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Yu Suzuki and DS scammed STEAM Shenmue 3 KS backers by giving them a different version of software.

Dontero

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Apr 19, 2018
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I paid $30 for a digital PC copy. I'm getting a digital PC copy. Also, the game has turned out to be much bigger in scale and quality than what I expected when I initially backed it (my expectations were low, hence only pledging $30).

No scam as far as I'm concerned.
Shh don't tell that to steamfanboys.
 

Kazza

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Shh don't tell that to steamfanboys.
For the record, I do think that they should offer steam keys or refunds to backers, as many would have assumed a steam copy, even if not explicitly stated at the time (when the Epic Games Store was just a glint in Phil Spencer's eye). But I don't see why the outrage metre needs to be dialled up to 10 when this looks like being a 2 or 3 max.

For me, I have over 100 steam games, but they are just icons in a folder on my desktop. I don't find steam itself particularly pleasant to use. For me (not necessarily for others, I understand) this will be just another icon on my desktop.

That said, according to today's kickstarter update it seems like they will cave in and give steam keys or refunds:

A message from Ys Net, Epic Games and Deep Silver

Posted by Ys NetCREATOR
159 Comments48 Likes
日本語はこちら
Hello Everyone,
We want to make sure that the Backers are aware that we are listening to their concerns. We kindly ask all our fans to have some patience, we are currently at E3 demoing the game and need to get back to our respective offices to assess the situation and together find a way forward to justify the trust you placed in us.

Thank you for your patience and support.
 
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kiiltz

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Don't preorder, don't back. Things change. If you're not ready to accept a change to your disadvantage never spend money on something you have no idea how it will turn out. There has always and will always be risk involved in giving people money for promises.
While I normally do, I don't agree with the sentiment in this case. There's always an exception to the rule. No one and I mean no one could have predicted this let alone consider it a risk and Epic are taking advantage of that.

Imagine placing a bet on Manchester City to win the Premier League but by some miraculous turn of events Real Madrid switched in the last 5 games with their points from La Ligue and won. Essentially what you're saying is "Well, it's not like City were guaranteed to win it."

You might think I'm being over dramatic but point to me the exact moment four years ago where Steam users should have considered the risks concerning the events transpiring now. It's not like YS just stopped development and took the money and ran which is what that sentiment SHOULD apply to. Someone specifically stepped in and knowingly took something away from people to their own advantage (inb4 "it's just a launcher lol xDDD").
 

Yoshi

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What do you think happens with streaming services (Netflix, Hulu. Amazon, etc.)? People choose the one they like and pirate the rest.
The same will happen with gaming platforms. Especially when every other company starts making their own "game streaming" service.
That's incomparable though, because you have no extra cost when buying through a different store front, whereas using a different movie streaming service does naturally come at an extra cost. I can understand people prefering one store front over the other, but I cannot understand the vitriol here.
 

Endless Fluff

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That's incomparable though, because you have no extra cost when buying through a different store front, whereas using a different movie streaming service does naturally come at an extra cost. I can understand people prefering one store front over the other, but I cannot understand the vitriol here.
It is comparable and it's already happening with Origin or Uplay games and especially games with shitty DRM like Denuvo. People tend to pirate what isn't coming to steam.
 

Yoshi

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No it is not, because requesting people to pay another monthly fee vs. downloading another free piece of software are completely different things.
and it's already happening with Origin or Uplay games and especially games with shitty DRM like Denuvo. People tend to pirate what isn't coming to steam.
You can choose to have shitty DRM on Steam or EGS, or choose not to have shitty DRM on either (unless you think all DRM is shitty, as I do, but in that case, you would have been stupid to back Shenmue 3 in the first place, because DRM free copies were off the table from the start).
 

JCK75

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Shh don't tell that to steamfanboys.
It's not about fanboyism, I've used steam for 16 years now, in that time not even the slightest hint of someone trying to access my account.. zero issues.
I've used GOG since it launched, while I don't use it as much as steam again I've had zero issues.
I don't particularly like Origin and Uplay very much but I use them because I have to, no real major problems aside from how pointless their existence is.

Among all of those platforms I've never had an account be compromised
Epic Games Store is a dumpster fire behind the scenes, The funny thing is they allowed my login info to leak somehow (it did not leak by anything on my end because I used it for a year then never really touched it again), Around the time fortnite became big my account was always under assault by hackers (and how stupid these MF'ers were because I spent no money, there was nothing you were going to get from it that you could not just get for free by making a new account). Once I got my account back in order I decided to try fortnite and then gave up because while they could not get into my account they kept locking me out of it with failed login attempts. Luckily I hated fortnite and I just gave up on Epic Launcher and had no desire to go back ever. Now I'm told I'm not supposed to be upset they are trying to force me to go back to that nightmare and actually put credit card information and games of value into the mix just to play games I should be able to play on any launcher? Again screw anyone who is going to bash people for being upset about a real problem just because you can't actually grasp the issue.
 
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LordRaptor

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No it is not, because requesting people to pay another monthly fee vs. downloading another free piece of software are completely different things.
No, because it is not about the launcher, it is about the software library.

It is inconvenient that I have a music library split across iTunes, Amazon, and Google, and those purchases were for a much lower cost than the cost of a game is.
When MS abandoned GFWL, it left a number of titles in an unworking state; not just purchases made directly from MS.

Steam has well over a decade of uninterrupted service to its customers. There is little fear that they will abandon it if its not working out, and the way it is setup is such that even if they did abandon it for some reason, any title that uses steam CEG is easily bypassed via a 'fake steam' wrapper. That is the reason that third parties add additonal DRM - because it can be bypassed relatively easily once it has released.
The reason more people do not do so, is because using 'fake steam' locks you out of using 'real steam', and the benefits that steam adds via its client are enough that it is not beneficial to do so - cloud saves, friends lists, chat functionality, etc.

So for EGS to be successful on its own merits - not by bribing people who have the power to determine where a product ends up ignoring customer wishes - it needs to compete.
It does not currently compete on featureset - ie the benefits seen by a customer as to using that service.
It does not compete on pricing - games are not cheaper to purchase, although Epic widely advertise how the producer makes more money per sale.

So apart from the lack of competition, there is the question of trust. Videogames cost substantially more to purchase than a digital film or digital album do, and - as in the example with Ms above - when all that you own of a product is the licence to continue using it, you need to trust that the provider is not going to get bored and give up on it and will allow you that licence to use it indefinitely.

As I stated above; Valve have earned that trust, and they did so at a time when digital purchasing was novel and people were a lot more suspicious of it.

Where's my trust for Epic?
They have lied to consumers about the benefits of using their product.
They have used bribery to force customers purchases, rather than making their product desirable on its own merits.
They have recent history of abandoning products that do not meet their secretive internal goals; Infinity Blade, Paragon, Unreal Tournament 4.

Not only have they not earnt the trust to assume any purchases made on the EGS will be honoured in perpetuity, they have made active moves to distrust their long term plans.
You don't throw millions of dollars at products for exclusivity, or putting them on sale without telling the producer you're doing that, or astroturfing campaigns, or weekly free games without an expectation that you are going to make all of that money back (and then some) somewhere else further down the line.
 

ethomaz

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Don't preorder, don't back. Things change. If you're not ready to accept a change to your disadvantage never spend money on something you have no idea how it will turn out. There has always and will always be risk involved in giving people money for promises.
I will just added a bit here...

If it was preorder then I will support that what is in the preorder text is what you need to get so you can really ask refund and sue them if you want.

But for backer.... no... you supported a project without know what it will delivery as final result or even if it will delivery.
You are backing a project and receiving a gift copy as reward.

So there is nothing wrong with what Shenmue devs did.

PREORDER <> BACKER
 
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Takeru

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So I've been reading around that the (KS) physical PC copies being canceled too? Or that's just people speaking out of anger?

I've seen a few messages that say "You lied about the DEMO!!!" (Which is true since it was at E3, so backers didn't play i first.), "Steam" and Physical copies!!!" ....I can't find anything about the last one?
 

Kadayi

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Was epic store availlable when they started the kickstarter?
No. Pretty much the standard was to offer Steam and/or GOG keys for people wanting the PC version of games. EGS (Epic Game Store) only really came onto the scene in December 2018 way after the games Kickstarter had wrapped.
 
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Endless Fluff

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So I've been reading around that the (KS) physical PC copies being canceled too? Or that's just people speaking out of anger?

I've seen a few messages that say "You lied about the DEMO!!!" (Which is true since it was at E3, so backers didn't play i first.), "Steam" and Physical copies!!!" ....I can't find anything about the last one?
I think people were expecting a real physical copy, maybe even DRM free, but now it's been confirmed that the retail box will only include an EGS key.
 

Chacranajxy

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I think people were expecting a real physical copy, maybe even DRM free, but now it's been confirmed that the retail box will only include an EGS key.
Wow, so they really are going that route?

Yeah, if they decide to offer refunds, I'm out. I dropped waaay too much on the Kickstarter to be happy with some booooo-shit EGS code. I was expecting at least the disc version to be DRM-free -- kind of crazy they're shitting distribution up this hard.
 

Zefah

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This is petty as hell, but I do hope the game does poorly. So brazenly screwing over people that backed them early when they had no means of making the game without Kickstarter funding is just dirty.
 
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This is petty as hell, but I do hope the game does poorly. So brazenly screwing over people that backed them early when they had no means of making the game without Kickstarter funding is just dirty.
How exactly did they screw people over?
 

Zefah

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How exactly did they screw people over?
By quite clearly changing course (a course that the majority of their PC backers expected) and taking an exclusivity money hat after the dev work for a project that wouldn't have happened without said backers was mostly done.

I refuse to support the Epic Store because Epic is engaging in shitty anti-consumer practices to try and gain marketshare in the PC space. I can only be glad I did not back Shenmue 3 because I was skeptical a good game could be made with an inevitably paltry budget.
 
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Soltype

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my biggest problem with the switch is that they are basically using backers as market share, if the game was exclusive to epic and they offered backers a choice, I wouldn't mind.At this point all backers have bought the game so YsNet has their money, the only thing happening here is forcing people into an ecosystem they might not want to be apart of.For all backers money isn't part of the equation.Now they'll have 70,000 more people give or take using their platform, and those are numbers they can tout.
 
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Pejo

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So I just read some other stuff today that pisses me off even more. On top of the physical PC versions not having a disc anymore, and the backers not being the first to play the Demo, they are also now including $100+ tier rewards in the pre-order "deluxe" version on PS4 and EGS for 75~ dollars. I mean what the fuck, who is handling these decisions?

For anyone saying "oh what's wrong with just launching from a different link?" totally miss the point. Epic Games Store is a cancer on the industry, and they've already been brazen and shitty to customers in all sorts of cases. Look at bs like this: https://www.thegamer.com/epic-boss-says-developers-win-game-store-wars-not-consumers/

Nobody should be forced to support this bullshit, especially if it wasn't part of the original deal when the surveys were sent out. It's not like people don't want to install EGS for the disk space, they're a shitty fucking company doing nothing to make PC Gaming better, and instead causing all sorts of problems and bullshit. Fuck Sweeney, fuck Epic, and fuck Fortnite for giving these shitlords money to do these things.
 
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sol_bad

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Was DRM ever mentioned in the original Kickstarter?
If Steam/GoG/UPlay/Origin was never mentioned than at least at minimum a DRM version was expected for download back in 2015 right?
 
Aug 21, 2018
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So I just read some other stuff today that pisses me off even more. On top of the physical PC versions not having a disc anymore, and the backers not being the first to play the Demo, they are also now including $100+ tier rewards in the pre-order "deluxe" version on PS4 and EGS for 75~ dollars. I mean what the fuck, who is handling these decisions?

For anyone saying "oh what's wrong with just launching from a different link?" totally miss the point. Epic Games Store is a cancer on the industry, and they've already been brazen and shitty to customers in all sorts of cases. Look at bs like this: https://www.thegamer.com/epic-boss-says-developers-win-game-store-wars-not-consumers/

Nobody should be forced to support this bullshit, especially if it wasn't part of the original deal when the surveys were sent out. It's not like people don't want to install EGS for the disk space, they're a shitty fucking company doing nothing to make PC Gaming better, and instead causing all sorts of problems and bullshit. Fuck Sweeney, fuck Epic, and fuck Fortnite for giving these shitlords money to do these things.
By your definition, no one should be forced to support Steam as well. Would there be an outrage if it is Microsoft store or gamestop download exclusive? They still fullfill the promise of a pc digital release.
 
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ethomaz

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So I've been reading around that the (KS) physical PC copies being canceled too? Or that's just people speaking out of anger?

I've seen a few messages that say "You lied about the DEMO!!!" (Which is true since it was at E3, so backers didn't play i first.), "Steam" and Physical copies!!!" ....I can't find anything about the last one?
PC physical copies will come with EGS keys.

It is the same as before except you will receive a EGS key instead Steam key in the physical copy.
 
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By quite clearly changing course (a course that the majority of their PC backers expected) and taking an exclusivity money hat after the dev work for a project that wouldn't have happened without said backers was mostly done.

I refuse to support the Epic Store because Epic is engaging in shitty anti-consumer practices to try and gain marketshare in the PC space. I can only be glad I did not back Shenmue 3 because I was skeptical a good game could be made with an inevitably paltry budget.
"What" course? The only thing that was promised was a pc digital release.
 
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Conan-san

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I paid $30 for a digital PC copy. I'm getting a digital PC copy. Also, the game has turned out to be much bigger in scale and quality than what I expected when I initially backed it (my expectations were low, hence only pledging $30).

No scam as far as I'm concerned.
Look, just cuz you like thumbtaks up your arse doesn't mean everyone else does.

The reputation of the EGS as a living garbage fire (Want to buy more than one thing in a sale? ACCOUNT BLOCK) that backs genuinely awful people (Let's face it; at this point Randy Pitchford is the face of the EGS and is at a minimum an arsewipe) precedes it and thus the view that people who backed Shenmue have of a move to such a service (from a neutral assumption that it'd be on Steam) being a misappropriation of funds is perfectly valid.

At the absolute minimum the move from Steam by default to EGS Exclusivity is shady.
If an analogous situation happened in another situation where investment capital was involved the investors would absolutely have the right to pull out and take back their investment.
 
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Pagusas

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I don’t understand the issue, just add the shortcut to steam if you want it in steam so bad. I’m all for the dev team going with Epic and saving some money to use to make the next installment.
 

Pejo

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By your definition, no one should be forced to support Steam as well. Would there be an outrage if it is Microsoft store or gamestop download exclusive? They still fullfill the promise of a pc digital release.
I mean you're being deliberately obtuse here. I explicitly said in my post that I don't want to support Epic because I don't support their way of doing business. I don't love Microsoft or gamestop stores but at least it's not Epic. Also, there is the option of doing direct downloads with no DRM, or GoG, or literally any other storefront that I'd be less upset about.

Also, what about the physical PC version that was going to be a disc that is now an empty box with a EGS code? Does that fulfill the promise of a physical PC release?
 

ethomaz

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I mean you're being deliberately obtuse here. I explicitly said in my post that I don't want to support Epic because I don't support their way of doing business. I don't love Microsoft or gamestop stores but at least it's not Epic. Also, there is the option of doing direct downloads with no DRM, or GoG, or literally any other storefront that I'd be less upset about.

Also, what about the physical PC version that was going to be a disc that is now an empty box with a EGS code? Does that fulfill the promise of a physical PC release?
The previous physical release was a disc with Steam Key.

It was never a real physical release.
 
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DigitalScars

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The previous physical release was a disc with Steam Key.

It was never a real physical release.
On 23 July 2018 update on KS (Not sure if non backers can see) they confirmed it would be physical and i quote:

"PC & PS4 Physical Version Disc Data
We would like to address the many inquiries concerning the physical version disc data. Development is moving forward to have all necessary data to play the game contained on the disc. Please rest assured that the disc will not be just a prompt for an internet download.
*An internet connection is a planned requirement for the purposes of game updates and reward activation"


and then in August someone asked again..



Not my question/account but it certainly was a real physical release if you backed at that tier.
 
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ethomaz

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On 23 July 2018 update on KS (Not sure if non backers can see) they confirmed it would be physical and i quote:

"PC & PS4 Physical Version Disc Data
We would like to address the many inquiries concerning the physical version disc data. Development is moving forward to have all necessary data to play the game contained on the disc. Please rest assured that the disc will not be just a prompt for an internet download.
*An internet connection is a planned requirement for the purposes of game updates and reward activation"


and then in August someone asked again..



Not my question/account but it certainly was a real physical release if you backed at that tier.
Well that is new for me because when I backed the text clearly said the physical version was a disc with Stream Key.

PS4 version was really physical.
 
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