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Yoshi vs JordanN Debate Apocalypse Episode 1: "Stop calling Republicans Racists"

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404Ender

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In Africa, no such pressure existed. The weather is the same all year around, food is always available. There was no pressure on IQ like what we just saw in Europe for thousands of years.
lol

Why do Europeans & Asians have higher IQs if both groups suffered famines for thousands of years?
Please tell us more about these thousand-year famines.
 
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JordanN

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14 pages man. 14 pages and no one has been able to refute my information or call me "racist".

Now we're talking about famines and nutrition. As if no IQ scientist has ever researched this before.

And when I pointed out that historically, Europeans actually suffered MORE famines than America, it's now "lol that doesn't count dude. But but think of the Mcdonalds instead!".
 
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404Ender

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Do you have a rebuttal?
Wait, you were serious? You think the entire continent has a homogenous weather system that is stable the entire year and has readily available food year-round, just because they don't experience cold weather?

Please tell me about the 200 year famine in America?
Oh wait, you get to pick and choose which disadvantages matter to you? Ok, hypocrite.
Famine isn't the only way that nutritional deficiency manifests itself across a population. I never claimed there was a 200-year famine. Also, you didn't answer the question.

14 pages man. 14 pages and no one has been able to refute my information
If this were really the case, why do you feel the need to continually repeat this every 2-3 pages? :pie_thinking:
 
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JordanN

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Wait, you were serious? You think the entire continent has a homogenous weather system that is stable the entire year and has readily available food year-round, just because they don't experience cold weather?
They have a wet and dry season. Temperature wise, it is mostly hot. But there is no winter like conditions like we see in Europe or Asia.



Also, keep in mind where historical locations of Sub Saharan Africans were located. They were not always spread out. They made two migrations south within the past thousand years.



Famine isn't the only way that nutritional deficiency manifests itself across a population.
Famines are more severe. And America never had famines.

If this were really the case, why do you feel the need to continually repeat this every 2-3 pages?
To keep a tally.
 
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DeafTourette

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Why do Europeans & Asians have higher IQs if both groups suffered famines for thousands of years?

You are overestimating the role of nutrition when I've explained many times in this thread, intelligence is 80% heredity/ 20% environment.
He's not talking about the scarcity of food. He's talking about the actual nutritional value WITHIN food. Vitamins, minerals, etc.

He even talked about specifically that, yet you continue on about famines when that has never been what he's talked about.
 

JordanN

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He's not talking about the scarcity of food. He's talking about the actual nutritional value WITHIN food. Vitamins, minerals, etc.

He even talked about specifically that, yet you continue on about famines when that has never been what he's talked about.
I never made an argument that White Americans ate the same food as other Europeans yet for all we know, White Americans could have been eating lead filled pancakes but their IQs are still more similar than to Europeans than Black Americans.

It is a fact ancestry dominates IQ results, not nutrition. You don't need to know what food white people eat to understand they all score on average closer to 100.

We even have further proof of this when you consider White Americans are made up of different immigrant groups from Europe (not all of them are original descendants from Plymouth rock, but they also came from Ellis Island), yet again, the IQ of all them still remains the same. So it's not food that is behind this.
 
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404Ender

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They have a wet and dry season. Temperature wise, it is mostly hot. But there is no winter like conditions like we see in Europe or Asia.
I know that you're really tunnel-visioned into winter right now, but did you consider that winter temperatures might not be the only weather pattern that has an impact on food production and scarcity? That there might be an entirely different set of IQ pressures? And even that there are other elements of life besides food that might be important to survival and thriving that might be impacted by desert conditions?


Famines are more severe. And America never had famines.
Modern famines (from the past few centuries) don't tend to last multiple generations (I'm sure you'll dig up a single data point and declare that idea "debunked" though). They usually last a couple of years. Maybe you'll find 1-2 that went on for close to a decade.

You again dodged the question. Tell us more about these thousand-year famines throughout history that you brought up.

I'm sure all of your supporters appreciate it.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Why do Europeans & Asians have higher IQs if both groups suffered famines for thousands of years?

You are overestimating the role of nutrition when I've explained many times in this thread, intelligence is 80% heredity/ 20% environment.
Asking me this question does not erase the factual information I've shown that demonstrates malnutrition negatively affects IQ.

You are the one conflating famine with malnutrition, not me. I am not going to explain why a group has higher IQ when it suffered from famine because that is not my premise. It is yours. But to your point, food security has been much higher among Asian and European cultures for at least 1000 years. So, you're simply making my argument stronger. Famine is not the issue. Sustained malnutrition is. The two are not necessarily connected.

I've already demonstrated that malnutrition affects the person suffering from it, their children, and lastly I've demonstrated that negative effects of malnutrition are passed on for several generations before they are corrected by sustained sufficient nutrition.

Asking me about famines is handwaving. You are being very un-scientific and you are ignoring facts, something you keep insisting on when others don't acknowledge your statistics. It tells me that you are more interested in feeling right instead of being right.

Now, please return to the question at hand and show how my data concerning malnutrition cannot explain the IQ statistics among blacks. Obviously, I am not claiming it is the only factor, but I also never claimed that famines somehow led to lower/higher IQ. Please stop bringing up a non-sequitur.
 

JordanN

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Asking me this question does not erase the factual information I've shown that demonstrates malnutrition negatively affects IQ.

You are the one conflating famine with malnutrition, not me. I am not going to explain why a group has higher IQ when it suffered from famine because that is not my premise. It is yours. But to your point, food security has been much higher among Asian and European cultures for at least 1000 years. So, you're simply making my argument stronger. Famine is not the issue. Sustained malnutrition is. The two are not necessarily connected.
This is getting ridiculous. What do you think a famine is?

YOU'RE SAYING THIS HAS NO EFFECT ON THE BODY?





Europeans and Asians suffered this multiple times. They still have higher IQ scores to this day.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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This is getting ridiculous. What do you think a famine is?

YOU'RE SAYING THIS HAS NO EFFECT ON THE BODY?

A famine does not necessarily lead to statistical malnutrition across generations.

You have yet to disprove how malnutrition doesn't lead to a drop in IQ, which correlates rather cleanly to the black community in the USA and in Africa. Surely it isn't the only environmental factor, but it's a pretty big one and it contradicts your assertions.

I'm not calling you a racist, but I am saying you're choosing to ignore facts to serve your narrative.

If you can't counter what I've brought up, then it is time to admit that you are not being scientific about this topic and instead you are being dogmatic.

And once again it was you who reduced malnutrition to nothing more than checking which countries had famines, which is obviously not the only source of malnutrition in society. This is disingenuous.

Stick to the facts, scientist boy. Otherwise, you're making yourself look rather stupid. Shrieking about science and facts and yet cowering when science and facts are impassively presented to you. Makes you look like you don't actually know what you're talking about, but surely you could prove my wrong by proving my information to either be incorrect or unrelated.

You've done neither, so I'll assume that you concede the point until you can prove otherwise.

Thanks for the conversation. I'm glad that I was able to educate you on a topic where you didn't properly research all the variables.
 

JordanN

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A famine does not necessarily lead to statistical malnutrition across generations.

You have yet to disprove how malnutrition doesn't lead to a drop in IQ, which correlates rather cleanly to the black community in the USA and in Africa. Surely it isn't the only environmental factor, but it's a pretty big one and it contradicts your assertions.
A FAMINE IS MALNUTRITION.

You're saying those two people are well nourished?
 

OSC

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Your favorite single twin eggs showed that when they are raised in the same kind of middle class environment their IQs are similar. However, in the few cases where they’ve ended up in families from different social classes, there IQs can vary significantly. Other studies have also shown that the IQs of children adopted into middle class homes rise significantly and that these increases can persist into adulthood.
Another study, commissioned by the editor of the journal Science, looked at genetics and IQ. The Minnesota researchers found that about 70 percent of IQ variation across the twin population was due to genetic differences among people, and 30 percent was due to environmental differences. The finding received both praise and criticism, but an updated study in 2009 containing new sets of twins found a similar correlation between genetics and IQ.
 

404Ender

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A FAMINE IS MALNUTRITION.

You're saying those two people are well nourished?
Are you even reading full posts? Which recent famine persisted across generations?

You still won't answer that. Because you can't.
 

Boss Mog

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I don't know about famines but it's been theorized that the reason whites and east asians have higher IQs on average is because they migrated north and had to figure out ways to survive the harsh winters, this included building better shelters, finding ways to store food for the winter , and learning all sorts of new skills needed to survive. This also included building of boats to get around an fish further out at sea using nets. The people that stayed in Africa never really developed nautical transportation.
 

OSC

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Brain size is related to intelligence according to recent findings. The gene that mostly affects iq, by 1.3 points, works by increasing brain size

A review of the world literature on brain size and IQ by Rushton [Rushton, J. P. (1995). Race, evolution, and behavior: a life history perspective. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction] found that African-descended people (Blacks) average cranial capacities of 1267 cm3, European-descended people (Whites) 1347 cm3, and East Asian-descended people (East Asians) 1364 cm3. These brain size differences, containing millions of brain cells and hundreds of millions of synapses, were hypothesized to underlie the race differences on IQ tests, in which Blacks average an IQ of 85, Whites 100, and East Asians 106. The validity of the race differences in brain size, however, continues to be disputed. In the present study, the race differences in brain size are correlated with 37 musculoskeletal variables shown in standard evolutionary textbooks to change systematically with increments in brain size. The 37 variables include cranial traits (such as jaw size and shape, tooth size and shape, muscle attachment sites, and orbital bone indentations), and postcranial traits (such as pelvic width, thighbone curvature, and knee joint surface area). Across the three populations, the “ecological correlations” [Jensen, A. R. (1998). The g factor. Westport, CT: Praeger] between brain size and the 37 morphological traits averaged a remarkable r = .94; ρ = .94. If the races did not differ in brain size, these correlations could not have been found. It must be concluded that the race differences in average brain size are securely established. As such, brain size-related variables provide the most likely biological mediators of the race differences in intelligence. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016028960200137X
There are multiple aspects of the body that appear to vary along with brain size and suggest an evolved difference in size.
I don't know about famines but it's been theorized that the reason whites and east asians have higher IQs on average is because they migrated north and had to figure out ways to survive the harsh winters, this included building better shelters, finding ways to store food for the winter , and learning all sorts of new skills needed to survive. This also included building of boats to get around an fish further out at sea using nets. The people that stayed in Africa never really developed nautical transportation.
Another hypothesis is that warm weather allowed for more diseases to exist requiring more energy being devoted to the immune system rather than the brain in more tropical climates
 
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404Ender

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What?

Man you guys are annoying or really daft.
I guess it would be annoying to find yourself in a position where you continue insisting you're right about everything and then not have an answer to the studies and data that @DunDunDunpachi brought up.

I don't know about famines but it's been theorized that the reason whites and east asians have higher IQs on average is because they migrated north and had to figure out ways to survive the harsh winters, this included building better shelters, finding ways to store food for the winter , and learning all sorts of new skills needed to survive. This also included building of boats to get around an fish further out at sea using nets. The people that stayed in Africa never really developed nautical transportation.
That theory sounds reasonable, but why wouldn't figuring out how to survive in and built shelter for extreme heat, how to handle growing crops, finding and storing water sources in desert environments (for the large chunks of Africa that are deserts, I know that other areas get plenty of rain, just like not all of Europe/Asia gets extreme cold), etc have the same sorts of effects?
 

JordanN

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On Neogaf, there are people who believe famines don't cause malnutrition to the body.

Apparently, that would make everyone healthy, even though famine leads to severe malnutrition and then death if left completely untreated.

14 pages people. 14 pages of what I'm being put through. :messenger_pensive:
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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A FAMINE IS MALNUTRITION.

You're saying those two people are well nourished?
I'm not saying anything of the sort. The fact that each of your replies starts with "so you're saying..." demonstrates to me that you have no facts and you are trying to deflect. Looks like I've won the argument.

You're welcome @Yoshi . I didn't even have to call him a racist to do it.

Back to the famine misdirection: you are the one making the case that although science has proven that malnutrition leads to lower IQ -- even across generations -- because whites and asians had famines in their history then malnutrition can't be related to IQ.

And then you weep and moan like a victim. Give it a rest.

Either back up your assertions or take the L. This is beyond pathetic.
 

JordanN

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Back to the famine misdirection: you are the one making the case that although science has proven that malnutrition leads to lower IQ -
There is it again. Famine doesn't cause malnutrition.



This guy is clearly well nourished. /s

Back to the famine misdirection: you are the one making the case that although science has proven that malnutrition leads to lower IQ -- even across generations -- because whites and asians had famines in their history then malnutrition can't be related to IQ.
Whites and Asians were malnourished for thousands of years. But their overall IQ scores still remain higher.
If you don't understand how a famine isn't related to malnutrition, you need to take a long hard look at the pictures I posted in this thread. THEY ARE NOT HEALTHY.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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There is it again. Famine doesn't cause malnutrition.



This guy is clearly well nourished.


Whites and Asians were malnourished for thousands of years. But their overall IQ scores still remain higher.
If you don't understand how a famine isn't related to malnutrition, you need to take a long hard look at the pictures I posted in this thread. THEY ARE NOT HEALTHY.
You are fighting a strawman because you can't refute my science. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

So much for sticking with facts.

Whites and Asians were malnourished for thousands of years? And here I thought their agriculture and food security might've played a role in their reliable increase in population size over the centuries.

Let me ask you a simple question (because it seems like your reading comprehension goes out the window when you're out of facts and charts):

How could our scientists have determined that malnutrition affected IQ when examining subjects who were not suffering from famine?

Explain that. Otherwise, you are artificially reducing my point to "lol history of famines" which is not only a misrepresentation of my argument, it's a dumb argument altogether.

Please address the scientific research I've brought up instead of continually asking "so you're saying that famine is not malnutrition", because I have already explained to you why that is not my point.

Stick to the science, Mr. Facts. Asking me the same stupid question doesn't erase the wide hole I've torn in your presupposition. If malnutrition affects IQ, and if the black community in the USA and in Africa have suffered from disproportionate malnutrition for 100% of the time we've studied IQ, then malnutrition is a variable that needs to be eliminated before you can say it doesn't explain your statistics.
 
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JordanN

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That theory sounds reasonable, but why wouldn't figuring out how to survive in and built shelter for extreme heat, how to handle growing crops, finding and storing water sources in desert environments (for the large chunks of Africa that are deserts, I know that other areas get plenty of rain, just like not all of Europe/Asia gets extreme cold), etc have the same sorts of effects?
And here's the guy who needs to understand what evolutionary pressure is.

I've been saying this the entire time. Europeans needed higher IQ to survive their environment. That is just how every continent is.

It doesn't mean Africa is wrong for this. If they survived fine for thousands of years in their own environment,then that is what they adapted to. But Europe is not Africa and vice versa.
 
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404Ender

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And here's the guy who needs to understand what evolutionary pressure is.

I've been saying this the entire time. Europeans needed higher IQ to survive their environment. That is just how every continent is.

It doesn't mean Africa is wrong for this. If they survived fine for thousands of years in their own environment,then that is what they adapted to. But Europe is not Africa and vice versa.
Where's the evidence that establishes that Europe has more environmental evolutionary pressures than Africa does?
 

JordanN

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How could our scientists have determined that malnutrition affected IQ when examining subjects not suffering from famine?
They don't need to. The answer is still the same.
Ancestry dominates IQ results, not environment.

If you think back to human history, everyone was starving at one point. Whether due to shitty governments like communism, or because of outright crop failure.

But none of that changes that ancestry will better predict where IQ scores land.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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They don't need to. The answer is still the same.
Ancestry dominates IQ results, not environment.
But that's incorrect. I've already posted quite a few studies showing that nutrition has a significant impact on IQ.

You have yet to refute these studies.

You make it worse when you whine and say "oh GAF doesn't believe in famine. Oh GAF hasn't proved my facts wrong".

Snap out of it, coward. If you're the fact-based person you claim you are, quit the theatrics. You're unwilling to accept facts that go against your narrative, which means you're dogmatic.

Surely I don't need to explain what a dogmatic belief in the lower IQ of other races implies about you...

But you've insisted that you're not a racist, so I expect you to either step up and address these facts or to reexamine your presupposition. A scientist would do exactly that.

If you think back to human history, everyone was starving at one point. Whether due to shitty governments like communism, or outright crop failure.

But none of that changes that ancestry will better predict where IQ scores land.
Sounds like you've accepted that premise and now you are working backwards to prove it.

Bad form, Mr. Scientist.

If you could please refute my facts about how IQ is affected by malnutrition or explain how it isn't relevant, that would be great.

Until then, I'll take my trophy, chump.
 
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JordanN

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Where's the evidence that establishes that Europe has more environmental evolutionary pressures than Africa does?


Besides Humans, we know of another competing Homo ancestor that only lived in Europe and parts of Asia. The Neanderthals.

The Neanderthals are also confirmed to have the largest brain volume of all the Homo Sapiens. There's also evidence that Humans intermixed with these guys, although only Europeans and Asians did.




Also, to set the record straight, I'm talking about "intelligence" evolutionary pressures. I don't want people to quote me and say "hurr hurr you saying Africa has no pressures at all?".
 
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404Ender

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Besides Humans, we know of another competing Homo ancestor that only lived in Europe and parts of Asia. The Neanderthals.

The Neanderthals are also confirmed to have the largest brain volume of all the Homo Sapiens. There's also evidence that Humans intermixed with these guys, although only Europeans and Asians did.

That’s a circular argument.

“The environment is responsible for large brain development because large brains developed there”
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Racism is the dogmatic belief that a race is inferior to another. I don't have anything against scientific evidence. I wouldn't call someone a racist if they pointed out a race was more susceptible to a certain disease or was taller than another race. That's just science.

But you are denying science. You are handwaving a variable that refutes your premise and this is unscientific.

If you insist on being dogmatic instead of scientific, @JordanN , then you're a racist. It's rather simple. I make no assumptions about your motives, merely your words.

The ironic twist is that in attempting to counter my point with quips about famines and harsh winters and so forth, you are only strengthening my case that the difference in IQ can be explained by environmental factors.

So good job. You proved me right on accident. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

That might not make you a racist, but it does make you an idiot.

Any time you want to counter what I've already posted, please feel free. I will quote here for convenience:

I would like to see how nutrition (esp. across generations) plays a role here. Poor nutrition in early childhood is linked to deficiencies in mental development, which in turn has an impact on that child's educational prospects. Magnify that problem across several generations and I wonder what happens. The crux would be determining if the nutritional factors leading to mental deficiencies are more prevalent across generations in the black community.

There are studies blaming things like the 'Southern diet' for the higher incidence of health issues among the USA's black citizens, but I think it runs deeper than that. Over the past 80 years, we've gotten really, really good at producing huge volumes of cheap ingredients like sugar, flour, and meat. Certainly good enough to fill a belly, but lacking in nutrition. What do you think our poor communities are eating, expensive food or cheap food?

Switching to a high-fat junkfood diet lowered cognitive abilities in 9 days. High-sugar diet is also directly linked to a lower IQ. The overload of processed fats, sugars, and chemicals in early childhood is linked to poor IQ.

We're eating ourselves stupid, so to speak. I've been on foodstamps before. I know what it means to stretch that $$ as far as you can. I see what the poor black people (and poor people in general) fill their grocery carts with and it is highly-processed, highly-sugared, high-fat garbo.

So, what affect would this have on a community over the course of many generations? It certainly wouldn't raise their IQ, and since the diet of the parents (especially the mother but surprisingly the father too) has a direct affect on prenatal development, the impact would be passed from generation to generation unless corrected. Our black citizens are more likely to be obese and unlike other communities there isn't nearly as much cultural shame toward obesity.

On the opposite end of poor nutrition, we know that many vitamins and food-based compounds have a direct affect on protecting and improving brain health. Omega-3; sulforaphane; adequate magnesium, zinc, B-complex vitamins, vitamin C, D, and E; anthocyanins; lutein and zeaxanthin; choline; catechins and l-theanine; and nootropic foods such as lion's mane mushrooms. Your typical packaged, food-stamp-affordable groceries are low or lacking in all of these.

One might argue "why aren't poor white people suffering from lower IQ?" (even though they are), and I would ask if the conditions for the comparison are the same, especially since we are widening the window to several generations?

Evidence points to the extreme malleability of the human body, including our brains. Growing up I remember hearing from some older folks that "you shouldn't drink alcohol 'cause it kills brain cells, and brain cells never grow back", but we now know that is incorrect. I do wonder how effective a focused nutritional regimen would have on these low-IQ demographics, and I wonder if statistics might be reversed within a few generations.

While we might compare races, it is the case that we are only comparing a snapshot of races across a handful of generations (in the grand scheme of things). If there are factors involved that could affect multiple generations, then we have to account for those before chalking it up to "genetics" and "race".
A high-calorie, high-protein, high-fat, high-sugar diet (like I described above in detail) is a great way to grow muscle tissue, whether it is for the purpose of large cattle or large humans.

There isn't much crossover between the nutrition required to build bones and lean muscle and the nutrition required to develop a high-functioning brain. Furthermore, gut health plays a massive role in cognition and the cheap foods I mentioned have been shown to promote gut bacteria that hinders brain function. Conversely, foods that support beneficial gut bacteria have been shown to improve mood and improve brain health.

Believe it or not, you can be a great athlete yet suffer from a low IQ due to malnutrition, especially if the malnutrition starts in childhood.

Also, huge missed opportunity to ask "if carbs were such a problem, why are Asians so smart?", but alas, others like @strange headache have already pointed out the actual trend for Asians over the past 100 years.

EDIT: as a quick edit, your question doesn't actually refute what I posted about nutrition.

Be a scientist, JordanN. Follow the facts. Show me how the nutrition variable cannot lead to the statistics you keep waving around.
 
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JordanN

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That’s a circular argument.

“The environment is responsible for large brain development because large brains developed there”
I would just as easily accept the answer that a random mutation occurred that coincided with an environment where intelligence is needed to thrive or directly benefits from it.
Whether that mutation was caused by the environment itself or it just happened through sheer chance? I'm free to look into those origins.
 

OSC

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If malnutrition affects IQ, and if the black community in the USA and in Africa have suffered from disproportionate malnutrition for 100% of the time we've studied IQ, then malnutrition is a variable that needs to be eliminated before you can say it doesn't explain your statistics.
The claim that the entire black population has been subjected to malnutrition, from rich to poor, for over a century, is a bold one. One would imagine that long term wealthy families did not suffer from multigeneration malnutrition in the USA, at least there's no reason for them to as compared to the rest of the us population.
whales and dolphins have larger brains than humans, thus underwater environments push evolutionary pressure towards larger brains

this is why Atlantis was so advanced
But most whales and dolphins only have half the brain awake at a time, with few exceptions.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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The claim that the entire black population has been subjected to malnutrition, from rich to poor, for over a century, is a bold one. One would imagine that long term wealthy families did not suffer from multigeneration malnutrition in the USA, at least there's no reason for them to as compared to the rest of the us population.
If there was a far narrower range of wealthy families from that particular demographic, then the statistics would skew them on the higher end of IQ.
 

JordanN

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If there was a far narrower range of wealthy families from that particular demographic, then the statistics would skew them on the higher end of IQ.
But they do.

You see wealthier people of all races outperform their poorest ones.




Trying to say all black people are malnourished makes as much as sense as saying all white people are too.
 
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JordanN

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The ironic twist is that in attempting to counter my point with quips about famines and harsh winters and so forth, you are only strengthening my case that the difference in IQ can be explained by environmental factors.
No, not at all. This was the first thing I explained since page 13.

If you want to fix the IQ gap, it's a waste of time to focus on food and not just select for higher IQ populations within a racial group and encourage them to reproduce more.

Consider that when Europeans lived in their environment, they had to put up with winter. Food would have become much more scarce unless you were able to plan ahead for the future and and store them.

The Europeans who couldn't plan for the Winter would have starved to death. Repeat this for THOUSANDS of years and the European environment would have selected for a more intelligent population.

In Africa, no such pressure existed. The weather is the same all year around, food is always available. There was no pressure on IQ like what we just saw in Europe for thousands of years.
IQ selection began before anyone starved. These are the genes responsible for the gap we see before Whites, Blacks and Asians. This didn't happen 100 years ago. It happened thousands.

If you want to raise the Black IQ average from 85 to 100, then you need to get more high IQ black people to reproduce and become the majority.

Morally speaking, why would anyone be against this? I do believe we should be attempting this instead.
 
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Again, all you guys arguing are arguing on the gene/environment split.

As I've seen in this thread, I think everyone has said people's IQ is one part hereditary and one part environment.

Jordan has stated he thinks based on articles it's an 80/20 skew to genes.

For anyone battling Jordan the split is off, then what split do you think it really is?
 
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switchback27

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But they do.

You see wealthier people of all races outperform their poorest ones.




Trying to say all black people are malnourished makes as much as sense as saying all white people are too.
Isn't this proof, then, that the environment that one grows up in (and please don't tell me you're going to argue that wealth is genetic) has a noticeable impact on intelligence?

(Caveat: I cannot track 14 pages (700+ posts) of arguments and counterarguments, so if I'm taking your words out of context, let me know)
 

JordanN

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Isn't this proof, then, that the environment that one grows up in (and please don't tell me you're going to argue that wealth is genetic) has a noticeable impact on intelligence?
No.

Everything is based around AVERAGES. The higher the IQ = the higher correlation with success. This is fact.

This is true for all races. Black people with higher IQ will do better vs Black people that are lower IQ. This is not environment.

But because IQ Averages DIFFER by race, the level of success is not going to be equal, regardless of socio-economic status.

The SAT chart does a great job showing of showing this. Look at the Asians with less than High School diploma. The fact that they didn't go to school at all but still score slightly higher than Black people with graduate degrees tells you education by itself is not responsible for intelligence.

Now, if you look at Asians who do hold graduate degrees, the score is even drastically higher, but that's because there are more geniuses. So what about wealth?

The solution is very simple, the most in demand jobs DO PAY MORE MONEY. But how do you get paid the most when everyone is competing? BY BEING THE BEST AT YOUR FIELD.




Once again, this is why the argument of "racism" falls apart.

How is it racist, if one group of people occupy the highest paying jobs in the world? That is what causes the gap. No one is being paid $100,000 a year to just sit around and do nothing. It's obviously taking into account the thousands of people who became doctors or engineers or lawyers that obviously pay more than a Retail manager.
 
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The SAT chart does a great job showing. Look at the Asians with less than High School diploma. The fact that they didn't go to school at all but still score slightly higher than Black people with graduate degree tells you education by itself is not responsible for intelligence.

Now, if you look at Asians who do hold graduate degrees, the score is even drastically higher, but that's because there are more geniuses.
Ouch. That is a point nobody brought up.

The response will probably be like, Black people with grad degrees are malnourished, while broke dumb Asians still eat great and are all fit like an athlete.

So food quality > schooling > genes
 
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benjipwns

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In Africa, no such pressure existed. The weather is the same all year around, food is always available. There was no pressure on IQ like what we just saw in Europe for thousands of years.
Yo, where you always find all these perfect fact packed charts and stuff from so quickly breh? Especially the book passages from obscure late 1950's era books written to justify segregation or studies about the IQs of Jamacian children in 1963?
 
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JordanN

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Wtf are you talking about? After the reunification, East Germany is still struggling with the aftermath of WW2 and is recovering much slower than its western counterpart:
When people talk about Germany, do they describe it as 3rd world nation or as a 1st world paradise? If you say the latter, how do you ignore that they absorbed millions of people living under a communist regime but economically, they not only tanked it, but continue to be the best at what they do?

Would you regard this as the strength of the German people, the strength of Western Germany as a democracy, or both? Keep this question in mind for what comes next.

In essence, East Germany has better educational results because they invest more money into their educational institutions, have smaller classrooms and they inherited some cultural values that put more emphasis on Mathematics and Natural Sciences. All of these reasons are environmental factors!
I'm going to kill two birds with one stone with what you just wrote down:

-First, was Communist Germany not more poorer than Democratic Germany for 50 years? In fact, why or how would they invest more money in education if they are suppose to be struggling to begin with? If you are implying that Communist Germany had better grades than Democratic Germany while being poorer, would this be proof that intelligence IS NOT 100% environment?
-Second, why do you associate a European country with a culture of studying? After all, I'm pretty you or others have mentioned in this thread that it was only Asians who took or had a culture of studying more serious whereas White Americans somehow got consumed by Hollywood and didn't care?
-Third, if it is only true that Communist Germany had superior education/intelligence to that of Democratic Germany, then once again, why was Democratic Germany able to absorb the other half, but it hasn't collapsed or fallen into dispair like Communist Germany sort of was?

There are still some major socio-economical differences between East and West Germany.
Well I'm reading this article published in 2019 and the economical gaps are damn near diminished

I'm only seeing 1 or 2% differences whenever it mentions East and West Germany, Keep in mind, this is progress made in just 20 years. Compared to the Black/White situation in America where "Equal opportunity" has existed longer, I would be more inclined to give Germany the benefit of the doubt than to postulate the 15- IQ gap in Black/White differences will be overcome anytime soon.

Bla bla bla, what's important is that Asians did not always outperform white people in America, clearly highlighting the fact that it's not their genes but socio-economical and environmental factors that are at play here.
Genes explain why they continue to outperform Whites & Blacks AT ALL LEVELS. It is not environment, why both rich & poor Asians still score higher than poor and rich whites.


Nooooooo, he was just the leader of a well known Nazi organisation. Was a known segregationist and against mixed marriages and made his students fill out survey asking them how large their genitals are and how far they could ejaculate.

Some choice quotes:
People are calling Donald Trump a Nazi right now. In 10 years when he's out of office, there will be a lot of articles or literature floating on the internet that assert that he was a "Nazi" president. Doesn't make it true in any way.
I look at your quotes and it's the same thing. Accusations of Nazism, but nothing from Rushton himself that actually personally confirms he is.

Once again, what you feel someone is =/= actually describes who they are. His research even makes mention of Asians scoring higher on IQ than Whites. That's not a "white supremacy" no matter how much you wince and cry about it.

American innovation levels are actually declining, one only needs to look at global patent applications:
If you're going to use "patents" as proof of Americans all sitting home and watching TV, I can use the fucking Space Program as the exact opposite. Tell me which country has repeatedly sent an object to Mars?



You really think our pleasure orientated, hedonistic and consumerist lifestyle has no impact on our mental development? YOU, made the claim that societal and environmental pressures (such as harsh winters) caused white people to develop a genetic advantage in relation to IQ. If that's the case, then certainly it goes both ways.
Well we know Germans are somehow still worshiping a culture of studying, even after one half was obliterated by communism. For the USA, which is still one of the only countries on earth with the most advanced space program, I do not believe we saw IQ drop far enough to somehow want abandon these ambitions of education.


How many more times are you going to repeat those sat scores from the frikkin' nineties?

First of all, these graphs show that SAT scores correlate heavily with family income and parental education. Both are environmental factors, which flies completely in the face of your silly race realist theory.
Again, thank you for posting these charts. They continue prove everything I said right about IQ gap differences.
Higher IQ = Higher levels of success.
Higher levels of success = more wealth/educational attainment (NOT the other way around)

Well duh, over the past decades the American population switched from a manual labor and production to a service society, hence why higher educational specialization is necessary. Digitalization effect further lead to a decline in low skilled jobs. This is the case for nearly every first world country. More Americans obtaining higher degrees, is not a genetic factor, but merely a reaction to job market demand.
You didn't get it. I didn't say genes are the reason more people go to school. The argument was about whether white people just got lofty and let Asians outcompete them in school.
You seemed to have already answered my next statement. More white people are responding to the job market and going to school for careers. But within those careers, we still see an actual gap in achievement which cannot be explained away by environment factors.

Not at all, but it is only reasonable to assume that if your immigration policy heavily favors high skilled workers, you get skewed results when it comes to IQ distribution.
My argument the entire this time is that Asians in America do have higher IQ than White Americans. Whether or not they came here as high skilled workers doesn't change that.
Once again, by your assumption, you now must now say Asians are higher IQ than white Americans?

A higher IQ is tied to success. Whites are no longer at the top of education achievement since 1980 and the gap remains. Environment does not explain this phenomenon away since I asked you, why wouldn't the answer then be to redistribute Asian wealth to those who are struggling?

You don't want to answer that money that both Whites and Asians made is a result of personal success, not oppression that's holding either group back from outperforming each other.

Calling me an SJW merely shows how desperate you are. I don't need to be a social justice militant in order to debunk your wacko race realist delusions.
If you get to call people you don't like Nazis, even if they never personally described themselves as such (i.e Rushton) then it's fair game for me to call you an SJW, because I perceive you are acting like one.

Your stupid question is besides the point and only serves as a means of further deflection. I've already told you that, contrary to your beliefs, I don't view race as a zero sum game. A Certain demgographic doing well, doesn't automatically imply that others do worse.
It's three demographics I called you out on.
Asians were given equal opportunity and came to outpace Whites in academic achievement in very little time. But this is not true for Black Americans who still lag behind both groups.
You however still claim oppression for blacks, but I asked you who gets to claim oppression for the Asian/White gap since Asians now have more wealth and you refuse to answer.

Why should they? Your repeated claims and sources remain just as factually incorrect as they did a couple of pages ago.
Also this:
I want to take that article seriously but then it goes and writes this:

Nonetheless, the idea that group differences in themselves provide indirect evidence for genetic differences seems to retain popular support around the world, particularly among the so-called “alt-right.”
Agenda much?

Edit: Also, why don't they publish data showing all the races? Show me the black, white and Asian scores too.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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Sometimes a Spade is just a Spade. Rushton is, has been, and always will be a nazi.

JordanN, just take the L. You clearly lost and your continued failed attempts, while entertaining to watch, is starting to get sad.
 

JordanN

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Sometimes a Spade is just a Spade. Rushton is, has been, and always will be a nazi.

JordanN, just take the L. You clearly lost and your continued failed attempts, while entertaining to watch, is starting to get sad.
Once again, why would a Nazi publish a paper that clearly says White IQ is lower than Asian IQ? Hitler was not a Asian supremacist.
Why even publish a paper at all since the people who would read it would just dismiss it?

Sorry, but it's like calling Trump a Nazi just because you don't like him, and then people digging up articles from 10 years later and citing it as proof.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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Once again, why would a Nazi publish a paper that clearly says White IQ is lower than Asian IQ? Hitler was not a Asian supremacist.
Why even publish a paper at all since the people who would read it would just dismiss it?

Sorry, but it's like calling Trump a Nazi just because you don't like him, and then people digging up articles from 10 years later and citing it as proof.
If you serve and support the Nazi regime, that makes you a Nazi. Something that has been proven to you time and again in this thread. You so desperately want him to not be a Nazi who published weak, biased studies because without those studies - you would literally have no leg to stand on.

Once again, take the L and move on.
 
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JordanN

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If you serve and support the Nazi regime, that makes you a Nazi. Something that has been proven to you time and again in this thread. You so desperately want him to not be a Nazi who published weak, biased studies because without those studies - you would literally have no leg to stand on.

Once again, take the L and move on.
Once again, people say the same about Trump.

They go as far as to say he's running concentration camps. There will be articles that people could quote 10 years from now to say he was a Nazi.

Feelings =/= Facts
 
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