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Yoshida says "open world FFXVI would have taken 15 years to make", ditched its traditional turn-based battle system in order to appeal to younglings

KXVXII9X

Member
Persona 5 Royal is amazing, has sold tons of copies, and is turn based. I don’t understand why Square has completely given up on it.
Square hasn't given up on turn based combat at all...

They are just trying to push their tech with more action-based combat. They have Bravely Default, Octopath Traveler, Triangle Strategy, Diofield Chronicle, Dragon Quest XI, Dragon Quest 3 HD2D remake, and Voice of Cards. Granted, these are smaller projects, but they definitely haven't given up on them.
 
I think the problem on what he is mentioning about Command Based Gameplay vs Turn Based Combat (and why some people, including me, care about it) was that usually on a Turn Based Combat there was strategy/tactics involved that made you care about "numbers", getting new magic, applying weakness, making your character stronger while also understanding the output. When this games get turned into action games "with RPG elements" usually this just means we are gating your new abilities so that you don't get them all at once, but then usually every number becomes meaningless, might as well just hide them and turn everything into a health bar.

If somehow some team was able to make an action game were all this things mattered again (as well as the fun of over-leveling) I would say I wouldnt care if its TBC or just Action Based.
 

mortal

Gold Member
Valhalla shows that higher quantity reduces overall quality.

FF could go back to an overworld (map with encounters and obstacles)+ detailed dungeons/towns model and make that work. Honestly, I have missed that aspect of FF since they dropped it back in the PS2 era.
It seems that Square Enix have relegated the classic design to mostly spin-offs and other IPs cut from the same cloth.
I do miss overworlds as well, but I personally enjoy the more experimental nature of the mainline entries.
We only had a single open-world mainline FF thus far with FFXV, so I'm still interested in seeing more iterations of that design in the future.
 

kunonabi

Member
I think the problem on what he is mentioning about Command Based Gameplay vs Turn Based Combat (and why some people, including me, care about it) was that usually on a Turn Based Combat there was strategy/tactics involved that made you care about "numbers", getting new magic, applying weakness, making your character stronger while also understanding the output. When this games get turned into action games "with RPG elements" usually this just means we are gating your new abilities so that you don't get them all at once, but then usually every number becomes meaningless, might as well just hide them and turn everything into a health bar.

If somehow some team was able to make an action game were all this things mattered again (as well as the fun of over-leveling) I would say I wouldnt care if its TBC or just Action Based.
The other problem for me with the switch to action games, apart from Square just being bad at them, is that it kills off having an actual party. I like having full control over all the cool characters RPGs usually have with their various different classes and abilities. In the real time stuff they're basically just drones and don't really matter that much.

Like if the games were actual co-op and I could play through the story with 3 friends it wouldn't be so bad but they don't even do that. Which is extra hilarious because you could in some of the old turn-based games. Of course, Square doesn't even let you do that in their MMO so maybe that's just too much to ask for to begin with.
 
Listing the main aims for the project, Yoshida said: "I want a story of a hero who saves the world, because this is Final Fantasy. I want a summon to go wild and destroy the map. I want to release this game as soon as possible. I cannot release this game in parts.

"When considering these four main points, I believe it is practically impossible to ask for everything. If we had a development period of about 15 years, we may have had the opportunity of challenging ourselves with an open world [smiles]. After all, it's almost impossible in terms of time and cost to create a global story within an open world.
I loooove how he takes not one dig, but two, at Nomura. So vicious. I mean to achieve the vision of Versus as Nomura wanted it probably would have needed another 5-7 years in the oven.

Also at least he's honest about why it's not turn based. "I like turn based, but kids these days like real time. We gotta make money."
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
BS.. There are many many tools and techiques for making huge worlds. Ubisoft literally paints forests, fields, and roads into their games then hand builds the set pieces throughout.
 

Fbh

Gold Member
Persona 5 Royal is amazing, has sold tons of copies, and is turn based. I don’t understand why Square has completely given up on it.

FXV sold in a day more than P5 + Royal have sold as of June of 2021 (last time we got official numbers I think).
Also I'd argue the main appeal of the franchise isn't really the combat but rather the mix of social/highschool simulator + slice of life moments + RPG. The core shin megami tensei franchise which focuses more heavily on turn based combat usually sells considerably worse
 
But you want to see them go the route they did with FFXIII?
I liked FF13 more than most. I'm not sure how it's layout is any different than X, which people like.

There's also basically every other FF game that doesn't follow the modern-day open-world Ubisoft formula, but instead just have an over-world map.
 
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Dynasty8

Member
I'm okay with it not being full open world and action instead of turn based, but the whole 15 years and catering to the "younger" audience thing is bullshit IMO.

Other companies can do it faster and just as good if not better. SE is just inexperienced when it comes to open world. We saw that with FFXV.
 

Thabass

Member
So... The only example you have is a procedurally generated indie title? Ok, then I guess you couldn't name what I asked for.

And no, BOTW's or HZD's map couldn't pass for what he's going for. He wants a world with multiple countries and multiple continents like Final Fantasy used to have. They could have said those small patches of land in those games were an entire planet, but that wouldn't make them the a rich world like what he wants to go fo.

I mean, they COULD have, but it would take a long, long time to make. I'm pretty sure Yoshida was exaggerating the amount of time it would take. I think they wanted to make this game simpler and release it faster than however long it took XV to make (I believe when they restarted development, it took 4 years).

Also, not every fucking RPG and/or game needs to be open world. This includes Final Fantasy. Hell, FFXIV isn't even an open world and it's an MMO. I believe it's going to be similar to that and Xenoblade. Big opened instanced areas or, at least Yoshida seemed to point that direction. If it's like Xenoblade Chronicles, then I'm sure people will be happy with that.
 
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The reason Ubisoft can do them in a short period and this would take 15 years is because he's already said Final Fantasy XVI's story will span the world, as opposed to a small region. So if you wanted to make it open-world, it would need to literally be an open WORLD, not just a 30km square or something
Exactly. I’m not sure how so many people in this thread are acting so dim. Yoshida makes it clear that he wants an ACTUAL globe-trotting adventure
 
You’re really not getting what I’m saying. Even if lore says otherwise, some open world games could represent the whole planet like BOTW if that’s what the writer(s) said it was. It’s not Earth so the argument “but it’s only one land mass!” is irrelevant, not to mention the theory that Earth itself used to have only one massive land mass just further strengthens my point.

Also, fuck, open planet is easy when we’ve already had open-Galaxy:

Xbox One GIF by Xbox
You cannot be serious with this. You cannot.
 
The funny thing is a lot of them do. And I'm still wondering where Square got this notion to begin with. It's not like a mainline Final Fantasy title has ever outright flopped just because it was turn based and other big rpg franchises are still doing quite well with turn based combat.

It's the same with their crazy open world comments. They've been bitching about it since the PS3 era but Nintendo manages to pump out 4 Xenoblade games with relative ease despite their own troubles with the HD transition.

I think it's less about open worlds being too difficult and young people not liking turn-based games and more that Square is just painfully incompetent when it comes to Final Fantasy.
Xenoblade games are made with nowhere near the visual fidelity of Final Fantasy.

1. It’s clear Yoshi-P just doesn’t want to do an open world (thank god)
2. He wants it to actually be a globe-trotting adventure, meaning lots of unique environments/assets. Open worlds almost always have like one or two biomes copied and pasted over and over and over again.
3. Yoshida wanted to do ARPG combat as opposed to turn-based. Simple as. And turn-based would definitely be easier to program, so I’m not sure where you think you’re going with this.


I think someone here said that FF threads are always illogical “airings of grievances” and they’re 100% correct.
 

OOGABOOGA

Banned
I mean as long as there are open big areas that can emulate the feeling of an open world and exploration, then I am okey with that as long as Final Fantasy gets released faster. it's one of my favourite franchises. My main concern is the gameplay is way too action based, which is a red flag considering the mess that is FFXV. Honestly it's not looking very promising, every trailer makes less and less hyped for the game. 🥲 something in between like FF7 Remake or FFXII ATB system would have been perfect.
Like they delivered with XII, XIII, XV, right?
XIII and XII were good but nothing amazing like VII or X. XV on the other hand was a total disaster.
 
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Wooxsvan

Member
turned-based combat is straight trash. always hated it and im over 40. lived through the best years of that system and never enjoyed it. Good call on the combat changes.
 
Sure, but it was the crux of its problems. It prioritized the open world over everything else, and everything else massively suffered as a result.
I would have been way, way more forgiving towards it's specific type of open world and the issues that came with it, if the story, scenario, and script writers had showed up to work for more than a month. FFXII, while also having story issues, at least felt complete enough to be satisfying. FFXV's story was stitched together with crayons, gum, elmer's glue, and graph paper and the team/publisher felt like what we were given was good enough to ship. The sadder thing is that people actually defended it and still do to this day.
 

ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
Complete fucking nonsense and I'm surprised this isn't getting shredded as such. You don't even have to point to controversial developers of open-world games like UBISOFT to point out this is complete nonsense. There are numerous examples and I'm not sure why he thinks FF is some special Unicorn that just couldn't work.

Like they delivered with XII, XIII, XV, right?

FF12 is fucking excellent (easily one of their best stories), FF13 was weird but not a complete shart-show, and FF15 clearly shows that FF can exist in a true open-world.
 

FStubbs

Member
It’s funny, I used to think I was all smart and sophisticated because I played “thinking man” strategic turn-based games like FF VI and Chrono Trigger, while my friends were playing games that actually required some skill and mastery (Castlevania IV, Contra 3, Super Metroid, Madden, etc).
Madden.

You do realize American football is turn based, right?
 

EDMIX

Member
Then how come Ubisoft churns out 2-3 open world games per year?

Was just about to say that. They do however have teams working on those games for years btw, but I regardless, I'm not even sure what exactly Square is saying here and what they mean by 15 years to make lol Make what? What in their minds leads them to believe it takes 15 years to make a open world game? lol So we'd need context in what they are talking about.

If they feel that is what it would take, I question more what the fuck is going on at Square for them to believe that is a timeline for such a thing.
This was FF6's "world" for instance, which just amounted to 3 islands. You could absolutely do a FF world to Genshin's scale and make it feel massive. Just because Genshin is a mega-continent doesn't mean you couldn't split it into 2-3 sub-continents.


Agreed. I don't know why folks ignore that is in the series. If you put those games in 3D, are you not already getting some open world traveling to places?
You’re really not getting what I’m saying. Even if lore says otherwise, some open world games could represent the whole planet like BOTW if that’s what the writer(s) said it was. It’s not Earth so the argument “but it’s only one land mass!” is irrelevant, not to mention the theory that Earth itself used to have only one massive land mass just further strengthens my point.

Also, fuck, open planet is easy when we’ve already had open-Galaxy:

Xbox One GIF by Xbox

thats a very good point.
Man, it’s almost like some of those open world games, or any games with fields and such, also aren’t meant to be exact scale or something…..

Like, does he think in Ocarina of Time that Kokiri Forest is actually meant to be literally 3 minutes away from Hyrule Castle?

It’s called scaling, seriously. Anyone could have a game‘s entire world, as long as it’s not Earth as we know its scale and layout, be open world and work. Nobody is asking for a realistic scale of a planet. That would mean walking between towns would take actual DAYS of play time. No open world game I’m aware of bothers with that level of realism for obvious reasons.

So really, good job. You just made the developer’s argument even more baffling.

Well Done Ok GIF by America's Got Talent's Got Talent

yes, all of this please. I hate when people hear open world and start automatically assuming wasted space as if that is a default that MUST BE or something. How they fill that world is up to them and even in the older FF titles when you went in an airship, you went around some globe and could go pole to pole or something. So its not suggesting we'd want some 1.1 of Earth, simply a structure that fits that design like what was already done in FF titles in the past
 

SlimeGooGoo

Party Gooper
This opinion is only increasing, particularly with younger audiences who do not typically play RPGs.
In other words, a change to appeal to a wider audience that never cared about Final Fantasy to begin with, just so you can sell more copies. No fucks given to the franchise's identity.

I've been saying this for so long, but have always been labeled as a "troll".
Guess that makes Yoshida a "troll" now, huh?
 
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FStubbs

Member
Was just about to say that. They do however have teams working on those games for years btw, but I regardless, I'm not even sure what exactly Square is saying here and what they mean by 15 years to make lol Make what? What in their minds leads them to believe it takes 15 years to make a open world game? lol So we'd need context in what they are talking about.

If they feel that is what it would take, I question more what the fuck is going on at Square for them to believe that is a timeline for such a thing.



Agreed. I don't know why folks ignore that is in the series. If you put those games in 3D, are you not already getting some open world traveling to places?


thats a very good point.


yes, all of this please. I hate when people hear open world and start automatically assuming wasted space as if that is a default that MUST BE or something. How they fill that world is up to them and even in the older FF titles when you went in an airship, you went around some globe and could go pole to pole or something. So its not suggesting we'd want some 1.1 of Earth, simply a structure that fits that design like what was already done in FF titles in the past
Inside Out 3D GIF by tdhooper
 

SlimeGooGoo

Party Gooper
I think it's less about open worlds being too difficult and young people not liking turn-based games and more that Square is just painfully incompetent when it comes to Final Fantasy.
Yep, that's all there is to it.

They lost all confidence in themselves after 13 bombed hard. Now they just follow trends to appeal to the masses, it's all about sales now regardless of quality.
And it's working, it's selling more than ever but the quality is as bad as 13's.
 

DonkeyPunchJr

World’s Biggest Weeb
In other words, a change to appeal to a wider audience that never cared about Final Fantasy to begin with, just so you can sell more copies. No fucks given to the franchise's identity.

I've been saying this for so long, but have always been labeled as a "troll".
Guess that makes Yoshida a "troll" now, huh?
Dude it’s been over 20 years since the last mainline turn-based FF game. Time to move on and begin the healing process.
 

SlimeGooGoo

Party Gooper
Dude it’s been over 20 years since the last mainline turn-based FF game. Time to move on and begin the healing process.
To be honest with you, I kinda gave up on Final Fantasy already.
There are probably people there that care but don't have the power to make decisions.

Regardless, I just like to remind younger generations that things used to be better when Square-Enix wasn't a thing yet.
 

TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
Sounds good to me. Every numbered Final Fantasy has it's own take on the series, anyway. I may be a bit of a simp, but hearing they're going with the large-zone based map a la FFXII is good news to me. FFXII felt (and was, honestly) way grander and large than a PS2 title had any business being, and at no point in time, even in the contemporary context of the Zodiac Age, did I feel shortchanged by a lack of space or a lack of things to do in that space. With a dev team the likes of FFXIV and DMC rubbing shoulders, and with current gen tech, I've no doubt that this will work well.

As for the turn based versus action argument, dude sounds like he has enough credits in Gaming Theory - History 101 to understand that free movement and real time battles don't equal character action and numbers showing up on a screen and elemental weaknesses don't equal an RPG. He seems to know his shit, and treat said shit with a sort of reverence that feels genuine.

Also, I can't be the only one seeing some mild digs/hints at FFVIIR, eh? Maybe it is open world. Interview even had the Nomura trademarked "vague answer followed by coy Japanese laughter," thing going on.
 

Crayon

Member
I don't care if it's open world or not. I do not consider classic ff games open world at all. They have discreet locations scatered on a map that you can traverse. Map sections of various sizes unlock with story beats. The map is not homogenous in every direction, but mostly guides you from one area to another.

As far as turn-based goes, I find it a little hard to believe that some bright person at the storied house of square-enix has not pitched an idea to make turn-based or atb combat fresh and interesting, again. Or that fans of final fantasy wouldn't be willing to give it a try. They are just scared.

I trhough FF7R had a nice battle system, though. It was unique and at least reminded me of the old games. And importantly, it was fun. What I'm not a fan of is break/stagger/stun, whatever the fuck that is. I understand why it's there (at least I think I do) but I don't like it.
 
I know right. I could probably churn out 10 open world games a year as a one man developer. /s
Ubisoft is truly insane. I sat through the credits off an AssCreed once and it goes on forever with studios from Canada, China and Singapore.
How they can even make money is beyond me.
 
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