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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Steelyuhas
Member
Content Roundup: Breaker of Chains
Reviews and Recaps:
AV Club (newbies)
Alan Sepinwall (Hitfix) Review
Andy Greenwald (Grantland) Recap
Rolling Stone Recap
IGN Review
Memles (Cultural Learnings) Recap
TIME Recap
The Guardian Recap
James Hibberd (EW) Recap
Alyssa Rosenberg (Washington Post) Recap
WiC.net Recap (Unsullied)
HBO Content:
HBO Viewers guide of the episode
Inside the Episode
"The Walls of Meereen" GRRM talks talks history of the richest slave city
"No Need for a Horse" Dany's gamble pays off
Scene: Dany's Speech
"Oathkeeper" Preview
Interviews:
Aidan Gillen talks return of Littlefinger
Nikolaj Coster-Waldau talks Jaime's "act of powerlessness"
Director Alex Graves on the controversial scene
Alex Graves goes a little more in depth about the controversial scene
Ratings: Viewers rise to match premiere, 6.6 million
This post will be linked in the OP.
Intheflorsh
Banned
A dragon would roast a T-800.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
A T-800 would run out of ammunition. It also can't shoot in multiple directions so it would get easily crowded and tipped over.
bishopcruz
Member
Copy of a post from the other thread, no book discussion at all.
So to add to the murkiness of the rape/she was totally into it (sigh) issue:
Another quote from Alex Graves explaining that it was supposed to be consensual.
He goes into detail as to why:
Yeah, nope. Graves screwed up BIGTIME. It comes off as rape, D&D even talk about it as such. At least they got the disturbing part of it right, I guess? Good lord, what was he thinking?
So to add to the murkiness of the rape/she was totally into it (sigh) issue:
Another quote from Alex Graves explaining that it was supposed to be consensual.
He goes into detail as to why:
Alex Graves said:
Yeah, nope. Graves screwed up BIGTIME. It comes off as rape, D&D even talk about it as such. At least they got the disturbing part of it right, I guess? Good lord, what was he thinking?
Necromanti
Member
It has probably been discussed to death already, but is there any particular reason he's trying to add an element of...consent to the scene? I mean, even if she gives in eventually, that doesn't stop it from being rape, so why not just be forthright and say it was a rape scene? Was it supposed to imply consent, but it kind of failing to do so? (Does it even matter in the end?)
Sorry if it's kicking a dead horse. Didn't see that interview until now.
EDIT: Looks like it's more relevant now with bishopcruz's post above. Phew.
CrunchyFrog
Member
I started watching from episode 1 I think a few days after the season 4 premiere, so a little under 2 weeks? It's a show that certainly doesn't drag and there's only 12-ish episodes a season.
Having just watched this scene today independent of any and all media/GAF talk, that scene sure looked rape-y as hell to me. Wasn't even aware that scene could've been taken any other way.
Wow, Graves. That ain't right.
Intheflorsh
Banned
That's his cut? She's trying to push Jamie away up to the last second of the scene and keeps saying "not here" and "stop it". A two second shot of her holding the table cloth does not communicate consent. Graves is seriously deluded...
I'm not upset or anything, but I'm curious why my post was deleted? It was a link to an Entertainment Weekly discussion with George RR Martin on that scene. No book spoilers. Just his thoughts on how the scene played out on the show. I didn't quote anything he said, but it wasn't spoiler material anyway (defining spoilers as discussion of anything that is yet to come, which we have not already seen).
I get the rule about not having book comparisons from the OP. However, I'm starting to become confused on this. If we've seen something that happened on the show, is it fair to discuss how the tv producers might have altered that specific scene for the show without discussing any details/spoilers outside that one particular scene? Such a discussion can enrich how we interpret and understand certain aspects of the show, or how to respond to the actions of certain characters without alluding to anything forthcoming from the source material.
Again, not trying to create a debate or anything, but I'm just genuinely confused. A site like EW isn't going to irresponsibly spoil any book contents past whatever has aired thus far. If the rule for the thread is zero book discussion/comparisons period then I understand (and I sort of agree). Thanks.
I get the rule about not having book comparisons from the OP. However, I'm starting to become confused on this. If we've seen something that happened on the show, is it fair to discuss how the tv producers might have altered that specific scene for the show without discussing any details/spoilers outside that one particular scene? Such a discussion can enrich how we interpret and understand certain aspects of the show, or how to respond to the actions of certain characters without alluding to anything forthcoming from the source material.
Again, not trying to create a debate or anything, but I'm just genuinely confused. A site like EW isn't going to irresponsibly spoil any book contents past whatever has aired thus far. If the rule for the thread is zero book discussion/comparisons period then I understand (and I sort of agree). Thanks.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
Some further comment from GRRM
(temporarily removed)
He does compare to the books but there are no future spoilers.
EDIT: Just read the post above, am I allowed to post this here? I think it's important that we get some context from the original author.
(temporarily removed)
He does compare to the books but there are no future spoilers.
EDIT: Just read the post above, am I allowed to post this here? I think it's important that we get some context from the original author.
Cornballer
Member
The focus of that article and GRRM's comments consist of directly comparing the books to the television show, so we're not going to discuss it here. If you'd like to talk about that, please use the other thread.
Necromanti
Member
I'd think that any context from the original author would be no different from going into how something in the show differs from how it plays out in the books, which is a big no-no for this thread.
Yep, zero. That's more what the other thread is for. It sucks finding out if or when the show deviates from the source.
TheContact
Member
Op says no book comparisons. Use google instead. Other thread too but beware spoilers, then don't come back here =|
That I get, but I guess I don't view comparisons as being spoilers by default, if the comparison is to something we've already seen and doesn't contain any allusions to forthcoming events.
People can't wander into the unmarked book spoiler thread if they haven't read all the books. But if it's a slippery enough slope that people don't want to risk spoilers seeping into discussion of things we've already seen, then I obviously understand the reason for the rule. No gripes here.
TheContact
Member
It's not just about spoilers. It's that there's no book discussion here.
Psychoward
Banned
That's why people have volunteered to receive PMs about questions. While this event in particular probably doesn't foreshadow anything, it's still better this way.
Yea, I see the volunteers in the OP, but in this case I didn't have a question (and I wouldn't want to speculate on anything beyond what we've seen in the show for obvious reasons). It was just a short interview, but it did have comparisons for an aired scene, so lesson learned.
Hodor.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
Okay I'll just go by Graves' comments. I am actually glad that he's standing by the scene. He does highlight that there enough going on that makes the sex consensual (in his opinion) if you read every single action that happens on screen. He does highlight the psychological element, and the element of danger and aggression in their relationship. And that works for me. My initial reading of the scene was an awkward, disturbing (but consensual) moment between two damaged, complex characters. Yeah they're fucked up, and how they express their feelings toward each other is just as twisted.
The last thing I would want is for the show to start censoring itself to appease political sensibilities. This show has always featured acts of depravity, inhumanity and ruthlessness, and frequently skirts moral grey areas. It's what makes it interesting.
The last thing I would want is for the show to start censoring itself to appease political sensibilities. This show has always featured acts of depravity, inhumanity and ruthlessness, and frequently skirts moral grey areas. It's what makes it interesting.
Agreed completely. At first I thought he was going to rape her but as the scene went on it was clear to me that this was not rape ... come to GAF and all of you are saying RAPE!!! ... sorry, I didn't get that at all ... they are two tortured people who obviously have extreme sexual behavior ... to me, it wasn't rape and it fits both characters ... could it have been less rapey? I guess so, but I think that would diminish the impact of the scene and the characters ...
yeah same here, I didn't interpret the scene as rape.
Cloud Strife
Member
I think you mean Sean Bean'd.
There's a difference between censoring the show and turning Jaime into a rapist for no good reason. If the director meant it to look consensual then he's a fucking moron.
I thought a similar thing, and even if the execution was failed I buy his explanation. These people are super damaged, and both are in a state of mind where they feel broken, betrayed, angry and unwanted. And all the same, capable of doing terrible things.
People like going "OMG Rape Culture", "How can you think that was consensual", "Jamie is ruined now, he was good before", etc. and being outraged (while not quite as vocal with all the terrible things depicted in this show) but I give the people behind the show more credit than that.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
I got that Cersei's attitude seemed to be "this is not the right time or place" while fighting temptation, but yeah that was awfuly edited. It looked far darker than the director seemingly intended and the audience confusion just goes to show how poorly directed that scene was.
Seems like the scene was intended to start as a possible rape but end in a consensual arrangement. Cersei could have either decided to not further resist in order to not make the situation worse, or she did at some point become interested. I agree that the direction didn't really give a strong enough implication that Cersei gave into temptation, so many audiences assumed that the entire act was against her will.
a Master Ninja
Member
Neither myself or my girlfriend have read the books. I asked her how she interpreted the sex scene between Jaime and Cersei. She replied, "Cersei always decides what happens to Cersei. If she really didn't want that happen it wouldn't have happened."
She embraced 1 or 2 kisses but it's not very clear. I assumed reluctance till he ripped her clothes
The last 2 shots she's pushing his face and gripping the funeral cloth
If I was director, I would think having a hand gripping shot as the final shot would imply this to the audience.
Maybe it will be more clear (to those not googling director interviews) by her behavior on the show next week.
Nameless
Member
I like you. You and I seem to share a lot of opinions on this show. We should be friends.
Jamie Lannister has always been a piece of shit. Just because he showed decency to one character in season three doesn't mean he hasn't always, and won't always be, a loathsome, sister fucking piece of shit. I hope he's next so that Cersei is completely mind-broken. There'd be nothing sweeter than to see her face when everything is taken away from her, just like Cat had to experience. Fuck House Lannister.
And yes, I feel better for having gotten that off my chest.
I still like Tywin.
Speaking of googling, it looks like Joffrey has googly eyes in that shot.
If they were your normal everyday Westeros couple, then yeah, I'd say sure, that was probably rape ... but these are two sick and twisted individuals with dark sexual desires ... I think that affords them some wiggle room here ...
DEAL WITH IT.
Sorry if this was posted already
/thread
Ultimadrago
Member
I laughed at this part of the episode.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
I knew something was up when Jaime was asking if him and Brienne were related!
Sure if I was desperate. Which I am.
Long term dating I mean.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Sex and violence are common facets of real life. If someone balks at it on television or goes "EWW!!" I send them back to the kindergarten class they came from. I have little tolerance for adult sized children. For goodness sakes Maisie Williams watches her own show uncensored
Chie Satonaka
Member
Sorry if this was posted already
Oh this is just too, too good.
Related to this, that exchange between Jamie and Loras was gold. "Neither will you."
So good.
No I wouldn't.
Does she have extreme values due to a strict upbringing or something? Maybe deep rooted sexual issues?
This is strange that an adult (I'm assuming you're over 20) has issues with a society norm such as sex scenes on television and movies. I guess I can see the issue with you watching porn, but even still.
Yeah, I could see taking issue with an extreme porn addiction (spending hundreds or thousands a year on it), but having a problem with watching it occasionally, or seeing incidental sex on a TV show is a pretty shocking character flaw as far as I'm concerned.
Ultimadrago
Member
No.
Well, I mean, she doesn't need to like it, but I wouldn't stand hearing a bypassing comment on it even semi-occasionally when any of the mentioned topics come up.
Um...lots of people don't enjoy watching sex scenes around certain company. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with it.
I'll give you an example. My mother loves Game of Thrones. Whenever I'm over, we'll watch the show. She also watches the show by herself in its entirety. As do I.
She does not however enjoy watching the brothel scenes with me.
Plenty of people shy away from such shows for reasons other than "sexual issues" or values/religion. It's just a personal taste.
My father doesn't like suspenseful, violent shows because he likes lighter, comedic fare.
I'll give you an example. My mother loves Game of Thrones. Whenever I'm over, we'll watch the show. She also watches the show by herself in its entirety. As do I.
She does not however enjoy watching the brothel scenes with me.
Plenty of people shy away from such shows for reasons other than "sexual issues" or values/religion. It's just a personal taste.
My father doesn't like suspenseful, violent shows because he likes lighter, comedic fare.
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