and if she passes qualifications she gets a dev kit for free. This is on her Github page;

Where's the support for PlayStation?
PS4/5 development kits are far too expensive for me to obtain (they are in excess of $4000, compared to Switch's $400 and Xbox's $0 dev mode). . I apologize for any inconvience this may cause. Talk to Sony about lowering the price of their devkits to something reasonable if you are unhappy. You are of course free to make your own PS4/5 fork of Void2D, as long as it remains open source. If I do manage to get my hands on some PS4/5 devkits I may even use your code in the main branch, and of course you will be fully credited.


Well, she's telling bullshit. Ps4 dev kits cost 2500$ but Sony doesn't charge for them.
The dev kit itself costs about $2,500, but Sony is loaning them out for free for a period of one year, according to the company's "Become a Registered Developer" website. Various development sources in the article said that no dev kits have been sold as of yet. "All the indies I know got them for free," said one developer. "Sony has been amazing about kits and development thus far." Another developer stated that the company is "handing them out like candy."

This part of your quote basically explains everything :
Unless someone wants to donate me a couple of PS4/5 devkits, I have no plans to support the platform
I can already see the puppy eyes saying: please gimme daddy!
 

Panajev2001a

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Besides some of her retweets she's solid. She has some good insights into how the two systems perform. During these times she's one of the best sources of information.
She admitted not to have the PS5 devkit, why are some taking her word here as gospel (no fiat hand experience) when the Crytek developer was almost fired for doing the same and people wanted him destroyed?
Is it maybe because she is saying things about XSX that this same group of people wants to hear? Both or neither seems a more reasonable approach...
 
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rntongo

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She admitted not to have the PS5 devkit, why are some taking her word here as gospel (no fiat hand experience) when the Crytek developer was almost fired for doing the same and people wanted him destroyed? Is it maybe because she is saying things about XSX that this same group of people wants to hear? Both or neither seems a more reasons le approach...
She's said nothing that would require having access to a devkit. You should honestly level up your arguments, it's tiring having to reply to you. You make a lot of weird claims and tie devkits to everything.
 
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Panajev2001a

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You make a lot of weird claims
This is curious coming from the one peddling a secret 2-3x or more bandwidth improvement over the competition with zero evidence of this monstrous performance (and effective memory storage as you said it reduces memory use by textures by almost a factor of four) boost :rolleyes:.

She's said nothing that would require having access to a devkit. You should honestly level up your arguments, it's tiring having to reply to you. You make a lot of weird claims and tie devkits to everything.
More than just what she is saying what I have a problem with is how people are attempting to use and twist what she is saying to support their console warrish narrative and it becomes another pseudo proof in a sea of them which have littered this thread. Nothing really concrete, but as a great lawyer once said (paraphrasing): “your honour, a mountain of circumstantial evidence, half truths, and rumours almost makes up a proof, doesn’t it?”.

Also, if you want to do more than excite Xbox fanboys and do proper analysis you would need closer access to the material. What she basically said is the same thing MS said a lot earlier which is that XSX can treat the SSD as virtual memory (MS just clarified it being tied likely to a single 100 GB window). In and of itself it was and is impressive and the reason why both could skimp on RAM this generation (Xbox One X to XSX went up by only 4 GB, so it was important for MA to stress this point out).

Her comments about PS5 and more about XSX would be better informed with direct access to the devkit and docs and PS4 experience would help too as PS5 will likely e solve a lot of the system libraries and general OS approach from. No offence, she is a 2D focused indie developer who happens to have a platform preference and ties herself to some very toxic Xbox fanboys.
Both consoles have chose a very similar approach to deal with memory and particularly the SSD as extended memory resource (SSD as virtual RAM) and likely both make it clear which is which in the code as the last thing you want in a console game is a basic page file/PC style virtual memory where the code hits a performance cliffs when you have a memory page fault, but that is more to an earlier comment not what we were taking about last.

Also, since we are talking about annoying, it is also quite annoying seeing this dance between “PS5 SSD advantage does not matter” and “<insert unsupported / sometimes borderline delusional reason> why actually there is no gap and XSX is more awesome actually”. I feel like I am trying to rain on your parade mate and no, not my intention. We both agree actually that yes XSX packs a wallop, it is not a badly designed console. It gets annoying when the narrative seems to only allow two scenarios: either PS5 has an advantage that makes no difference / is wasteful or actually a secret trump card emerges that makes the difference disappear.
What follows that is fawning over tech specs, interviews, etc... just to seemingly pat oneself in the back for their console choice and to get more and more hyped, but somehow gets put forward as proof of the argument being discussed.
 
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Panajev2001a

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If you're so annoyed at the SSD of the PS5 being blown off as a major advantage why would you come to a thread that is titled Xbox Velocity Architecture to debate it?​
This is not a private chat server amongst fanboys dedicated to hype XSX and find a way to put PS5 down (I think there is one of you look for it apparently ;)) not a platform for free or paid astroturfers, but a public thread on a multiplatform forum where a rather ludicrous unsubstantiated claim was made (and I happened to read it), peddled as truth based on nothing much, and I happened to disagree with it and reserve my right to discuss it.
 
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rntongo

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This is curious coming from the one peddling a secret 2-3x or more bandwidth improvement over the competition with zero evidence of this monstrous performance (and effective memory storage as you said it reduces memory use by textures by almost a factor of four) boost :rolleyes:.


More than just what she is saying what I have a problem with us how people are attempting to use and twist what she is saying to support their console warrish narrative and it becomes another pseudo proof in a sea of them which have littered this thread. Nothing really concrete, but as a great lawyer once said (paraphrasing): “your honour, a mountain of circumstantial evidence, half truths, and rumours almost makes up a proof, doesn’t it?”.

Also, if you want to do more than excite Xbox fanboys and do proper analysis you would need closer access to the material. What she basically said is the same thing MS said a lot earlier which is that XSX can treat the SSD as virtual memory (MS just clarified it being tied likely to a single 100 GB window). In and of itself it was and is impressive and the reason why both could skimp on RAM this generation (Xbox One X to XSX went up by only 4 GB, so it was important for MA to stress this point out).

Her comments about PS5 and more about XSX would be better informed with direct access to the devkit and docs and PS4 experience would help too as PS5 will likely e solve a lot of the system libraries and general OS approach from. No offence, she is a 2D focused indie developer who happens to have a platform preference and ties herself to some very toxic Xbox fanboys.
Both consoles have chose a very similar approach to deal with memory and particularly the SSD as extended memory resource (SSD as virtual RAM) and likely both make it clear which is which in the code as the last thing you want in a console game is a basic page file/PC style virtual memory where the code hits a performance cliffs when you have a memory page fault, but that is more to an earlier comment not what we were taking about last.

Also, since we are talking about annoying, it is also quite annoying seeing this dance between “PS5 SSD advantage does not matter” and “<insert unsupported / sometimes borderline delusional reason> why actually there is no gap and XSX is more awesome actually”. I feel like I am trying to rain on your parade mate and no, not my intention. We both agree actually that yes XSX packs a wallop, it is not a badly designed console. It gets annoying when the narrative seems to only allow two scenarios: either PS5 has an advantage that makes no difference / is wasteful or actually a secret trump card emerges that makes the difference disappear.
What follows that is fawning over tech specs, interviews, etc... just to seemingly pat oneself in the back for their console choice and to get more and more hyped, but somehow gets put forward as proof of the argument being discussed.






Stop the lies.
"This is curious coming from the one peddling a secret 2-3x or more bandwidth improvement"
I don't see why you're accusing me of peddling the 2-3x figure. And worse you're embellishing by calling it secret to fit your fake narrative. It was reported at Digital Foundry in an interview with Xbox system architect Andrew Goossen 2 days before even the PS5 I/O was revealed. You can find it here.

It was also officially revealed here at the same period(March 16th).

I don't know if such blatant lies are allowed on this platform. You have not added to any civil discourse. I have learned a lot from other replies in this thread from both PS5 and XSX fans and those in between but you have stuck out like a sore thumb with your fake narratives, embellishments and sometimes outright falseheoods.
 
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Panajev2001a

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Stop the lies.
"This is curious coming from the one peddling a secret 2-3x or more bandwidth improvement"
I don't see why you're accusing me of peddling the 2-3x figure. And worse you're embellishing by calling it secrete to fit your fake narrative. It was reported at Digital Foundry in an interview with Xbox system architect Andrew Goossen before even the PS5 I/O was revealed. You can find it here.

It was also officially revealed here at the same period.

I don't know if such blatant lies are allowed on this platform. You have not added to any civil discourse. I have learned a lot from other replies in this thread from both PS5 and XSX fans and those in between but you have stuck out like a sore thumb.
They are not lies. You are trying to imply a massive giant improvement by assuming a baseline being very high, with no proof of that anywhere (you are the one making the claim that XSX’s SFS offers 2-3x or more bandwidth and memory storage savings than any other virtual texturing approach, MS never stated that directly... they are not defining the baseline and most of their comments talk about SFS/SF being an incremental improvement over other solutions like Partially Resident Textures/Tiles Reaources) , to make your box of choice appear more glorious and close the gap with the other console (curiously this change of focus on SSD bandwidth occurred after a big demo where SSD speed was quoted as a very important factor for overall scene detail and variety).

I have commented calmly and in a civil way I hope/tried to while you have raised the tone quite a few times and just seeing red out of rage does not make you right. Lots of people, myself included, have looked at the articles you pointed at and researched into the topic... did not come to the same conclusions while you just repeated the same stuff a bit louder and more confidently.
 

rntongo

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They are not lies. You are trying to imply a massive giant improvement by assuming a baseline being very high, with no proof of that anywhere (you are the one making the claim that XSX’s SFS offers 2-3x or more bandwidth and memory storage savings than any other virtual texturing approach, MS never stated that directly... they are not defining the baseline and most of their comments talk about SFS/SF being an incremental improvement over other solutions like Partially Resident Textures/Tiles Reaources) , to make your box of choice appear more glorious and close the gap with the other console (curiously this change of focus on SSD bandwidth occurred after a big demo where SSD speed was quoted as a very important factor for overall scene detail and variety).

I have commented calmly and in a civil way I hope/tried to while you have raised the tone quite a few times and just seeing red out of rage does not make you right. Lots of people, myself included, have looked at the articles you pointed at and researched into the topic... did not come to the same conclusions while you just repeated the same stuff a bit louder and more confidently.
That's your fake narrative that you're projecting onto me and you not to stop. I said unless the PS5 has a close or equivalent texture streaming solution, then the XSX could produce similar I/O performance despite having half the I/O throughput. But you have kept on with your false narrative.
 
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Panajev2001a

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That's your fake narrative that you're projecting onto me and you not to stop. I said unless the PS5 has a close or equivalent texture streaming solution, then the XSX could produce similar I/O performance despite having half the I/O throughput. But you have kept on with your false narrative.
Not a false narrative, that is misunderstanding at best or (perhaps lightweight) FUD at worst. You still have zero concrete evidence that such giant 2-3x bandwidth and memory storage saving improvement Is calculated against a baseline involving PRT/efficient virtual texturing implementations and only captures the SFS/SF benefits.
You, intentionally or not, create a scenario where it is PS5 engineers that need to prove they have something identical to not have the previously commonly accepted (by Xbox fans too) storage I/O gap disappear.

More than you being right or not, both consoles having a super duper efficiency trump card or not, what kind of irks me is how this is pushed through with a lack of evidence and actually stitching and twisting people’s statements to fit the argument they are supposed to be proving. This is beyond the fact that if MS could claim “2.4 GB/s * lzma+BCPack average compression * SFS secret sauce = 7+ GB/s“ they would, yet they are claiming 4.8 GB/s.
 
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rntongo

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Not a false narrative, that is misunderstanding at best or (perhaps lightweight) FUD at worst. You still have zero concrete evidence that such giant 2-3x bandwidth and memory storage saving improvement Is calculated against a baseline involving PRT/efficient virtual texturing implementations and only captures the SFS/SF benefits.
You, intentionally or not, create a scenario where it is PS5 engineers that need to prove they have something identical to not have the previously commonly accepted (by Xbox fans too) storage I/O gap disappear.

More than you being right or not, both consoles having a super duper efficiency trump card or not, what kind of irks me is how this is pushed through with a lack of evidence and actually stitching and twisting people’s statements to fit the argument they are supposed to be proving. This is beyond the fact that if MS could claim “2.4 GB/s * lzma+BCPack average compression * SFS secret sauce = 7+ GB/s“ they would, yet they are claiming 4.8 GB/s.
You really need to give me back my time for wasting it replying to you. Go argue with the MSFT engineers who mentioned the 2-3x figure. I wasn’t a part of Microsoft’s system team for the Xbox.
 

longdi

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SMT has nothing to do with smartshift and smartshift has nothing to do with boost mode. Stop spreading misinformation.
Smartshift is all about power budget and cooling. To push 2.23ghz, it takes up a lot of that budget, hence Sony is constrained by that and need to use smartshift aggressively. 🤷‍♀️

Series X have no mention of smart shift, so it should most of the time run sustained clocks.

Look at 10900K, Intel clocked the old skylake so high, its power budget burst beyond what you expect for a desktop cpu.
 

Panajev2001a

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Oh god panjev can you discuss this without resorting to the playing the victim card. Its begining to get old.
Victim card? I disagree, do not think I have used any card really. I guess being essentially called an idiot and noting that passes as playing the victim around your parts, but even if I were wrong on it, I think you will see a bit more text than that.
 
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oldergamer

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Well, she's telling bullshit. Ps4 dev kits cost 2500$ but Sony doesn't charge for them.

This part of your quote basically explains everything :

I can already see the puppy eyes saying: please gimme daddy!
You don't know which country she is in, do you? Or what dollar value she was talking about. Saying she is telling bullshit based on that is literal bullshit.
 

oldergamer

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Victim card? Read it again
I did. In between actual discussion there's either complaining about "xbox fanyboys" or flat out defense of sony like he was being personally attacked. Hey how many times do we need to return to the 2x to 3x effective bandwidth increase quote that nobody here made up, yet panjev want to try and use it like a baseball bat to the discussion. Its entirety unnecessary for the conversation, yet he keeps coming back to it unprompted. Its a clear victim theme. You either see it or dont.
 

psorcerer

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Nope. She says it's too expensive for her. She develops for the Switch, PC and Xbox because of that. As a hobby I might add.


Maybe this will help you further. I'll post every other tweet since you can read two at the same time;

A bunch of bullshit again.
It's a total crap that only looks "scientific".
Words are used in sentences that are devoid of any actual meaning just to sound nice for an average guy.
 

oldergamer

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Victim card? I disagree, do not think I have used any card really. I guess being essentially called an idiot and noting that passes as playing the victim around your parts, but even if I were wrong on it, I think you will see a bit more text than that.
Who "essentially" called you an idiot??? Where did that happen? Or is that how you interpreted someones response? A bit more text yes, but mostly a rehash or pointed comments directed to be a wrecking ball to that some speculative discussion. There's no rule here against speculation what people have said about the hardware. I still dont understand why you've repeatedly you've returned to a point others have moved past. You dont like that twitter quote of a 2x to 3x multiplier, why not post to the guy that said it on twitter to clarify.

Anyway ive said my piece. U can obviously do what you want, but just note there is an underlying tone in your posts at least in this thread, that makes the rest of what you spend time writing less interesting to read.
 

ZywyPL

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You, intentionally or not, create a scenario where it is PS5 engineers that need to prove they have something identical to not have the previously commonly accepted (by Xbox fans too) storage I/O gap disappear.
Blame Sony for not properly/fully revealing the PS5. After a year of complete silence since that Wired article we got an hour speech about the SSD, 3D audio, and the basic specs, and that's all we know about PS5 so far, some few basic hardware specs, nothing more, no software solutions/features have been revealed so far. You blindly assume PS5 will have everything XBX has, if not even better, but on what basis? Supposedly there are a lot of secret PS5 features that are yet to be revealed, but until they are, there's nothing to talk about (especially in a thread that has completely nothing to do with PS5 in the first place).
 

Rusco Da Vino

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I did. In between actual discussion there's either complaining about "xbox fanyboys" or flat out defense of sony like he was being personally attacked. Hey how many times do we need to return to the 2x to 3x effective bandwidth increase quote that nobody here made up, yet panjev want to try and use it like a baseball bat to the discussion. Its entirety unnecessary for the conversation, yet he keeps coming back to it unprompted. Its a clear victim theme. You either see it or dont.
Are u serious? :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Your post was totally off topic, just wanted to bait him and move the goalpost with that victim card BS that you made up.

Keep your moral lessons for yourself.
 
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FranXico

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A bunch of bullshit again.
It's a total crap that only looks "scientific".
Words are used in sentences that are devoid of any actual meaning just to sound nice for an average guy.
No, but it still doesn't prove an advantage at all.
Cache scrubbers were designed to reduce the amount of cache misses by reusing parts of the cache and reducing the amount of times cache lookup fails - they are a necessity when the frequency is so high.
Rerouting to the (slower than RAM) SSD provides an alternative fallback to when the cache is missed. It does not guarantee lower latency.
 

Ar¢tos

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A bunch of bullshit again.
It's a total crap that only looks "scientific".
Words are used in sentences that are devoid of any actual meaning just to sound nice for an average guy.
Nah, the ps5 is a piece of shit, just accept it.
Cache scrubbers that don't work, ssd speed that is fake news and false advertising, underpowered gpu and cpu on variable clocks, slow ram, delayed unannounced events with 3rd parties jumping out like there's no tomorrow, weak RT that doesn't even work because Sony forgot to add instructions to the API, BC that only works on a few hundred games, exploding dev kits due to overheating. Am I missing any of the very real confirmed problems we know of so far?
What else could we expect when they hire people that know nothing about hardware to create it? Who dafuq is this Cerny dude and what experience does he have? There are indie devs that we never heard about and that never even touched a PlayStation dev kit that would have done it 100x better!
That's why I'm getting a majestic XSX! It's better than sex and chocolate together!

Am I doing the FUD spreading correctly?
 
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Cache scrubbers allow granular cache kills, keeping cache hits high. The end. There's absolutely nothing bad about good cache invalidation.

Not sure why she thinks "The obvious solution would be flushing GPU caches when the SSD is read ".. The point is not to read the thing in the first place!

2 biggest issues in comp sci
1: Naming things
2: Cache Invalidation
3: Off-by-one errors



Actually the more I read...

she's talking nonsense.

"XVA is the better approach if you want to do processing on the data like I said above, as you can feed the CPU/GPU directly from the SSD, where as on PS5 you have to copy from SSD to RAM, then the CPU/GPU can read in the copied data from RAM and work with it "

Where is the data stored that you are reading? What the.! You always move to RAM!


"The obvious solution would be flushing GPU caches when the SSD is read, that way no matter what the GPU doesn't get a cache miss (it knows the cache is clear and to ignore cache and look in RAM) "

Flushing cache is stupid, you will just get a bunch of misses then, a cache miss isn't that you checked cache and it was empty.. The problem is the next part (Checking the source). I mean, you are caching for a reason.
 
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Dodkrake

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Smartshift is all about power budget and cooling. To push 2.23ghz, it takes up a lot of that budget, hence Sony is constrained by that and need to use smartshift aggressively. 🤷‍♀️

Series X have no mention of smart shift, so it should most of the time run sustained clocks.

Look at 10900K, Intel clocked the old skylake so high, its power budget burst beyond what you expect for a desktop cpu.
How can you be so wrong?

Smartshift is designed to divert power budget to and from the CPU / GPU when the task at hand requires it. Something like this

  • Total Power Budget - 250W
  • CPU Power Budget - 50W
  • GPU Power Budget - 200W
Considering the scenario above, you can divert any of the 200W budget from your GPU to your CPU when the former is not requiring them. The same can be said for the opposite. This is what smartshift is, and has nothing to do with being constrained by it or not or it being used agressively. The PS5 can run both CPU and GPU at peak indefinitely (peak being those exemplified 250W).

The Series X does indeed not have smartshift, and it will run sustained clocks all the time. This is not necessarily a good or bad thing, since we are not able to compare one to the other.
 

psorcerer

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No, but it still doesn't prove an advantage at all.
Cache scrubbers were designed to reduce the amount of cache misses by reusing parts of the cache and reducing the amount of times cache lookup fails - they are a necessity when the frequency is so high.
Rerouting to the (slower than RAM) SSD provides an alternative fallback to when the cache is missed. It does not guarantee lower latency.
How do you "reroute"? It's just a bunch of plausible sounding crap. Don't read into it.
 
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killatopak

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I haven’t read anything about this yet but the title made me do a double take.

4.8. gb/s and 100gb instantly does not mesh well. That’s far from instant.
 
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phil_t98

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I haven’t read anything about this yet but the title made me do a double take.

4.8. gb/s and 100gb instantly does not mesh well. That’s far from instant.
the question is how much will be needed on screen at any one time? if a game is lets say 8-12 hours long and the whole game is 100 gig how much will be on screen at any one time
 

longdi

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How can you be so wrong?

Smartshift is designed to divert power budget to and from the CPU / GPU when the task at hand requires it. Something like this

  • Total Power Budget - 250W
  • CPU Power Budget - 50W
  • GPU Power Budget - 200W
Considering the scenario above, you can divert any of the 200W budget from your GPU to your CPU when the former is not requiring them. The same can be said for the opposite. This is what smartshift is, and has nothing to do with being constrained by it or not or it being used agressively. The PS5 can run both CPU and GPU at peak indefinitely (peak being those exemplified 250W).

The Series X does indeed not have smartshift, and it will run sustained clocks all the time. This is not necessarily a good or bad thing, since we are not able to compare one to the other.
Nah it is more like this, assuming both consoles will have a 300W psu as they will be limited by their size and cooler design.

On an arbitary scale :
Series X needs 260W to produce a sustained '100' in GPU and another 40W to have sustained '100' in CPU.
PS5 needs 290W to produce a '86' in GPU, so they are left with 10W to produce a '25' in CPU (assuming Zen2 are nearly equals). PS5 developers need to shift between them smartly.
Hence im guessing PS5 may need a bigger 320W PSU to feed the CPU somemore because of the 'fast' GPU.

Wide and slower vs narrow and higher clocked. 🤷‍♀️
 
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killatopak

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the question is how much will be needed on screen at any one time? if a game is lets say 8-12 hours long and the whole game is 100 gig how much will be on screen at any one time

FF7 is around 30 hours and it’s already a 100 gig game. Granted a part of it is from cgi cutscenes.

On the contrary Star Citizen, considering how big it is and how many assets it should have, it only requires around 80gb.

Looking at the Unreal 5 demo, they said they were using film assets so the texture resolution would be big and would translate to a bigger file size. Yet one of the advantages of a higher i/o speed would mean almost no duplicate texture or object files needed which bogged current gen file sizes.

To be quite honest, I don’t know the answer to that since there is literally 0 games released solely for next gen yet. Long story short, nobody knows except the devs who are currently working on next gen exclusive games and even then they may not fully utilize it in the first year or two.
 
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score01

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Matt @ ERA said:
The PS5’s drive is significantly faster in any situation, and that does allow for things that can’t be duplicated on the SX.

Just like how the SX will be able to reach a graphical fidelity a bit above the PS5.
There is no secret sauce that boosts SSD speed or GPU power past their respective released specs. People need to accept these basic facts about the next gen consoles and move on.
 
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phil_t98

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FF7 is around 30 hours and it’s already a 100 gig game. Granted a part of it is from cgi cutscenes.

On the contrary Star Citizen, considering how big it is and how many assets it should have, it only requires around 80gb.

Looking at the Unreal 5 demo, they said they were using film assets so the texture resolution would be big and would translate to a bigger file size. Yet one of the advantages of a higher i/o speed would mean almost no duplicate texture or object files needed which bogged current gen file sizes.

To be quite honest, I don’t know the answer to that since there is literally 0 games released solely for next gen yet. Long story short, nobody knows except the devs who are currently working on next gen exclusive games and even then they may not fully utilize it in the first year or two.
but we do know that final fantasy is 100 gig and 30 hours playtime. 100 gig won't be needed all the time, how much will be needed nobody knows but we can guess.
 

killatopak

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but we do know that final fantasy is 100 gig and 30 hours playtime. 100 gig won't be needed all the time, how much will be needed nobody knows but we can guess.
Final fantasy is a current gen game though. Not saying that 100gb will be needed the whole time but I would assume it’s a step up from this gen at the very least considering the baseline of textures and such isn’t 1080p(XBO/ base PS4).
 

FranXico

Gold Member
Dec 7, 2010
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This Louise person is not a dev. Word Salad basically has confused a lot of you.
Thanks for the explanation.

I thought it was odd, but with all the talk of "virtual RAM in the SSD", I started to think that maybe there was something more to it. No matter how one looks at it, it doesn't make sense. The assets always have to end up in the RAM, and constantly flushing the cache on purpose is stupid, you might as well not have it there then.
 

ToadMan

Member
Dec 2, 2018
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Smartshift is all about power budget and cooling. To push 2.23ghz, it takes up a lot of that budget, hence Sony is constrained by that and need to use smartshift aggressively. 🤷‍♀️

Series X have no mention of smart shift, so it should most of the time run sustained clocks.

Look at 10900K, Intel clocked the old skylake so high, its power budget burst beyond what you expect for a desktop cpu.
The bolded is an-over simplification of the paradigm.

Series X has exactly the same constraint of power vs workload as the PS5 does (and indeed all computing devices do) - Series X just doesn't offer a choice to devs - they must work within the constraint MS gives them. They cannot exceed the TDP of the GPU even if the system has TDP to spare.

Sony is offering devs a way to increase the possible workload of the CPU or GPU at the developer's choice, by allocating the total TDP dynamically - this offers additional flexibility to developers.

In fact this system is the very reason Sony can push such a high clock - without it they'd be running the GPU at similar clock speeds to xsex which is around 20% slower. Xsex can't use a faster clock - there's insufficient power available so it would be a waste of time. PS5 can use the extra clock because devs can "choose" (by choose I mean target a low CPU workload leaving power to spare) to allocate enough power to the GPU to make use of that fast GPU clock.

SmartShift is not about varying clocks. The variable clocks Sony are talking about are their own solution for maintaining power use within the chassis TDP - we have yet to see what Sony's cooling solution is and that is critical to understanding how much processing capability the PS5 will have.
 

Dodkrake

Member
Feb 28, 2020
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Nah it is more like this, assuming both consoles will have a 300W psu as they will be limited by their size and cooler design.

On an arbitary scale :
Series X needs 260W to produce a sustained '100' in GPU and another 40W to have sustained '100' in CPU.
PS5 needs 290W to produce a '86' in GPU, so they are left with 10W to produce a '25' in CPU (assuming Zen2 are nearly equals). PS5 developers need to shift between them smartly.
Hence im guessing PS5 may need a bigger 320W PSU to feed the CPU somemore because of the 'fast' GPU.

Wide and slower vs narrow and higher clocked. 🤷‍♀️
God, more FUD. Please stop with this non-sense. That's not what this is, and Cerny was clear: "both can run at peak indefinitely".

  • If your programming requires more from your CPU than its allocated power budget, it will downclock the GPU. Same for the opposite scenario.
  • your 250W are accounting for MAX power draw in normal conditions where your programming is optimized.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
15,438
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I did. In between actual discussion there's either complaining about "xbox fanyboys" or flat out defense of sony like he was being personally attacked. Hey how many times do we need to return to the 2x to 3x effective bandwidth increase quote that nobody here made up, yet panjev want to try and use it like a baseball bat to the discussion. Its entirety unnecessary for the conversation, yet he keeps coming back to it unprompted. Its a clear victim theme. You either see it or dont.
If the idea is to make an unsupported claim to shift a narrative around it and by force of repetition get it established well, FUD tactics remain FUD tactics of that were the case.

The quote is not made up, what is made up / implied is the baseline for the comparison which the original quote in the DF article does not provide. The unsubstantiated part is the assumption this giant 2-3x efficiency leap is over virtual texturing implementations (says taking advantage of PRT): MS never stated this to be the case and you can try and provide a quote for it. Glad to shut up about it if it is the case.
 

longdi

Ni hao ma, fellow kids?
Jun 7, 2004
5,866
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God, more FUD. Please stop with this non-sense. That's not what this is, and Cerny was clear: "both can run at peak indefinitely".

  • If your programming requires more from your CPU than its allocated power budget, it will downclock the GPU. Same for the opposite scenario.
  • your 250W are accounting for MAX power draw in normal conditions where your programming is optimized.
Nah i am talking about power budget which is the reason here.
Where did Mark Sony said indefinitely btw?

Modern processors are complicated that seeing the onscreen frequency is not indicative. They can boost to 2.2hz@100w but the rendered output may not be as good as when it is running 2ghz@120w etc.

Hence we use power/tdp. As this is the limitation on both consoles, by their cost & design, so there is your cap.
Besides if both consoles run at sustained peak, Series X will still deliver better results! :messenger_bicep:
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
15,438
4,708
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Who "essentially" called you an idiot??? Where did that happen? Or is that how you interpreted someones response?

One of the examples, maybe not the best but I think I was not exactly the condescending one in this scenario, albeit I can see how I was sounding less and less nice and cam each additional page this went on. That is fair to say. I am not going to go through the thread with a fine tooth comb though...

A bit more text yes, but mostly a rehash or pointed comments directed to be a wrecking ball to that some speculative discussion. There's no rule here against speculation what people have said about the hardware. I still dont understand why you've repeatedly you've returned to a point others have moved past. You dont like that twitter quote of a 2x to 3x multiplier, why not post to the guy that said it on twitter to clarify.
I do not think there is a rule prohibiting from re-exploring a point when that is a.) not settled and presented as a fact and b.) the starting point for other discussion in the same thread which would build upon it. Speculative discussion should not be discouraged that we agree. Debate on that should not either. This is not a place pro or against any box, I do not think it is a place to try to divert narratives or try to create new ones with sometimes disingenuous arguments: anyways beauty of free speech and open discussion and all that.

Anyway ive said my piece. U can obviously do what you want, but just note there is an underlying tone in your posts at least in this thread, that makes the rest of what you spend time writing less interesting to read.
This is fair, I can at least re-read my posts and check on my tone. Right now at least I disagree with your assessment though, I still think it was not improper / nasty either that it would disqualify the rest of what I was saying, but introspection does not hurt and I may be very wrong on this so honestly apologies if so.
 
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oldergamer

Member
Aug 20, 2004
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If the idea is to make an unsupported claim to shift a narrative around it and by force of repetition get it established well, FUD tactics remain FUD tactics of that were the case.

The quote is not made up, what is made up / implied is the baseline for the comparison which the original quote in the DF article does not provide. The unsubstantiated part is the assumption this giant 2-3x efficiency leap is over virtual texturing implementations (says taking advantage of PRT): MS never stated this to be the case and you can try and provide a quote for it. Glad to shut up about it if it is the case.
I'm not sure what you mean, First it wasn't specifically PRT, it was SFS and the specific features that the twitter user mentioned. I see you keep resorting to just saying PRT, but i don't see the point if that is part of a larger feature there would be no need to single it out.

Second, I thought the guy on twitter that alluded to the effective 2x to 3x increase in memory/bandwidth worked for MS? Sure, MS hasn't officially said this yet, but they also said they would talk more about it later. If you are claiming that isn't what the twitter guy (I forget his name at the moment, forgive me) was actually saying, what do you think he was talking about?
 
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THE:MILKMAN

Gold Member
Mar 31, 2006
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Midlands, UK
At the end of the day both started with the same ingredients but have cooked different dishes. Both have made compromises in reaching the finished dish.

I just want to taste the games now. Me hungry.