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[Deleted member 1235]

The WHO rank the NHS above the US when considering all metrics. But the glorification of the NHS is strange to the British who are used to it being grossly underfunded for decades. Every election, reducing NHS waiting lists and access the services are major political points of debate.

The NHS has one obvious point in its favour over anything in the US: it's free. I doubt anyone in the UK would be surprised you can get better healthcare in private hospitals in other countries (or even private hospitals in the UK).

pretty much how it works in NZ as well. I got meningitis once and got fixed up for free. Fancy people have the option to pay for private health care if they want. My step father got a busted hip and needed a new one, he just walked around with a busted hip for about 9 months and then got a free one. It all worked out great, but that was a crap nine months.

I was looking up metrics a while ago. We have loads of expats here and they are always whining about how awful the dutch medical system is. I went hunting one day and found it was outstandingly good (with an amusingly low score for 'customer service' though, which I believe is what really irks the americans here).

 

[ZealousD]

How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

 

[Deleted member 1235]

actually looking at the WHO rankings here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems

I got a really good chuckle out of the following criticism.

Journalist John Stossel notes that the use of life expectancy figures is misleading and the life expectancy in the United States is held down by homicides, accidents, poor diet, and lack of exercise. When controlled for these facts, Stossel claims that American life expectancy is actually one of the highest in the world.[4] A publication by the Pacific Research Institute in 2006 claims to have found that Americans outlive people in every other Western country, when controlled for homicides and car accidents.[5] Stossel also criticizes the ranking for favoring socialized healthcare, noting that "a country with high-quality care overall but 'unequal distribution' would rank below a country with lower quality care but equal distribution."[4]

'guys, if we don't count all our murders accidents and being so fucking fat we die all the time, then actually we live pretty long!'

what's that about.

also the second bolded bit essentially to 'but our rich people get the best'
uh... everyone knows that about America John Stossel..

 

[WARCOCK]

How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

I'm sorry but American expertise is worth that much. We have the best medical and nursing schools in the world. When that IV needle it slides in like a hot knife through butter, it feels euphoric. Europeans have subpar care in comparison.

 

[Ether_Snake]

It's bullshit, here in Quebec they'll put you on a waiting list, then recommend a private doctor, who just happens to be the same one who is working in the room next door, with the same staff, and all of it will be done in the same building with the same tools, right now! There were investigative reports showing how specialists perform operations in the "private" sector but using the public facilities, equipment, and staff, and they didn't pay the government a dime and they were paid cash.

It's full of corruption.

 

[CLEEK]

'guys, if we don't count all our murders accidents and being so fucking fat we die all the time, then actually we live pretty long!'

Actual lol from me.

He's definitely saying 'if we ignore all the deaths in the US, the US has the highest life expectancy in the World! USA! USA!'

 

[Durask]

Wait hold up, they compared the United Kingdom to Mayo Clinic and not United States in general?



Not to mention that pretty much every other ranking system places the United States incredibly low.

Links?

 

[Durask]

actually looking at the WHO rankings here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems
.

And you don't get a chuckle that they rank Colombia above Canada?

Also, a lot can change in 13 years, you know...

 

[kurbaan]

Yeah because in the USA the dying can't afford to go into the hospital. In fact the best place to die is a hospital. If people are not dieing there then there is a bigger problem.

 

[Durask]

Yeah because in the USA the dying can't afford to go into the hospital. In fact the best place to die is a hospital.

Wow.


Also, this

http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/588086

 

[Deleted member 1235]

And you don't get a chuckle that they rank Colombia above Canada?

Also, a lot can change in 13 years, you know...

did not see that it was 13(!) years old. here's the latest

http://www.who.int/gho/publications/world_health_statistics/EN_WHS2013_Full.pdf

however it's not tabulated in a handy overall score for internet warz.

Interesting info to run through though.

 

[zero shift]

Links?

Pick one.

 

[dalin80]

My sister work admin in a local hospital (UK) it is packed full with old people essentially waiting to die as the hospices are full, what is essentially an A+E hospital has got high death rates in certain areas because it is being used as a massive final care centre.

They could easily halve the death rate overnight but it would entail dumping a hell of a lot of very vulnerable terminally ill patients on a already over stretched hospice system and wiping your hands of providing care.

The press don't care about the facts they just get a kick out of criticising the place for the high numbers not caring for context, same with a infant ward about 20 miles away got heavily criticised for the high mortality rate because the press didn't care that it was a specialist ward for children born with serious health issues.

 

[Durask]

did not see that it was 13(!) years old. here's the latest

http://www.who.int/gho/publications/world_health_statistics/EN_WHS2013_Full.pdf

however it's not tabulated in a handy overall score for internet warz.

Exactly, because an overall score is meaningless, really - except for sound bites and internet warz, yes.

Good that this time they resisted the temptation to produce a meaningless ranking and instead presented useful data.

 

[demolitio]

Yeah because in the USA the dying can't afford to go into the hospital. In fact the best place to die is a hospital. If people are not dieing there then there is a bigger problem.

Except my uncle who got his surgery done for free and never paid a dime without any insurance...Lucky man but I guess it pays to be an alcoholic at times.

Prices are outrageous and it's only going up due to the misleading healthcare changes but the quality of care is still exceptional. Thanks to the new laws, my monthly rates are going up even though I've spent less money for procedures, etc. and my deductible is set to double. Employers are getting taxed heavily for providing TOO GOOD of healthcare above the standard and other employers are destroying their current plans completely. They're trying force people and businesses into a "fair" plan by making them all pay a fortune when the prices were already astronomical.

My plan is a self-paid plan until the VA hopefully comes through for me and the changes are literally going to kill me. The quality of care isn't, the prices are. I could have handled my old rates but the new ones are unsustainable. I was going to one of the best hospitals in the world for treatment and I don't know if I can do that anymore.

Quality won't be the problem but being able to afford it will be. Instead of fixing the problems, they broke it even more and then backed out on the "promises" that were to actually help the people. Instead, employers pay more, employees pay more, self-paid people pay more, doctors make less, Medicaid/Medicare does less, and plenty of other great stuff. My main physician actually just switched to a concierge doctor to avoid the new restrictions, especially the time limits they imposed on Medicaid/care and then 5 of his colleagues just retired early. He was the best doctor I've ever had and actually cared about the patient and would stay with you no matter how long it took, but the bullshit drove him away and he wasn't exactly rich from his job either.

If only they addressed what needed to be addressed instead of punishing all sides to the point where we'll eventually take ANY plan they offer.

 

[Durask]

Pick one.

Yeah and it seems that most of them still refer to that WHO report from 2000

There is also some bloomberg thing where they put together life expectancy and expense per capita which doesn't really tell you anything - aside from soundbytes for media warz.

 

[diamount]

What did I say that was so wrong? Many other posters have reflected what I have said, that in the US, the cost of care make it so that many do not go to hospital or doctors as often as they should.

No, your post about there not being a safety net for elderly in the UK.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

No, your post about there not being a safety net for elderly in the UK.

Oops. Just noticed that, it was a typo. I meant that the US has a lacking safety net compared to the UK.

 

[TAJ]

wait, are some of the people in here arguing that in the US, if someone is facing a severe medical emergency, they'd rather stay at home than go the ER?

I've seen it myself. I've also seen someone refuse an ambulance and go on their own because they knew the ambulance bill would be huge.

 

[diamount]

Oops. Just noticed that, it was a typo. I meant that the US has a lacking safety net compared to the UK.

Oh, I apologize then.

 

[iamaustrian]

People with money come from around the world to the US for their medical care, US is BY FAR AND AWAY the best place in the world for care


Now whether or not an individual can afford it is another topic entirely

no it's not.
I don't know why people still believe this myth.

yes, the USA has more specialists but the treatment is in 99% of the cases the same in other developed countries.

this isn't hollywood. no Dr house and George Clooney

 

[Bauer Action Hour]

Anecdote time: during my departed grandmother's last couple of months of life, she was hospitalized for a good chunk of that time but released to hospice at the end. She died inside of 3 days (might have been 2, my memory is foggy at the moment).

I wonder if those kinds of scenarios are properly adjusted for in these figures.

 

[kitch9]

Article is disgusting actually. Skirts around the most obvious reasons, and builds off soft targets like team-play and advertising instead. Another nail in the coffin for the NHS before the inevitable privatization. Another grass-is-greener article to oil the wheels of the next public service the government want to sell off. I guess focusing on the basics isn't good enough, or is it too much work? We fucked it, whoops sorry. Now we'll give it to the big boys, they can take care of you plebs. Better in their hands, away from us.

You appear to have ingested a decent amount of hyperbole this morning.

 

[Walshicus]

My sister work admin in a local hospital (UK) it is packed full with old people essentially waiting to die as the hospices are full, what is essentially an A+E hospital has got high death rates in certain areas because it is being used as a massive final care centre.

They could easily halve the death rate overnight but it would entail dumping a hell of a lot of very vulnerable terminally ill patients on a already over stretched hospice system and wiping your hands of providing care.

The press don't care about the facts they just get a kick out of criticising the place for the high numbers not caring for context, same with a infant ward about 20 miles away got heavily criticised for the high mortality rate because the press didn't care that it was a specialist ward for children born with serious health issues.

When my grandfather died last year we had a similar situation. He ended up spending weeks in hospital while we were trying to get him into a hospice. Didn't happen and he died in the hospital.

 

[Inversive]

no it's not.
I don't know why people still believe this myth.

yes, the USA has more specialists but the treatment is in 99% of the cases the same in other developed countries.

this isn't hollywood. no Dr house and George Clooney

Americans love believing they are the best in everything.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

 

[The Lamp]

That doesn't mean you aren't left with crippling bills after it's over.

And that's just for emergency care.

I personally know people who have driven themselves to the hospital during a heart attack because they can't afford an ambulance.

That's the sort of mentality less well off people have in America.

If you prioritize driving yourself to the hospital during a heart attack, putting yourself and everyone on the road in danger, your brain is just as sick as your heart.

 

[AdventureRacing]

My sister work admin in a local hospital (UK) it is packed full with old people essentially waiting to die as the hospices are full, what is essentially an A+E hospital has got high death rates in certain areas because it is being used as a massive final care centre.

They could easily halve the death rate overnight but it would entail dumping a hell of a lot of very vulnerable terminally ill patients on a already over stretched hospice system and wiping your hands of providing care.

I'm in Australia but it's the same here. We constantly have lots of elderly people just waiting on our ward to die because there really isn't anywhere else to go or anyone to look after them.

 

[Htown]

so the first responses in the thread were trying to make America look bad, rather than realizing UK was behind other countries as well?

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

This sounds great an all but America isn't all that better itself.

When you factor in the people who don't have health care and have those outrageous ER bills, you will see why the mortality rate is much less. Some people die in their homes because of it, some people go homeless as well because of a family member that has been sick and wasn't able to get good treatment, taking away all they have. It's more complicated than to say it's lower for one particular reason.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I know the study has turned out to be flawed, but C4 News have uploaded the piece they did if anyone's interested...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzxkwBzo9aE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqZaOEjgrCE

The guy who collected the information is interviewed...

 

[Jonm1010]

no it's not.
I don't know why people still believe this myth.

yes, the USA has more specialists but the treatment is in 99% of the cases the same in other developed countries.

this isn't hollywood. no Dr house and George Clooney

Yep and for every anecdotal piece of evidence of some politician coming to America for healthcare I can give you one of a politician going to another country or a star athlete going to Europe for cutting edge knee surgery or something.

The US does not have a monopoly of healthcare innovation or leading specialists. We have some great ones but its not like our system is the sole reason for this and justifies the status quo as many people tend to use this argument for.

 

[mackattk]

I am sure there are more people in the hospital in the UK than there is in the US. Simple reason is that a lot of americans feel they can't afford insurance nor the hospital bills, so they just refuse to go. I know personally, if I wasn't charge an arm and a leg each time I stepped into a hospital, I would go more often than I do.

 

[twobear]

I, for one, can't wait for this study to be used to prop up arguments that we need further private sector investment meddling in the NHS.

 

[Indrid Cold1]

this study should probably also assess the mortality rates in the rest of the first world before you Americans get all lofty with 'you see that communists?!'

it's possible the brits are just terrible at running a fundamentally sound system.

It's also possible that poor sick people tend to die in hospitals in UK where as poor sick people tend to die under a wet cardboard box next to a dumpster in the US.

Still pretty surprising news for the UK health system, I'd always heard it was good to great.

Just had to add, I am from Liverpool, England.