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Drama Zoe Quinn #meToo / Alec Holowka suicide -- Update: Article questions ZQ's account of events (link in OP)

Bitmap Frogs

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Well, yeah.

That's an interesting and nuanced take.

You can feel how she's trying to make a path between her woke ideology and the fact wokeness just straight up murdered her brother.
 
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lifa-cobex

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The very fact she wrote this article (and this is based on nothing really) kinda gives me the impression she doesn't really believe Zoe.

Was anything really proven? (genuine question).
I've seen Zoe's twitter posts from when they were together and nothing gives the impression of foul play between the two.

It's one thing to have hold the moral of "listen and believe". But then life might come at you fast and test that moral of yours.
I don't think anything is going to test you more that the death of a family member.

I think at the very least she's questioning the morality of mob justice around accusations.

I've known three people in my past that where in the thick of progressiveness but around different things.
One of them is in deep and I have little to do with. Another is on the surface levels of it. (She turns it off when she's in others company).
The third is well out now and has admitted that the only reason she started opening her mind up was because she was rejected by the circle.
She's said a few times that she was just terrified of becoming the enemy by people who knew her, so she just went along to deeper and deeper progressive thinking's.

I get the feeling Eileen is wanting to say something but is walking on egg shells. She doesn't want to loose her circle especially if her career is in with it.
On that point of her career. She may well torn in two for many years. If you break the conditioning then she will break everything and have to start all over again.
Think Westboro Baptist Church. If you want to leave, then you have to leave EVERYTHING.

But like I said. That's just an off the cuff theory i'm getting from some of these talking points.
 

Enjay

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The very fact she wrote this article (and this is based on nothing really) kinda gives me the impression she doesn't really believe Zoe.

Was anything really proven? (genuine question).
I've seen Zoe's twitter posts from when they were together and nothing gives the impression of foul play between the two.

It's one thing to have hold the moral of "listen and believe". But then life might come at you fast and test that moral of yours.
I don't think anything is going to test you more that the death of a family member.

I think at the very least she's questioning the morality of mob justice around accusations.

I've known three people in my past that where in the thick of progressiveness but around different things.
One of them is in deep and I have little to do with. Another is on the surface levels of it. (She turns it off when she's in others company).
The third is well out now and has admitted that the only reason she started opening her mind up was because she was rejected by the circle.
She's said a few times that she was just terrified of becoming the enemy by people who knew her, so she just went along to deeper and deeper progressive thinking's.

I get the feeling Eileen is wanting to say something but is walking on egg shells. She doesn't want to loose her circle especially if her career is in with it.
On that point of her career. She may well torn in two for many years. If you break the conditioning then she will break everything and have to start all over again.
Think Westboro Baptist Church. If you want to leave, then you have to leave EVERYTHING.

But like I said. That's just an off the cuff theory i'm getting from some of these talking points.
I just hope Zoe doesn't get to unlock the 2 for 1 achievement.
 

Clear

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It's insane how fragile these people act. I'm a man and I've been working in games for a long time. I've dealt with *much* worse than either Scott or Albertine are detailing here, and probably just about everyone in the industry has. Everything they're describing is fairly standard interpersonal drama that comes from working on a project for a long time with a small team.

Was Alec difficult to work with sometimes? I don't know, maybe. Scott and Albertine seem to think so, and that's fair enough, I guess. But it's also none of my business. It's no one's business except theirs. I've dealt with tons of difficult coworkers. To other people, I've probably *been* that difficult coworker. I do my best, but I'm not perfect, and no one is. We're all human. We all get frustrated and have personality clashes sometimes.

One thing that I think is telling about Zoe, Scott, and Albertine's accounts is that they all reference Alec getting frustrated with them. They each attempt to use this as a cudgel, as if him being frustrated with them indicates some sort of huge, glaring character flaw on his part. Not one of them turns that lens inward and wonders if maybe his frustration was valid, and what *they* could have done. Ironically, they're attacking him for expressing his own feelings of frustration... in their own essays expressing their frustration.

Even taking these accounts entirely at face value, the worst thing Benson and Watson can level at Holowka is that he was moody, occasionally aloof, and occasionally rude (and in Benson's case, he seems frustrated that Alec pushed him to work almost-standard hour work days, which is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard). Watson alleges that he made some kind of romantic advance on her and then stopped when she told him not to. I'm not saying these are good qualities. I'm sure Holowka was no saint; that much, I believe. But they're not crimes, either. If anything, they're fairly mundane. Many of these things, in one form or another, are probably things they themselves have done to others.

If the mood struck me, I could write similar petty diatribes about lots of my old bosses and coworkers (many of whom have been women, for whatever that's worth). I'm not going to, because I'm an adult, I handled my own shit, and I recognize that other people have their own problems and they don't need to hear about my interpersonal drama from years ago. I also recognize that there are two sides to every story, and that even my old coworkers who annoyed me don't deserve to have their every failing blasted onto the internet for total strangers to see.

I'd never heard of a lot of these people before this, so I don't particularly have a dog in this fight. I'd like to think I've approached it with an open mind. But every single time one of them has written more on the subject, I've become less and less convinced that they're victims. They don't sound brave or beaten-down. They sound entitled. I wish them all the best. I get that they're probably dealing with a lot of heavy shit right now, and that there are also a lot of assholes on the internet who want to attack them for it. That's not okay. But neither is enabling them.
Just quoting this to reemphasize why it is without doubt the single best and most on-point in this entire thread.
Bravo. Nail hit on head perfectly insofar as providing as polite and considered a rebuttal of the recent claims made against Holowka as anyone could reasonably ask. It articulates perfectly why I was so incensed and insulted by Benson's miserably self piteous and simultaneously loathsomely self aggrandizing screed.
 

Clear

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I'd also add regarding Eileen's post on Medium, you can see a substantial shift in tenor over the month following Alec's suicide, and I'd expect it to move even further over the months and years to come.

Over time, I'd suspect she'll come to the unpleasant realization that the cliques and ideological circles she is still appeasing and defending are just as flawed and perhaps even less accountable than the "broken" legal system.

People are people. You can be an activist or advocate for any number of noble causes and still be a shitty human being,

A long time ago on GAF, back at the height of the "Nerds are cool" fad in the media, I wrote that how that a lot of the worst, most vindictive, petty, and spiteful people I've encountered over the years were "geeks", "nerds", etc. How It isn't a badge of honor and personal integrity, its just an umbrella term for people who share certain common interests, appearances, and as such had a particularly slanted social experience in their youth.

I see the exact same thing happening with the LBTQ+ designation. Just because a person faces discrimination for something about their lifestyle it should never be conflated with personal integrity and virtue. On trait does not confer the other, people are so much more complicated than that.

Right now, ideological minorities are using actual minorities, the oppressed and injured as a rhetorical human shield to effectively immunize themselves from criticism, and to impose their socio-political will on the majority.

They use the dogma of intersectionalism to create a illusory scale to their constituency, weaponize their grievances of that larger community, and use that to leverage their infleunce using a combination of emotional/legal manipulation and in extreme cases terroristic threats.

That may sound hyperbolic,. but I believe that is an accurate reading of the situation.

Go back and look at what happened to Bret Weinstein at Evergreen, Benjamin Boyce has an extensive documentation of that particular debacle on Youtube. When you watch that, I'd urge you to consider two things. Firstly the psycho-dynamics of the people involved with both the faculty and student body (mindset, motivation, response to the spiralling shitstorm), and secondly, and most importantly, consider the number of active participants in the scenario/protests and the relative size of the entire student population at the institution.

What you'll see is how a literal handful of activists effectively manipulated a student body and faculty of nearly 4 thousand members and created a national sensation.

It shows how powerful ideological minorities' influence can be when the majority does not assert itself.
 

buizel

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I'd also add regarding Eileen's post on Medium, you can see a substantial shift in tenor over the month following Alec's suicide, and I'd expect it to move even further over the months and years to come.

Over time, I'd suspect she'll come to the unpleasant realization that the cliques and ideological circles she is still appeasing and defending are just as flawed and perhaps even less accountable than the "broken" legal system.

People are people. You can be an activist or advocate for any number of noble causes and still be a shitty human being,

A long time ago on GAF, back at the height of the "Nerds are cool" fad in the media, I wrote that how that a lot of the worst, most vindictive, petty, and spiteful people I've encountered over the years were "geeks", "nerds", etc. How It isn't a badge of honor and personal integrity, its just an umbrella term for people who share certain common interests, appearances, and as such had a particularly slanted social experience in their youth.

I see the exact same thing happening with the LBTQ+ designation. Just because a person faces discrimination for something about their lifestyle it should never be conflated with personal integrity and virtue. On trait does not confer the other, people are so much more complicated than that.

Right now, ideological minorities are using actual minorities, the oppressed and injured as a rhetorical human shield to effectively immunize themselves from criticism, and to impose their socio-political will on the majority.

They use the dogma of intersectionalism to create a illusory scale to their constituency, weaponize their grievances of that larger community, and use that to leverage their infleunce using a combination of emotional/legal manipulation and in extreme cases terroristic threats.

That may sound hyperbolic,. but I believe that is an accurate reading of the situation.

Go back and look at what happened to Bret Weinstein at Evergreen, Benjamin Boyce has an extensive documentation of that particular debacle on Youtube. When you watch that, I'd urge you to consider two things. Firstly the psycho-dynamics of the people involved with both the faculty and student body (mindset, motivation, response to the spiralling shitstorm), and secondly, and most importantly, consider the number of active participants in the scenario/protests and the relative size of the entire student population at the institution.

What you'll see is how a literal handful of activists effectively manipulated a student body and faculty of nearly 4 thousand members and created a national sensation.

It shows how powerful ideological minorities' influence can be when the majority does not assert itself.
So you're saying you hate women? ;)

Good post in all seriousness.

It genuinely worries me that rational thinking these days is being pushed aside for outlandish logic and hoop-jumping mind games, and that those theories are now trying to become 'rational' thinking.

Part of me think crazies are trying to make everyone else crazy so they can seem normal in their little bubble-world.

If some people are so keen to prove a link between gaming and misogny/hate because of a few examples, then drawing a link between Trans/LGBT and Mental Illness should hardly be shocking considering a number of them encourage mental illness, self-harm and upsetting the establishment. Therefor why are so many people taking LGBT-think as 'the final word' when those thoughts come from a mentally imbalanced place?

I think Greta answered that: " I want you to feel the fear I feel every day ". Those aren't words anyone would want to hear.

I hope that made sense, im not the best at articulating
 
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infinitys_7th

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Alec's sister has posted another blog.
Why the change? Before she was seemingly more consoling of Chelsea than her own brother.

How is this still trending? Has she killed another dude by stress again or something?
It should be kept going as long as possible. The industry does not need to forget Alex's suicide and how they covered it up ("Alec died") and protected a person with a history of being a lying sociopath. Hell, she just faked another rape allegation against Max Landis before this that went from "He raped me!" to "Well, he was just an asshole when I met him, but it was like rape!". This albatross needs to hang around their neck as long as possible, and TBH I hope it torments some of them. I'm sure Chelsea doesn't care because she doesn't have emotions other than wanting attention, but maybe some of her allies will change.
 
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Clear

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So much of this stuff can be boiled to down to simple ego-tripping.

I don't believe there's a great ideological plan or political vision behind the overwhelming majority of social justice activism, its just a convenient vehicle to feel superior to others, and get that "space-cadet glow" of being with the crowd. They have demands but no real plan, its why when you try and pick it all apart its just a mess of contradictions and mutually-exclusive statements.

Trouble is, while its all fun "knocking down the statues", what they aren't considering who's going to step into the rubble they lead behind and exploit the situation in the future. Its why their assault on civil liberties and freedom of speech is so dangerous. I have no worry of a future dominated by SJW's and Feminazi's, what scares me are real authoritarians/totalitarians stepping into the breech to "save us" and using the precedents set by these fools to seize control.
 

ExpandKong

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So much of this stuff can be boiled to down to simple ego-tripping.

I don't believe there's a great ideological plan or political vision behind the overwhelming majority of social justice activism, its just a convenient vehicle to feel superior to others, and get that "space-cadet glow" of being with the crowd. They have demands but no real plan, its why when you try and pick it all apart its just a mess of contradictions and mutually-exclusive statements.

Trouble is, while its all fun "knocking down the statues", what they aren't considering who's going to step into the rubble they lead behind and exploit the situation in the future. Its why their assault on civil liberties and freedom of speech is so dangerous. I have no worry of a future dominated by SJW's and Feminazi's, what scares me are real authoritarians/totalitarians stepping into the breech to "save us" and using the precedents set by these fools to seize control.
AKA “useful idiots.”
 

captainraincoat

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I'd also add regarding Eileen's post on Medium, you can see a substantial shift in tenor over the month following Alec's suicide, and I'd expect it to move even further over the months and years to come.

Over time, I'd suspect she'll come to the unpleasant realization that the cliques and ideological circles she is still appeasing and defending are just as flawed and perhaps even less accountable than the "broken" legal system.

People are people. You can be an activist or advocate for any number of noble causes and still be a shitty human being,

A long time ago on GAF, back at the height of the "Nerds are cool" fad in the media, I wrote that how that a lot of the worst, most vindictive, petty, and spiteful people I've encountered over the years were "geeks", "nerds", etc. How It isn't a badge of honor and personal integrity, its just an umbrella term for people who share certain common interests, appearances, and as such had a particularly slanted social experience in their youth.

I see the exact same thing happening with the LBTQ+ designation. Just because a person faces discrimination for something about their lifestyle it should never be conflated with personal integrity and virtue. On trait does not confer the other, people are so much more complicated than that.

Right now, ideological minorities are using actual minorities, the oppressed and injured as a rhetorical human shield to effectively immunize themselves from criticism, and to impose their socio-political will on the majority.

They use the dogma of intersectionalism to create a illusory scale to their constituency, weaponize their grievances of that larger community, and use that to leverage their infleunce using a combination of emotional/legal manipulation and in extreme cases terroristic threats.

That may sound hyperbolic,. but I believe that is an accurate reading of the situation.

Go back and look at what happened to Bret Weinstein at Evergreen, Benjamin Boyce has an extensive documentation of that particular debacle on Youtube. When you watch that, I'd urge you to consider two things. Firstly the psycho-dynamics of the people involved with both the faculty and student body (mindset, motivation, response to the spiralling shitstorm), and secondly, and most importantly, consider the number of active participants in the scenario/protests and the relative size of the entire student population at the institution.

What you'll see is how a literal handful of activists effectively manipulated a student body and faculty of nearly 4 thousand members and created a national sensation.

It shows how powerful ideological minorities' influence can be when the majority does not assert itself.
Good post....don’t often say that but u have a good head on your shoulders
 
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Knivess

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Meanwhile Scott Benson is tweeting jokes about cancel culture



The first of these was made immediately after Alec's sister made her recent Medium post.

Personally i'm starting to hate this twat more than Zoe.
 
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Teslerum

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The first of these was made immediately after Alec's sister made her recent Medium post.

Personally i'm starting to hate this twat more than Zoe.
That... is scary.

Personally, I know few people that would go immediatly to jokes about the subject matter when someone's death is involved. Actually, no. Personally, as in RL, i (hopefully) know none closer. Even if a similiar situation happened to my worst enemy, even if I'm completly innocent. Someone's suicide would lie on my mind for a while. I would need time to get over it.

I've been saying this for a while..., but. Do these people see their fellow men even as human?
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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That... is scary.

Personally, I know few people that would go immediatly to jokes about the subject matter when someone's death is involved. Actually, no. Personally, as in RL, i (hopefully) know none closer. Even if a similiar situation happened to my worst enemy, even if I'm completly innocent. Someone's suicide would lie on my mind for a while. I would need time to get over it.

I've been saying this for a while..., but. Do these people see their fellow men even as human?
Clearly not. This person was supposedly friends with Alec, and yet he acts in such a continued repugnant and vile fashion.

I am having a harder time separating art from artist and I may just start to actively tell people not to bother with NitW anymore.
 

Crash Station

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I'm not sure how you can come away from that article thinking Eileen is selfish and threw her brother under the bus for what he did. If anything, she's acknowledging the issues with turning accusations into social media circuses of stupidity.

There's nuance to the discussion, and she understands the current climate and cancel culture in general has completely sapped out that nuance among the greater public. It's very clear she's having an internal struggle with her beliefs and the actual reality those beliefs bring about. Even with those sincerely held beliefs, she's realizing so many people that aren't sincere including people that create media with that sincerity about mental health as a basis. When you come to the conclusion that so many around you are totally fake in their socially aware musings, yeah, you're not gonna take it super well at first. I don't expect her to stand with people like Zoe Quinn as time goes on, not just because of the very human reaction of resentment setting in, but because it's clear those methods aren't working.

She also liked this tweet:
 
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I am having a harder time separating art from artist and I may just start to actively tell people not to bother with NitW anymore.
Yeah, people should avoid putting money in Scott "Judas Iscariot" Benson's pocket. The game doesn't look my style despite the fact I really like the artwork and the music. Regardless, the OST has some real gems like Possum Springs...
 

IzukuMidoriya

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I'm not sure how you can come away from that article thinking Eileen is selfish and threw her brother under the bus for what he did. If anything, she's acknowledging the issues with turning accusations into social media circuses of stupidity.
Another example of "rules for thee but not for me", as in, according to social media, you're not allowed to question the narrative but when we do it, it's fine.

I really think those studies that always come out about Facebook being terrible for your health are absolutely true, and we've been seeing it ramp up quickly since Trump got elected. Social media didn't get who they wanted as president and with social media breeding narcissism, they start to censor and vilify people who don't agree with them.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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One reason they hate the former members who see how things are over there and leave even more than the actual fascists
The Cheka were formed and then were replaced by the GPU briefly, which was replaced by the OGPU, which was replaced by the NKVD, which was replaced by NKGB, then MGB, then MVD, then finally the titular KGB that Westerners all know from the movies.

At each stage, portions of these groups were thrown into gulag and eventually executed. Each transition to a new state agency erased the worst crimes (and the people who knew about them) from history.

Former members are more than just baggage to them, they know.
 

Doczu

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Yup, they are fucked up in their sad heads.
But don't worry. They are just edgy, none of them would dare to say it in your face. They are easy target for bullying.
 

ROMhack

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She still sounds too scared to actually say what she thinks. That's my main takeaway from this sad blog. She's still letting them dictate what she thinks and says.
Sounds that way to me too but I don't blame her. The internet has become a really poor way for people to express how they truly think and feel over the past few years.

It's really far removed from what seemed to be the original intention of having so many people communicate and express themselves together.
 

MacReady13

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I'm not too sure there is a lower form of scum than what Zoe Quinn is. A liar. A manipulator. An abuser. How she continues to get away with what she does from people in the fucked up video games media is beyond my comprehension.
 
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Ballthyrm

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What you'll see is how a literal handful of activists effectively manipulated a student body and faculty of nearly 4 thousand members and created a national sensation.

It shows how powerful ideological minorities' influence can be when the majority does not assert itself.
There is a well known cognitive bias that explain that.
It is called "Pluralistic ignorance".

“a phenomenon in which you feel like you’re different from everyone else, but in fact you are exactly the same. It’s a kind of illusory deviance,
a sense that you are not with the majority that everyone in the majority can have simultaneously.”

There is a really good podcast episode about that from the "you are not so smart " podcast.

Ideological minorities exploit that bias to their own interest, time and time again.
The episode is totally worth it to listen to, but also kinda scary.
 
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CausticVenom

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I just want to know if there was any evidence that he did indeed rape her. I'm not willing to dig through 76 pages so somebody just give me a TL;DR, please.

I personally think he committed suicide because his life was over but I'd like to see evidence.
 
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IIRC, Chelsea accused somebody else of rape in the same pass as accusing Alec of hard fingering and mind games. What she described doesn't even constitute Coercion(forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by threats of force/intimidation). One of her Twitter "friends/contacts" did a deep dive and found hundreds of Tweets she made during that time, many of which directly contradicted her claims.

Anna Slatz from The Post Millennial covered the story quite well.
 
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Nope as in that I don't deserve to know or nope as in there wasn't any substantial evidence? Lol.
The only evidence is Zoe's own statement, which didn't say that Alec Holowka raped her instead saying that he stuck his fingers inside her and walked her around the house like he was Jim Henson or something. The other corroborating statements lend credence to parts of Zoe's account, namely that Alec could be a bit of a pain in the arse to work with and probably had emotional/mental issues. However none of the other statements contain any mention of sexual assault.

In other words the only evidence is Zoe Quinn's own words and, as has been extensively documented in the previous 76 pages, Zoe Quinn's word don't mean shit because she's a narcissistic, possibly mentally ill, deeply manipulative, compulsive, pathological liar. Unfortunately I don't have the time or space to go into that here, you'll just have to sift through the last 70-odd pages for proof.
 

Kadayi

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Nope as in that I don't deserve to know or nope as in there wasn't any substantial evidence? Lol.
Honestly, everything that you need to read is in the very first post. He was never accused of raping her (she met him after she'd been raped by someone she didn't name). However, according to her, she fell into an abusive relationship with him but there are some serious doubt.gif questions over the realities of that given her very own social media presence at the time seemed to suggest otherwise. YMMV on where you fall on these things. The inherent problem with human memory is, its scientifically fallible. Whenever you remember things from the distant past, not everything gets recalled, so the brain fills in the gaps a little as to what it thinks was going on. Which then becomes the new version of that memory, rinse repeat. If you've ever returned to a place you went to as a child you'll understand the discordance.
 
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