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Florida gay marriage ban unconstitutional. Genderless dystopia ahead.

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ivysaur12

Banned
I'm honestly not certain how I feel about the legal status of gay marriage; neither opposed legally nor in support. Above all, I'm just bothered by overblown statements that we are reversing a long history of trampling on a basic human right, when that kind of reading of marriage was never comprehensible until recent social shifts in our understanding of individuals and of social obligation, which really are the result of late capitalism and a consumerist logic that one freely chooses every aspect of one's life, and this is not fundamentally progressive. I was a social marxist throughout college, by the way (in the streets for protests, and helped organize things like Food Not Bombs in a couple of cities), so I'm very concerned about communal values and problems with our subjectivity under late capitalism. I don't fit under either side of the political spectrum now.

I've often told conservatives that the term marriage already now means something (an easily dissolved contract of validating romantic involvement and combination of assets) which cannot exclude homosexual unions. Nor have I ever opposed extending full legal rights to gay couples under any equivalent civic union, but I have always been concerned first and foremost with the fact that marriage as a kind of higher good has been greatly degraded on many fronts, and I do indeed feel that the self-centered reading we now have of sexuality and parenthood is in conflict with my religious beliefs and other morals.

The idea that gay marriage is somehow a selfish or self-centered endeavor is, frankly, offensive. Gay couples, just like straight couples, wish to build families and use the protection that marriage brings for those families. When you say:

There is a substantive difference, however, and it cannot be completely avoided. There will always be a third party whose biological parenthood is erased, either by surrogation or donation. There's at least a conversation to be had about how we might treat the act of biological parenthood as different in kind, and how both options might be protected yet still regarded by very different rules.

That diminishes the importance of adoptive parents. We don't called the parents of adoptive children that they're their "civil parents" that these are not "real" marriages. We can use marriage a "carrot" to create stable families. That's not its own role. But that also ignores the fact that gay couples are raising children, and their children are just as well-adjusted as their straight peers.
 

mavs

Member
But now you're still not saying it's a human right; you're simply saying that any civil structure which differentiates in any fashion based on the sex of participants constitutes a second-level violation of a human right to equality. That's not fully congruent with the statements of marriage being a human right, and is more a matter of saying that you interpret the general right of equality to demand that gender not be involved in marriage laws. It's really on a very different civic level of argument about laws at that point, and calling it a "basic human right" is ideologically dishonest and misleading.

Except the Supreme Court recognized marriage as a fundamental right before they recognized equality as a human right in any sense we could comprehend today. So you're contesting an issue that was settled with little opposition before today's issues were even conceived.
 

Settin

Member
No, you are not mandated by law to have children if you are married.

You don't even need to have sex to have children, so the tax benefits for having children do not violate first amendment either.

Benefits on Taxes are not zero sum

Yes, but it gives an incentive for what should be a religious ceremony which violates the first amendment.
 

besada

Banned
Yes, but it gives an incentive for what should be a religious ceremony which violates the first amendment.
Marriage in the U.S. is not a religious ceremony, so that's not really a problem. One is not required, in any way, to be religious or have a religious ceremony to be married.
 

hachi

Banned
For fuck's sake . . . will this make you happy?


Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

You quoted something that defines the family as the "natural" group unit of society and that clearly aligns marriage with "founding a family" in its opening statement. Procreation and natural families are indeed a human right. But binding any two people together romantically in a particular civic institution is not, and that is why it has continuously been limited in many ways, for instance the ubiquitous denial of marriages between close relatives since those have been found to be harmful to production of children.

If you look for it as a pre-existing human right rather than a legal institution, it will always be stated in natural, biological terms, because that's where the human part comes into the production of families. On the other hand, the ability to contactually gather a family unit out of other resources in a way that is not driven by biology, and that instead floats atop a set of contracts for its existence, is a kind of right that exists under certain constraints and only when its promotion is in the best interest of the larger social group.
 

commedieu

Banned
Ok, then have the church of civil marriage. It's your right. Marriage should not be supported one way or the other by the government.

Well, until you propose legislation to dismantle all marriage and separate it from the government, let other tax paying citizens share in equal rights as per government benefits and recognition. Right?





Looking forward to your campaign.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Ok, then have the church of civil marriage. It's your right. Marriage should not be supported one way or the other by the government.

Why not. You have not articulated one clear argument to your point.

Marriage is a legal contracts that streamlines family contracts -- it serves a valid purpose. Divorcing marriage, so to speak, from the government will 1) never happen. 2) is a weird hill for Libertarians to die on. 3) Wouldn't serve any purpose besides making family law and contracts that more complicated.
 

Settin

Member
Marriage in the U.S. is not a religious ceremony, so that's not really a problem. One is not required, in any way, to be religious or have a religious ceremony to be married.

Sure, but I'm saying that's the problem. Remove any power the idea of marriage has in a legal sense and back it out to a purely religious ceremony. Marriage should not hold any power legally.
 

Settin

Member
Well, until you propose legislation to dismantle all marriage and separate it from the government, let other tax paying citizens share in equal rights as per government benefits and recognition. Right?





Looking forward to your campaign.

I imagine you're being sarcastic, but yes. As long as marriage exists as it is then it is a right for any citizen. I'm arguing that it should not be so entangled in the government.
 

Settin

Member
Why not. You have not articulated one clear argument to your point.

Marriage is a legal contracts that streamlines family contracts -- it serves a valid purpose. Divorcing marriage, so to speak, from the government will 1) never happen. 2) is a weird hill for Libertarians to die on. 3) Wouldn't serve any purpose besides making family law and contracts that more complicated.

Oh yes, it will never happen. It's all too entwined in our culture. I'm arguing for an ideal situation. Your points are perfectly valid in the system as it is.
 
Sure, but I'm saying that's the problem. Remove any power the idea of marriage has in a legal sense and back it out to a purely religious ceremony. Marriage should not hold any power legally.

So you are saying people who aren't religious can't get married?
 

besada

Banned
Sure, but I'm saying that's the problem. Remove any power the idea of marriage has in a legal sense and back it out to a purely religious ceremony. Marriage should not hold any power legally.
Except it's not a problem. You keep insisting it is based on a poor understanding of history and the law. Marriage exists in the U.S. As a civil institution. You're welcome to also add a religious ceremony, but whether you do has no bearing on the validity of your marriage.
 

Gotchaye

Member
It is now, I'm arguing that it's dumb that it is.

I don't have a problem with this position, per se, but obviously if you go out today and try to prevent gay marriages from being legally recognized, what you're really doing is supporting a discriminatory system of recognizing only some civil marriages. It doesn't really matter if you're also technically opposed to civil marriage for straight people, or even if you try to get people to sign petitions getting rid of all civil marriage; you know damn well that you have no chance of succeeding at that anytime soon. You'd still be a functional bigot.

Basically, I think it's important to have our priorities straight. Clearly it's better to have civil marriage for everyone rather than a discriminatory system of civil marriage, even if the best system would have no civil marriage. It's fine to talk about how you'd like to get rid of all civil marriage, but it's important to be clear that that's not a reason to deny gay people marriage rights right now, given that civil marriage for straight people is not at all controversial in society at large.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
You quoted something that defines the family as the "natural" group unit of society and that clearly aligns marriage with "founding a family" in its opening statement. Procreation and natural families are indeed a human right. But binding any two people together romantically in a particular civic institution is not, and that is why it has continuously been limited in many ways, for instance the ubiquitous denial of marriages between close relatives since those have been found to be harmful to production of children.

If you look for it as a pre-existing human right rather than a legal institution, it will always be stated in natural, biological terms, because that's where the human part comes into the production of families. On the other hand, the ability to contactually gather a family unit out of other resources in a way that is not driven by biology, and that instead floats atop a set of contracts for its existence, is a kind of right that exists under certain constraints and only when its promotion is in the best interest of the larger social group.

So what should happen to gay couples who want to get married and want to have children?
 

Andrew J.

Member
You quoted something that defines the family as the "natural" group unit of society and that clearly aligns marriage with "founding a family" in its opening statement. Procreation and natural families are indeed a human right.

Reading "natural" to mean "blood-related" in this context is profoundly ahistorical. Fictive kinships have, in many times and places, been more important to family units than biological relationship.
 
You quoted something that defines the family as the "natural" group unit of society and that clearly aligns marriage with "founding a family" in its opening statement. Procreation and natural families are indeed a human right. But binding any two people together romantically in a particular civic institution is not, and that is why it has continuously been limited in many ways, for instance the ubiquitous denial of marriages between close relatives since those have been found to be harmful to production of children.

If you look for it as a pre-existing human right rather than a legal institution, it will always be stated in natural, biological terms, because that's where the human part comes into the production of families. On the other hand, the ability to contactually gather a family unit out of other resources in a way that is not driven by biology, and that instead floats atop a set of contracts for its existence, is a kind of right that exists under certain constraints and only when its promotion is in the best interest of the larger social group.

"have the right to marry and to found a family"


"AND" . . . those are two separate things. There is no mandate to start a family.

English_b1e9c1_2989491.jpg
 

Settin

Member
I don't have a problem with this position, per se, but obviously if you go out today and try to prevent gay marriages from being legally recognized, what you're really doing is supporting a discriminatory system of recognizing only some civil marriages. It doesn't really matter if you're also technically opposed to civil marriage for straight people, or even if you try to get people to sign petitions getting rid of all civil marriage; you know damn well that you have no chance of succeeding at that anytime soon. You'd still be a functional bigot.

Basically, I think it's important to have our priorities straight. Clearly it's better to have civil marriage for everyone rather than a discriminatory system of civil marriage, even if the best system would have no civil marriage. It's fine to talk about how you'd like to get rid of all civil marriage, but it's important to be clear that that's not a reason to deny gay people marriage rights right now, given that civil marriage for straight people is not at all controversial in society at large.
Oh, yes. I'm 100% for removing any bans on marriage discrimination as it stands. We've attached so many things to marriage that it is insane to not allow those rights to everyone.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
No, I'm saying any individual religious organization can recognize whoever it wants as married. It's simple first amendment once you untangle the government's intervention into the issue.

Why, though? In practice, it would only complicate family law and make couples go through even more arduous contract-drafting processes without the shorthand of civil marriage.
 

Settin

Member
Why, though? In practice, it would only complicate family law and make couples go through even more arduous contract-drafting processes without the shorthand of civil marriage.

I'm saying family law should have no consideration on marriage. It should be a ceremony determined by individual organizations. This would remove any martial considerations in partnership contracts. Marriage should not play into child custody, alimony, etc.
 
I've often told conservatives that the term marriage already now means something (an easily dissolved contract of validating romantic involvement and combination of assets) which cannot exclude homosexual unions. Nor have I ever opposed extending full legal rights to gay couples under any equivalent civic union, but I have always been concerned first and foremost with the fact that marriage as a kind of higher good has been greatly degraded on many fronts, and I do indeed feel that the self-centered reading we now have of sexuality and parenthood is in conflict with my religious beliefs and other morals.
So you don't oppose civil unions, which are marriages in construct but not in name, despite sort of opposing gay marriage because you don't believe it fits that construct? It sounds like your issue is with a label, in which case, arguing about what it is is entirely different from what it's called.

Also, as for your last sentence, let's just for the sake of argument say that's a "yes" to opposing it (sort of) on religious grounds.

Ultimately that makes it incredibly difficult to believe any semantic or legal argument is not founded squarely in religious objections, as it is almost impossible for me to recall arguments that did not ultimately come from or were propelled by same.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
I'm saying family law should have no consideration on marriage. It should be a ceremony determined by individual organizations. This would remove any martial considerations in partnership contracts. Marriage should not play into child custody, alimony, etc.

You'd be creating a complete nightmare and adding dozens of hours and thousands of dollars in needlessly complicating a system that already works.
 

Settin

Member
You'd be creating a complete nightmare and adding dozens of hours and thousands of dollars in needlessly complicating a system that already works.

Yep. This idea would spiral the current system into chaos. I'm needlessly arguing for what should have been.
No sarcasm, I'm super bitter
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Every time I hear an argument that devalues adoption, I become less likely to want biological children and more likely to want to adopt. The arguments that adoption is somehow a lesser arrangement than childbirth just seem so hateful on a surface level. Hateful in the way the arguments devalue children who are adopted, hateful in the way the arguments devalue parents who do it out of love, hateful in the way that they punish people who can't have children biologically. And to no end--adoption still exists and will exist and everyone agrees that without it kids would be stuck in even worse situations--so the argument that says adoption is worth less does nothing excepts hurt people. It offers no benefit, it doesn't strengthen childbirth or defend it from attack. It's just hurtful.

I'm saying family law should have no consideration on marriage. It should be a ceremony determined by individual organizations. This would remove any martial considerations in partnership contracts. Marriage should not play into child custody, alimony, etc.

Are you married, divorced, or single?
 

Settin

Member
Every time I hear an argument that devalues adoption, I become less likely to want biological children and more likely to want to adopt. The arguments that adoption is somehow a lesser arrangement than childbirth just seem so hateful on a surface level. Hateful in the way the arguments devalue children who are adopted, hateful in the way the arguments devalue parents who do it out of love, hateful in the way that they punish people who can't have children biologically. And to no end--adoption still exists and will exist and everyone agrees that without it kids would be stuck in even worse situations--so the argument that says adoption is worth less does nothing excepts hurt people. It offers no benefit, it doesn't strengthen childbirth or defend it from attack. It's just hurtful.

I agree 100%. I lean conservative, but I only see homosexual couples as a positive for the children in need of adoption.
 

Settin

Member
That organization is called the government, and the same is true for same sex couples. I got married in a court house, not a church.

Great. If you want to be married by the government then that's your right. I take issue with the government applying special situations to people who are married in any fashion.
 

hachi

Banned
Also, as for your last sentence, let's just for the sake of argument say that's a "yes" to opposing it (sort of) on religious grounds.

Ultimately that makes it incredibly difficult to believe any semantic or legal argument is not founded squarely in religious objections, as it is almost impossible for me to recall arguments that did not ultimately come from or were propelled by same.

I think I've been relatively clear that I'm arguing (1) on the civic front, that marriage is not a bare human right but is instead a specific institution promoting particular social ends that we ascribe higher value, (2) that, due to my beliefs that are partly religious, those social ends should be ones of elevating lifelong biological parenthood in a commitment that is not at all reducible to romantic interest or personal fulfillment. The former civic arguments are mainly taking issue with a reductive reading of marriage, and I separate the latter moral arguments.

Also it's false to say that a moral orientation given by a religious belief makes you somehow biased, while ignoring that any beliefs in what equality should mean or how to build an ideal society are equally biased. There is no neutral starting point; your version of what constitutes human freedom is likely a very particular one derived from a kind of recent market capitalism that promotes self-fulfillment as the highest ideal over duty to family or anything else.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
I'm saying family law should have no consideration on marriage. It should be a ceremony determined by individual organizations. This would remove any martial considerations in partnership contracts. Marriage should not play into child custody, alimony, etc.

Uh.

Wouldn't you also be against the term "family law" since you don't want marriage to be a legal status? Why should family have a legal status if marriage shouldn't? They go hand in hand.

There is a responsibility attached in creating a child. That is called family law. I should not have an equivalent responsibility for a child I did not father as the actual parents.

Marriage and family are important to be recognized legally since there are things like being a parent and knowing next of kin etc etc that needs to happen
 

Settin

Member
Uh.

Wouldn't you also be against the term "family law" since you don't want marriage to be a legal status? Why should family have a legal status if marriage shouldn't? They go hand in hand.

There is a responsibility attached in creating a child. That is called family law. I should not have an equivalent responsibility for a child I did not father as the actual parents.

Marriage and family are important to be recognized legally since there are things like being a parent and knowing next of kin etc etc that needs to happen

Marriage should not be a legal status, but parenthood should be. Once a child is involved the whole dynamic changes. Adoption is a legal status as well.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
Marriage should not be a legal status, but parenthood should be. Once a child is involved the whole dynamic changes. Adoption is a legal status as well.

That almost seems like an arbitrary distinction to make. Why should the government be involved in parenthood but not marriage?
 
I mean I get what you are saying hachi, at least I think I do. You see that gay marriage is being accepted because how we view marriage has shifted away from encouraging an optimum arrangement for child rearing and to a "our love gets recognized and so we get legal benefits". Sadly, the symptoms of this change also include a staggeringly high divorce rate and an increasing number of single parents. Not very ideal. The solution of course would be to go back to the "marriage is for providing a stable environment for families and child rearing" definition. Which of course would mean making getting married a bit harder than going to Vegas, and make divorce a bit more difficult. Oh and for some reason gay marriage would be out of the question.

But nothing about accepting gay marriage makes it incompatible with the old (and in your mind, superior) view that marriage is all about promoting stable two-parent households for optimal child rearing. Yes, gay people can't biologically produce children without a surrogate. But I'm not sure why unborn children are the only thing that concerns you, and not any of the many children that need to be adopted and would surely be more likely to be adopted by gay couples who were legally married.

(2) that, due to my beliefs that are partly religious, those social ends should be ones of elevating lifelong biological parenthood in a commitment that is not at all reducible to romantic interest or personal fulfillment. The former civic arguments are mainly taking issue with a reductive reading of marriage, and I separate the latter moral arguments.

Can you explain why you only value biological parenthood? That's what I don't get. Why are you so fixated on biological parenthood? Why is a move that would provide more stable homes for surrogate and adopted children not valued by you?
 

Settin

Member
That almost seems like an arbitrary distinction to make. Why should the government be involved in parenthood but not marriage?

Having children or not is not arbitrary. Defining the relationship between two consenting adults is dumb, involving a child is different.
 

Mumei

Member
I'm feeling exceptionally lazy today and haven't the least patience for arguing about this, but I'd like to point out that almost every single one of the objections being raised was covered during Perry v. Schwarzenegger (now Hollingsworth v. Perry) at the circuit court during expert testimony. You should read the direct and cross-examinations of Professor Cott, in particular, as her testimony focuses on the history of marriage as a public and private institution.

Q. Professor Cott, I have displayed on the screen one of
Mr. Cooper's statements yesterday about the purpose of
marriage. And I will read it for the record. Mr. Cooper said
that:

"The purpose of the institution of marriage,
the central purpose, is to promote
procreation and to channel naturally
procreative sexual activity between men and
women into stable and enduring unions ... it
is the central and we would submit defining
purpose of marriage."

In your work as a historian, have you examined the
purposes of marriage in the United States?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you give me your views, as an expert in the history
of marriage in the United States, as to that statement by
Mr. Cooper in his opening statement.

A. I could.

Q. Would you do that for me.

A. Let me begin by saying, when I'm speaking of the purposes
I mean from the point of view of the state that sets up and
defines the terms of marriage.

And as I look at the history of the institution in
our country, I would certainly agree that this is one of the
purposes. But it is by no means the central or the defining
purpose of marriage.

In fact, picking this out rather -- when I heard it
yesterday, it rather reminded me of the story about the seven
blind men and the elephant, in that each of them is feeling the
animal at some side of it; and the one that feels the trunk
says, oh, this animal is just like a snake.

That is, marriage has many purposes. It is, as I
mentioned yesterday, a capacious, complex institution. And the
state's interest in having sexual activity between men and
women channeled into stable unions is one of the purposes of
marriage.

But I think that the larger understanding of
marriage, from the state's point of view, and the larger
purpose would put an emphasis on the household formation that
marriage founds, and the stability of that household formation,
its contribution to social order, to economic benefit, to
governance.

And I emphasize this because, as I said at the
outside, it's important to recognize the extent to which
marriage has been an institution of governance in our history.

Q. Let me ask you about that.
When you say "governance," how is marriage an
instrument of governance, when it's a union between two people?
How does that contribute to governance?

A. Looking at this historically, what I'm emphasizing here in
using that word is the regulatory purpose of marriage from the
state's point of view.

And long ago marriage had an important political
governance purpose. It set up men as heads of households who
would be responsible economically for their spouses and for any
of their dependents, whether those were biological children,
adopted children, stepchildren, slaves, apprentices, et cetera.

But the point of establishing marriage and giving
certain benefits to it was to ensure that the sovereign would
be able to govern the amorphous, large, variable population in
smaller subunits which were households.

Now, that political governance purpose of marriage
today is -- has shifted rather dramatically, because we no
longer assume that a single head of household governs everyone
below it. We have a much more individualized distribution of
political power in our population, particularly since 1920,
when women got the right to vote.

However, still today, the purpose of the state in
licensing and incentivizing marriage is to create stable
households in which the adults who reside there and are
committed to one another by their own consents will support one
another as well as their dependents.

The institution of marriage has always been at least
as much about supporting adults as it has been about supporting
minors, children, as the proponents tend to emphasize the
child's side.

There's hours of testimony, and the cross-examination is also worth reading (as is redirect). Taken together, the expert testimony is more or less eight days worth of expert testimony about the weakness and inconsistency of arguments against gay marriage, and two days of expert testimony from the proponents demonstrating exactly that weakness and inconsistency. Read the ruling for cliff notes, but I'd recommend the expert testimony, as well. This is good, though:

Plaintiffs and proponents presented expert testimony on
the meaning of marriage. Historian Nancy Cott testified about the
public institution of marriage and the state’s interest in
recognizing and regulating marriages. Tr 185:9-13. She explained
that marriage is “a couple’s choice to live with each other, to
remain committed to one another, and to form a household based on
their own feelings about one another, and their agreement to join
in an economic partnership and support one another in terms of the
material needs of life.” Tr 201:9-14. The state’s primary purpose
in regulating marriage is to create stable households. Tr 222:13-17.

Think tank founder David Blankenhorn testified that
marriage is “a socially-approved sexual relationship between a man
and a woman” with a primary purpose to “regulate filiation.” Tr
2742:9-10, 18. Blankenhorn testified that others hold to an
alternative and, to Blankenhorn, conflicting definition of
marriage: “a private adult commitment” that focuses on “the tender
feelings that the spouses have for one another.” Tr 2755:25-
2756:1; 2756:10-2757:17; 2761:5-6. To Blankenhorn, marriage is
either a socially approved sexual relationship between a man and a
woman for the purpose of bearing and raising children who are
biologically related to both spouses or a private relationship
between two consenting adults.

Cott explained that marriage as a social institution
encompasses a socially approved sexual union and an affective
relationship and, for the state, forms the basis of stable
households and private support obligations.
Both Cott and Blankenhorn addressed marriage as a
historical institution. Cott pointed to consistent historical
features of marriage, including that civil law, as opposed to
religious custom, has always been supreme in regulating and
defining marriage in the United States, Tr 195:9-15, and that one’s
ability to consent to marriage is a basic civil right, Tr 202:2-5.
Blankenhorn identified three rules of marriage (discussed further
in the credibility determinations, section I below), which he
testified have been consistent across cultures and times: (1) the
rule of opposites (the “man/woman” rule); (2) the rule of two; and
(3) the rule of sex. Tr 2879:17-25.

Cott identified historical changes in the institution of
marriage, including the removal of race restrictions through court
decisions and the elimination of coverture and other gender-based
distinctions. Blankenhorn identified changes that to him signify
the deinstitutionalization of marriage, including an increase in
births outside of marriage and an increasing divorce rate.
Both Cott and Blankenhorn testified that California
stands to benefit if it were to resume issuing marriage licenses to
same-sex couples. Blankenhorn noted that marriage would benefit
same-sex couples and their children, would reduce discrimination
against gays and lesbians and would be “a victory for the worthy
ideas of tolerance and inclusion.” Tr 2850:12-13. Despite the
multitude of benefits identified by Blankenhorn that would flow to
the state, to gays and lesbians and to American ideals were
California to recognize same-sex marriage, Blankenhorn testified
that the state should not recognize same-sex marriage. Blankenhorn
reasoned that the benefits of same-sex marriage are not valuable
enough because same-sex marriage could conceivably weaken marriage
as an institution. Cott testified that the state would benefit
from recognizing same-sex marriage because such marriages would
provide “another resource for stability and social order.” Tr
252:19-23.

Why was Blankenhorn's testimony not given credence?

The court permitted Blankenhorn to testify but reserved
the question of the appropriate weight to give to Blankenhorn’s
opinions. Tr 2741:24-2742:3. The court now determines that
Blankenhorn’s testimony constitutes inadmissible opinion testimony
that should be given essentially no weight.

Federal Rule of Evidence 702 provides that a witness may
be qualified as an expert “by knowledge, skill, experience,
training, or education.” The testimony may only be admitted if it
“is based upon sufficient facts or data” and “is the product of
reliable principles and methods.” Id. Expert testimony must be
both relevant and reliable, with a “basis in the knowledge and
experience of [the relevant] discipline.” Kumho Tire Co v
Carmichael, 526 US 137, 147, 149 (1999) (citing Daubert v Merrell
Dow Pharm, 509 US 579, 589, 592 (1993)).

While proponents correctly assert that formal training in
the relevant disciplines and peer-reviewed publications are not
dispositive of expertise, education is nevertheless important to
ensure that “an expert, whether basing testimony upon professional
studies or personal experience, employs in the courtroom the same
level of intellectual rigor that characterizes the practice of an
expert in the relevant field.” Kumho Tire, 526 US at 152. Formal
training shows that a proposed expert adheres to the intellectual
rigor that characterizes the field, while peer-reviewed
publications demonstrate an acceptance by the field that the work
of the proposed expert displays “at least the minimal criteria” of
intellectual rigor required in that field. Daubert v Merrell Dow
Pharm, 43 F3d 1311, 1318 (9th Cir 1995) (on remand) (“Daubert II”).

The methodologies on which expert testimony may be based
are “not limited to what is generally accepted,” Daubert II at 1319
n11, but “nothing in either Daubert or the Federal Rules of
Evidence requires a district court to admit opinion evidence that
is connected to existing data only by the ipse dixit of the
expert.” General Electric Co v Joiner, 522 US 136, 146 (1997).
The party proffering the evidence “must explain the expert’s
methodology and demonstrate in some objectively verifiable way that
the expert has both chosen a reliable * * * method and followed it
faithfully.” Daubert II, 43 F3d at 1319 n11.

Several factors are relevant to an expert’s reliability:
(1) “whether [a method] can be (and has been) tested”; (2) “whether
the [method] has been subjected to peer review and publication”;
(3) “the known or potential rate of error”; (4) “the existence and
maintenance of standards controlling the [method’s] operation”; (5)
“a * * * degree of acceptance” of the method within “a relevant
* * * community,” Daubert, 509 US at 593-94; (6) whether the expert
is “proposing to testify about matters growing naturally and
directly out of research they have conducted independent of the
litigation,” Daubert II, 43 F3d at 1317; (7) whether the expert has
unjustifiably extrapolated from an accepted premise to an unfounded
conclusion, see Joiner, 522 US at 145-146; (8) whether the expert
has adequately accounted for obvious alternative explanations, see
generally Claar v Burlington Northern RR Co, 29 F3d 499 (9th Cir
1994); (9) whether the expert “employs in the courtroom the same
level of intellectual rigor that characterizes the practice of an
expert in the relevant field,” Kumho Tire, 526 US at 152; and (10)
whether the field of expertise claimed by the expert is known to
reach reliable results for the type of opinion the expert would
give, see id at 151.
 
I'm convinced if Mumei ever wrote a book it would probably just be copy/pasted cited work from the 8000+ studies and books he has read.
 

Settin

Member
I'm feeling exceptionally lazy today and haven't the least patience for arguing about this, but I'd like to point out that almost every single one of the objections being raised was covered during Perry v. Schwarzenegger (now Hollingsworth v. Perry) at the circuit court during expert testimony. You should read the direct and cross-examinations of Professor Cott, in particular, as her testimony focuses on the history of marriage as a public and private institution.



There's hours of testimony, and the cross-examination is also worth reading (as is redirect). Taken together, the expert testimony is more or less eight days worth of expert testimony about the weakness and inconsistency of arguments against gay marriage, and two days of expert testimony from the proponents demonstrating exactly that weakness and inconsistency. Read the ruling for cliff notes, but I'd recommend the expert testimony, as well. This is good, though:



Why was Blankenhorn's testimony not given credence?

Get the fuck out. The first amendment would obviously defend any vague interpretation of rights of religious freedom in determining what marriage is.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
Having children or not is not arbitrary. Defining the relationship between two consenting adults is dumb, involving a child is different.

Not anymore arbitrary than marriage between two people that love each other or want to get tax benefits.

What gives a child a special status all of a sudden? I don't think they're worth a higher distinction than two adults being legally recognized as a unit.
 

mcfrank

Member
Sure, but I'm saying that's the problem. Remove any power the idea of marriage has in a legal sense and back it out to a purely religious ceremony. Marriage should not hold any power legally.

As a married athiest, who enjoys being married and has no plans for kids, fuck off.
 
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