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YCbCr 4:4:4( 2 ) or RGB Full( limited) For Gaming ?

Angel_DvA

Member
Nov 1, 2014
4,619
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Which of these do I want to use for gaming over HDMI to my TV ? I've found a lot of conflicting information on this subject and i don't really know what to do because i'm so confuse right now...

I have tried both YcbCr 4:4:4 and limited RGB 4:4:4 pixel formats in my Geforce panel, but I cant figure out which one looks best, I have a gaming PC over HDMI to my TV and the Xbox One set to limited, same with my PS4. ( My TV can support full format but I've read that TV should always be at limited format so ... )

which pixel format do you got? what should I use on my PC/console ? thanks for any help...

( It's my first topic and I'm not a native English speaker so I'm sorry if my English is rough as Hell )
 

Izuna

Banned
Nov 23, 2010
28,298
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England
This is so confusing, but you should make sure both your consoles and TV are set the same so, full:full and limited:limited.

If your TV is compatible, I guess RGB and YCBCR will appear the same.

--

Oh if your TV does support Full, make sure it is set to that and use it instead.
 

Angel_DvA

Member
Nov 1, 2014
4,619
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So I should use RBG limited on my consoles with limited format on my TV but on my PC I Should use YCbCr or stay on RBG ?

I don't understand why they're making so much format lol, confusing as hell, I read that games are made in RBG when movies in YCbCr...
 

GReeeeN

Member
May 22, 2014
575
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Depends on your TV I guess, if it's full use full, if it's limited use limited

I'm running full on my ps4, XBONE and pc, although the pc does give crushed blacks on my TV for some reason, which I've learnt to accept as limited makes it look extremely washed out
 
Oct 11, 2013
3,293
5
370
Depends on your TV I guess, if it's full use full, if it's limited use limited

I'm running full on my ps4, XBONE and pc, although the pc does give crushed blacks on my TV for some reason, which I've learnt to accept as limited makes it look extremely washed out

Are you using an Nvidia graphics card over HDMI? If so, you should use this toggle program, it may help: http://blog.metaclassofnil.com/?p=83
 

scitek

Member
Aug 23, 2005
17,119
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1,550
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twitch.tv
I have everything set to limited except my PC, which automatically defaults to YCbCr444 regardless of how many times I change it in the Nvidia control panel. It's fine, my TV supports 4:4:4 chroma, but it's still annoying.

Are you using an Nvidia graphics card over HDMI? If so, you should use this toggle program, it may help: http://blog.metaclassofnil.com/?p=83

Nvidia recently built the ability to choose into the control panel itself, so this toggler should no longer be needed. The problem I've found is that now that they let you choose it on your own, it always switches itself back to YCbCr444 no matter what. Unless it's just a bug with my PC in particular that's remained constant through various driver updates.

My tv defaults to full along with the PS4. If I switch both to limited the colors look washed out and clarity pop is lost.

You have to recalibrate the settings once you change it or it'll look washed out.
 
Apr 9, 2014
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My tv defaults to full along with the PS4. If I switch both to limited the colors look washed out and clarity pop is lost.
 

antti-la

Member
May 22, 2012
175
2
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Finland
Good article on this and discussion at the bottom.

Referencehometheater.com - RGB: Full vs. Limited

With a TV you should always use the RGB Limited setting. Limited refers to the values being limited to 16-235 and not the Full 0-255 scale. With TV and Movies, it leaves them untouched because they are already in the 16-235 range. When you play a video game, it will convert the 0-255 range to the 16-235 range. If it did not do this, shadow and highlights would be pure black or pure white, and the image will look off. You aren’t losing anything by using RGB Limited, but if you use RGB Full with a TV you are losing details.


Q: Since video games use the Full RGB palette, shouldn’t I use Full RGB when playing video games and then Limited RGB for movies?

A: No. Most video games are designed using the Full RGB spectrum since they are designed on computers which use that. However, when you are playing a Full RGB game and your video game console is set to Limited, it takes this into account. The video levels are shifted from 0-255 down to 16-235 and the gamma curve is adjusted to match a TV as well. You aren’t losing anything as the system is accounting for this.

Q: When I choose limited, I get a washed out image. When I choose full, shadows are crushed. Which is correct?

A: If you are on a TV, then Limited is still correct. The washed-out image is caused by your brightness setting being too high. You should use a calibration disc, like the free AVS 709 disc, World of Wonder, or Spears & Munsil, to set this correctly. Then your black levels will be correct in limited, you will see shadow details, and it won’t be washed out.

Q: My TV supports Full mode, shouldn’t I use this?

A: No. TVs support Full to make them easier to calibrate. Most TVs will not display a black level below 16 because video content should never have it. By letting you see Black 15 or 14, it can make it easier to calibrate the display and get the black level correct. However, you really should not use this as your main setting as most displays are not designed to display levels below 16, and often introduce color tints when doing white levels past 240 or so. Additionally, if you restrict yourself to levels 16-235 you wind up with a brighter image with a better contrast ratio, as you can turn up the contrast level higher. Contrast Ratio is the thing your eye notices most, and so it will produce a more pleasing image.

Also, since any non-video game content will only use 16-235, these picture settings will work for all inputs and sources, not just a single source.

Q: Should I set my video game system to Auto instead of choosing Limited or Full?

A: No. If you can choose Limited or Full, you are best to do this. The system will choose based on the EDID of your display, or your receiver, whatever it connects directly to. Usually this is fine but some devices report incorrectly, or the system interprets it incorrectly. A good example is the Roku 3, which doesn’t let you change this setting. A receiver I was tested reported an incorrect EDID to my Roku, forcing it into Full RGB which crushed all the shadows and made the image look bad. Had the Roku let me change this, I could have avoided the issue. Since you know which you should pick, you should always do it because you can avoid complications.
 

TronLight

Everybody is Mikkelsexual
Oct 2, 2011
3,317
0
775
4:4:4 and Full/Limited RGB or YCbCr are two different things though.
4:4:4 is the chroma subsampling, and it's independent from RGB and YCbCr.

If you have a monitor/tv that supports Full RGB and 4:4:4 chroma you should enable both for best color accuracy.

YCbCr and RGB do the same thing basically, they should look the same (or at least, they look the same to me).

So I should use RBG limited on my consoles with limited format on my TV but on my PC I Should use YCbCr or stay on RBG ?

I don't understand why they're making so much format lol, confusing as hell, I read that games are made in RBG when movies in YCbCr...

Use full on console and full on tv.
Same for PC, full RGB and full on TV.
 

Koren

Member
Mar 11, 2005
9,345
1
0
If your TV is compatible, I guess RGB and YCBCR will appear the same.
In theory, RGB is better than YCbCr, because all possible values have a meaning in RGB, thus more available colors for a given number of bits.

For a simple example, if Y is 0, it's black, and Cb/Cr values can only be "0" *. You waste all values (0, Cb, Cr) where Cb and/or Cr are not "0".

(*) actually usually encoded as 128 in 8bits YCbCr, e.g.


YCbCr has several advantages, such as easier transformation in black & white, easier compression (Cb and Cr are less important than Y, and thus can be downsampled), share circuitry with composite/S-video, etc. But they're of no use in our case.


But it can be tricky. Most of the time, internal rendering is done in RGB, so it's even more interesting to use RGB to avoid conversion. But sometimes, there's conversions that are done inside of the console. I'm not a GC specialist, but if I'm not mistaken, once the frame is rendered in the frame buffer, it's transfered to the display buffer (in main RAM) converted in lower-quality YUV (probably to reduce the footprint), and YCbCr is probably better.


RGB-Full also allows in theory more information in the signal (limited is a hack of the past to deal with transmission issues in analogic signals), but if the whole chain isn't well configured (or the display device not really able to reproduce the additional levels), the results can be awful...
 

GReeeeN

Member
May 22, 2014
575
0
0
Are you using an Nvidia graphics card over HDMI? If so, you should use this toggle program, it may help: http://blog.metaclassofnil.com/?p=83

yep i gave that a go, but it never really worked for me, but even now NVIDIA have incorporated the setting into its control panel

what I do now is run 2 HDMIs from my PC, one directly to my TV running at 61hz, forced back down to 60hz in order to get deep colour, and the other directly to my amp at 60hz to run DTS-HD and so forth.

so far im pretty happy with the results, although for some reason my blacks are crushed meaning most blacks or dark colours do not show much detail, but i prefer it over a washed look

im not too sure how to fix crushed blacks though..