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[onQ123]

Like if one of the consoles was released in 2020 with 16GB of GDDR6 but has a SD Express or CFexpress card slot & the price of ReRAM drop really low in 2021?


Games could come with some data preloaded in it's on pool of ReRAM to get pass the 16GB limitation of the console & they could sell a RAM card for use with downloaded games .


Like back in the day because SD Express /CFexpress slots are basically PCIe slots


The secret upgrade: How expansion chips in video game cartridges pushed performance

To push past the inherent limitations of early game consoles, developers quietly built chips into the game cartridges themselves.

 

[Mihos]

Vitrua Racing on Genesis was one of the first I remember, it was pretty cool, but the game was like $90 in 90s money.

 

[Joelenheimer]

Vitrua Racing on Genesis was one of the first I remember, it was pretty cool, but the game was like $90 in 90s money.

A lot of games we're around that price back then. pretty crazy.

 

[The Snake]

Vitrua Racing on Genesis was one of the first I remember, it was pretty cool, but the game was like $90 in 90s money.

$100, or roughly $171 adjusted for 2018 inflation.

That's insane. It is an extremely impressive game, though.

 

[Mojoraisin]

This has been tried before and never worked. It won't this time either. Also it fucks up console manufacturers new thing of making the audience buy multiple consoles, ie pro, x etc.

 

[Hendrick's]

So instead of moving to digital like is inevitable, they will go back to carts? Yeah, not going to happen.

 

[onQ123]

Vitrua Racing on Genesis was one of the first I remember, it was pretty cool, but the game was like $90 in 90s money.

That wasn't because of RAM that game had a Co-processor in the cartridge

 

[The Snake]

That wasn't because of RAM that game had a Co-processor in the cartridge

There was actually a mild debate recently about Paprium (lololol) and the fact that Fonzie was basically putting an advanced miniature console into the cartridge, effectively making the Genesis / MD an output device. And at that point, was Paprium even still a Genesis game?

The answer is no, because it's never, ever coming out.

 

[Breakage]

So like the way some N64 games came with an Expansion Pak.

 

[BigBooper]

The interface connection would not be fast enough to work as RAM.

 

[Insane Metal]

onQ123 should have thread creating hability revoked.

 

[onQ123]

Y'all do know that a lot of the Atari , NES , SNES & so on games came with extra RAM on the cartridge right?

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I like the general idea, but the console manufacturers would simply release a "Pro" version of that console at a later date instead of giving players the flexibility of upgrading their existing box.

Alternatively, I could see them reintroducing the N64's "Expansion Pak" to mod your system and turn it into a (hodgepodge) Pro version. That might be neat.

Cartridges -- as in, dedicated boards that shoulder a portion of system's performance -- are never coming back. Even the Switch carts are essentially just fast-reading memory chips.

 

[onQ123]

The interface connection would not be fast enough to work as RAM.

It would be fast enough for ReRAM

 

[ethomaz]

That too old and a lot of system already did that.

The beneficies are small because you can’t increase bus, processing, etc that ends not fully utilizing the additional amount of RAM.

 

[Allandor]

It would be fast enough for ReRAM

no, it is not.
You would really need a big interface and really fast transfer speeds. Everything else would today be possible via a fast USB-Stick, just like PC do if the PC has low memory. But that doesn't really change much.
E.g. xbox 360 games loaded fastest, if they were installed on an USB-Drive. Well, the xb360 had a USB 2.0 limitation, but still 20mb/s from static drive is way faster than up to 50mb/s from a HDD. With current consoles, just use an SSD.

Than there are the costs. Well DDR4 is getting cheaper, yes, but not near as cheap as the chips that were in n64 expansion pack or the SNES games with build-in chips.

Cooling is also a problem. Well GDDR6 can be cooled without a cooler by air, but not inside a closed case. It needs a bit air-flow.

 

[Sakura]

I don't think increasing RAM is really as big of a deal today as it would've been back in those days, so I don't see much merit to such an approach.

 

[iconmaster]

So like the way some N64 games came with an Expansion Pak.

Nintendo ahead of the pak as usual.

 

[ethomaz]

Another point is the increase in RAM is not that fast like it used to be... we won’t see big increases anymore so a console with 16GB+ RAM for game will be ready to everything even 8k for the next decade.

 

[onQ123]

I like the general idea, but the console manufacturers would simply release a "Pro" version of that console at a later date instead of giving players the flexibility of upgrading their existing box.

Alternatively, I could see them reintroducing the N64's "Expansion Pak" to mod your system and turn it into a (hodgepodge) Pro version. That might be neat.

Cartridges -- as in, dedicated boards that shoulder a portion of system's performance -- are never coming back. Even the Switch carts are essentially just fast-reading memory chips.

If the console use SD Express or CFexpress they would already have the connection needed

 

[JordanN]

Games could come with some data preloaded in it's on pool of ReRAM to get pass the 16GB limitation of the console & they could sell a RAM card for use with downloaded games .


Like back in the day because SD Express /CFexpress slots are basically PCIe slots

Why not just buy a PC at this point?

You know Sony/MS don't really care about performance and they're more concerned with increasing profits? They would slap their brand name on a RAM stick and charge you double what it's actually worth.

Y'all do know that a lot of the Atari , NES , SNES & so on games came with extra RAM on the cartridge right?

They were also 100x more simpler as well.

It's not like game development has really changed much since the PS2 days. Developers should be chasing after better gameplay.

 

[iconmaster]

onQ123 should have thread creating hability revoked.

I hate to pick on people but I still remember when he was convinced VR could be displayed on a 2D television thanks to head tracking.

 

[celsowmbr]

Nintendo ahead of the pak as usual.

After Sega and NEC, you mean

 

[onQ123]

I hate to pick on people but I still remember when he was convinced VR could be displayed on a 2D television thanks to head tracking.

It can Fish Tank VR

 

[ThatStupidLion]

just release new skus every year or 2

 

[BigBooper]

If the console use SD Express or CFexpress they would already have the connection needed

There's a whole lot of "future" and "may" in that graphic.

 

[onQ123]

no, it is not.
You would really need a big interface and really fast transfer speeds. Everything else would today be possible via a fast USB-Stick, just like PC do if the PC has low memory. But that doesn't really change much.
E.g. xbox 360 games loaded fastest, if they were installed on an USB-Drive. Well, the xb360 had a USB 2.0 limitation, but still 20mb/s from static drive is way faster than up to 50mb/s from a HDD. With current consoles, just use an SSD.

Than there are the costs. Well DDR4 is getting cheaper, yes, but not near as cheap as the chips that were in n64 expansion pack or the SNES games with build-in chips.

Cooling is also a problem. Well GDDR6 can be cooled without a cooler by air, but not inside a closed case. It needs a bit air-flow.

ReRAM isn't GDDR6

 

[Xyphie]

Timings on RAM are extremely tight these days. If you have a motherboard with 4 DIMM slots you get much lower performance just moving to the further away pair, and this is with traces just a few millimeter longer. Graphic cards are even worse than this (soldered RAM BGAs are there for a reason).

Doing something over PCIe is not meaningfully different than having a SSD in the system.

 

[Zaffo]

They wont, they will come optimized for streaming, so Microsoft will be able to upgrade their back end streaming farms and offer better graphics without the need to upgrade your physical hardware at home.

 

[Shifty]

We going back to the NES and SNES days of cart-side expansion chips, aw yiss

Now, who do I need to bribe in order to bring back Patented Lock-On Technology?

 

[zeorhymer]

Cartridge -> Disc -> Digital -> Cartridge

Did I get the evolution of the games medium correct?

 

[gspat]

Cartridge -> Disc -> Digital -> Cartridge

Did I get the evolution of the games medium correct?

Nintendo agrees with you!

 

[onQ123]

Cartridge -> Disc -> Digital -> Cartridge

Did I get the evolution of the games medium correct?

We moved to disc because they was cheap & had way more storage back in the day but disc have been at a stand still for over 10 years while cards keep advancing so going to a card wouldn't really be going backwards now because they are more advanced than Blu-rays.



Also

Disc

Digital

Cartridge

 

[Redneckerz]

onQ123 should have thread creating hability revoked.

Well, you know what to do.

I hate to pick on people but I still remember when he was convinced VR could be displayed on a 2D television thanks to head tracking.

He has not been correct on a lot of things really. Its just wild guesses and hoping something sticks.

And because of that, he sometimes has something right.

I wish it was as entertaining as Jeff_Rigby. Then again Jeff literally had nothing right, but oh, the efforts pulled there were fascinating.

 

[Spukc]

Not sure if OP knows this..

https://downloadmoreram.com/

You can download ram just from the internet.

 

[Boss Mog]

RAM isn't that much of an issue though. I've never heard any dev say that the 8GB on the PS4 wasn't enough for them.

 

[onQ123]

Nintendo ahead of the pak as usual.

 

[iconmaster]

celsowmbr O onQ123 Fun to see those. The history of custom chips in NES cartridges is also really fascinating.

 

[onQ123]

RAM isn't that much of an issue though. I've never heard any dev say that the 8GB on the PS4 wasn't enough for them.

Because 8GB was a lot for this generation but if next generation consoles release with 16GB of RAM that's going to become small in the next few years

 

[manfestival]

I would rather download the RAM

 

[Iorv3th]

Why wouldn't they just use virtual memory if they come with SSDs? (games already stream from the hard drive to move textures in and out of on board ram you say huh?)

 

[Chozofication_]

Aww yeah bring back the n64 red top baby.

 

[Chozofication_]

RAM isn't that much of an issue though. I've never heard any dev say that the 8GB on the PS4 wasn't enough for them.

Actually crytek said they wanted more lol. Before we knew we'd get 8gb crytek wanted 8 but then they said they could still use more given the os sucks up 3gb.

I think if ps4 had the full 8gb available we could have faster loading and/or higher res textures. But for sure ram wasn't the bottleneck this gen, of course thatd be the cpu.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Actually crytek said they wanted more lol. Before we knew we'd get 8gb crytek wanted 8 but then they said they could still use more given the os sucks up 3gb.

I think if ps4 had the full 8gb available we could have faster loading and/or higher res textures. But for sure ram wasn't the bottleneck this gen, of course thatd be the cpu.

You’re getting this mixed up with Xbox. That OS used 3GB. PS4 used (and still does )considerably less.

 

[Iorv3th]

You’re getting this mixed up with Xbox. That OS used 3GB. PS4 used (and still does )considerably less.

I think the PS4 pro has the OS loaded into separate ddr3 ram and the GGDDR6 is all free for games right?

 

[Chozofication_]

You’re getting this mixed up with Xbox. That OS used 3GB. PS4 used (and still does )considerably less.

No, both use 3gb. Ps4 pro uses 3.5 out of 9 (8gb plus 1gb ddr3) and x1x still just uses 3gb but i'm not 100% sure on that one. Edit : x1x indeed has 9gb for games.

 

[gspat]

Maybe a 4K texture cart?

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Well the thing is, to add a significant amount of RAM, GPU or CPU power the chips would need to be quite big and require a significant amount of power, generate a lot of heat, and bandwidth... plus, contrarily to back in the 80s and 90s they would have to cost a lot, and it would be even worse when you take the cost of media compared to disk or download (there were articles about this shortly after the Switch launched).

I.E.: the PS4 has 8 CPU cores, dedicated hardware for sound, graphics, background downloads, etc. to make a significant change you would need either CPU and/or GPU boosts that would probably end up costing around 50 to 100$ above whatever the regular cart price would need to be for let's say a 50 - 75 GB game!

I think that sums it up.

 

[Link1110]

That article on the op chose an interesting example for MMC5, seeing as how the US release of Castlevania 3 was actually a downgrade from its Japanese version which had the VRC6 chip, allowing for much better music.

And then if you wanna hear something insane, listen to the music for Lagrange Point on NES. They used the VRC7 chip in that, and at times the music sounds like it could be coming from a Genesis.

 

[BlackTron]

For a console, it's already silly not to stick with one standard, but if you're going to make the RAM upgradeable, at least make it a standalone upgrade, not attached to a game.

The idea of zillions of software units shipping with a RAM upgrade, is beyond ridiculous, come on this really is gameFAQs now lol.