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[Trojita]

Phew, this should keep him away from Final Fantasy. Too bad for Level 5 though. Though it wouldn't bother me too much as long as he doesn't touch DQ or Dark Cloud if L5 decided to stop being butts and make 3 already.

How can you hate Matsuno?

 

[HK-47]

How can you hate Matsuno?

Psychological trauma from being unprepared for the Wiegraf battle

His taste never recovered.

 

[Augemitbutter]

Psychological trauma from being unprepared for the Wiegraf battle

His taste never recovered.

that was one of the biggest shits i've experienced in gaming but i still love the guy.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

You do realize the ADB system wasn't created by Matsuno, right?

In fact I think it's the only game he's directed but not done the game design for.

And, just to shake your worldview even more, the guy who designed ADB(and was also a co-Director on XII) created the battle systems for VI and IX. BAM! Suck it!

Yeah, I know Ito did ADB and I still haven't forgiven him for that. I'm talking about the guy's stories outside of Madworld.

Psychological trauma from being unprepared for the Wiegraf battle

His taste never recovered.

Oddly enough, Gaffgarion gave me more trouble than Wiegraf as a kid.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Yeah, I know Ito did ADB and I still haven't forgiven him for that. I'm talking about the guy's stories outside of Madworld.

It's okay.

We know all about your taste in stories.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

How can you hate Matsuno?

I don't ACTUALLY hate him. I just think he's super overrated and he doesn't write the kinds of stories I like in the kinds of worlds I want. More often than not, people use him as some kind of standard/exception for JRPG storytelling when it seems to me that the kind of stuff he does appeals more to WRPG fans. It's just annoying seeing everyone shit on the rest of the genre and praise this guy when a good majority of his stuff isn't really comparable. It isn't a matter of quality, just regional tastes.

 

[HK-47]

It's okay.

We know all about your taste in stories.

You remember the Poe thread?

Good times.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Psychological trauma from being unprepared for the Wiegraf battle

His taste never recovered.

I remember, on my first try, just running around the stage when I knew I couldn't stand toe to toe. Its amazing how it felt like a battle where you're meant to die. lol nope.

 

[gatotsu911]

The problem with "turn-based random battles" isn't so much the "turn-based" part as the "random" part. The solution to the problem, which has been (or should have been) evident since the mid-90s, is simple: don't make battles random. It worked out pretty well for Chrono Trigger, the Mario RPGs, Baten Kaitos, Persona 3 and Dragon Quest IX, to name just a few. Why random battles didn't die out 10 years ago is completely beyond me. I cannot think of a single game that is or would be better off with random battles. I mean, simply making enemies visible on the map isn't an end-all solution to the age-old question of how to keep mook battles in RPGs from becoming tedious and frustrating, but it's a pretty good start.

Turn-based battles, on the other hand, are fine. There seems to be a prevalent attitude within the industry and among the consumer base these days that real-time combat is inherently preferable to turn-based combat. I must emphatically disagree: if anything, I wish more games were turn-based. The way I see it, if the combat in an action-RPG isn't going to be as swift, smooth and sharp as combat in a pure action game, it shouldn't be action-based to begin with. I'd much rather have a decent turn-based battle system than the crude, sluggish, gloopy combat that most action-RPGs go with. I might actually enjoy the combat in, say, BioShock if it were controlled with a strategic menu-based battle system rather than playing as a crude FPS where every encounter just makes me wish I was playing Half-Life instead. Likewise, from what I've played of Final Fantasy XII and XIII, I spent most of the time during battles pining for the silky-smooth turn-based combat of Final Fantasy X, or even wishing for the ATB system back (and I was never a big fan of the ATB system to begin with!).

 

[cosmicblizzard]

You remember the Poe thread?

Good times.

I'm going to bump that when this novel I'm writing gets published

Spoiler

by a friend in publishing

.

 

[Ra1den]

No it's pretty easy to call the gameplay of something like FFX fun. Why the else would I play it if it wasn't?

There are other reasons to play JRPGs besides the battles, such as plot.

But as I said, the gameplay as a whole (as in, the entire experience) can be fun, even if fighting random battles against fodder enemies via turn based menus is not. To be absolutely clear, I consider almost all of the FF games to have very fun gameplay overall. But I see a weakness in the amount of time spent fighting meaningless battles, particularly when the battle system boils down to me selecting the same few commands over and over in a turn based menu. This is not just the FF series of course.

With the different game design of FF12, this was no longer a problem, as typical battles were no longer tedious, but boss battles and such remained challenging and exciting, with tons of player input needed. This doesn't mean I consider FF12 to be the best one, as I already stated, but it had what I feel to be the best battle system.

By the way, I think FFX is one of the better battle systems in the series.

 

[Aeana]

The problem with "turn-based random battles" isn't so much the "turn-based" part as the "random" part. The solution to the problem, which has been (or should have been) evident since the mid-90s, is simple: don't make battles random. It worked out pretty well for Chrono Trigger, the Mario RPGs, Baten Kaitos, Persona 3 and Dragon Quest IX, to name just a few. Why random battles didn't die out 10 years ago is completely beyond me. I cannot think of a single game that is or would be better off with random battles. I mean, simply making enemies visible on the map isn't an end-all solution to the age-old question of how to keep mook battles in RPGs from becoming tedious and frustrating, but it's a pretty good start.

Non-random battles have been around for just as long as random battles. There's nothing "archaic" or outdated about random battles. They have their place. I would also like to say that DQ9 is a wonderful example of how visible enemies can be done poorly because they add nothing to the game - they still spawn randomly, often right on top of you, and there is no advantage to running into them from behind or anything of that nature, and avoiding enemies in dungeons isn't super easy either.

As for an example of a game where random battles are better, I would point at Shin Megami Tensei 3. The atmosphere of the areas in that game would be completely shattered if there were enemies bouncing around all over the place. The crushing feeling of solitude would be completely lost.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I don't ACTUALLY hate him. I just think he's super overrated and he doesn't write the kinds of stories I like in the kinds of worlds I want. More often than not, people use him as some kind of standard/exception for JRPG storytelling when it seems to me that the kind of stuff he does appeals more to WRPG fans. It's just annoying seeing everyone shit on the rest of the genre and praise this guy when a good majority of his stuff isn't really comparable. It isn't a matter of quality, just regional tastes.

Really? Because Matsuno tends to use character archetypes from all around, only he subverts the shit out of them.

If you want something that's comparable: Ramza is pretty much what SE was trying to do with Snow(i.e. deconstruct and reconstruct the archetypal naive optimistic hero). Ramza's character arc is just plain better developed, though. Especially since his reconstruction isn't a confusing backstep like Snow's is.

I'm going to bump that when this novel I'm writing gets published

Spoiler

by a friend in publishing

.

What's the title?

 

[decoyplatypus]

The problem with "turn-based random battles" isn't so much the "turn-based" part as the "random" part. The solution to the problem, which has been (or should have been) evident since the mid-90s, is simple: don't make battles random. It worked out pretty well for Chrono Trigger, the Mario RPGs, Baten Kaitos, Persona 3 and Dragon Quest IX, to name just a few. Why random battles didn't die out 10 years ago is completely beyond me. I cannot think of a single game that is or would be better off with random battles. I mean, simply making enemies visible on the map isn't an end-all solution to the age-old question of how to keep mook battles in RPGs from becoming tedious and frustrating, but it's a pretty good start.

Turn-based battles, on the other hand, are fine. There seems to be a prevalent attitude within the industry and among the consumer base these days that real-time combat is inherently preferable to turn-based combat. I must emphatically disagree: if anything, I wish more games were turn-based. The way I see it, if the combat in an action-RPG isn't going to be as swift, smooth and sharp as combat in a pure action game, it shouldn't be action-based to begin with. I'd much rather have a decent turn-based battle system than the crude, sluggish, gloopy combat that most action-RPGs go with. I might actually enjoy the combat in, say, BioShock if it were controlled with a strategic menu-based battle system rather than playing as a crude FPS where every encounter just makes me wish I was playing Half-Life instead. Likewise, from what I've played of Final Fantasy XII and XIII, I spent most of the time during battles pining for the silky-smooth turn-based combat of Final Fantasy X, or even wishing for the ATB system back (and I was never a big fan of the ATB system to begin with!).

I agree with your take on turn-based battles (even your specific opinion on Bioshock), but I think random encounters are still a valid gameplay mechanic. Look at Etrian Odyssey or SMT: Nocturne. They use random encounters to create tension during dungeon exploration, and they force the player to strategize around their generally weaker ability to control the number (and kind) of enemies they'll face.

 

[GhaleonQ]

I don't ACTUALLY hate him. I just think he's super overrated and he doesn't write the kinds of stories I like in the kinds of worlds I want. More often than not, people use him as some kind of standard/exception for JRPG storytelling when it seems to me that the kind of stuff he does appeals more to WRPG fans. It's just annoying seeing everyone shit on the rest of the genre and praise this guy when a good majority of his stuff isn't really comparable. It isn't a matter of quality, just regional tastes.

I can see this as a legitimate point-of-view, but in order to deflect East/West stuff in the future, drop the regional bit. I don't dispute that Western fantasy has similarities to his work, but if you've ever read any country's historical epics (Japan's and China's included), you'll know that the style bridges all borders.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Really? Because Matsuno tends to use character archetypes from all around, only he subverts the shit out of them.

If you want something that's comparable: Ramza is pretty much what SE was trying to do with Snow(i.e. deconstruct and reconstruct the archetypal naive optimistic hero). Ramza's character arc is just plain better developed, though. Especially since his reconstruction isn't a confusing backstep like Snow's is.

Eh, I don't know if I would really call Ramza a deconstruction of the shounen hero. I mean things take a turn for the worse pretty quickly, so it's not like he could keep up the optimism. His development was indeed impressive though.

What's the title?

Not telling, but I will say the genre is sci-fi horror. Put it on hold to write this extreme combat game like DMC though. Should be done in a month or so.

 

[Ra1den]

The problem with "turn-based random battles" isn't so much the "turn-based" part as the "random" part. The solution to the problem, which has been (or should have been) evident since the mid-90s, is simple: don't make battles random. It worked out pretty well for Chrono Trigger, the Mario RPGs, Baten Kaitos, Persona 3 and Dragon Quest IX, to name just a few. Why random battles didn't die out 10 years ago is completely beyond me. I cannot think of a single game that is or would be better off with random battles. I mean, simply making enemies visible on the map isn't an end-all solution to the age-old question of how to keep mook battles in RPGs from becoming tedious and frustrating, but it's a pretty good start.

Turn-based battles, on the other hand, are fine. There seems to be a prevalent attitude within the industry and among the consumer base these days that real-time combat is inherently preferable to turn-based combat. I must emphatically disagree: if anything, I wish more games were turn-based. The way I see it, if the combat in an action-RPG isn't going to be as swift, smooth and sharp as combat in a pure action game, it shouldn't be action-based to begin with. I'd much rather have a decent turn-based battle system than the crude, sluggish, gloopy combat that most action-RPGs go with. I might actually enjoy the combat in, say, BioShock if it were controlled with a strategic menu-based battle system rather than playing as a crude FPS where every encounter just makes me wish I was playing Half-Life instead. Likewise, from what I've played of Final Fantasy XII and XIII, I spent most of the time during battles pining for the silky-smooth turn-based combat of Final Fantasy X, or even wishing for the ATB system back (and I was never a big fan of the ATB system to begin with!).

I agree that turn based battles are better than typical action RPG battle systems. Actually, there is nothing I hate more than button mashing RPG battle systems, as in, just mash attack over and over (like Dark Cloud and Rogue Galaxy...appropriate for this thread). Or something like Diablo. Just click click click. Thats not fun, and thats part of why I don't play many Western ARPGs.

FF12 and FF13 though were both very smooth and very strategic, and I would not lump either of those into the typical crappy ARPG battle systems. I'm especially surprised at your inclusion of FF13, as that flowed just like any ATB game. And really, even FF12 was still pretty much ATB, the only difference being free movement and the gambit system.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I can see this as a legitimate point-of-view, but in order to deflect East/West stuff in the future, drop the regional bit. I don't dispute that Western fantasy has similarities to his work, but if you've ever read any country's historical epics (Japan's and China's included), you'll know that the style bridges all borders.

I'm specifically talking about storytelling in the context of WRPGs and JRPGs and modern appeal to each. I realize stuff from both sides of the Pacific is generally far removed from its classical counterparts in many aspects. Don't want to get in a discussion about quality because it won't end well, but the common approach from the east just appeals to me more despite massive complaints about the writing as of late.

But I agree, region doesn't mean everything and if it was up to me, the genre wouldn't even be separated by region with many western devs making "JRPGs" and vice versa.

 

[Acrylic7]

maybe with this L-5 can start making good games.

I liked Rouge Galaxy.

Hated the story, but like it.

 

[Digital-Hero]

compact, speedy games?

We don't want Matsuno having another mental breakdown or what he had on FFXII.

 

[Quixzlizx]

He'll be working not on massive productions, but compact games that can be released in a speedy fashion. His first Level-5 game is being described as something that his fans' nieces and nephews can enjoy.

Master chef cooking Spaghettios.

 

[Ra1den]

We don't want Matsuno having another mental breakdown or what he had on FFXII.

Was it ever revealed what his illness actually was during FF12?

 

[duckroll]

Meh, who cares. Has-been director joining a kiddy publisher.

Was it ever revealed what his illness actually was during FF12?

Incompetence.

 

[birdchili]

so glad he's making games again. he was good at it. best of luck.

(my nephew is two, but i'm pretty-sure he would like a nice tactical rpg...)

 

[Vic]

He'll be working not on massive productions, but compact games that can be released in a speedy fashion. His first Level-5 game is being described as something that his fans' nieces and nephews can enjoy.

How we're talking about 18+ nephews and nieces?

 

[BlazingDarkness]

Kids game?
What a waste

 

[Aeana]

Meh, who cares. Has-been director joining a kiddy publisher.



Incompetence.

We've skipped right to depression, folks.

 

[Eusis]

As for an example of a game where random battles are better, I would point at Shin Megami Tensei 3. The atmosphere of the areas in that game would be completely shattered if there were enemies bouncing around all over the place. The crushing feeling of solitude would be completely lost.

Nice shorthand too for whether or not you can talk to a demon. In fact, that aspect would be RUINED if there were visible encounters. Sure, they could distinguish them with generic on screen representations like Persona, but then it'd just leave it baffling that the ones you can talk too have their battle model while these visible encounters don't.

 

[Truth101]

Meh, who cares. Has-been director joining a kiddy publisher.



Incompetence.

Wait, wait. Seems like you have just given up on everything that was once good in the world.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Eh, I don't know if I would really call Ramza a deconstruction of the shounen hero. I mean things take a turn for the worse pretty quickly, so it's not like he could keep up the optimism. His development was indeed impressive though.

I never said shounen, but fine then another example.

I'll even be lazy and use XIII again.

Catiua vs Lightning

They are both overprotective older sisters who come off as rather cold. They both practically raised their younger siblings after a death in the family.

Spoiler

What makes Catiua a million times more interesting is that she isn't just "acts like an asshole but has a heart of gold" or "is rude but only wants what's best for her brother/sister", she is a legitimate total bitch. Though her pacifist leanings hide this very well initially.

Lightning want's to protect Serah because Serah is her sister, there is literally nothing else to explore about their relationship. It makes sense, but is also extremely boring. I don't mind a normal loving relationship, but take it somewhere interesting please. The best we get is Lightning acknowledging she was too overprotective, just according to cliche. We barely even know anything about Serah other than the fact that she and Snow were smanging.... which I guess means she's a poor judge of character.

Catiua wants to protect Denam because she loves him, but also because she's selfish. She's scared of being alone, and she takes the idea of "blood is thicker than water" so far that it borders on the incestuous. She's protecting Denam more for her own sake than his.

Catiua's development away from this and into a more generally agreeable person is completely optional, by the way.

Oh and her character arc actually has a point in the story, it isn't just incidental.

 

[Zekes!]

FFXII is my favourite FF.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to seeing what he does at L5. I love the Layton games, but their RPGs (outside of their work on DQ) have never sat right with me.

 

[Nirolak]

We've skipped right to depression, folks.

Now that Matsuno is gone and Minagawa was put on FFXIV, I'm assuming Tactics Ogre is dead again.

Probably anything else that team was planning as well.

Perhaps they'll one day get to work on a less a different doomed project, like Square Enix's other MMO.

 

[duckroll]

We've skipped right to depression, folks.

Look, I'm not depressed. Just because I booked another 4 visits to my shrink does not mean anything. You see these pills I have to take every 5 hours? They're labeled. DRAGON QUEST. LAYTON. GUNDAM AGE. But it's not enough. Now I need more. Shit, I'm already starting to shake. I'm sorry, I have to go.

 

[Aeana]

Look, I'm not depressed. Just because I booked another 4 visits to my shrink does not mean anything. You see these pills I have to take every 5 hours? They're labeled. DRAGON QUEST. LAYTON. GUNDAM AGE. But it's not enough. Now I need more. Shit, I'm already starting to shake. I'm sorry, I have to go.

The next stage is acceptance. Don't worry; you'll get there.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Someone's bitter.

 

[Truth101]

Look, I'm not depressed. Just because I booked another 4 visits to my shrink does not mean anything. You see these pills I have to take every 5 hours? They're labeled. DRAGON QUEST. LAYTON. GUNDAM AGE. But it's not enough. Now I need more. Shit, I'm already starting to shake. I'm sorry, I have to go.

New Dragon Quest pill is coming out in September if that makes you feel any better.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Look, I'm not depressed. Just because I booked another 4 visits to my shrink does not mean anything. You see these pills I have to take every 5 hours? They're labeled. DRAGON QUEST. LAYTON. GUNDAM AGE. But it's not enough. Now I need more. Shit, I'm already starting to shake. I'm sorry, I have to go.

*hugs* It'll be alright. We're all here with you.

 

[BocoDragon]

Maybe his nieces and nephews like deep strategy tactics wrapped in a medieval tale of political intrigue?

 

[Aeana]

New Dragon Quest pill is coming out in September if that makes you feel any better.

If Level-5 is working on DQ10, that won't make him feel any better at all.

 

[Nirolak]

New Dragon Quest pill is coming out in September if that makes you feel any better.

He means he needs pills to deal with what Level 5 has done to those series. :lol

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Well, someone's angry.

 

[duckroll]

Maybe his nieces and nephews like deep strategy tactics wrapped in a medieval tale of political intrigue?

He's not talking about his nieces and nephews. He's talking about our nieces and nephews. The really annoying ones who grew up playing Counterstrike and GTA. Yeah. Them.

 

[Nirolak]

So, what do we think Hino will kidify next?

I notice more Evangelion games lately. Perhaps Hino can make the next one, and a tie in anime revival too.

 

[Ra1den]

Maybe his nieces and nephews like deep strategy tactics wrapped in a medieval tale of political intrigue?

Good point. There is hope after all

 

[Gravijah]

He's not talking about his nieces and nephews. He's talking about our nieces and nephews. The really annoying ones who grew up playing Counterstrike and GTA. Yeah. Them.

But a Japanese GTA would be cool.

 

[Truth101]

He means he needs pills to deal with what Level 5 has done to those series. :lol

I'm new to the Level-5 dislike (,>_<,..)

 

[Piecake]

Maybe his nieces and nephews like deep strategy tactics wrapped in a medieval tale of political intrigue?

or dense dungeon crawlers set in an abandoned city and wrapped in a medieval tale of political intrigue?

 

[Nirolak]

Good point. There is hope after all

Oh, I'm going to go out on a limb and say he would have included his fans in that statement instead of just their younger relatives if that was the case.

 

[Enron]

Look, I'm not depressed. Just because I booked another 4 visits to my shrink does not mean anything. You see these pills I have to take every 5 hours? They're labeled. DRAGON QUEST. LAYTON. GUNDAM AGE. But it's not enough. Now I need more. Shit, I'm already starting to shake. I'm sorry, I have to go.

I've found that those pills tend to work best when chased with whiskey.

 

[duckroll]

So, what do we think Hino will kidify next?

I notice more Evangelion games lately. Perhaps Hino can make the next one, and a tie in anime revival too.

Hahahahahahahaha. Your attempt to troll me has failed, good sir!

a) There's an anime revivial of Evangelion going on right now, which is why you're noticing more games. They're still making the movies, won't be finished for years.

b) I don't give a shit about Evangelion games, so a bad one won't mean shit to me, they're ALL crap. Except maybe the upcoming Grasshopper one. That one could be rad.