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What's going on with Square Enix's Luminous Engine?

duckroll

Member
Since Square Enix has finally resurfaced in the past week with a bunch of Japanese announcements and interviews for their big upcoming products, I think it's time to have a little status update on the progress of their big technology project.

Luminous Engine was announced back in 2010 as Square Enix's solution to development and technological issues faced by their internal Japanese developers and to pave a way for efficient development into the next-generation (now the current-generation). They hired Yoshihisa Hashimoto to lead the development of the engine and the team building it. He became the CTO of Square Enix in Japan.

Throughout 2011, they were holding talks and interviews talking the engine up and promising a demo showcase when it was ready. In 2012 they finally debuted the Agni Philosophy tech demo, which impressed a lot of people. They continued to aggressively recruit staff for development of the engine.

Then at some point they just stopped talking about it. In 2013 there wasn't any sort of focus on the engine itself. They announced both Final Fantasy XV and Kingdom Hearts 3, but didn't have much to show off. Nomura candidly said that XV was not entirely on the Luminous Engine at the time because it wasn't really ready. He said that KH3 would run entirely on it, but that they were having difficulty getting it running in realtime which was why the E3 teaser was pre-rendered.

Towards the end of 2013 there were rumors from someone who supposedly used to work at Square Enix that the Luminous Engine wasn't going well and that it might be getting dumped. Earlier this year, Hashimoto resigned from Square Enix, leaving the CTO position at Square Enix Japan vacant. The radio silence surrounding the state of the engine continued.

Now we're near the end of 2014, and Tabata confirms that XV still isn't running entirely on Luminous Engine. Nomura confirms in an interview this week that KH3 is still facing rendering issues due to the engine, so he's focusing on writing, costume design, and world selections instead. Earlier on, when Tabata said that the Type-0 HD remaster would be taking advantage of the technological know-how they have learned while working on XV, it seemed like there was a possibility it was using Luminous Engine tech, but as it turns out the remaster is running on a custom-rigged Hexadrive engine meant for last-gen, with DX11 technological hooks allowing them to use a more advanced lighting system.

It seems that despite the good intentions of wanting to create an advanced in-house engine which would make development easier, it has had the reverse effect. Development on their two biggest titles now seem to be once again hampered by R&D not being up to speed. Is this going to end up being Crystal Tools all over again?
 
So, at least four years wasted on something that's still not working properly?! Should have just licensed an engine, or bought a version of MT Framework from Capcom.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
UGH. Not this shit again. THEY ALREADY HAVE UE4 FULLY LICENSED! Why don't they just tranfer everything to that!?

Jesus christ, they spend more time wasting it then actually making games, Their management chain and development procedures seem like they are still fucked in the ass like the Crystal tools days. Have they learned nothing!?

It seems like they have no choice but to move to smartphone because that seems to be all they know how to make these days with any kind of competency or timeliness
 

kadotsu

Banned
I think this and Shinra technologies shows that the top management at SE doesn't understand that they don't have the resources to be a middleware/IDE player. The major players in Engines have become very sophisticated and the recent trend goes to the engine itself being a App Store like platform. Square Enix seems do do nothing of the sort.
They pour millions into R&D and asset creation for what seems to be vaporware when they should be licensing tech, create some specific shader models to change the look to something unique and let their art team handle the rest. They would do better in augmenting and selling tech for UE4.
 

Exentryk

Member
However, we have tremendously improved the engine this time. We integrated the Luminous Studio engine with the original engine for FFXV that we were calling "Ebony". With the engine we have now, the game was able to be improved and from then on, development proceeded steadily.
- Tabata during the XV live demo
 

jiggle

Member
Agni's looked so good
Had such high hope
I just hope verendus' time map is accurate



Could xv have been a '14 release if not for this
 

duckroll

Member
- Tabata during the XV live demo

That's exactly the same thing Nomura was saying last year. That the game is running on a hybrid of the old engine and Luminous Engine, but at the time he was hopeful that they would eventually transit entirely to Luminous. I guess that's never happening at this point if they want to ship the game.
 

raven777

Member
wasn't SE suppose to learn from mistakes of white engine/crystal tools from last gen?

well at least FFXV is looking fantastic so hopefully they sort it out soon. The way Tabata said in the demo presentation seems to me that they are in process of migrating completely from Ebony to Luminous. Hopefully the engine is done/almost done and that migration process doesn't take long.
 

duckroll

Member
I was wondering if Nirolak hadn't made thread about this last month and saw that was about Panta Rhei :lol

Yes. Both are having lots of problems. If not for the fact that Konami only makes two games these days, and both of them are now running well on the Fox Engine, we would have a thread for that too. Out of the three, I guess Kojima was the one who actually managed to deliver on the tech front.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
What's wrong with Panty Raid? Seems like a good engine to me besides only being shown on Deep Down so far. As far as i know, that engine isnt compatible with last gen, so it obviously isnt going to be used in favor of MT framework.

But luminous is supposed to be for the projects SE is working on right now, and they are fucking it up
 
Looks like Crystal Tools fiasco all over again, actually might be a bigger trainwreck. In the end, they got 3 games out of Crystal Tools, so much time and effort spent creating it to only output 3 measly games.
 

Mlatador

Banned
Square Enix isn't even able to finish their # 1 flagship title with current engine tech. To me it looks like they've already overestimated themselves, while at the same time undestimating the amount of time it takes to fullfill their crazy visions.

In this regard, what good would the Luminous Engine bring? Even if they finish its development, I highly doubt there will come anything substantial out of it. A super awesome graphic-engine also means greater aspiration and more work to fully utilize it, and that is a serious problem right now for Square Enix.

I would not be surprised if it got canceled or put on hold. If you ask me, they should go less complicated in their graphics department by using excisting tech - or even downgrade - and free up recourses to create great stories and games.

Their next mainline Final Fantasy should be on handheld, preferably in 2D or made with an easier to utilize 3D graphics engine. That's where the money is to be made in Japan anyway. That way they could produce the best looking handheld game, reach millions of millions of handheld fans all over the world AND avoid getting stuck in self-imposed, overambitious development hell, while at the same time spending a fractions of what a home console game (like Final Fantasy XV) would cost.
 

Exentryk

Member
That's exactly the same thing Nomura was saying last year. That the game is running on a hybrid of the old engine and Luminous Engine, but at the time he was hopeful that they would eventually transit entirely to Luminous. I guess that's never happening at this point if they want to ship the game.

I think previously Luminous was only for lightning and camera, but now the integration is much better (more options)? They are dropping visual work assets and running that in real time too (Stella/Luna scene).

But yes, Luminous should have be fully done by now. Definitely must be having problems.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but functionally speaking, this means :

- Because of the incompetence of SE's tech team, the individual development teams at SE who were supposed to use full LE are forced to junk-scrap existing engine, scraps of LE, and basically pull their own leg at developing the tech that the LE team was supposed to support.

Is it fair to put it that way?
 
What's wrong with Panty Raid? Seems like a good engine to me besides only being shown on Deep Down so far. As far as i know, that engine isnt compatible with last gen, so it obviously isnt going to be used in favor of MT framework.

But luminous is supposed to be for the projects SE is working on right now, and they are fucking it up

Well, this is the thread Nirolak made.

Yes. Both are having lots of problems. If not for the fact that Konami only makes two games these days, and both of them are now running well on the Fox Engine, we would have a thread for that too. Out of the three, I guess Kojima was the one who actually managed to deliver on the tech front.

Aren't the PES games also running on Fox though?

edit: oh I think you did mean that and MGS. I had P.T./Silent Hills and MGS in mind.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Yes. Both are having lots of problems. If not for the fact that Konami only makes two games these days, and both of them are now running well on the Fox Engine, we would have a thread for that too. Out of the three, I guess Kojima was the one who actually managed to deliver on the tech front.

Then again, Fox Engine didn't look as impressive, with its tech demos, imo.
Although PT looks great and all.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Correct me if I'm wrong, but functionally speaking, this means :

- Because of the incompetence of SE's tech team, the individual development teams at SE who were supposed to use full LE are forced to junk-scrap existing engine, scraps of LE, and basically pull their own leg at developing the tech that the LE team was supposed to support.

Is it fair to put it that way?

Yeah...seems like the mismanagement level at SE is still too damn high
 
Then again, Fox Engine didn't look as impressive, with its tech demos, imo.
Although PT looks great and all.

Yeah, what we have seen of FFXV so far looks much more impressive visually than MGSV. However, SH being next gen only I expect it to look more impressive than MGSV. The trailer at TGS was in engine right?
 

raven777

Member
Yeah, what we have seen of FFXV so far looks much more impressive visually than MGSV. However, SH being next gen only I expect it to look more impressive than MGSV. The trailer at TGS was in engine right?

everything except that battle ships going over Accord scene was in-engine.
 

duckroll

Member
Then again, Fox Engine didn't look as impressive, with its tech demos, imo.
Although PT looks great and all.

I don't think that's the best way to judge an engine. How "impressive" a game looks graphically is as much related to the work put into the assets as what the engine is capable of. The most important benefit of having a good in-house engine is having internal support for the sort of technology the developers need to use to make the games they do. Good tools, good workflow systems, ease of import/export for various assets, and being able to make a call or walk next door to the people who actually made the engine to request for help or changes when you run into issues. These are the things which help the people making games make them better and make them faster, allowing companies to ship products.

So far the Fox Engine has shown that it actually works and games can be made on them. Panta Rhei and Luminous Engine not so much.
 

BriGuy

Member
It's been sad watching one of my all time favorite developers slide into ruin, especially when it's been drawn out for such a long time.

If and when we do get Terminator and time travel technology, I'm going to prevent Spirits Within from ever being made.
 

UrbanRats

Member
I don't think that's the best way to judge an engine. How "impressive" a game looks graphically is as much related to the work put into the assets as what the engine is capable of. The most important benefit of having a good in-house engine is having internal support for the sort of technology the developers need to use to make the games they do. Good tools, good workflow systems, ease of import/export for various assets, and being able to make a call or walk next door to the people who actually made the engine to request for help or changes when you run into issues. These are the things which help the people making games make them better and make them faster, allowing companies to ship products.

So far the Fox Engine has shown that it actually works and games can be made on them. Panta Rhei and Luminous Engine not so much.

I agree with you, but i was suggesting that perhaps Koji production went for something less ambitious, that however paid off in practicality, despite the less bombastic initial showing.
 
I agree with you, but i was suggesting that perhaps Koji production went for something less ambitious, that however paid off in practicality, despite the less bombastic initial showing.

Well, aren't GZ and TPP openworld and 60fps? They aren't going to push much with that aim. Oh and they're cross-gen. Meanwhile Deep Down is 30fps and based in dungeons and current gen only? That's going to push more.
 

duckroll

Member
I agree with you, but i was suggesting that perhaps Koji production went for something less ambitious, that however paid off in practicality, despite the less bombastic initial showing.

It doesn't seem less ambitious to me at all. They offer similar tech benefits, they're all built from ground up, and they're all aiming at photo real rendering and lighting. What exactly is it that the Luminous Engine or Panta Rhei supposedly does that the Fox Engine doesn't?

If you're talking about tech demos in particular, that's also a bad way of judging because Ground Zeroes ended up being -the- tech demo for Fox Engine - a fully playable wide open MGS demo which runs on four different systems across two generations. That's a much more practical and meaningful demonstration. Luminous Engine has a totally non-playable cutscene which looks really graphically impressive. That means jack shit for actual practical game development. It tells us nothing about the capability of the tools, the ease of use, or whether it's even able to deliver that same level of graphical ability with a game running. So what exactly are we comparing? If we're comparing with what FFXV looks like, then surprise, as mentioned in the OP, FFXV isn't even really running entirely on Luminious Engine, so however good it looks, it's clearly a matter of the development team putting more effort into the assets which currently run on something that isn't even the engine in question. :)
 

Haunted

Member
Megapublishers developing their own engines is not a new trend for this generation, but it looks like S-E fucked theirs up. From the impressive early shots to worryingly long development cycles and radio silence, complete with corporate shakeups in related positions. Clearly, something's gone wrong along the way... seems like that's almost standard for S-E these days. >_>
 

UrbanRats

Member
When i say "ambitious" i mean in terms of how their tech demos looked (or seemed to promise aesthetically) when shown.
Both Deep Down's original trailer and Agni's, looked far more impressive to me than anything from the Fox Engine, yet they very quickly had to tone down the graphics for Deep Down, and we have yet to see anything out of the Luminous (not considering hybrids).
So what i'm saying is, they showed more graphically impressive tech demos than anything Fox Engine did, but when it came to actually apply that to anything practical, they seem to have had much more troubles.

So yeah, i'm not disputing the fact that Fox Engine is a better engine, i'm saying they seemed to be aiming higher with their target renders, and probably bit off more than they could chew.

All that said, it's all a lot of speculation, so i'm not gonna comment on how good or not the tools are etc.
 
But weren't what Kojipro showed at last year's GDC working builds of the game? When they already had the target of cross-gen, openworld and 60fps? Of course it's not going to be "ambitious". However it was at least concrete and working, unlike techdemos. I'd consider it a much better sign then some fancy showings lol Kojipro had their target in much better mind than the other two.
 

duckroll

Member
Yeah I'll definitely say the tech demos for Panta Rhei and Luminous are more "ambitious", but at the same time I think it doesn't mean jack shit. What's the point of pouring tons of time and money into a non-interactive tech demo if it means nothing for the engine or for any of the games which will be in actual development?
 
Wait the luminous engine tech demo was pre rendered? They claimed high and low that it was running at 60 fps with 4xmsaa on a gtx 680 at the time, there were videos of them manipulating the camera in the tech demo environment too afterwards.

If ff15 isnt using the engine that would explain a lot, it looks nothing like the agnis philosophy demo graphically.

Anyhow this seems like it's crystal tools 2.0
 

UrbanRats

Member
Yeah I'll definitely say the tech demos for Panta Rhei and Luminous are more "ambitious", but at the same time I think it doesn't mean jack shit. What's the point of pouring tons of time and money into a non-interactive tech demo if it means nothing for the engine or for any of the games which will be in actual development?

I'm not even sure what's the point of making such a public display for an engine you're not going to license, but i guess an engine is sort of a prestige/brand at this point, which would explain the desire to make bombastic tech demos, even though you can't deliver on them.
Maybe they hoped to be able to sort out those problems sooner than expected.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I think what gave me the most confidence with Fox Engine was they said the first and number one thing they worked on was the efficiency of making a game instead of building the shiniest rendering toolset and worrying about dev tools second.

UE4 and other middleware options also took that philosophy and are delivering great visuals by the time they are actually playable, yet also are able to have games made on them already.

The point of an engine should always be amazingly efficient game development that can realize your project goals.

I think making a Luminous in tandem with a tech demo instead of a game was a mistake they're still paying for, since it means they discover the development bottle necks and incompatibilities way later in the process.
 

jett

D-Member
The technology team at Squeenix seems to be straight shit.

That's now two disasters of an engine that amounted to jack.
 

SerTapTap

Member
I'm kind of surprised massive bombastic proprietary engines are still all the rage with some companies. The duplication of effort seems absurd, especially if you're not shipping games left and right like Fox Engine seems to these days.
 

Durante

Member
Agni's was extremely impressive, and since one of the first things they showed for it was tight tools integration I thought they were finally on the right track with their engine tech (which is high quality visuals and enabling good productivity).

While I generally prefer having lots of diverse engines out there, I can't help but think they might really be better off just building everything on UE4 from here on out.
 

dramatis

Member
I think this and Shinra technologies shows that the top management at SE doesn't understand that they don't have the resources to be a middleware/IDE player. The major players in Engines have become very sophisticated and the recent trend goes to the engine itself being a App Store like platform. Square Enix seems do do nothing of the sort.
They pour millions into R&D and asset creation for what seems to be vaporware when they should be licensing tech, create some specific shader models to change the look to something unique and let their art team handle the rest. They would do better in augmenting and selling tech for UE4.
Square wasn't aiming to become a middleware developer. The objective of Crystal Tools was the same as EA DICE's Frostbite Engine and Ubisoft's Anvil Engine, which is to create a proprietary engine for Square Enix to use internally for multiple games without relying on licensed engines. Luminous Engine adjusts that objective to "multiple games for multiple platforms", given that Crystal Tools originally aimed mostly for PS3.

I think the reasons for the failure of Crystal Tools are different from the reasons Luminous Engine is MIA currently.
 

Philippo

Member
Well we know Luminous is being (partially or totally) used for FFXIV, FFXV, KHIII and surely FFXVI.
And if insiders, rumors and speculations are to be believed FFVIIR and DQXI too.
So it doesn't seem such a bad situation, better than Crystal Tools for sure.
 

Asd202

Member
Well we know Luminous is being (partially or totally) used for FFXIV, FFXV, KHIII and surely FFXVI.
And if insiders, rumors and speculations are to be believed FFVIIR and DQXI too.
So it doesn't seem such a bad situation, better than Crystal Tools for sure.

It's been years since it's showing and it's still being only used partially. Certainly this is not how it was supposed to be.
 
Wait the luminous engine tech demo was pre rendered? They claimed high and low that it was running at 60 fps with 4xmsaa on a gtx 680 at the time, there were videos of them manipulating the camera in the tech demo environment too afterwards.

If ff15 isnt using the engine that would explain a lot, it looks nothing like the agnis philosophy demo graphically.

Anyhow this seems like it's crystal tools 2.0

No, the tech demo was obviously real time, but it was just that, a tech demo. Personally, I think the current build of FFXV looks much more like the tech demo than it did last year. Visually, it looks really impressive now.
 
Maybe we will see it once they announce something that isnt a remaster (Type 0 HD) or old gen game ported up to next gen and prettied up (FFXV)
 

Renekton

Member
Is Luminous a full-blown engine + toolchain like Crystal Tools?

Sometimes they are all blurred together it's hard to tell.

The technology team at Squeenix seems to be straight shit.

That's now two disasters of an engine that amounted to jack.
Let's be fair though, it's an insanely huge task to make a cutting-edge multiplatform game engine + tools.
 
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