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Drama Zoe Quinn #meToo / Alec Holowka suicide -- Update: Article questions ZQ's account of events (link in OP)

Apr 30, 2018
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The activity in this thread is dying down and so too is media coverage of all this. I can't believe she's actually getting away with all this without even attempting to address the inconsistencies in her statements.

Very sad.
I hear you but it comes to a point its really hard to keep commenting.

To me it comes down to a legal investigation needing to happen here.

Legal authorities need to get on the matter.

Maybe there isnt even a legal case here but clarification is needed.

An example has to be made.

Things are getting out of control.

Serious accusations were made by a person with a bad track record.
A person commited suicide after these allegations and the workings of 'internet mob justice' that cost him his job affiliations for a start.

On the face of this case possibly being replicated in the future alone, the police and the courts should step up to properly understand what happened and at least pronounce themselves on the matter.
 
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petran79

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My guess is she was in cahoots with her social and gaming media friends to launch another campaign, though certainly smaller than gg, but the suicide forced all of them to.... cancel it and change their intended narrative, opting for damage control instead. Pretty effectively I must say. Had Alec lived, he would have been forced to tell in every detail his relations with most of the women he worked with, like the Cultist Simulator devs and branded for good. In his state, just like Scott Benson, I doubt he'd be able to handle it, being abandoned and unprotected by everyone.
But the cat is out of the bag now, I doubt they'll risk doing anything similar in the future to that extent. Though with the current state of social media lies and brain washing, this could happen again and again.
 

ROMhack

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Bit of an aside but I wonder, do events like this turn people off working in the industry?

I get such an us vs. them impression of things at the moment (on all sides). Work is hard enough usually and it seems like all this extra political turmoil is really not worth it. I'm not saying you should excuse people who hurt others but there is surely a point where would-be developers (or even writers) just say nah fuck it and seek to apply their skills elsewhere.

I worked for a university and it was fairly political at times as you'd expect. Gaming seems off the chart lately.
 
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Xaero Testosterone

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This is off-topic... and I'm almost scared to ask... is this show still going on?
Yep, currently on season 33. In the latest episode, which aired yesterday,
Brooke lashed out at Thomas, and their ensuing war of words escalated into a full blown battle. Shauna sympathized with Ridge when he admits his struggles in his marriage to Brooke.

It's pretty gripping stuff.
 
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Fahdis

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Yep, currently on season 33. In the latest episode, which aired yesterday,
Brooke lashed out at Thomas, and their ensuing war of words escalated into a full blown battle. Shauna sympathized with Ridge when he admits his struggles in his marriage to Brooke.

It's pretty gripping stuff.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA... I missed almost all 33 seasons. Damn fuck.

She belongs in a mental institution or on house arrest without Internet access
Don't go easy on her. She needs to be in a Panamanian Jail. Well, no internet access for the rest of her life would be good too... IN A PANAMANIAN JAIL.
 

Xaero Testosterone

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yer goddamn right it is
Who's your favorite character?

Mine is Rick Forrester because we share the same first name and I find his extreme jealous obsession of Ridge Forrester and his relationship with Eric, and Ridge's position at Forrester Creations to be surprisingly relatable. I also like the fact that he has been known to manipulate those close to his life, and for seducing Ridge's daughters Phoebe and Steffy Forrester, even going as far as seducing their mother, Dr. Taylor Hayes, all in a twisted revenge plot against Ridge.

He's a fairly complex character that you don't see very often on TV these days.
 
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Fahdis

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Who's your favorite character?

Mine is Rick Forrester because we share the same first name and I find his extreme jealous obsession of Ridge Forrester and his relationship with Eric, and Ridge's position at Forrester Creations to be surprisingly relatable. I also like the fact that he has been known to manipulate those close to his life, and for seducing Ridge's daughters Phoebe and Steffy Forrester, even going as far as seducing their mother, Dr. Taylor Hayes, all in a twisted revenge plot against Ridge.

He's a fairly complex character that you don't see very often on TV these days.
This is a really long time to win the boss battle fren!
 
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Tesseract

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Who's your favorite character?

Mine is Rick Forrester because we share the same first name and I find his extreme jealous obsession of Ridge Forrester and his relationship with Eric, and Ridge's position at Forrester Creations to be surprisingly relatable. I also like the fact that he has been known to manipulate those close to his life, and for seducing Ridge's daughters Phoebe and Steffy Forrester, even going as far as seducing their mother, Dr. Taylor Hayes, all in a twisted revenge plot against Ridge.

He's a fairly complex character that you don't see very often on TV these days.
you wanna go to war with me

*spits blood*

 
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Xaero Testosterone

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No one gets away with anything. Justice will be served sooner or later.
Hard to get justice against someone the mainstream media has placed on a pedestal as the symbol for their fight against those questioning their journalistic integrity, or lack thereof.

Unless she gets caught with a smoking gun in her hand, they won't write a negative thing about her, as evidenced by this whole tragedy as well as her Kickstarter fiasco.
 
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TLZ

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Hard to get justice against someone the mainstream media has placed on a pedestal as the symbol for their fight against those questioning their journalistic integrity, or lack thereof.

Unless she gets caught with a smoking gun in her hand, they won't write a negative thing about her, as evidenced by this whole tragedy as well as her Kickstarter fiasco.
Justice comes in many ways, shapes and forms, my friend :)
 
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hariseldon

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Bit of an aside but I wonder, do events like this turn people off working in the industry?

I get such an us vs. them impression of things at the moment (on all sides). Work is hard enough usually and it seems like all this extra political turmoil is really not worth it. I'm not saying you should excuse people who hurt others but there is surely a point where would-be developers (or even writers) just say nah fuck it and seek to apply their skills elsewhere.

I worked for a university and it was fairly political at times as you'd expect. Gaming seems off the chart lately.
I’m a software developer, a pretty good one. I love games and even made games on the Atari ST as a kid. I’d never even consider being a game developer now, I make good money without the hassle and incestuousness of the games industry, don’t have to work insane hours, and still enjoy what I do. I can’t be alone in swerving gaming due to the whole environment which seems unpleasant in many different ways.
 

ROMhack

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I’m a software developer, a pretty good one. I love games and even made games on the Atari ST as a kid. I’d never even consider being a game developer now, I make good money without the hassle and incestuousness of the games industry, don’t have to work insane hours, and still enjoy what I do. I can’t be alone in swerving gaming due to the whole environment which seems unpleasant in many different ways.
Yeah 'unpleasant' is the right word.

I went to an interview at a publisher a few weeks ago. I didn't get the job but I was kinda pleased because I was worried about working in the industry. I even went as far as checking over my old blogs and social media accounts because I was like shit, what about if anything I said in the past could be taken as incriminating later down the line.

For me it really woke (hue) me up about how negatively I perceive the industry. It's a genuine worry that you could accidentally do or say something and become an outcast overnight.

It's why I really feel for Alex. They dug up so much old shit and it caused him misery despite having nothing to do with him as a developer.
 
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Clear

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Yeah 'unpleasant' is the right word.

I went to an interview at a publisher a few weeks ago. I didn't get the job but I was kinda pleased because I was worried about working in the industry. I even went as far as checking over my old blogs and social media accounts because I was like shit, what about if anything I said in the past could be taken as incriminating later down the line.

For me it really woke (hue) me up about how negatively I perceive the industry. It's a genuine worry that you could accidentally do or say something and become an outcast overnight.

It's why I really feel for Alex. They dug up so much old shit and it caused him misery despite having nothing to do with him as a developer.
Don't judge the industry based on a tiny minority of noisy idiots, and don't use social media.

Problem solved.

These people are nowhere near as significant as they, or their media allies, want you to believe.
 

Kadayi

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Hard to get justice against someone the mainstream media has placed on a pedestal as the symbol for their fight against those questioning their journalistic integrity, or lack thereof.

Unless she gets caught with a smoking gun in her hand, they won't write a negative thing about her, as evidenced by this whole tragedy as well as her Kickstarter fiasco.
I'm fairly sure at this juncture she could be caught on camera dropping kicking babies into an incinerator and her numerous allies would be pledging their swords to her. tbh, If anything was going to happen, it would have by now. Personally I hope this is the last thread we ever have about her, but I suspect that's unlikely.
 
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bad

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Yeah 'unpleasant' is the right word.

I went to an interview at a publisher a few weeks ago. I didn't get the job but I was kinda pleased because I was worried about working in the industry. I even went as far as checking over my old blogs and social media accounts because I was like shit, what about if anything I said in the past could be taken as incriminating later down the line.

For me it really woke (hue) me up about how negatively I perceive the industry. It's a genuine worry that you could accidentally do or say something and become an outcast overnight.

It's why I really feel for Alex. They dug up so much old shit and it caused him misery despite having nothing to do with him as a developer.
I’m in the same boat. I deleted most of my social media accounts, and only kept a few for work, but I would lie to you if I said I wasn’t afraid of getting bit in the ass by some remark I made. As a misanthropist, I’m quite comfortable not dealing with people, but it’s not ideal for this profession.
 

AntiCap

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More balanced than I think people were giving her credit for. Seems like she also got a nice shock of her own about the circles she runs in:

It was the responses from people I felt close to and looked up to that hurt the most. The ones who pretended nothing had happened, who wrote long articles days later, who tried to wrap bows around the narrative to fit it into a specific box, who I thought were socially aware but realized were just very good at storytelling. Those hurt the most, even when they had very worthy goals, because I saw how they were perpetuating more harm and silencing even more survivors. We all have a right to our feelings, but when those feelings become public narratives, they gain a kind of power.
 
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Rock And Roll

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Alec's sister has posted another blog.
Well hopefully this puts an end to the whole "his sister didn't care/was a femnazi" angle. Her initial response wasn't the best, but I understand it was written in a time of extreme grief and emotional turbulence. I hope her and her family can find some form of peace, but in a situation like this I don't know if there's anything that can ever be done. And I really hope as she mentioned in her post that people don't harass her or her family anymore over this. They don't deserve any headaches considering what they have to deal with.
 
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What I will say is this: Alec was a victim of abuse that he could not talk about publicly. I believed him when he told me about his experiences and I still do. I also knew Alec to be emotionally abusive. Later in life, he acknowledged this toxic behaviour in his relationships and worked to amend it, as well as to take responsibility for the harm he’d caused. That was all part of the intensive therapy he went through during the production of Night in the Woods, where he was also coping with his own PTSD.

If we want to believe survivors, it means that we need to also believe Alec. In trying to formulate a statement in the last few days of his life, Alec was being told that he shouldn’t say his perspective publicly, that no one would believe him. He wanted to publicly apologize and take responsibility for the things that he had done, but not for the things he hadn’t. There were a number of stories posted over the last month detailing different abusive relationships with Alec. I know that there are likely even more that were not posted. These stories are all true in their own ways, even if they don’t always correspond with what was true for Alec.
So, in the days before Alec's death he was discussing the fact that some of the allegations levied against him were false. Also, was told that he shouldn't share his side of the story publicly (presumably the woke line that defending yourself makes other women feel like they can't speak out). I wonder how differently things could have gone if he wasn't stifled from sharing his side. If he actually had a fighting chance of saving some of his reputation or at least bringing nuance into the discussion.

Also more of this "personal truth" "my truth" nonsense. For truth to exist as a concept it has to exist irrespective of anyones subjective experience. Obviously, reading the article, you can tell she's wording everything with extreme caution to avoid a cancelling and I do feel sympathetic in that regard. I wish no one would harass her or send her shitty messages. But the idea that people have their own truth is bull shit and it has to go. It's just an excuse for liars to never be held to account for their lies.
 

GreyHorace

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Alec's sister has posted another blog.
What a load of disingenuous crap. She keeps going on about her brother's troubles and how that contributed to his suicide. All the while not naming even once the person indirectly responsible for this tragedy (Zoe Quinn).

I have no sympathy for this woman. All she's doing is throwing her brother's memory under the bus all because she's afraid of turning her woke allies against her.
 
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Rya.Reisender

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Bit of an aside but I wonder, do events like this turn people off working in the industry?
Hmm, tough question for me, but I guess the answer is "Yes".

I'm quite unpopular online and said a lot of crazy stuff during the span of my life. I feel if I now went and released one of the games I developed and it ended up getting really popular, I would definitely become a target.

Hell, I was scared just uploading an LP of my own game because I feared someone might recognize my voice.

I've never really seen it as a problem specifically to the gaming industry, though. For me it's more a general problem of social networks and people no longer trying to understand each other.
 

hariseldon

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Alec's sister has posted another blog.
For those who don't want to read it all here are some highlights.

To be completely frank, I am terrified to post this. I’m scared that people will decide that my years of social media research, game dev work, feminist activism, and support of marginalized individuals will no longer matter.
I think that right there is a very telling bit - she's really afraid of upsetting the woke police. She knows they'll make her life hell.

If we want to believe survivors, it means that we need to also believe Alec. In trying to formulate a statement in the last few days of his life, Alec was being told that he shouldn’t say his perspective publicly, that no one would believe him. He wanted to publicly apologize and take responsibility for the things that he had done, but not for the things he hadn’t.
She's taking the risk in saying that if we believe women we should also believe men. As for people telling Alec not to share his perspective.. that's a mixed bit of advice. I was demonised by a group of trolls (see my earlier post in this thread) - I had issues and at times I was an asshole but my assholery was out of proportion with a decade of hate and stalking, but one of the things that was consistent with this is that I too couldn't express the truth of what was true and what was not as people piled on with stuff that was just made up. It got a bit like the old Chuck Norris jokes in the end, such was the level of silliness of the things I was apparently capable of doing. I did my best to defend myself, but was dogpiled and attacked by a group that simply wasn't willing to listen, and this was pre-social media. In a world of Twitter I'd have been up shit creek with no sign of a paddle. As it was, I managed to lay low and eventually rebuild my life. Alec wasn't so fortunate, and that's part of why this really gets to me.

What seems much more important to me in this moment is what we mean when we say “I believe survivors” and what we choose to do when we are confronted with a narrative of abuse. These narratives deserve care and attention and love, but not immediate action. We can acknowledge, support, and believe survivors without needing to try and ‘solve’ a situation immediately.
Entirely sensible and nuanced, and while a little scared and timid it's making the point that we shouldn't dogpile in as soon as an allegation is made. It seems to me that she's trying to defuse things but also trying to make a statement against this bullshit in a very cautious way. She's going to get burned at the stake for it sadly.

I understand all too well why victims of abuse take to public platforms. I know firsthand how broken the legal system can be. It has failed us in so many ways and we’re scrambling to find an alternative. That said, this current system is also deeply broken, because it is not a system at all. There are no rules here, no guidelines, and no accountability. There are no processes for rehabilitation.
She's right - we have no mechanism for rehabilitation and forgiveness. And again she's speaking out against the public posts, understanding why some choose to make them but observing that they're not the right way. Trying her hardest not to come under fire from the usual suspects while expressing ideas that I think most of us in this thread would acknowledge, that public shaming is a fucked up way to deal with this stuff.

As she writes, “[w]ithout integrity, ethics, good boundaries and a clear plan of action, an accountability process runs the risk of becoming abusive.”
Mob justice is abusive.

The thing that will continue to break my heart is that Alec was already working on becoming a better person. The last few years with him were very different. He had not been at risk of suicide for years. He had been fighting, extremely hard, to heal both himself and others. He had a new relationship and it was blossoming. (She stayed with him until the very end because the person she saw in front of her was good, kind, and deserving of support.) He made mindful efforts to apologize to the people he had hurt over the years. Some accepted and some didn’t (and he respected those boundaries).
Seems he was finally starting to heal when all this crap kicked off, only making it more tragic.

I was surprised not to see any of that nuance and care coming from many of the game devs I once admired, not even the ones who have made games about mental health.
That's totally Zoe, right there.

We need to be careful about how we use our narratives, especially when we have large followings and a lot of influence.
This speaks to the imbalance of power between Zoe and Alec, and indeed of the woke Twittersphere as a whole and how it attacks individuals who can't fight back.

Alec’s suicide was not an attack against anyone. It was not done to prove a point
Brave to say that when that's 90% of the woke response to his death, that his suicide was one final attack on Zoe.

Overall it's a good post. Nuanced, taking a first brave step towards acknowledging the harm done by the Twitter mob while trying to avoid being another of its victims (sadly that won't work). I hope she doesn't regret the post.


EDIT: Just want to highlight the link at https://www.dailyxtra.com/i-believe-my-friend-has-changed-their-abusive-ways-but-our-queer-friends-dont-buy-it-how-can-i-support-my-friend-162031?fbclid=IwAR11WJWoGvgn5ZP5Cg_nH00Pp3rjHqYD8tddSb4O2mQhVMEryj00YimKj5A which could easily be missed - it's an interesting read. While it's from someone very much in that left social-justice space it does offer a hint at trying to move away from the mob mentality of social justice and acknowledges that this IS a problem.
 
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Barnabot

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Eileen's article is still bullshit.


"To be completely frank, I am terrified to post this. I’m scared that people will decide that my years of social media research, game dev work, feminist activism, and support of marginalized individuals will no longer matter "

You shouldn't be. He was your fucking family. He was no class A monster according to what I've read about him before his suicide. And the woke people you are afraid are just a bunch of pussies and social media is their playground. Change my mind. Still you can help people, humans being, without ever venturing into feminist activism. That doesn't make you less woman than your are.


And back to the subject: If you don't defend your own fucking family specially the ones who were seeking help ...

"
What I will say is this: Alec was a victim of abuse that he could not talk about publicly. I believed him when he told me about his experiences and I still do. I also knew Alec to be emotionally abusive. Later in life, he acknowledged this toxic behaviour in his relationships and worked to amend it, as well as to take responsibility for the harm he’d caused. That was all part of the intensive therapy he went through during the production of Night in the Woods, where he was also coping with his own PTSD.

If we want to believe survivors, it means that we need to also believe Alec. In trying to formulate a statement in the last few days of his life
"
that were your words, lady.

And I'll say it again: If you don't defend your own fucking family especially the ones who were seeking help then don't expect people to respect you in return because they will know you can't really stand for shit even if you think your activism and work mattered( to you only)..

Do you know what's true? your brother is dead. He commited suicide for some claim that wasn't brought to justice yet. And no one stood for him when he had a chance.

You brother is dead Eileen. Zoey brought him hell for vanity. Yes vanity. All she wanted in the end was attention. She got what she wanted . Your brother commiting suicide was a bonus. You should be growing a pair of balls(figuratively) or wearing a big girl's pant and stop posting mild articles about you brother's suicide and then return Zoey the favor. Give her what she initially was insinuating that she wanted: justice.

Prosecute the bitch: bring the whole subject to the light. See for yourself what 's true and what's not. The truth will set you free. And then you will be starting seeing some closure to your brother's suicide.