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Question about Muslims

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F

Futureman

Member
CrushDance said:
And saying that all religious scholars who study it come to those extremist views is ridiculous. You just said above that it's open to interpretation, and warrior300 says that the extremists take a different interpretation, and then you say he's wrong.:lol
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I never said all religious scholars come to extremist conclusions. Maybe I worded something vaguely above, but that's pretty much the exact opposite of what I was saying.

And I never said warrior's interpretation is wrong, only that it is an interpretation, not the definite Islamic truth.
 
C

castle007

Banned
Futureman said:
I never said all religious scholars come to extremist conclusions. Maybe I worded something vaguely above, but that's pretty much the exact opposite of what I was saying.

And I never said warrior's interpretation is wrong, only that it is an interpretation, not the definite Islamic truth.
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how can you make that claim when you are not even a muslim???

I can understand if you were following Islam because then I can actually argue with you about how a certain interpretation is wrong, and I can understand you if you were a christian and you were saying that Islam is wrong because muslims don't believe in the trinity.

But you are an athiest and you believe that all religions consist of fairy tales.
 
C

CrushDance

Banned
hadareud said:
tell me when you find the person that said that.
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hadareud said:
it's what religion will do to people.

Any religion.
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I'm talking about you, not the OP. What was the intention of that statement? What were you suggesting that Muslims were? In the context of this thread your statement is suggesting that religion is the reason for this behaviour and nothing else. Which is what I took offense too, since there are MANY example that show that what you said is false. And me saying "dumb fuck" is just a short way to say: "People acting stupidly". In regards to the context of the OP about honor killings, blowing themselves/others up, etc all the things extremists do. You'd have to be pretty off base to think you're above all. That's what I meant.

So now like I asked, what does "It's what religion will do to people" mean?

Futureman said:
I never said all religious scholars come to extremist conclusions. Maybe I worded something vaguely above, but that's pretty much the exact opposite of what I was saying.

And I never said warrior's interpretation is wrong, only that it is an interpretation, not the definite Islamic truth.
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Futureman said:
The reason I mentioned I'm an atheist is that whether you are "correctly" following the Koran or not, it's all make believe to me. You saying it explicitly forbids what they are doing is YOUR interpretation, not their ignorance. You can sit here on GAF and type out that you personally think that many of them have never opened a Koran, but in the real world out there, religious scholars spend decades of their lives studying the Koran and still come to these extremist conclusions.
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.
 
A

Azih

Member
Count Dookkake said:
I saw a couple of threads recently where straight people were answering questions about gays.
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Were the straight people prefacing their comments with "I don't care about human sexuality or gays" ?
 
H

hadareud

The Translator
CrushDance said:
What was the intention of that statement? What were you suggesting that Muslims were? And me saying "dumb fuck" is just a short way to say: "People acting stupidly". In regards to the context of the OP about honor killings, blowing themselves/others up, etc all the things extremists do. You'd have to be pretty off base to think you're above all. That's what I meant.

So now like I asked, what does "It's what religion will do to people" mean?
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I did not say that people need to be religious to be dumb fucks, act stupid, be evil, violent etc.

What I meant was that religion is a breeding ground for ignorance and extremism and everything that results out of that.
 
F

Futureman

Member
CrushDance said:
.
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I never said "all" religious scholars. I was merely stating that a person is certainly capable of studying the Koran their whole life and coming to an extremist interpretation.
 
S

saelz8

Member
hadareud said:
it's what religion will do to people.

Any religion.
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Can religion influence people to give to charity, where they wouldn't without? That is, help their fellow man.

Since religion can have a negative affect, I'm curious if you think it can have a positive affect as well, and to what extent.

If religion gives people irrational motivations to do bad, it can also give people irrational motivations to do good.
 
P

Pterion

Member
saelz8 said:
Can religion influence people to give to charity, where they wouldn't without? That is, help their fellow man.

(Since religion can do that to people)
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Sssshhhh, religion had absolutely no benefit in the history of mankind whatsoever. Keep it quiet.
 
F

Futureman

Member
castle007 said:
how can you make that claim when you are not even a muslim???
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So what if I was a Muslim? I would say "I have the definitive Islamic truth!" and you would say, "No, I have the definitive Islamic truth!" and still others would come and say "You two are both wrong, I have the definitive Islamic truth!"

And then Christians would come in and say "No, everyone here is wrong, I know more about God than you!" and then we could go back through thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years of religion beliefs where everyone would be claiming THEY know God and everyone else is wrong.

LOL RELIGION
 
C

castle007

Banned
Futureman said:
So what if I was a Muslim? I would say "I have the definitive Islamic truth!" and you would say, "No, I have the definitive Islamic truth!" and still others would come and say "You two are both wrong, I have the definitive Islamic truth!"

And then Christians would come in and say "No, everyone here is wrong, I know more about God than you!" and then we could go back through thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years of religion beliefs where everyone would be claiming THEY know God and everyone else is wrong.

LOL RELIGION
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you know, I was about to post a serious reposnse, but then you put the "LOL RELIGION" at the end. that pretty much shows that there is no use in arguing with you, because after any arguement you will probably resort to the same response. "LOL RELIGION" "Fairytales, etc"
 
C

CrushDance

Banned
hadareud said:
I did not say that people need to be religious to be dumb fucks, act stupid, be evil, violent etc.

What I meant was that religion is a breeding ground for ignorance and extremism and everything that results out of that.
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And where do you get this idea from? Extremist Muslims? Once again, religion is not a breeding ground for ignorance, extremism "and everything that results from that". Religion is not some single group, within each one there are many variations and beliefs.

What you're suggesting is that religion is problematic and causes more problems than good. Which cannot be quantified in any way really. I don't even want to get into some "My views are better than yours" match, but there's many instances where I've seen extreme ignorance and random violence from "atheists" and never once have I taken those nut jobs actions as what atheists are.

Look at homosexuality for example, EVERYONE attacks homosexuals. Even the so called atheists. Yes religion can be a cause for someone believing that they have justification for their actions as with the extremist Muslims. But at the same time you see other Muslims reporting and arresting those people and turning them over to the correct authorities.

Most religions in general preach the idea of understanding and acceptance. I only have one life and I'm not about to waste it trying to get people to see my way.
 
F

Futureman

Member
RiZ III said:
Because you know Religion is the only thing people differ on. Not politics, or race, or nationality.. yep only religion.
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Stuff like politics and race can actually be rationally argued about. With religion, you will inevitably hit a wall where both sides have to throw their hands up and just say, "Well, that's my faith!"
 
R

RiZ III

Member
Futureman said:
Stuff like politics and race can actually be rationally argued about. With religion, you will inevitably hit a wall where both sides have to throw their hands up and just say, "Well, that's my faith!"
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How can race be argued?
 
A

Azih

Member
Futureman said:
Stuff like politics and race can actually be rationally argued about. With religion, you will inevitably hit a wall where both sides have to throw their hands up and just say, "Well, that's my faith!"
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No actually. Islam is built on the Quran and the Sunnah and pretty much every argument refers to those sources. You have to have some backup from there.
 
C

castle007

Banned
If it weren't for Judaism and Moses, the jews would have remained in Egypt worshipping pharaohs and idols.

If it weren't for christianity and Jesus's preachings, people would still be believing in the Greek and Roman gods.

Islam and Mohammad's teachings changed the lives of millions of people for the better, and it stopped worshipping of false idols in the Arabian Penninsula.

All of these religions encouraged charity, humbleness, loyalty, dicouraged murder and adultery.

How can anyone claim that religion is a breeding ground for hatred when a person follows its teachings?

I would be more than happy to be best friends with a good christian and a good jew because I know, even though some of the teachings have been changes, the other good qualities about the religion are still there.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
castle007 said:
how can you make that claim when you are not even a muslim???

I can understand if you were following Islam because then I can actually argue with you about how a certain interpretation is wrong, and I can understand you if you were a christian and you were saying that Islam is wrong because muslims don't believe in the trinity.

But you are an athiest and you believe that all religions consist of fairy tales.
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In my view, atheism is far more likely to see variations in Islam as just that, variations, rather than through the dichotomy of "right or wrong interpretations".

If Islam were simply an oral tradition, rather than a specific rule of law with one meaning set down by a deity, than all branches of that faith are equally valid. They are all equally correct, or rather if you take an athiest's perspective, all equally incorrect.

In this view, it becomes impossible to think of a "true Islamic interpretation" from which others could vary.

In this case we are not talking about completely separate sects, but which passages to follow in the Quran/Hadith. If there were certain statements that made it blatantly obvious in which way one should defend Islam, then I suppose even atheist scholars could say "yes, those Muslims over there are DEFINITELY misinterpreting their own religion"... but I don't think it is that obvious! Isn't the whole point of the Mohammad story that even with peace and respect, there is a time to defend ones self? Why would those Muslms who have made this a righteous defense of Islam through mobile action be so wrongheaded? It seems a likely outcome if one has taken this worldview... for many people anway.
 
A

Azih

Member
castle007 said:
If it weren't for Judaism and Moses, the jews would have remained in Egypt worshipping pharaohs and idols.

If it weren't for christianity and Jesus's preachings, people would still be believing in the Greek and Roman gods.

Islam and Mohammad's teachings changed the lives of millions of people for the better, and it stopped worshipping of false idols in the Arabian Penninsula.

All of these religions encouraged charity, humbleness, loyalty, dicouraged murder and adultery.

How can anyone claim that religion is a breeding ground for hatred?
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Crusades, Witch burnings, et cetera.
 
B

besiktas1

Member
On the topic of Extremists, I'll tell you what gets on my fucking nerves is the word "Islamist"

It's where the media has switched the word Terror with Islam. Isn't that a contradiction because doesn't the word Islam translate to peace? Is it a way of subtly conditioning people to think that Islam teaches terror. Well fuck that, if your a terrorist you aren't no muslim, your a fucking animal. No ifs no buts, an ANIMAL, and not no cool animal either, you are something like a shit fly.

rant over. :) sorry
 
C

CrushDance

Banned
castle007 said:
If it weren't for Judaism and Moses, the jews would have remained in Egypt worshipping pharaohs and idols.

If it weren't for christianity and Jesus's preachings, people would still be believing in the Greek and Roman gods.

Islam and Mohammad's teachings changed the lives of millions of people for the better, and it stopped worshipping of false idols in the Arabian Penninsula.

All of these religions encouraged charity, humbleness, loyalty, dicouraged murder and adultery.

How can anyone claim that religion is a breeding ground for hatred?
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Well to be fair, there are some citations which call out gays most notably. But I've always interpreted it in the sense of premarital sex. The line about a man laying down with a woman or a man/man, woman/woman. It does call out homosexuality though, that' for sure.

Anyway, for the average atheist there really is no difference between Yahweh and Zeus, so your first points are kind of null and void. Islam did bring a lot of rights to women though, as did Christianity. Girls were usually just tossed out as garbage at birth until those and other religions came around

China, a very secular state was getting rid of girls for the longest time. And now they have a shortage of women. 8Shrug*
 
A

Azih

Member
BocoDragon said:
In this case we are not talking about completely separate sects, but which passages to follow in the Quran/Hadith.
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The Quran is the primary source and you can't pick and choose which passages to follow from there. It's pretty much an a full package. A lot of debate comes from which Hadith are valid or not sure, but if a Hadith contradicts the Quran the Hadith is invalid. The "There is no compulsion in religion" verse isn't arguable.
 
A

Azih

Member
castle007 said:
sorry, I wasn't more specific, see my edit. I swear I didn't see your post until after the edit.
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Cool but even after the edit, a lot of stuff has been done in the *name* of religion. I mean the Bible does have verses like "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live"
 
K

Kapsama

Member
castle007 said:
I don't find anything hilarious in what I posted.

And how are the examples that I posted not tolerance???
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Nevermind Chrono, he's just bitter that he had to be born in Saudi Arabia. Now he has a vendetta against Islam.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Azih said:
The Quran is the primary source and you can't pick and choose which passages to follow from there. It's pretty much an a full package. A lot of debate comes from which Hadith are valid or not sure, but if a Hadith contradicts the Quran the Hadith is invalid. The "There is no compulsion in religion" verse isn't arguable.
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Right but this strife needn't be caused by a desire to convert or compel others to submit to Islam... IMO it comes from the common desire to defend one's belief structure/identity, and it is actually backed up theologically by the prophet's story. He had to fight to defend himself, and when Muslims are always advising each other to look to the lives of early Islam for inspiration, there is plenty of righteous struggle to be found.

This "no compulsion in religion" = "no angry protests" is pretty, you know... interpretive.

Azih said:
Cool but even after the edit, a lot of stuff has been done in the *name* of religion. I mean the Bible does have verses like "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live"
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Yea its pretty ugly isn't it?
 
K

Kaeru

Banned
CrushDance said:
Well to be fair, there are some citations which call out gays most notably. But I've always interpreted it in the sense of premarital sex. The line about a man laying down with a woman or a man/man, woman/woman. It does call out homosexuality though, that' for sure.

Anyway, for the average atheist there really is no difference between Yahweh and Zeus, so your first points are kind of null and void. Islam did bring a lot of rights to women though, as did Christianity. Girls were usually just tossed out as garbage at birth until those and other religions came around

China, a very secular state was getting rid of girls for the longest time. And now they have a shortage of women. 8Shrug*
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Facts please
 
A

Azih

Member
Kaeru said:
Facts please
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Well from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Islam

Early reforms under Islam

Main article: Early reforms under Islam

During the early reforms under Islam in the 7th century, reforms in women's rights affected marriage, divorce and inheritance.[8] Women were not accorded with such legal status in other cultures, including the West, until centuries later.[9] The Oxford Dictionary of Islam states that the general improvement of the status of Arab women included prohibition of female infanticide and recognizing women's full personhood.[10] "The dowry, previously regarded as a bride-price paid to the father, became a nuptial gift retained by the wife as part of her personal property."[11][8] Under Islamic law, marriage was no longer viewed as a "status" but rather as a "contract", in which the woman's consent was imperative.[11][8][10] "Women were given inheritance rights in a patriarchal society that had previously restricted inheritance to male relatives."[8] Annemarie Schimmel states that "compared to the pre-Islamic position of women, Islamic legislation meant an enormous progress; the woman has the right, at least according to the letter of the law, to administer the wealth she has brought into the family or has earned by her own work."[12] William Montgomery Watt states that Muhammad, in the historical context of his time, can be seen as a figure who testified on behalf of women’s rights and improved things considerably. Watt explains: "At the time Islam began, the conditions of women were terrible - they had no right to own property, were supposed to be the property of the man, and if the man died everything went to his sons." Muhammad, however, by "instituting rights of property ownership, inheritance, education and divorce, gave women certain basic safeguards."[13] Haddad and Esposito state that "Muhammad granted women rights and privileges in the sphere of family life, marriage, education, and economic endeavors, rights that help improve women's status in society."[14]
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C

CrushDance

Banned
Kaeru said:
Facts please
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It was discussed in our world religions class. And someone already posted a snippet about it above me anyway. The citation in the Koran about it is something along the lines of: "And of your daughter, if she has done nothing wrong then why take her life" or something like that. In regards to the throwing away of baby girls.

Europe did the same thing, most societies back then didn't value girls.
 
A

Azih

Member
BocoDragon said:
He had to fight to defend himself, and when Muslims are always advising each other to look to the lives of early Islam for inspiration, there is plenty of righteous struggle to be found.
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And none of that righteous struggle included beheading people who slandered the Prophet. Which is kind of what struck me about the pics in the OP.

This "no compulsion in religion" = "no angry protests" is pretty, you know... interpretive.
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Oh that was just an example of how you can't really debate which verses from the Quran you can pick and choose. Didn't have all that much to do with the OP. In any case I don't have a problem with angry protests, I do have a problem with people claiming that "Massacring those who slander Islam" is any way backed up by Islamic texts. Certainly not in the Quran and there are a lot of examples in the Sunnah about how the Prophet reacted to people slandering and/or insulting him. Castle mentioned those earlier
 
A

Azih

Member
CrushDance said:
It was discussed in our world religions class. And someone already posted a snippet about it above me anyway. The citation in the Koran about it is something along the lines of: "And of your daughter, if she has done nothing wrong then why take her life" or something like that. In regards to the throwing away of baby girls.

Europe did the same thing, most societies back then didn't value girls.
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Hell some segments of India and China still do that kind of shit.
 
M

msv

Member
Azih said:
No actually. Islam is built on the Quran and the Sunnah and pretty much every argument refers to those sources. You have to have some backup from there.
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You don't seem to understand. That is what you call Islam, there's an insane amount of people that don't even care about those arguments and call themselves muslim nonetheless. You might say they aren't muslim, or aren't following islamic standards, but to them they're muslims and that's all that matters.

Besides, thinking you can take a text and interpret it completely literally is pretty misguided. There's always going to be an infinite amount of interpretations no matter how hard you try.
 
S

Slavik81

Member
CrushDance said:
so only religion will make people do dumb shit?
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Certainly not. Nationalism is just as bad. There was no religion involved in the French Revolution, and none in Maoism, Nazism or Stalinism either.

As are ethnic divisions are also terrible (and often tied to religion and nationalism). Just look at the god-awful ethnic mess that was Yugoslavia after the collapse of the nationalist state.

Not that any of those things are inherently bad. Just that they just evoke an 'us-and-them' mentality and often involve some sort of absolute authority. The problem with condemning them is that it's not clear that they're the actual problem. You see the same sorts of behavior with things as stupid and trivial as sports teams. It's probably endemic to the human mind.
 
A

AmMortal

Banned
msv said:
You don't seem to understand. That is what you call Islam, there's an insane amount of people that don't even care about those arguments and call themselves muslim nonetheless. You might say they aren't muslim, or aren't following islamic standards, but to them they're muslims and that's all that matters.

Besides, thinking you can take a text and interpret it completely literally is pretty misguided. There's always going to be an infinite amount of interpretations no matter how hard you try.
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Well, I think that we need to analyze and refer to the Qur'an in the early Qur'aishi Arabic itself. This would allow for a significanlty less amount of misinterpritations. It will also diminish the amount of " Different Interpretations" of Islam.

We Muslims do not consider anything the Qur'an if it isn't in the original transcript.
 
A

AmMortal

Banned
Futureman said:
I don't call it ignorance, I call it difference in interpretation. If they bothered to read the Quran? Yea, these people are killing each and other killing themselves over a book they didn't read.
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You see, the people that incite these ideologies take the Qur'an out of context. They read halve parts of verses and skip some, to fit their political objectives. As a Muslim you have to read and believe in every single verse.
 
F

Falch

Member
CrushDance said:
I'll make sure to note that alongside all the atrocities committed by those that don't identify with any religion. Columbine school shooting was done by atheists, Vtech...Abu Grhaib had atheist soldiers torturing detainees, etc.
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This is a worthless argument. None of the above crimes were commited in the name of atheism. When a young Palestinian guy blows himself up in a crowded street, he did so because of his beliefs, his faith. Whether or not other Muslims consider this justified (a lot of Muslims in the Middle East do) in the name of Islam is irrevelant for me as an atheist. The same goes for honor killings which are done in the name of Allah. Different interpretations of the Quran are all equally silly to me.
 
Z

Zapages

Member
Falch said:
This is a worthless argument. None of the above crimes were commited in the name of atheism. When a young Palestinian guy blows himself up in a crowded street, he did so because of his beliefs, his faith. Whether or not other Muslims consider this justified (a lot of Muslims in the Middle East do) in the name of Islam is irrevelant for me as an atheist. The same goes for honor killings which are done in the name of Allah. Different interpretations of the Quran are all equally silly to me.
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They justify it by stating that it is their only weapon to fight against a larger enemy...
 
F

FightyF

Banned
Futureman said:
Stuff like politics and race can actually be rationally argued about. With religion, you will inevitably hit a wall where both sides have to throw their hands up and just say, "Well, that's my faith!"
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You're going to have to study Islam a bit further before you bother posting any further.

You said this:

Futureman said:
I don't call it ignorance, I call it difference in interpretation. If they bothered to read the Quran? Yea, these people are killing each and other killing themselves over a book they didn't read.
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When people have already replied...a unanimously agreed upon scripture among 99.99% of Muslims is clear on the topic.

If there was a split on the Shia/Sunni perspective on the validity of the Quran, you may have a point, but both groups agree that the Quran is the infalliable Word of God.

And so again, if you plan to disagree and argue with people who know this very basic fact, you're just making yourself look silly here.

Slavik81 said:
Certainly not. Nationalism is just as bad. There was no religion involved in the French Revolution, and none in Maoism, Nazism or Stalinism either.

As are ethnic divisions are also terrible (and often tied to religion and nationalism). Just look at the god-awful ethnic mess that was Yugoslavia after the collapse of the nationalist state.

Not that any of those things are inherently bad. Just that they just evoke an 'us-and-them' mentality and often involve some sort of absolute authority. The problem with condemning them is that it's not clear that they're the actual problem. You see the same sorts of behavior with things as stupid and trivial as sports teams. It's probably endemic to the human mind.
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And if you study organizations like Al Qaeda, it's what they thrive on. It's not enough to label the US as say, a capitalist country, or a democracy. Osama bin Laden has attempted to point out a religious divide, by claiming that the US is on a "crusade" and they consist of "Christian and Jews".

Religion, like many other things, can be used as a tool to identify oneself, and because of that it can be used to create a "them versus us" scenario, which can cause conflicts.

And so when religion becomes a political tool, those blaming religion are blind to the reality that they should be blaming those who simply want to cause divide to begin with.

Falch said:
This is a worthless argument. None of the above crimes were commited in the name of atheism. When a young Palestinian guy blows himself up in a crowded street, he did so because of his beliefs, his faith.
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No, he does it for his people. Look and study the tapes of suicide bombers before they go on their "mission", they are consistent in this regard. They claim that they are fighting for the people.

Whether or not other Muslims consider this justified (a lot of Muslims in the Middle East do) in the name of Islam is irrevelant for me as an atheist. The same goes for honor killings which are done in the name of Allah. Different interpretations of the Quran are all equally silly to me.
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It's called "honour killings" because they do it for the "honour" of the family. There is no rule or law in Islam that tells them to do what they do.

Your post reeked of ignorance (maybe you simply just haven't done any research) in both matters, I advise you to read up more on the issue.
 
A

AmMortal

Banned
Falch said:
This is a worthless argument. None of the above crimes were commited in the name of atheism. When a young Palestinian guy blows himself up in a crowded street, he did so because of his beliefs, his faith. Whether or not other Muslims consider this justified (a lot of Muslims in the Middle East do) in the name of Islam is irrevelant for me as an atheist. The same goes for honor killings which are done in the name of Allah. Different interpretations of the Quran are all equally silly to me.
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Wrong, whether you see it or not they were commited with atheistic mindset.

The school shooting wouldn't have happened if they believed that, high school isn't the most important thing in the world. If someone doesn't believe in an hereafter, they feel like they won't be accounted for what they did. They believe that we are all simply evolved animals and don't have any feelings or worth. Say what you will but what happened in Abu Ghraib was far more humiliating then any suicide bomb.
 
F

Falch

Member
Zapages said:
They justify it by stating that it is their only weapon to fight against a larger enemy...
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Somehow I don't think killing innocent civilians is going to help their cause.

FightyF said:
No, he does it for his people. Look and study the tapes of suicide bombers before they go on their "mission", they are consistent in this regard. They claim that they are fighting for the people.
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Yeah, I'm sure the whole 'there will be 72 virgins waiting for you in Heaven, and you'll see all of your friends and family in due time' doesn't play a in their decision to become a suicide bomber...

Their faith facilitates their suicide bombing.

AmMortal said:
Wrong, whether you see it or not they were commited with atheistic mindset.

The school shooting wouldn't have happened if they believed that, high school isn't the most important thing in the world. If someone doesn't believe in an hereafter, they feel like they won't be accounted for what they did. They believe that we are all simply evolved animals and don't have any feelings or worth. Say what you will but what happened in Abu Ghraib was far more humiliating then any suicide bomb.
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So basically what you're saying is that atheists don't have any moral values. That's absolutely disgusting.
 
A

AmMortal

Banned
Falch said:
Somehow I don't think killing innocent civilians is going to help their cause.



So basically what you're saying is that atheists don't have any moral values. That's absolutely disgusting.
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Way to put words in my mouth.
 
A

AmMortal

Banned
Falch said:
Yeah, I'm sure the whole 'there will be 72 virgins waiting for you in Heaven, and you'll see all of your friends and family in due time' doesn't play a in their decision to become a suicide bomber...

Their faith facilitates their suicide bombing.
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Committing Suicide is a Major Sin:

Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 445:

Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, “A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him.”

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 73:

Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak: ”And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection.

——————————————————————————–

There are many more Hadiths condemning suicide but I would also like to reference the Qur’an. Amongst the many verses against suicide here is one that makes it very clear that the taking of one’s life is strongly prohibited and that there is no reward for anyone who does that.

Quote:

——————————————————————————–

"But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily God hath been to you Most Merciful!

If any do that in rancour and injustice,- soon shall We cast them into the Fire: And easy it is for God."

Qur’an 4:29 - 4:30


Falch said:
That's the only logical conclusion I can draw from you're previous post. Feel free to elaborate though.
Click to expand...

I was saying that atheism played a factor in those crimes, not that atheists don't have any morals. That's just ridiculous.
 
Coolio McAwesome

Coolio McAwesome

Member
While there are most certainly passages in the Qur'an that justify killing, it should be noted that there are also many passages in the Judeo-Christian Bible that justify killing in gods name.

Judeo-Christian teachings justify the killing of your children for insubordinance.
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father or his mother even when they punish him his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.' All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

Judeo-Christian teachings justify the killing of your homosexuals.
"If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death. Their blood is on their own heads." (Leviticus 20:13)

Judeo-Christian teachings justify the killing of rape victims.
"If, while in a town, a man happens to meet a woman who is engaged to be married and he has sex with her, take them both to the gate of the town and stone them to death: the girl, for not having cried for help in the town; the man, for having violated another man's wife. You must banish this evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

Judeo-Christian teachings justify the killing of prisoners of war.
"When you go to war against your enemies and you take prisoners put the entire male population to death." (Deuteronomy 21:10)

Judeo-Christian teachings justify the killing of anyone who tries to introduce you to other religious beliefs.
"If your brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife tries to secretly entice you, telling you to go and worship other gods, gods of people living near you, or far from you, or anywhere on earth, do not listen to him. You must kill them. Show them no pity. And your hand must strike the first blow." (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)

Judeo-Christian justify the killing and complete destruction of any community that worships other gods.
"If you hear that in one of the towns, there are men who are telling people to go and worship other gods, it is your duty to look into the matter and examine it. If it is proved and confirmed, you must put the inhabitants of that town to the sword. You must lay the town under the curse of destruction, the town and everything in it. You must pile up all its loot in the public square and burn the town and all its loot. That town is to be a ruin for all time, and never rebuilt." (Deuteronomy 13:13-16)

And, for the record, Jesus made it perfectly clear that his teachings in no way rendered Moses' Laws obsolete.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of Moses or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. In truth I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest stroke of a letter will pass away from The Law. So anyone who breaks the least of these commandments or teaches others to do so will be called 'least' in the kingdom of heaven. But whoevever practices these commandments will be called 'great' in the kingdom of heaven. I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses the experts in The Law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20)
 
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