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Miyamoto: games too same-y, industry has a long way to go

Jeez this thread is absolutely horrible to read. It really is a shame because there are some really interesting and well thought out posts in the middle of a cacophony of shitposting.

The point that Miyamoto is making is not that Nintendo is king and bulletproof. Its that developers creativity is being stunted because there are too many publishers making games based on market trends rather than because someone has come up with a unique and interesting gameplay idea.

I agree with him and agree that Nintendo are not blameless in this. Itd be great if this conversation stopped being about whos gaming habits are better than whose with a lovely dash of Nintendo hate and started being about the best approach developers could take to diversify the market and bring the 100s of millions of candy crushers back to console gaming to ensure our hobby has a long and prosperous future.
 
It's all about perceived risk. Publishers want to green light titles that will make them as much money as possible. They are profit maximizers.

Given the resource demands of AAA development, publishers can't spread their risk across multiple titles. Each game demands too many resources. The risk of loss is too great if the game doesn't sell, because each title costs huge sums money to create. If the game fails, the entire studio could go bankrupt.

As a result, publishers have become risk-averse. They seek the path of least resistance to the highest profit margin. This path will almost never include new, creative ideas because these ideas are unproven and thus riskier. The title itself may not be high risk, but if it is higher risk than another alternative (i.e., shootbang), the shootbang is green lit.
 
More people need to read this. The discussion would be a lot better.

Indeed. Nintendo fans seem to be pointing fingers from their glass house.

Edit: Over the generations different genres have been popular with gamers, and the latest trend of fps titles being hot is no exception. Generations back shooters were red hot. Then beat 'em ups became all the rage. Fighting games then took over. I really don't see anything out of the ordinary as companies have always chased after whatever was hot at the moment. As long as the games are fun I don't mind, there's plenty of other stuff out there to play.
 
To be fair, people did copy the Mario platformer formula a lot until around 1998. Platformers were a main genre during the 8 and 16-bit eras, and Mario 64 inspired a whole wave of 3D platformers on the N64 with the same structure. They just stopped doing it after a while.

Really every console generation has a genre that becomes the "main" one after a single huge success. The PSX experienced a massive surge of JRPGs after Final Fantasy VII. The N64 also become somewhat of an FPS console after Turok and GoldenEye. Open-world games were everywhere after GTA III. Halo turned the Xbox into an FPS console (which is partly why it sucked more people away from Nintendo than Sony). Gears and Call of Duty are the cause of most of today's biggest budgets being devoted to shooters. You could even argue PC indie gaming is seeing a huge number of randomly and procedurally generated games because of Minecraft (or MOBAs).
 
What a hideous thread haha.
Nintendo apologists and haters in full force...

If people could read, they would realize he said he was also guilty of this.
 
Dies Iræ;129348914 said:
It's all about perceived risk. Publishers want to green light titles that will make them as much money as possible. They are profit maximizers.

Given the resource demands of AAA development, publishers can't spread their risk across multiple titles. Each game demands too many resources. The risk of loss is too great if the game doesn't sell, because each title costs huge sums money to create. If the game fails, the entire studio could go bankrupt.

As a result, publishers have become risk-averse. They seek the path of least resistance to the highest profit margin. This path will almost never include new, creative ideas because these ideas are unproven and thus riskier. The title itself may not be high risk, but if it is higher risk than another alternative (i.e., shootbang), the shootbang is green lit.
Whilst this is 100% a valid point who is to say some great original ideas havent been lost because of this philosophy? Look at Skylanders, Minecraft and the Wii all is uniqueish ideas that have been wildly successful.
 
download-new-super-mario-brosnew-super-mario-bros-comparison-by-chaoslink1-on-deviantart-qtmkz72m.jpg


How many other franchises similar to Super Mario Bros. are out there? Unless I read the OP wrong, I don't think he's talking about sequels or spin-offs, but instead new developers coming up with genius ideas only to then stick with what's popular.
 
Whilst this is 100% a valid point who is to say some great original ideas havent been lost because of this philosophy? Look at Skylanders, Minecraft and the Wii all is uniqueish ideas that have been wildly successful.

Absolutely, I wouldn't doubt for a second that it's a problematic philosophy. It leads to franchise and gameplay fatigue.
 
What in this article made you reach that conclusion? Especially since, Oh right; Miyamoto cited himself as part of the problem

And then proceeded to say that he hopes "will always be a company that aggressively invests in something new," as if their software lineup somehow suggested this was already true.
 
Explain to me why Nintendo doesnt create anymore?

Disney has made a huge army of characters,
nintendo has the same old ones for like decades now.
 
And then proceeded to say that he hopes "will always be a company that aggressively invests in something new," as if their software lineup somehow suggested this was already true.

Splatoon, Codename Steam, Captain Toad, Project Giant Robo etc, Bayonetta ....and even Xenoblade look pretty different from what most of the other AAA publishers are doing....and what is fashionable to develop right now.

Explain to me why Nintendo doesnt create anymore?

Disney has made a huge army of characters,
nintendo has the same old ones for like decades now.

They create new IPs all the time. It is just that most of them aren´t as successful as their old IPs and people say that they don´t count because of some arbirtary reason.

The Last Story
Xenoblade Chronicles
Pandoras Tower
The Wonderful 101
Splatoon
Codename Steam

are some recent examples.
 
Like Captain America, and Luke Skywalker.

Let us not even get started on all of the folklore, myths, and stories involving characters of questionable public domain status.
Yeah Disney has created about 6 unique characters, the rest are either completely taken from fables or are at least highly derivative.
 
I hope nintendo goes back to making groundbreaking mario and zeldas and stop focusing on the motion controls gimmick. I loved nintendo the most with the snes pad.
 
I hope nintendo goes back to making groundbreaking mario and zeldas and stop focusing on the motion controls gimmick. I loved nintendo the most with the snes pad.

They already have. None of the recent Marios used motion controls and there's no indication Zelda would require a controller that does not come with the system (and the GamePad is not exactly conducive to being swung like a sword)/
 
Have you actually played the campaigns of other shooters? Most of these check off (or attempt to, anyways) all of these except for the ADS. Things like "worse level design" isn't an objective measure.

My point isn't to compare Halo's quality to that of other FPSs, but to point out that it isn't the special snowflake you're making it out to be.



That's one non-Nintendo franchise, and it's been around since the '90s. Okay, Halo is super-generic because of Tribes. Bam. Hell, using your logic I could argue that Halo is really just a string of generic rehashes. Look, I've even got a picture:



And unlike Gonzo's picture, I don't even have to show every game twice to make it look like a lot. It's also interesting to see how five Halo games for the 360 is perfectly acceptable, but one NSMB game per console is overdoing it.



Miyamoto isn't talking about indie games. I'm not talking about indie games. They're irrelevant to this thread, because once you start including them you can claim that every game is generic.

Did you? Halo is vastly different from most shooters out there in that not only does it have no Ads, it also has slow time to kill, significantly better AI, emphasis on vertical movement and the fact that it is a futuristic shooter unlike most shooters out there that focus on modern combat which makes them drastically different. I am not disagreeing with Miyamoto's statement here, I was just saying that it's kind of ironic that he is the one making it. Don't get me wrong, I like him and he is probably they only person in the executive chair in the industry I like, it's just his owns games fell too same-y. Back to Halo, did you just judge all the games by there cover. Do you realize what little significance covers have in showing what the gameplay is like.
Halo 1(brand new ip that is innovative)
Halo 2(brought online multiplayer to consoles with xbox live)
Halo 3(brought in forge level editor and theatre mode)
Halo ODST( Drastically changed the tone and gameplay of the series. Introduced firefight)
Halo Reach(Drastically changed the gameplay of the series yet again. Turned forge into a level creator)
Halo 4(Drastically changed the gameplay of the series yet again.
Not in a good way though
.)
Halo wars(completely different genre)
And I am not even mentioning the features each game added to the series.
And what the hell, tribes doesn't play anything like Halo.

And I am fine with Nintendo rehashing there games. I like them. But it's also the main reason why I believe the statement that Miyamoto is making is kind of ironic. True, but ironic.
 
Indeed. Nintendo fans seem to be pointing fingers from their glass house.

Edit: Over the generations different genres have been popular with gamers, and the latest trend of fps titles being hot is no exception. Generations back shooters were red hot. Then beat 'em ups became all the rage. Fighting games then took over. I really don't see anything out of the ordinary as companies have always chased after whatever was hot at the moment. As long as the games are fun I don't mind, there's plenty of other stuff out there to play.

THAT WAS NOT THE POINT THAT WAS ESTABLISHED.

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ACTUALLY READ THE POSTS AND THE ARTICLE.

No one is denying the existence of these games. They are just looking at where Nintendo has put most of its money and development priority--and it's in the same hats they've been throwing it in for the last 10-15 years: Mario, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., and Zelda, with a few other franchises to pad the lineup. In some cases, it's about how little effort they put forth to differentiate individual games in the same series, even across different hardware generations (which is where the NSMB comparison posts come in).

Read John Harker's post about paying the bills before posting anything else ok?
 
Splatoon, Codename Steam, Captain Toad, Project Giant Robo etc, Bayonetta ....and even Xenoblade look pretty different from what most of the other AAA publishers are doing....and what is fashionable to develop right now.

No one is denying the existence of these games. They are just looking at where Nintendo has put most of its money and development priority--and it's in the same hats they've been throwing it in for the last 10-15 years: Mario, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., and Zelda, with a few other franchises to pad the lineup. In some cases, it's about how little effort they put forth to differentiate individual games in the same series, even across different hardware generations (which is where the NSMB comparison posts come in).
 
THAT WAS NOT THE POINT THAT WAS ESTABLISHED.

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ACTUALLY READ THE POSTS AND THE ARTICLE.



Read John Harker's post about paying the bills before posting anything else ok?

I appreciate your effort to carry the torch my man.

I personally can't read this thread anymore haha.
 
I'm morbidly curious to read the articles that people IMAGINE were posted and are responding to as opposed to what was actually posted.
 
I think his point is every game doesn't need to be mario.
In the past few years every new game had to be call of duty or gears of war, and every big ubisoft game is assassin's creed with a different skin. Every mmo became world of warcraft.

Too many games are now a combination of ADS aiming, covershooting, ac/uncharted autoplatforming, filling bars and quicktime events.
For every just cause 2 (grappleshute is genius and core to the game) or dragon's dogma there are literally 100 games that just clumsily clone what is popular (without understanding it properly as insult to injury) instead of coming up with their own good ideas to base the core gameplay around.

Every mario game may be mario, but that doesn't mean pikmin should be mario, or zelda should be mario , or f zero should be mario.

Every cawadoody game is cod but battlefield did not have to copy cod... (but it did)

Look at splatoon, a unique take on competitive mp shooters, with unique gameplay at its core based around new ideas for game mechanics.
That is how you make games.
Not just by wanting to be call of duty or wow or gears of war super badly
 
I'm morbidly curious to read the articles that people IMAGINE were posted and are responding to as opposed to what was actually posted.

I realize some don't get subscriptions of EDGE but there is this amazing thing called Google.

This would be a good place to start.

Creativity is stifled as publishers are chasing after the violent fps market, and that's the majority of what he saw on display at E3.

Not sure what you got out of his comments, but that's what I came away with, and my comment stands. I've seen the generations where publishers were chasing after whatever was the hot thing at the time. Shooters, side scrolling beat 'em ups, platformers, Pac-Man clones, puzzle games, fighters, and now FPS.

I'm just saying this mentality among publishers really isn't anything new.

As I told Lex, read John Harker's posts.
 
THAT WAS NOT THE POINT THAT WAS ESTABLISHED.

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ACTUALLY READ THE POSTS AND THE ARTICLE.

Creativity is stifled as publishers are chasing after the violent fps market, and that's the majority of what he saw on display at E3.

Not sure what you got out of his comments, but that's what I came away with, and my comment stands. I've seen the generations where publishers were chasing after whatever was the hot thing at the time. Shooters, side scrolling beat 'em ups, platformers, Pac-Man clones, puzzle games, fighters, and now FPS.

I'm just saying this mentality among publishers really isn't anything new.
 
I think his point is every game doesn't need to be mario.
In the past few years every new game had to be call of duty or gears of war, and every big ubisoft game is assassin's creed with a different skin. Every mmo became world of warcraft.

Too many games are now a combination of ADS aiming, covershooting, ac/uncharted autoplatforming, filling bars and quicktime events.
For every just cause 2 (grappleshute is genius and core to the game) or dragon's dogma there are literally 100 games that just clumsily clone what is popular (without understanding it properly as insult to injury) instead of coming up with their own good ideas to base the core gameplay around.

Every mario game may be mario, but that doesn't mean pikmin should be mario, or zelda should be mario , or f zero should be mario.


Every cawadoody game is cod but battlefield did not have to copy cod... (but it did)

Probably one of the biggest disappointments of last gen.
 
Okay, I've written my view on this. I wrote this between classes, so it's not great.

I feel that we're at a "tough" time. You see, gaming has come a long way since it began. It evolved a lot in a considerable short amount of time. This new technology does open opportunities that weren't possible before. The thing is, when we have a new technology, it sets expectations. The situation we have now is that we have new and powerful tech, but to make good use of it you need to spend a lot of money. And we have those publishers with a lot of money and they do big games, full of "next-generation" graphics and it sets the bar too high. You'd certainly expect that their next game will be better, that the things they learned will prove useful in the next game. But they already spent millions and millions of dollars. They already had to sell a lot to break even and make a profit. This keeps going and we're in the situation we're now. The risk of not doing the same type of game, the type that sells a lot because they appeal to what's popular, what the majority wants, is too big. Thus, more and more these types of game get made and the problem gets worse.

But you will say: "This has always happened. We had lots of plataformers, lots of colectathons.". It's true. But the situation now is a little different. With plataformers you'd want more levels. With colectathons you'd want more things to collect. And this would at least lead to some gameplay differences, to bring new types of levels or new puzzles to find collectibles. But now, what is being clamored for is "shinier graphics, bigger worlds, more multiplayer stuff", but the end result is always point and shoot. It's using gore for the sake of gore, without a good purpose. It's chasing Hollywood and trying to make a deep story, a cinematic experience.

And you also need to have in mind that, yes, successful games will lead to very similar games, but there's two situations here. One you have the "copies" that are made just because it's what is selling and two they're made because they served as inspiration. This second one is very true when it comes to indies.

Anyway, this situation is really bad. Instead of "let's make a game. What kind of gameplay and world we will have" we now got "let's make a shooter. What kind of world we will have". Developers can't express their creativity and make the games they want. (inb4 what if they want to make a shooter). I'm using shooters as an example because it's the most common. MOBAs are another type that everyone is trying to make. It's something Keiji Inafune, for example, has said. Read this (Much more at the link, I recommend to read at least the entire "what Japanese industry does wrong" part) :

http://www.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=411847

4G: However, although there were many problems, it's worked out until very recently. Why do you think that things have changed so suddenly?

KI: It's because there was no competition before. For example, in the game industry 20 years ago, no matter what kind of game you made, you could sell 200 or 300 thousand copies. If you even made a decent game, it'd sell 500 thousand or a million copies. But those days are over.

4G: Why's that?

KI: For one, competition has intensified, and furthermore, players have gotten "used to" games. To use a simple analogy, any kind of erotic picture will turn on a middle school student, right? (laughs) Oh, but it's not like that so much anymore...

4G: Well, I guess I understand. (laughs)

KI: More. More. People always want more fun and prettier graphics, right? This is to be expected, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. But that's where a problem arose. The players' demands and the creators' demands wound up parting ways.

4G: Oh, maybe it looked like a graph showing the change from a company's net profit to a loss?

KI: Right. At first, it can be a good thing. Between the players' demands and the creators' demands, the creators' way took over and both sides' expectations increased at the same angle on the graph.

But, after a point, the players' demands took over. Whether it was the players' demands increasing at an unprecedented rate or the creators' slope trailing off, I'm still not sure. But the way it's going, I think that expectations have risen to a point that's impossible to catch up to.

4G: So, few games are able to break the records of the last mega-hit.

KI: That's right. Well in Japan, it's Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and Monster Hunter, right? And Pokémon and such. It's a very limited set of products. Others aren't well-established, so they don't sell.

He left Capcom because he couldn't make the games wanted. Same thing with Iga. And kinda the same with Kamiya and the Platinum guys.

And it's not like it's the publishers fault or the developers or even the consumers fault. No one is at fault. It's kinda inevitable. The problem is that this could've been different. In reality, the industry should've been a place where you can make the game you want without worries. It should be a place where if you want to make a different fighting game you can. Heck, Yu-Gi-Oh managed to make CARD GAMES ON MOTORCYCLES, why not make a FIGHTING GAME ON MOTORCYCLES? I doubt it would sell gang busters, I doubt the EVO crowd would be shitting themselves of excitement, but I'm certain a good amount of people would be amused and would try it out. And if it's good, if you really worked hard on this, I'm sure it would get recommendations and would sell enough for a profit. But we can't have that. The bar has been set too high. If your game is not 60FPS/1080p OPEN WORLD, GRITTY, MATURE, CINEMATIC, NEXT-GEN GRAPHICS, then it has little place. This is what's expected and this is what we get.

And don't say "that's how capitalism works". Look at the music industry. You do have the generic radio pop that wants to be in the top 30, but you also have a bunch of musicians that are solely worried with making the songs they want to make. There's a bunch of genres that are somewhat obscure and whose artists have a very specific audience. Drone, Shoegaze, avant-garde, noise, etc. Musicians in these genres are not worried about going for what is popular, they're worried in making what they want. And more often than not, going for a more mainstream sound is "frowned upon"; fans feel disappointed. After all they listen to this musician because they like the type of songs they create. It's only fair to expect them to stay true to what make them unique because if someone wants to listen to something more mainstream and/or generic, there's others to listen to.
 
Read John Harker's post about paying the bills before posting anything else ok?

But they're not even paying the bills. Expectations from them have reached an all-time low, both creatively and financially. Their approach to most of their cash cows has run them into the ground - NSMB is a great example of the much broader toxicity that has seeped across their software development approach. Many of their big franchises have squandered their relevance and missed the boat on opportunities that other publishers and franchises in similar spaces - with which Nintendo competes regardless of how much they'd prefer otherwise and how many "fundamental differences" you can point out - have been more than capable of seizing.

The critiques of Nintendo are monstrously different than the critiques leveled at most other companies, precisely because Nintendo isn't actually getting good results and especially because their figurehead makes these kinds of professions about the industry while not really doing anything to change the tempo within his own company.
 
*sigh*

Sure, I can talk about the differences between new games to old games, but that's not what Miyamoto is talking about. He's not referencing continuous franchises. What a surprise, Mario plays like Mario! Kart plays like Kart! Zelda plays like Zelda!

His general complaint isn't about franchises in particular, but about the samey feeling you get at these events as it feels like a majority of the big budget industry are all going in the exact same direction.

In fact, let's look at some of the biggest games at last E3:

- Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare
- Battlefield
- Destiny

- Alien Isolation
- Assassin's Creed
- Batman
- Bloodborne
- Borderlands: The Prequel
- Crackdown
- The Crew
- Dead Island 2
- Dragon Age
- Evolve
- The Evil Within
- Far Cry 4
- Halo 5

- Kingdom Hearts 3
- LittleBigPlanet 3
- Mass Effect 4
- Rainbow Six
- The Devision
- Uncharted 4
- The Witcher 3

(I might have forgotten a few (not counting Nintendo games), but this should serve my purpose)

On this list we have 9 First Person shooters. That makes up almost half the list of major games coming out. All of them existing in one single genre, some of which simply keep coming out every single year. As an example - is it truly fair to compare say, NSMB to Call of Duty? 4 games in an 8 year span versus 8 games in an 8 year span.

Of games that are basically about nothing but shooting and killing folks. When you walked around the E3 floor this year, pretty much the games most advertised and easiest to find to play were all games where the graphics feature something similar to trying to mimic real life and shooting and killing other people - both in single player and multiplayer. A real lack of variety in these experiences.

Miyamoto also openly admits Nintendo isn't exempt from criticism, just that what he is talking about right now isn't about what Nintendo does. Nintendo is guilty of milking Mario's name and arguably sequelitis, but when they come up with a new idea... it's typically original. Animal Crossing. Pikmin. STEAM. Splatoon. These "core" experiences may feel far and few between, but they are all very original and feel like nothing else in their own genre, let alone on the market today.

On that list, the only new game that doesn't feel like it might be basically like every other game is The Evil Within.

The only reason Nintendo's games feel so refreshing compared to the rest of the industry is that so few folks even attempt to make games like they do, and the few who try fail typically. Nintendo certainly can use more newer core IP's, but the basic premise still remains here: The whole of the gaming industry feels like we are trying to captalize on basically 3 main types of games and gameplay: FPS/3rd person shooter, Western Style RPG (typically of the high fantasy variety), and Action-Adventure.

NIntendo is obviously pingeon holed in terms of the paltformer genre, but who else is even bothering to release quality platforming games. Sega with Sonic? It's about general trends, not what individual companies are doing wrong.

8 First person shooters out of a list of 23 games. That's about one-third, not half.
Out of those 8 fps, 5 are sequels to established series so according to your post, they should not be considered same-y since they are not new IPs'. One of them is a spritual successor to an already established series and it's trying to resurrect an entire sub genre(tactical shooters). The two new IPs'(Destiny and Evolve) are trying new thing that are kind of different from what's already available on the market. With all of that said, I see the point you are trying to make and mostly agree. Developers need to stop chasing after call of duty money and try something new. Hell activision is doing this and they own call of duty.
 
With the skyrocketing of game budgets I can see Miyamoto having a great deal of ideas for new IPs, but the scale and price of making them happen is just too big an undertaking for any company, even Nintendo, to try them out. I don't think Miyamoto is entirely satisfied with the same-y sequels Nintendo puts out like the NSMB series on a creative level, but I think he understands it those are business products created to drive up profit.

I think we're going to see some pretty creative things coming out of him and his team now that he's "retired" to making smaller titles. Even with revisiting existing IPs like StarFox I think there's going to be some really creative mechanics in there. I think his criticism of new IPs specifically created to be as derivative as possible is completely valid, but at the same time the industry has shown it's not really that receptive to new ideas as much as it should be.
 
While I don't think there needs to be a checklist of new features to justify a sequel, this is a pretty poor list to present as a counterargument.

I was trying to please their question, which pretty much asked for a checklist. I'm not trying to argue, just stating my opinion.
 
But they're not even paying the bills. Expectations from them have reached an all-time low, both creatively and financially. Their approach to most of their cash cows has run them into the ground - NSMB is a great example of the much broader toxicity that has seeped across their software development approach. Many of their big franchises have squandered their relevance and missed the boat on opportunities that other publishers and franchises in similar spaces - with which Nintendo competes regardless of how much they'd prefer otherwise and how many "fundamental differences" you can point out - have been more than capable of seizing.

The critiques of Nintendo are monstrously different than the critiques leveled at most other companies, precisely because Nintendo isn't actually getting good results and especially because their figurehead makes these kinds of professions about the industry while not really doing anything to change the tempo within his own company.

if you release a huge game and it brings in $500MM dollars in Q4, and you run a big company and it's public and you have investors who care about Quarterly Stability with a focus on YoY growth, how do you at least match that revenue the following Q4?

if a "big, innovative" new game requires 1 year of pre production and 2 years of dedicated development (so, 3 years to launch), and executive management tells you that you need to bring in at least $500MM to match last year's Q4... how do you propose you do that?

How do you maintain that revenue?
If the game you want to make - that you're referencing in your post above, this fictional game - really needs 3 years, what do you do?

I'm seriously asking you, what would your product strategy be?
Have a dozen studious all at different timelines that have pre pro going on at different stages all building huge games that only come out every 3 years? that's a massive amount of employees on payroll... and the risk of one game flopping and having to fire a lot of people is kind of rough. and games delay, so if you miss one, how do you fill that?

It's clear what Nintendo's builds toward with their various Mario lines on the image that's floating around.
You have to maintain some baseline of revenue while you build your 3-year game.

Companies can take slightly different approaches, but the math tends to lean in the same direction.

Ubi had a huge hit with AC and now annulaizes it to maintain that revenue - roughly with the same launch dates. And takes 3-4 years and releases big new IPs on top of that with the money they are making from other games (AC keeps them from shrinking as an organization).

Rockstar releases 1 GTA every 5 years, and pretty much makes the same revenue as AC does in 5 years but with 1 game. they also do not grow really as a company, and keep their team sizes lean and small and fit within an organization that's larger than itself. And is managed by 2 people very closely.

both are succesful business strategies.

EA has it's sports line which come out the same time every year as well as it's base, and then grows into social and mobile and tries the occasional hot new thing and then builds on that success.

Activision operates specifically like a CPG company in it's mentality, taking very few but very big risks and increases their attach rates and grows those brands typically over an entire generation.

Nintendo has it's strategy too, and it relies heavily on annual mario.
Does that mean they are creatively bankrupt? not at all, they do the same as a lot of people. it's clear which product lines are for revenue and which are for advancement of the industry, or however you want to spin in. but they can't be blamed for not wanting to lay off a ton of people every year because they can't hit their revenue goals and need to shrink, in the hopes they have another huge hit every 3 years and can re-hire those people again. it's just not how they operate.

and yes, the wii u is a tank. the product didn't take off. but that's not really what we are talking about here, are we?

okay, /businesstalkout!
 
If you have read the statements, you would know he's also critiquing himself as well, along with the developers who make "same-y" games just because they're popular? And he's not wrong in that regard. Look at the CoD clones, WoW clones, LoL/DoTA clones, etc. Made just because they're popular. Although, he's only referring to the realistic, "bloody shooters" as he said, but it can go to the others as well.
 
How many other franchises similar to Super Mario Bros. are out there? Unless I read the OP wrong, I don't think he's talking about sequels or spin-offs, but instead new developers coming up with genius ideas only to then stick with what's popular.

Imagine if they did one of these images for Mario Kart? Or Pokemon?
 
I'm not making a statement either way but I am irked by the way in which the defence force has assembled here, so I'd like to butt in and clarify something.

'YOU HAVEN'T READ THE FIRST POST!!!!!!'

Have you? Look:

'Oh, I’ve made quite the grand statement, haven’t I? My comment was based upon the fact that I have not been fully satisfied with the inspirations that I have or that other people in the industry have in general. I feel that industry [trends], rather than the creator’s individuality and uniqueness, tend to be prioritized. When the people who manage the development budget take the lead in making a game, creators tend to make games that are already popular in the marketplace. Even when there is opportunity for young developers to make something freely, they tend to make similar proposals. I can’t help but feel that the industry has a long way to go. I hope Nintendo will always be a company that aggressively invests in something new – something born from each creator’s individual characteristics.'

First of all, if Miyamoto admits his own similar lack of inspiration he is fair game for our criticisms, and people need to stop the baseless defence 'because of who he is'.

Furthermore, his ultimate point is about overly similar games, of which people in here have suggested Nintendo are also guilty of developing. His ultimate point is not about the method by which they arrived, that's just an angle he's attacking, so all this '[Well Nintendo aren't copying third parties and releasing shooters so they're not being derivative in this context]' stuff is a mere technicality and certainly not a counterpoint to the actual issue - overly similar games.

If people are honestly so desperate to defend Nintendo, they'd be better served trying to prove the dissimilarities in said games being attacked for being derivative.
 
I'm not making a statement either way but I am irked by the way in which the defence force has assembled here, so I'd like to butt in and clarify something.

'YOU HAVEN'T READ THE FIRST POST!!!!!!'

Have you? Look:

'Oh, I’ve made quite the grand statement, haven’t I? My comment was based upon the fact that I have not been fully satisfied with the inspirations that I have or that other people in the industry have in general. I feel that industry [trends], rather than the creator’s individuality and uniqueness, tend to be prioritized. When the people who manage the development budget take the lead in making a game, creators tend to make games that are already popular in the marketplace. Even when there is opportunity for young developers to make something freely, they tend to make similar proposals. I can’t help but feel that the industry has a long way to go. I hope Nintendo will always be a company that aggressively invests in something new – something born from each creator’s individual characteristics.'

First of all, if Miyamoto admits his own similar lack of inspiration he is fair game for our criticisms, and people need to stop the baseless defence 'because of who he is'.

Furthermore, his ultimate point is about overly similar games, of which people in here have suggested Nintendo are also guilty of developing. His ultimate point is not about the method by which they arrived, that's just an angle he's attacking, so all this '[Well Nintendo aren't copying third parties and releasing shooters so they're not being derivative in this context]' stuff is a mere technicality and certainly not a counterpoint to the actual issue - overly similar games.

If people are honestly so desperate to defend Nintendo, they'd be better served trying to prove the dissimilarities in said games being attacked for being derivative.


No one's defending Nintendo. If you actually read the posts, especially the 20 or so posts repeatedly saying that Miyamoto takes responsibility for this as well, then you'd know that he's referring to current gameplay in general.

But no, its just easier to post up a picture or driveby one liner about how "ironic" his quote is (BTW that's not ironic, that's hypocritical if he exempted himself and Nintendo from his criticism.) This has happened ad nausem in every thread even close to relating to Nintendo/Miyamoto/Wii U/whatever and it significantly derails the actual topic of discussion. I'm just tired of having every thread consistently bombarded by the same driveby shitposters and juniors looking to score cool points with the schadenfreude that is Nintendo's current fortunes.

It brings nothing to the conversation and ruins what are actually really interesting topics.
 
An irony of Miyamoto's exact words - relating to creating games similar to what are already common - is that while he says he is unhappy with his own performance, the games Nintendo makes are not all that similar to what is common today in the console market. And that in fact is the entire reason they are continually criticized for "failing to evolve" and making the shooters, cinematic adventure games, and sandbox Bethesda-style RPGs that are supposed to be the gold standard of gaming today.

Where is the image showing that the 2D Mario or Mario Kart or Pokemon series look identical to 20 other platformers, kart racers, and JRPG monster battle collections that have flooded the market thanks to AAA publishers vying for the same audience? Where are the 50 screen shots that make the last three console Zeldas look like every other big budget cinematic third person character adventure game?
 
if you release a huge game and it brings in $500MM dollars in Q4, and you run a big company and it's public and you have investors who care about Quarterly Stability with a focus on YoY growth, how do you at least match that revenue the following Q4?

if a "big, innovative" new game requires 1 year of pre production and 2 years of dedicated development (so, 3 years to launch), and executive management tells you that you need to bring in at least $500MM to match last year's Q4... how do you propose you do that?

How do you maintain that revenue?
If the game you want to make - that you're referencing in your post above, this fictional game - really needs 3 years, what do you do?

I'm seriously asking you, what would your product strategy be?
Have a dozen studious all at different timelines that have pre pro going on at different stages all building huge games that only come out every 3 years? that's a massive amount of employees on payroll... and the risk of one game flopping and having to fire a lot of people is kind of rough. and games delay, so if you miss one, how do you fill that?

It's clear what Nintendo's builds toward with their various Mario lines on the image that's floating around.
You have to maintain some baseline of revenue while you build your 3-year game.

Companies can take slightly different approaches, but the math tends to lean in the same direction.

Ubi had a huge hit with AC and now annulaizes it to maintain that revenue - roughly with the same launch dates. And takes 3-4 years and releases big new IPs on top of that with the money they are making from other games (AC keeps them from shrinking as an organization).

Rockstar releases 1 GTA every 5 years, and pretty much makes the same revenue as AC does in 5 years but with 1 game. they also do not grow really as a company, and keep their team sizes lean and small and fit within an organization that's larger than itself. And is managed by 2 people very closely.

both are succesful business strategies.

EA has it's sports line which come out the same time every year as well as it's base, and then grows into social and mobile and tries the occasional hot new thing and then builds on that success.

Activision operates specifically like a CPG company in it's mentality, taking very few but very big risks and increases their attach rates and grows those brands typically over an entire generation.

Nintendo has it's strategy too, and it relies heavily on annual mario.
Does that mean they are creatively bankrupt? not at all, they do the same as a lot of people. it's clear which product lines are for revenue and which are for advancement of the industry, or however you want to spin in. but they can't be blamed for not wanting to lay off a ton of people every year because they can't hit their revenue goals and need to shrink, in the hopes they have another huge hit every 3 years and can re-hire those people again. it's just not how they operate.

and yes, the wii u is a tank. the product didn't take off. but that's not really what we are talking about here, are we?

okay, /businesstalkout!


This will go mostly ignored like your other post in this thread has, unfortunately.
 
This is arguing in bad faith; good job picking the obvious one, that happens to have a stable. Activision only has diversity by the transitive property of owning Blizzard, and even then it's not diverse, by PC standards at all. EA could only be called diverse if 2 eventual sim games and mobile is all it takes to be diverse. And EA represents a third of all current gen sales.

This is simply you not being familiar with just how much is actually within Activision and EA's stable. It's massive. EA has Popcap games, for example. Look at Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare. There's a billion examples of games like that in EA's stable now.

I'd argue there is no point to a sequel if the gameplay isn't changed. Which is why you see so many repackaged ips with different control schemes that make you do the same damn thing as the last game, so they can get money out of people who just need a new label on everything. The AAA industry has been come a tabloid industry, where each new game is barely improved so they have something to deliver on next time. Case in point: Sunset Overdrive is Ratchet and Clank with a new paint job. Or Dead Rising with better mobility.

There's a point to everything. There's merit to games that are very similar to their predecessors; sometimes more of a great thing is still great. But if we're arguing diversity, then the important thing to note is that it's not enough to choose one element and be diverse about it. One must manufacture that diversity in all elements of its design: gameplay, music, visuals, characters, themes, worlds, enemies. You can't say you're being diverse if you choose to only focus on one or two elements of these categories and make it new. IT all matters.

Similarly, Sunset Overdrive is absolutely nothing like Ratchet and Clank. That's like saying they're the same because they both have novel guns. If we're going to pretend that is similar, then we might as well drop the pretense and say no company has ever made a new game before, and certainly not Nintendo by that outrageous standard.
 
But if we're arguing diversity, then the important thing to note is that it's not enough to choose one element and be diverse about it. One must manufacture that diversity in all elements of its design: gameplay, music, visuals, characters, themes, worlds, enemies. You can't say you're being diverse if you choose to only focus on one or two elements of these categories and make it new. IT all matters..

I'm not sure why I'm replying to more of what you're trying to spew since you ignored my response from yesterday, which is ironic since you said I was wasting your time originally. Whose criteria aside from your own says that everything must be new to be diverse exactly?
 
Funny, i was thinking the other day how "Semi-realistic shooter with RPG elements" has literally become the default gameplay for western games.
For the last things that didn't actually need to be the above, see: Bioshock Infinite, The Last of Us, Watch_Dogs, MGS4.
It's like studios don't even go "Hey, how could we integrate a fun gameplay in this?"
"Wait, did we implement basic shooting features yet? And RPG elements? Get those in, then we're talking!"
What do you mean stealth?
What do you mean melee?
What do you mean tactics?
What do you mean, oh dear, turn-based?
What do you mean, something new?
No, never heard of that.

In the gameplay department, some Nintendo department as guilty as usual, but definitely less so than the western homogenization of the last generation. It's been a quite embarrassing run for anyone who doesn't actually like shooting that much.

Then again, you only need to look beyond today's most publicized franchise to shake off the dread. Plus, there's other things.
I wouldn't fault Ubisoft at all in gameplay variety, for instance. Quality perhaps, but variety, definitely not.
 
I'm not sure why I'm replying to more of what you're trying to spew since you ignored my response from yesterday, which is ironic since you said I was wasting your time originally. Whose criteria aside from your own says that everything must be new to be diverse exactly?

I made multiple massive posts. Your "response" was frankly comical and demonstrated you literally did not understand a single element of my commentary. You are speaking from the emotional perspective of someone who is a Nintendo fan and not someone who is trying to analyze the landscape to any reasonable degree.

Since you are clearly incapable of separating your preferences from what people are actually saying, I can't bother going around in circles for yet a fifth massive post. I made several hundreds of words+ posts in this topic (once more if you actually want to try this time: One, Two, Three, Four) which elaborated in great length the great nuance of my points, and you came at them with a blunt hammer and demonstrated you failed to understand even the simplest element of it.

I'm fully ready to respond to any argument you make that actually addresses points I'm making. I am not going to chase the tail of someone who can't be arsed to actually read line by line and understand context, nuance and remove emotion from the equation.
 
Didn't he criticize the Occulus Rift/Virtual Gaming?

Yeah...

Add another to the list of drivebys that didn't read the OP or any of the following posts.

I don't know how you could make this statement without comepletley ignoring the western indie scene. Of course aaa is gonna be stilted they have absurd risks. I think there is probably more variation on the market now than ever before.

And another.
 
I made multiple massive posts. Your "response" was frankly comical and demonstrated you literally did not understand a single element of my commentary. You are speaking from the emotional perspective of someone who is a Nintendo fan and not someone who is trying to analyze the landscape to any reasonable degree.

Since you are clearly incapable of separating your preferences from what people are actually saying, I can't bother going around in circles for yet a fifth massive post. I made several hundreds of words+ posts in this topic (once more if you actually want to try this time: One, Two, Three, Four) which elaborated in great length the great nuance of my points, and you came at them with a blunt hammer and demonstrated you failed to understand even the simplest element of it.

I'm fully ready to respond to any argument you make that actually addresses points I'm making. I am not going to chase the tail of someone who can't be arsed to actually read line by line and understand context, nuance and remove emotion from the equation.

So is calling someone emotional your new way methodology of calling someone a liar when you disagree with them? Because I don't think it means what you think it does.

I have read every single one of your posts in this thread and there is no nuance, subtlety or grey area for you to even make some sort of reasonable stance on the issue.

I have asked you several simple questions which you have not answered and keep linking to your posts which do not cover any of them. You can continue trying to ride your high horse though, if it makes you feel better about yourself.
 
I don't know how you could make this statement without comepletley ignoring the western indie scene. Of course aaa is gonna be stilted they have absurd risks. I think there is probably more variation on the market now than ever before.
 
So is calling someone emotional your new way methodology of calling someone a liar when you disagree with them? Because I don't think it means what you think it does.

I have read every single one of your posts in this thread and there is no nuance, subtlety or grey area for you to even make some sort of reasonable stance on the issue.

I have asked you several simple questions which you have not answered and keep linking to your posts which do not cover any of them. You can continue trying to ride your high horse though, if it makes you feel better about yourself.

"Emotion" means that you are reacting with your gut instead of your intellect. I have not responded to your 'questions' because they are questions posed to points I have not made or said. You're attacking phantoms, bullshit nonsense that you think I say because you fail to understand any of my points. You keep saying you read what I said, but you're demonstrating with your words you have not. Since I know what I mean and what my points are, I can tell you that definitively. It's up to you to make the effort to show me to actually understand what's being argued. That's why I keep telling you to read the posts and asks questions that involve the actual points I am making.

Further, attempting to bring up ancient issues as a way to deflect from present discussion just further demonstrates that you are not interested in actually evaluating the arguments being made. Once again, an emotional response. I don't think you realize you're simply proving the point I was making. You're not very interested in the arguments being made; you're interested in attacking boogeymen.
 
This is simply you not being familiar with just how much is actually within Activision and EA's stable. It's massive. EA has Popcap games, for example. Look at Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare. There's a billion examples of games like that in EA's stable now.

If by that you mean shooters, then yes.

There's a point to everything. There's merit to games that are very similar to their predecessors; sometimes more of a great thing is still great. But if we're arguing diversity, then the important thing to note is that it's not enough to choose one element and be diverse about it. One must manufacture that diversity in all elements of its design: gameplay, music, visuals, characters, themes, worlds, enemies. You can't say you're being diverse if you choose to only focus on one or two elements of these categories and make it new. IT all matters.

Similarly, Sunset Overdrive is absolutely nothing like Ratchet and Clank. That's like saying they're the same because they both have novel guns. If we're going to pretend that is similar, then we might as well drop the pretense and say no company has ever made a new game before, and certainly not Nintendo by that outrageous standard.
If the game is getting a sequel on a new system then sure. But something like last of us, could've been an uncharted expansion pack and it wouldn't have lost anything. Blood Dragon proved that. Even bayo2s director noted that just the same wasn't good enough, even though we would welcome it. And if everything matters, why do we allow games to improve on everything but the mechanics. Gtav takes steps back from max Payne 3 in just the controls alone, and that game is breaking records.I don't care how great the draw distance is if I'm not enjoying interacting with the game to begin with.
 
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