Drama Zoe Quinn #meToo / Alec Holowka suicide -- Update: Article questions ZQ's account of events (link in OP)

ROMhack

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One of the most important posts I've read in this thread. Beautifully put.

This kind of reasoning is also why a central theme of many superhero stories is not to kill or initiate violence (at least, they try to avoid it at all costs). They prevent crime rather than acting as the end-all/be-all of justice and killing based on their whims. The characters that do the latter are the villains.

Interesting how some of these people who think others deserve to die/suffer for having a different viewpoint also call themselves fans of superhero stories.
Good analogy. Really like that :)
 

OutrageousFacts

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One of the important things here that I feel is being overlooked:

The people defending Quinn keep talking about 'victims', about how anybody attacking Quinn is supporting an environment where 'victims' don't feel save to speak out. Here's the thing: Zoe Quinn is Zoe Quinn, and victims are victims. The two do NOT inherently overlap!

Quinn may have been a victim of sorts in the past. But unlike most victims, she (for unbeknownst reasons) is massively popular, has over 100k followers and, as we can see, wields all the support of the wider media. Criticizing Quinn for what she did is not criticism against 'victims', it is criticism SPECIFICALLY against Zoe Quinn. It is criticism against what this individual chose to do in her situation with her power. That's what's being criticized, and goddamn is that criticism justified.

Nobody opposes some smalltown girl with 20 followers who claims she's been raped by some film studio boss and is afraid of going to the police. NO, people are opposing THE Zoe Quinn killing Alec Holowka, who she knew was in therapy, who had apologized to her. THE Zoe Quinn that decided nonetheless to shit all these accusations on Twitter, and habing the audacity to include 'this isn't about accusing him', as if she didn't know how the internet works.

That's what people criticize. And everybody should join that criticism. Because let's not get any more people killed, like Zoe Quinn killed Alec Holowka.
 

EightBit Man

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Dunno but people are generally power mad. I'm going to a lot of job interviews at present and it's striking how quickly people are to act like your absolute superiors given the chance. I yearn to be spoken to like an adult rather than a child.

It also makes no sense as presumably we'll have to work together, not pretend to be father and son for 8 hours a day. We both eat, shit and piss at the end of the day (comma very necessary!).
Yes, and I think that's yet another substitute, for lack of power i.e. autonomy. This will to power is like a disease that's affecting everybody. How many people will keep exchanging their humanity, compassion, and need for good therapy and care for internet fame and likes. Maybe hatred and anger aren't even the real problems in this world, but the lack of real love.
 

Trojita

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Scott Benson said:
Over the next year I think I can say I really became friends with Alec.
Two Paragraphs Later....

Scott Benson said:
We’d decided not to work with Alec again back in 2015. I warned friends who asked me back then not to work with him. I confided in a small group of people what was happening to me, to Bethany. My friend Dan in town had been very worried about me and angry at “that Canadian guy you’re working with”. The woman who cuts my hair was in roller derby and she also offered to kick his ass. A lot of local friends were ready to throw down. Good friends offer to throw down.
With friends like this, who needs enemies?
 

ROMhack

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Yes, and I think that's yet another substitute, for lack of power i.e. autonomy. This will to power is like a disease that's affecting everybody. How many people will keep exchanging their humanity, compassion, and need for good therapy and care for internet fame and likes. Maybe hatred and anger aren't even the real problems in this world, but the lack of real love.
Agree. Using the term 'will to power' has its philosophical connections and I assume that wasn't a coincidence on your part.

It's been a few years since I delved into that area myself but it does come back to me in moments like this.
 
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Barnabot

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Also Neymar. Crazy bitch tried to goad him into attacking her so she could film it. She also accused him of rape. Scary times for men.

The rape charges have been dropped.

SAO PAULO (Reuters) - Brazilian prosecutors are dropping a rape case against soccer star Neymar, they said on Thursday, likely bringing an end to the most serious of charges against the Paris St Germain striker.

The former Brazil captain was accused of raping a model in a Paris hotel room but he alleged the encounter was consensual and prosecutors could not find evidence to contradict that.

“There was an amorous relationship,” one of the prosecutors, Estefania Paulin, told reporters in Sao Paulo. “What was not proven is that there was violence in the sexual act.”


But his carrer is done now. Still rich but done now.
 
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One of the important things here that I feel is being overlooked:

The people defending Quinn keep talking about 'victims', about how anybody attacking Quinn is supporting an environment where 'victims' don't feel save to speak out. Here's the thing: Zoe Quinn is Zoe Quinn, and victims are victims. The two do NOT inherently overlap!
I don't believe the bolded part is accurate.

The value and appeal of victimhood is enormous.
A victim is automatically assumed innocent, garners sympathy, not held to account. A victim has things done to them, so it is never they who must change, but outside forces that have wronged them. We are told 'believe' victims.
It's a potent, attractive label.

Are victims victims?
No. I don't think so. I think this is another bastardisation of language and culture to move goalposts and remove accountability in order to excuse (and never question) suspect behaviour.

Some victims are victims.
Some are hoaxers.

To automatically adopt the label of victim and to start wielding and profiting from it - that strikes me as something not to take at face value.
It demands questions be answered. Evidence to be presented.

Look at this episode.
Who are the victims in your eyes?
Who is claiming victimhood?
Who is being rewarded and protected by that label?
Who is being denied that label?
Who is doing this?
What transparency do they offer?

I want to believe victims.
I want genuine victims to have as few hurdles to receiving justice.
And every person that exploits the mantle of victimhood for personal gain and prowess makes genuine victims suffer that much more.

Some victims are victims.
Some people are Zoe Quinn.
Some people are Jussie Smollett.
Some people are Alec Holowka.
 
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The rape charges have been dropped.





But his carrer is done now. Still rich but done now.
Barcelona have been trying to re-sign him all window, while Real Madrid have been strongly linked. His career is FAR from done.

Sadly, as I hate the cheating bastard.
 

Sleepwalker

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Lol neither Neymar nor Ronaldo's careers were really affected by the allegations. Ronaldo's team even put on a statement defending him in the middle of the shitstorm.
 
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"When you're a playmaker, the rules don't apply to you."
- Playmakers

At that level, the only thing that matters in football (soccer) is winning, as anyone who follows the sport knows. People like Neymar, Ronaldo, Messi (the tax evader), etc. can do whatever they want and people will still break down their doors to sign them to giant contracts.

This isn't unusual in professional sports, last I checked Ray Lewis (formerly of the Baltimore Ravens) got away with murder and he still won 2 Super Bowls and will be enshrined in the NFL Hall of Fame.
 
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Meatstick

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Two Paragraphs Later....



With friends like this, who needs enemies?

So he was poisoning the well wherever he went, even to completely disconnected people like his hairdresser. No wonder Alec felt like he had nowhere to turn, when his supposed friends were running a whisper campaign behind his back for years. Benson may not have been planning on driving him to suicide, but as a supposed friend he shows shockingly little remorse. Alec isn't even in the ground yet, and this narcissist has a wall of text ready to make this all about himself and his own MeToo moment. Unreal, people like this are so rotten on the inside.
 
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ROMhack

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Lol neither Neymar nor Ronaldo's careers were really affected by the allegations. Ronaldo's team even put on a statement defending him in the middle of the shitstorm.
In fairness, neither have significant mental health problems (unless hubris counts).

Also best lawyers in town and a PR team the size of some small nation states.

But most importantly, they don't work in the videogames industry.
 
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Raven117

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Why did we as human beings allow the internet to wield so much power over us?
We didn't. We allowed the human id to remain unchecked and grab a bull horn (ie, internet) through use of the internet.

We are now living in a reality where the following line has become manifest, "Beware stupid people in big groups." The internet takes individuals out of their communities where they can be held accountable (and by that, all I simply mean is that if you want to be a certain way, you have to do it to someone's face....thats a lot different from hurling barbs behind a keyboard), and link them into a cesspool of groupthink. Moreover, the internet gives a platform to everybody, but thats really not a good idea. Here, there is so much bull shit out there, we can't even agree on a shared reality.

Long story short, it doesn't take much to simply unplug, and smile at someone outside. You will see that things really aren't as bad as the internet makes them. Almost about anything.
 

ExpandKong

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Some of you guys are taking it too far yet again.
What, with the digs at her appearance? I dunno. It’s maybe a bit distasteful but I find it hard to say it’s going too far unless she kills herself like Alec did.

I mean shit, he killed himself and his coworkers are writing blogs about what a terror he was, so even that’s not too far apparently.

I don’t really see the harm in pointing out that she looks like a paint-by-numbers coloring book picture of a liberal arts college dropout that someone left out in the rain.

People always talk about taking the high road in situations like this, but in all the years since GG came and went, when has taking the high road benefited anybody? These people don’t think in those terms. We’re talking about high roads and low roads and they’re over there just bulldozing everything.
 

strange headache

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Someone may have said this already but this whole situation to me proves the hypocrisy of Tribalism. Fundamentally what's different between what ERon did to zoe and What zoe did to this Alec guy.
When Eron came out with his accusations, he was quickly labeled a vengeful ex and Zoe went so far as to legally gag him in order to prevent him from ever speaking about it publicly again. Nobody was willing to take Eron seriously or to even regard him as a potential victim. Fast forward a couple of years and Zoe does exactly the same to the point of pushing somebody into suicide, but nobody bats an eye.

When Eron broke his story, all discussion about it was quickly made taboo. On RockPaperShotgun we were told that the private lives of others are none of our business, yet when Zoe sics another internet hate-mob on one of her ex-lovers we get 3 whole articles about it on their front-page:




Of course, there's no mention of Zoe's abusive past and how her one-sided twitter accusations have driven Alec into suicide. Instead, Alec Holowka merely "died", as if it were pure coincidence that he happened to take his own life shortly after Zoe's twitter lynching. It's quite frankly disgusting how the media blindly ran with her tweets and didn't even bother to ask Alec about his side of accounts.

The icing on the cake is the link to a suicide hotline at the bottom of their article which is merely paying lip-service to what happened to Alec. If they truly cared about preventing suicide, they would not have run with the story like that.

Conversely, those who choose to build community and to extend graciousness toward internet strangers are the ones who are impervious to the drama.
Well said and I truly hope that GAF continues to uphold that ideal.
 
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hariseldon

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I will give you one thing, strange headache.

I knew some of the red flags around her but I try to not invest too much of my time in the drama of other peoples lives and in the madness of online feuds.
Still, after a person has died, I had to do further research. Even reducing myself to the facts and discarding the wild stories... Its like she has a collection of red flags.

Some of the undisputed things about her... If I did the same, my family, my close friends, my loved ones, my work colleagues... They would crucify me as a liar, a bum, a manipulator, an abusive con artist.

It baffles me how so many people so easily side with her. Instead of demanding investigation and accountability. Even after one death.
Female privilege. Simple.
 

EightBit Man

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We didn't. We allowed the human id to remain unchecked and grab a bull horn (ie, internet) through use of the internet.

We are now living in a reality where the following line has become manifest, "Beware stupid people in big groups." The internet takes individuals out of their communities where they can be held accountable (and by that, all I simply mean is that if you want to be a certain way, you have to do it to someone's face....thats a lot different from hurling barbs behind a keyboard), and link them into a cesspool of groupthink. Moreover, the internet gives a platform to everybody, but thats really not a good idea. Here, there is so much bull shit out there, we can't even agree on a shared reality.

Long story short, it doesn't take much to simply unplug, and smile at someone outside. You will see that things really aren't as bad as the internet makes them. Almost about anything.
You mean the unconscious, right? I don't necessarily agree with Freud's idea of it (id), mainly because I think he was terrified of it (which says more about him than anything else). I'd say there's nothing wrong with the unconscious, or even our darkside. The problems arise when we don't integrate that part of ourselves and start projecting all the dirt accumulated by our lack of shadow work. And you can see this especially in types like Zoe Quinn. That woman shouldn't even come near the internet, that's how toxic she is. Unfortunately we live in a post-psychological world, where no attention is given to the great psychologists (not to be confused with psychotherapists) of the past.

However, I do think that the internet wields power. We are taking everything seriously, and that has serious consequences. A person committed suicide because of it. People complain about this and that, and that influences things (i.e. see the Sonic the Hedgehog movie). And it has made a entire generation of smartphone users addicted to social media, and there's no chance in hell that these people could ever live (or rather function) without the continuous stimulation they need to receive.

But I think you're right when it comes to leaving it all behind, at least to people who are capable of doing so.
 
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EuropeOG

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Her mental health is directly corrolated to how much free money people give her on patreon. Let's keep giving this victim money, that will show Alec.
 
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HoldSteady

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Hello NeoGaf! I just self nuked my account on ResetEra, I could no longer take the mob mentality and group think social justice types that would not bend on an honest to God rational opinion that was different than theirs. The suicide of Alec pushed me over the edge. I was more of a lurker here than anything, but I figured now would be the time to make my presence known.



Same thing happened to me. There is no discourse allowed on resetera. I was as diplomatic and respectful as possible in expressing my view and still got banned. Fuck them. The group think over there is out of control. I’m here to stay.
 

Vol5

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Same thing happened to me. There is no discourse allowed on resetera. I was as diplomatic and respectful as possible in expressing my view and still got banned. Fuck them. The group think over there is out of control. I’m here to stay.
Ha!. Same. I just got banned for endorsing a reasonable argument over whether it was appropriate to Twittaxe an individual with a mental health issue.

Incredible times we live in.
 

dark_inferno

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Her mental health is directly corrolated to how much free money people give her on patreon. Let's keep giving this victim money, that will show Alec.
All that sweet dosh makes her sane again I guess.

Overall it seems to be another shady thing going on here. 2 factor Authentification doesn't just turn itself off. We'll see what her next move is. If she is going to make a statement or if she is just acting as if nothing happened. Probably just going to be like "I'm suicidal now because of everything and I'm so sad that my past lover that I loved so much is dead now" or something like that.
 

EightBit Man

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Yay banned! Apparently I had to be an alt account....

Honestly, I left GAF when, you know, people left GAF. More so because of numbers, but jesus.
Congratulations on your ban! :messenger_tears_of_joy: (y)

So apparently it's fine to buy NITW because at least Alec won't get any money.
Doesn't change the fact that the game was his to begin with. Very strange arguments coming from these people.
 
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I've noticed the arguments are pre-canned. If you call out their bullshit, they'll bounce on it with "How dare you side with abuse, and how dare you blame them"

Never said anything about not believing, blaming Just commenting on their shitty behaviour in the thread. Honestly, I'm not one to wade into arguments, ResetEra was cool if you wanted to press F5 and see some gaming news, but the groupthink is just... ugggh.

*see threadmark, *see post #234 BANNED BANNED BANNED
 
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Zangiefy360

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Some of you guys are taking it too far yet again.
Why are you treating her with kid gloves? She is a horrible person and a scam artist that's literally cashing in on her toxic persona. If I, or anyone else, wants to criticize her for any reason it's fair game and it's her getting off lightly compared to what she's done to countless others.


With that said, she'd be better off wearing that mask.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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I've noticed the arguments are pre-canned
Yeah, that's where the NPC meme comes from. It doesn't feel like you're being chastised by a real human being. It's almost as if your post is an excuse for them to press a certain pre-canned response in their script and yell it at you. Half the time you're left scratching your head wondering if you hadn't explained your stance properly. I'd argue this is easiest to do over the internet (especially in written form) because it's very hard to read context and intent behind words. A troll is messing with you to get a laugh or to inflict pain, but this is gaslighting, where the goal is specifically to manipulate you and/or deceive you.

That kind of squawking is classic narcissistic personality disorder predation. They're projecting cognitive dissonance into other people's brains and trying to play off their guilt so they go along with it instead of questioning the illogical weirdness of it all. Also known as "gaslighting".
 
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Vol5

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I've noticed the arguments are pre-canned. If you call out their bullshit, they'll bounce on it with "How dare you side with abuse, and how dare you blame them"

Never said anything about not believing, blaming Just commenting on their shitty behaviour in the thread. Honestly, I'm not one to wade into arguments, ResetEra was cool if you wanted to press F5 and see some gaming news, but the groupthink is just... ugggh.

*see threadmark, *see post #234 BANNED BANNED BANNED
You don't have to justify yourself here. Welcome back.

My concern is when the site implodes, GAF receives a shit tonne of these idiots.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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You don't have to justify yourself here. Welcome back.

My concern is when the site implodes, GAF receives a shit tonne of these idiots.
Just call it out when you see it and don't tolerate anti-social behavior. Invest your time into making GAF an interesting place for conversation. Or back in my day we'd say "don't feed the trolls". GAF has dealt with ideological screeching nonstop since the split (as best as I can tell).
 

Meatstick

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You don't have to justify yourself here. Welcome back.

My concern is when the site implodes, GAF receives a shit tonne of these idiots.
There are a lot of great posters at ERA, the problem is that the conversation is regulated by a cabal of maybe 100 prime lunatics that make the most noise. The ones that hang out on discord 24/7, combing the forum for any wrongthink to bring back and share with their goober mod buddies. Get rid of them and the rest would be fine.
 
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Chacranajxy

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Just call it out when you see it and don't tolerate anti-social behavior. Invest your time into making GAF an interesting place for conversation. Or back in my day we'd say "don't feed the trolls". GAF has dealt with ideological screeching nonstop since the split (as best as I can tell).
Pretty much. Just as we're pretty good about telling people to cool it when they go off the deep end in threads like this, I suspect we'd be pretty good about keeping things level-headed whenever that exodus does happen. One would hope. The crazies wouldn't last long, anyway.
 

buizel

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Why are you treating her with kid gloves? She is a horrible person and a scam artist that's literally cashing in on her toxic persona. If I, or anyone else, wants to criticize her for any reason it's fair game and it's her getting off lightly compared to what she's done to countless others.


With that said, she'd be better off wearing that mask.
Yeah I live in Dundee, its like biggest homeless/drug population in Scotland (maybe UK), and she honestly looks like most junkies that trawl around here looking for heroin.

If she wasn't a cunt I wouldnt make fun of her so harshly, she brought it on herself ;]