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Greek elections Jan 25th 2015 - SYRIZA on course for historic victory

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P

p3tran

Banned
...and the first bomb (of stupid?) appears to just have been dropped!

Bullet_74140b_1962450.gif


supposedly a few hours ago a country-wide government order was issued, asking for all illegal immigrants to be immediately released (!!), countrywide. even at the borders.
even more unbelievable than this, is a statement that just started to circulate the internet, supposedly signed by the president of the "Panhellenic Federation Border Guards", saying that he got instructions that "even in the case that they discover by accident people trying to illegally enter the country", they are not to be detained. only their details to be written down (wtf?) and immediately given a travel warrant good for six months, and let them go wherever they want.
oh, and all the detention centers for illegal immigrants, they are to be shut down country-wide too.

now, I dont know if this is to happen starting tomorrow morning as it is suggested, I am not even sure in the 100% validity of this claim at all, but as I said local internet has just picked it up, and on one mainstream tv news prog. it was just mentioned near the very end of the bulletin. so right now it looks it has a ..good(?) chance it is legit.


this is the news site that claims that they spoke with the president of border guards that he confirmed it:
http://www.lifo.gr/now/greece/61881
(poor google translation: https://translate.google.com/transl...w.lifo.gr/now/greece/61881&edit-text=&act=url)


if true... the consequences for this....
anybody just crosses the border and is legit. we write down whatever the hell they tell us to write, and we issue travel papers based on this info. then we let go. wtf?
a) the role of the embassies we have all over the word is zeroed immediately. why bother when you can just ..walk in? the loss of control (very far from perfect or even good control there was) is unfathomable.
b) the medical horror.... anybody just walks in, might as well have whatever illness or widespread disease, epidemic, the whole book. document says nothing about medical exams - a thing which would be practically 100% impossible anyway.
c) the center of Athens... that poor city... I cant even imagine how the places of central athens that are already packed to the brim with legal/illegal immigrants will even look after six months of said order.
then of course, I wont even think about the potential increase in (already huge) criminality, or cases of malicious people trying to find a way to enter Greece/Europe. etc.

if this is true, we practically just invited all the scum/wanted/criminal on the run/criminal for career/etc for a free fucking meal, and all-inclusive too.

----
and by the time I was typing the above, I already found the official site for the panhellenic border guard, and apparently the story the news site above runs, its verified here:
http://www.posyfy.gr/index.php?opti...-03-03-18-03-00&catid=100:2011-10-26-07-21-01
googletrans: https://translate.google.com/transl...3-00&catid=100:2011-10-26-07-21-01&edit-text=


*edit:
seems debunked by announcement of ..."Deputy Minister of Citizen Protection" on mainstream media 10 mins ago:
http://news.in.gr/greece/article/?aid=1231389857
(google trans) https://translate.google.com/transl....gr/greece/article/?aid=1231389857&edit-text=

well, reading carefully, he doesnt say that this order was not issued, or that the Panhellenic captain of border guard is lying, he basically claims that neither him, nor the interior affairs minister, nor the other deputy minister have issued it.
he doesnt say this order does not exist. very strangely, he offers as an excuse that "...I might think some Brigadier may have issued this order, as the 'judges' (the part where the political power decides who rises and who leaves from the army higher-ups) are not started yet" (suggesting said brigadiers have become ..impatient?? and may issue such orders? does not compute too well)
anyway, more on this when there are.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Guardian, as usual
Quick, act surprised.

Spain’s economy minister is happily wading in on the Greek debate again today after getting in to a bit of hot water earlier in the week.

Luis de Guindos is sticking to his guns, repeating his comment that Greece will need a third rescue in the region of €30-50bn.

De Guindos told a conference in Barcelona that Europe would use the four-month bailout extension secured by Greece to assess what progress has been made, and what the next move should be.

We have given ourselves these four months to one, see what the real situation is, to see how Greece has met conditions and to try and establish what happens next ... which is fundamentally a third rescue.

He added that ministers at next week’s eurogroup meeting would consider Greece’s liquidity needs and debt maturities.

De Guindos comment earlier in the week that the eurozone was working on a third rescue package for Greece ruffled a few feathers.

In response, a spokeswoman for eurogroup chief Jeroen Dijsselbloem insisted that finance ministers were not discussing a third bailout.
Click to expand...

God damn it, man, at least pretend along with us that doing exactly what we always did will result in different results this time.
 
I

ICKE

Banned
He is obviously an idiot for making such comments but on the other hand European countries should find better solutions to the on-going refugee crisis in countries like Italy and Greece. Too many people are dying as they try to cross the Mediterranean Sea. The smugglers who throw pregnant women and children overboard into the sea are such scum I don't even have words for them.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Tsipras calling Spain and Portugal "the Axis"? Someone get this man a copy of Wolfenstein: The New Order already so he can play out his fantasies without them bleeding into real life.

Also, this was actually fucking said?

Kammenos, who is a member of the Greek government's junior coalition party Independent Greeks, said that "If Europe leaves us in the crisis, we will flood it with migrants, and even worse for Berlin if in that wave of millions of economic migrants there will be some jihadis of the Islamic State too," according to the Italian newspaper La Repubblica.
Click to expand...

This cocaine makes me feel like I'm a 2015 Greek government official.
 
J

Joni

Member
So we just need to start checking planes from Greece again? Can't be as expensive as giving millions to Greece. This type of threat is difficult if you don't share borders with the rest of the shengen area.
 
P

p3tran

Banned
GermanGAF, was there a interview of greek minister of foreign affairs (n. kotzias) recently given especially to german media?

greek reports seem to say so, and they also report that he officially asked for what the greek people have been asking for years, that is for the german government to give to the greek government all the names and bank accounts -and even expedite criminals for crimes against the greek public wealth- that german companies have been using to bribe greeks.
we are talking about the greatest corruption schemes ever happened in Greece.
and a great big part of the economic situation.
many greek people that were responsible/middlemen for them, they live in safe asylum provided by germany, not getting expedited, not even giving the testimonies they gave to german justice.

he even gives examples by name in these reports I am reading, saying that while we are all against corruption and crimes of corruption, the situation where germany pushes greece with pseudo-ethical exhortations while at the same time germany hides these big-time crooks, well, thats something..

he also reportedly said many other things too, so, has this been a subject in german press? like, at all?
 
N

Nivash

Member
Jesus Christ, using illegal immigrants as the nuclear option. I actually agree with their stance to shut down the detention centers: those things are an outrage. Treating asylum seekers as criminals (because yes, you're an asylum seekers even if you crossed the border "illegally" as far as human rights go) and locking them up without a trial is indefensible.

But holy shit at giving anyone who asks for it a Schengen visa? That has got to be so illegal it's barely imaginable. The Schengen agreement gives citizen and permanent residents of the EU member states the right of free travel within the union and there are steps to be followed for those who aren't, you can't just hand them out like candy to people that are neither of those things. If Greece does that they go against one of the cornerstones of the union. Forget the Eurozonen, they'd find themselves booted out from the union and treated like a rogue state before they even realise what just happened.
 
M

MonorailCat

Member
p3tran said:
GermanGAF, was there a interview of greek minister of foreign affairs (n. kotzias) recently given especially to german media?

he also reportedly said many other things too, so, has this been a subject in german press? like, at all?
Click to expand...

nope, haven't seen anything about that.
It's the usual "Greece needs more money" articles interspersed with the recent stuff about war reparations again and the migration threat.
 
F

Frankfurter

Member
p3tran said:
GermanGAF, was there a interview of greek minister of foreign affairs (n. kotzias) recently given especially to german media?

greek reports seem to say so, and they also report that he officially asked for what the greek people have been asking for years, that is for the german government to give to the greek government all the names and bank accounts -and even expedite criminals for crimes against the greek public wealth- that german companies have been using to bribe greeks.
we are talking about the greatest corruption schemes ever happened in Greece.
and a great big part of the economic situation.
many greek people that were responsible/middlemen for them, they live in safe asylum provided by germany, not getting expedited, not even giving the testimonies they gave to german justice.

he even gives examples by name in these reports I am reading, saying that while we are all against corruption and crimes of corruption, the situation where germany pushes greece with pseudo-ethical exhortations while at the same time germany hides these big-time crooks, well, thats something..

he also reportedly said many other things too, so, has this been a subject in german press? like, at all?
Click to expand...


He gave an interview to German press (the public broadcasters ARD and ZDF) on March 7, but apparently the interview was only about the sanctions against Russia.

It's this one: http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/interview-kotzias-101.html

Aside that... why would Germany hide these people? And why they give testimonies in Germany and then these wouldn't be used?
I'm not too much into the subject, but that's the first time I hear that Germany is hiding Greek criminals.
 
P

p3tran

Banned
Nivash said:
Jesus Christ, using illegal immigrants as the nuclear option. I actually agree with their stance to shut down the detention centers: those things are an outrage. Treating asylum seekers as criminals (because yes, you're an asylum seekers even if you crossed the border "illegally" as far as human rights go) and locking them up without a trial is indefensible.

But holy shit at giving anyone who asks for it Schengen papers? That has got to be so illegal it's barely imaginable. The Schengen agreement gives citizen and permanent residents of the EU member states the right of free travel within the union, you can't just hand them out like candy to people that are neither of those things. If Greece does that they go against one of the cornerstones of the union. Forget the Eurozonen, they'd find themselves booted out from the union and treated like a rogue state before they even realise what just happened.
Click to expand...

so, what are you suggesting? that Greece remains as european fence AND storage against all immigrants, in reality a european dumpster, that on top it sure looks like the rest of the europe seems to not have even the slightest interest to take care of, only to impose more debt on it?

if shit hits the fan with the eurozone, greeks must/ or I hope that they will do the handful of things that they can do to improve their (recently lost) quality of life.
one of them things, is for the millions of illegal immigrants that we keep here as ghost-people, within our cities, illegal, to let them go where they initially wanted to go. and that, in 95% of the cases is not Greece.
but we keep them here, in an illegal form, forbidding them to travel to their destination, and causing problems to our society -as we have far left the point where we had to offer from our surplus or our leftovers to other people for humanitarian purposes.
and for what, may I ask?
 
F

Frankfurter

Member
p3tran said:
so, what are you suggesting? that Greece remains as european fence AND storage against all immigrants, in reality a european dumpster, that on top it sure looks like the rest of the europe seems to not have even the slightest interest to take care of, only to impose more debt on it?

if shit hits the fan with the eurozone, greeks must/ or I hope that they will do the handful of things that they can do to improve their (recently lost) quality of life.
one of them things, is for the millions of illegal immigrants that we keep here as ghost-people, within our cities, illegal, to let them go where they initially wanted to go. and that, in 95% of the cases is not Greece.
but we keep them here, in an illegal form, forbidding them to travel to their destination, and causing problems to our society -as we have far left the point where we had to offer from our surplus or our leftovers to other people for humanitarian purposes.
and for what, may I ask?
Click to expand...


Send the illegals back to where they came from maybe? Not saying that's the ideal solution, but it seems just a tad more reasonable than giving them false passports and sending them whereever they wanna go.
 
R

Reuenthal

Banned
Frankfurter said:
Send the illegals back to where they came from maybe? Not saying that's the ideal solution, but it seems just a tad more reasonable than giving them false passports and sending them whereever they wanna go.
Click to expand...

In Greece case they usually come from Turkey which doesn't accept any illegals back. So this isn't not only ideal but any solution at all.
 
P

p3tran

Banned
Frankfurter said:
He gave an interview to German press (the public broadcasters ARD and ZDF) on March 7, but apparently the interview was only about the sanctions against Russia.

It's this one: http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/interview-kotzias-101.html

Aside that... why would Germany hide these people? And why they give testimonies in Germany and then these wouldn't be used?
I'm not too much into the subject, but that's the first time I hear that Germany is hiding Greek criminals.
Click to expand...


local news have today's date (so it kinda fits), and I guess there should be some headlines if german press wanted to, because here it appears that the greek minister made some bold statements, that previous puppet governments never dared to.
reading some local reports, it even seems that he called out some of the german press for stuff like trying to wrongly shape the public opinion, example that germany LOSES with the greek crisis, while the reality is that germany directly and indirectly has profited over 80 billion euro from this hostile takeover the last years.
-reportedly- he goes even further, saying that german press tries too much with misinformation, bringing up the recent example where many of the german press had titles like "not a cent for greece", while the reality was that the last negotiation had nothing to do with money/funding at all. etc.
now, these things are being reported here as being officially said, but i dont know what happened over there, thats why I ask.



now, on the other thing...
why would they -germany- hide those criminals you mean?
like, why hide and even provide police security and police escort to condemned criminals, crooks that even passed through the german justice system and were condemned guilty?
guilty of crimes like bribing politicians while acting on behalf of a multibillion multinational company, that, you guessed it, maliciously and through bribing the entire fuckin' system bought greek public property, infrastructure, services and even took all the big accounts for big public works? yes, those that created those huge debts to be paid, and the consequent loans...

now, why would germany hide those people?
why would they hide their bank accounts?
why would they not expedite them to the country in which they committed all those crimes on, and against that countrys public sector and society?

well, that's a good question for my german friends...

but -if you find that it actually is like that- it sure looks like dat european solidarity works better for crooks/multibillion companies that for legitimate citizens or even governments, doesnt it?


I could write a few paragraphs describing whats really going on, but I prefer not to.
but if anyone wants to research on it, maybe I can throw some starting tips.

edit:
Frankfurter said:
Send the illegals back to where they came from maybe? Not saying that's the ideal solution, but it seems just a tad more reasonable than giving them false passports and sending them whereever they wanna go.
Click to expand...
so, send the refugees that come to escape from warzones (or so they say), back to their warzone of origin? first, I am not sure how correct this is, and second, I am sure we are bound by the things we have signed that we cannot do that (let alone we dont have the resources for it)
 
N

Nivash

Member
p3tran said:
so, what are you suggesting? that Greece remains as european fence AND storage against all immigrants, in reality a european dumpster, that on top it sure looks like the rest of the europe seems to not have even the slightest interest to take care of, only to impose more debt on it?

if shit hits the fan with the eurozone, greeks must/ or I hope that they will do the handful of things that they can do to improve their (recently lost) quality of life.
one of them things, is for the millions of illegal immigrants that we keep here as ghost-people, within our cities, illegal, to let them go where they initially wanted to go. and that, in 95% of the cases is not Greece.
but we keep them here, in an illegal form, forbidding them to travel to their destination, and causing problems to our society -as we have far left the point where we had to offer from our surplus or our leftovers to other people for humanitarian purposes.
and for what, may I ask?
Click to expand...

Deal with it the right way: initiate an investigation to determine if they qualify for asylum and, if they don't, deny them residency and expel them. You don't have to keep them in concentration camps to do that. And how exactly do you prevent them from travelling to other countries anyway? We don't have any border controls. They could just take a train, hitch-hike or well hike on foot to get wherever they want. And they evidently do, we have illegal immigrants up here in northern Europe too. Unless the concentration camps are supposed to prevent them from moving on.

But what your defense minister suggests goes way, way beyond that. He's suggesting that Greece hand out Schengen Visas which would turn them into legal immigrants and then point them at Berlin. That flies in the face of the Schengen agreement in such a fundamental way that the EU would have no choice but to declare Greek Schengen Visas invalid and essentially expel them.

If you're asking what we should do in the long term, a unified EU asylum system would be best, similar to how the UN quota system works. I agree that it's not sustainable for our Mediterranean members to receive such a disproportionate amount of desperate asylum seekers. But we'll never get there if EU politicians wield immigrants as some kind of weapon to coerce other members to do as they want.
 
P

p3tran

Banned
Nivash said:
Deal with it the right way: initiate an investigation to determine if they qualify for asylum and, if they don't, deny them residency and expel them. You don't have to keep them in concentration camps to do that. And how exactly do you prevent them from travelling to other countries anyway? We don't have any border controls. They could just take a train, hitch-hike or well hike on foot to get wherever they want. And they evidently do, we have illegal immigrants up here in northern Europe too. Unless the concentration camps are supposed to prevent them from moving on.
Click to expand...

well, thats one thing.
we have signed treaties that really say that when an illegal immigrant is CAUGHT SOMEWHERE IN EUROPE, HE IMMEDIATELY IS RETURNED TO THE EUROPEAN COUNTRY THAT HE INITIALLY ENTERED, aka greece.
 
N

Nivash

Member
p3tran said:
well, thats one thing.
we have signed treaties that really say that when an illegal immigrant is CAUGHT SOMEWHERE IN EUROPE, HE IMMEDIATELY IS RETURNED TO THE EUROPEAN COUNTRY THAT HE INITIALLY ENTERED, aka greece.
Click to expand...

Which is precisely my point. Push for immigration reform. Your're more or less guaranteed to get the support of all of southern Europe, France and probably a few of the northern European members. Don't go for some pants-on-head moronic threat that would have you booted out of the Schengen area and forced to deal with illegal immigrants anyway.
 
P

p3tran

Banned
Nivash said:
Which is precisely my point. Push for immigration reform. Your're more or less guaranteed to get the support of all of southern Europe, France and probably a few of the northern European members. Don't go for some pants-on-head moronic threat that would have you booted out of the Schengen area and forced to deal with illegal immigrants anyway.
Click to expand...

unfortunately my friend I see no solidarity or support.
I just see companies and organizations that use countries as vessels.
you cant really offer solidarity on one thing, while you are killing me on the other.
so, nice words these are, support, fairness, solidarity, but no real meaning.


you know, bullshit aside, over here we have over 60% of the youth unemployed, sitting like zombies.
it doesnt take a genius to think forward and realize what will those young people think and do about the "europe of solidarity" as every day goes by.
its ok that normal people dont think about this. not expected either, as modern life leaves usually little space to freely wonder/investigate.
but those who call the shots, trust me they do know. and they do it. as planned.
 
F

Frankfurter

Member
p3tran said:
local news have today's date (so it kinda fits), and I guess there should be some headlines if german press wanted to, because here it appears that the greek minister made some bold statements, that previous puppet governments never dared to.
reading some local reports, it even seems that he called out some of the german press for stuff like trying to wrongly shape the public opinion, example that germany LOSES with the greek crisis, while the reality is that germany directly and indirectly has profited over 80 billion euro from this hostile takeover the last years.
-reportedly- he goes even further, saying that german press tries too much with misinformation, bringing up the recent example where many of the german press had titles like "not a cent for greece", while the reality was that the last negotiation had nothing to do with money/funding at all. etc.
now, these things are being reported here as being officially said, but i dont know what happened over there, thats why I ask.



now, on the other thing...
why would they -germany- hide those criminals you mean?
like, why hide and even provide police security and police escort to condemned criminals, crooks that even passed through the german justice system and were condemned guilty?
guilty of crimes like bribing politicians while acting on behalf of a multibillion multinational company, that, you guessed it, maliciously and through bribing the entire fuckin' system bought greek public property, infrastructure, services and even took all the big accounts for big public works? yes, those that created those huge debts to be paid, and the consequent loans...

now, why would germany hide those people?
why would they hide their bank accounts?
why would they not expedite them to the country in which they committed all those crimes on, and against that countrys public sector and society?

well, that's a good question for my german friends...

but -if you find that it actually is like that- it sure looks like dat european solidarity works better for crooks/multibillion companies that for legitimate citizens or even governments, doesnt it?


I could write a few paragraphs describing whats really going on, but I prefer not to.
but if anyone wants to research on it, maybe I can throw some starting tips.
Click to expand...


Feel free to provide links to any news that cover the topic (English please, I don't understand Greek). So far I haven't seen any indication that Kotzias said anything like that stuff in an interview.
In terms of Germany hiding those Greek guys: don't get me wrong, but that's some insane level of bullshit.


so, send the refugees that come to escape from warzones (or so they say), back to their warzone of origin? first, I am not sure how correct this is, and second, I am sure we are bound by the things we have signed that we cannot do that (let alone we dont have the resources for it)
Click to expand...


This is not about legal asylum seekers, which are subsequently granted asylum (in various countries of the EU, not just in Greece). It's about people that come to Europe illegally and will therefore not get asylum or the right to stay anyway.
 
P

p3tran

Banned
Frankfurter said:
In terms of Germany hiding those Greek guys: don't get me wrong, but that's some insane level of bullshit.
Click to expand...
as I said, I might be able to provide a starting point.. I will only say about one company, but I have lots more.
so, primary keys for search: tsoukatos, christoforakos, and *bonus* a german that killed himself (or thats how it was presented, in same cases in greece usually its ...assisted suicide) the very next morning after varoufakis and schauble had their -now legendary- first ever official chat, neuburger.

protip: for better results, I would avoid using as a sole resource for my queries the same resources that did not report what the greek minister told the press during the w/e
 
F

Frankfurter

Member
p3tran said:
as I said, I might be able to provide a starting point.. I will only say about one company, but I have lots more.
so, primary keys for search: tsoukatos, christoforakos, and *bonus* a german that killed himself (or thats how it was presented, in same cases in greece usually its ...assisted suicide) the very next morning after varoufakis and schauble had their -now legendary- first ever official chat, neurburger.

protip: for better results, I would avoid using as a sole resource for my queries the same resources that did not report what the greek minister told the press during the w/e
Click to expand...


Again: feel free to provide links to websites. I won't go on a hunt for conspiracy theories that defy any kind of common sense on my own.

I'm btw. not entirely sure how a convicted criminal (of bribing) that subsequently commited suicide (there is no indication at all that anything else happened there) is gonna help your case. The fact Neubürger was convicted and had to pay a huge fine is like 100% opposite of your proposition that Germany hides Greek criminals (why would it hide Greek criminals, but convict German ones!?).
 
P

p3tran

Banned
Frankfurter said:
Again: feel free to provide links to websites. I won't go on a hunt for conspiracy theories that defy any kind of common sense on my own.

I'm btw. not entirely sure how a convicted criminal (of bribing) that subsequently commited suicide (there is no indication at all that anything else happened there) is gonna help your case. The fact Neubürger was convicted and had to pay a huge fine is like 100% opposite of your proposition that Germany hides Greek criminals (why would it hide Greek criminals, but convict German ones!?).
Click to expand...

neuburger was not convicted. was not greek either. either do the research, or continue to believe the propaganda that is served to you daily.
no conspiracy <<theories>> from my part. I could even give you the number of the german court order if I wanted to.
but its not my job to do that. I've given more than enough. if you are legitimate and you care, you do the required work.
then, if you reach a good point in your investigation, I will gladly help you fill in some blanks you will surely have.

edit:
Frankfurter said:
This is not about legal asylum seekers, which are subsequently granted asylum (in various countries of the EU, not just in Greece). It's about people that come to Europe illegally and will therefore not get asylum or the right to stay anyway.
Click to expand...
I see a little disconnection with reality here...
you know, all illegal immigrants, they cross the border without papers, and if/when they get caught, ehmmm... guess what do they declare? yeap, war refugees from wherever there are ongoing fights at the moment.
oh, and all of them, underage too. doesnt matter if they look older than me. you search on that too.





on other news, today also is given to publicity that former minister of economy was taking his money out of the country, exactly at the same time he was imposing the dreadful economic laws and taxation.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Tsipras calling Spain and Portugal "the Axis"? Someone get this man a copy of Wolfenstein: The New Order already so he can play out his fantasies without them bleeding into real life.
Click to expand...

'In the last rounds of discussion before the provisional deal was settled, there were reports that Spain and Portugal tried to scuttle the deal and were cockblocked, so it's probably related to that.

That was a report from SkaiTV, so whatever.
 
F

Frankfurter

Member
p3tran said:
neuburger was not convicted. was not greek either. either do the research, or continue to believe the propaganda that is served to you daily.
no conspiracy <<theories>> from my part. I could even give you the number of the german court order if I wanted to.
but its not my job to do that. I've given more than enough. if you are legitimate and you care, you do the required work.
then, if you reach a good point in your investigation, I will gladly help you fill in some blanks you will surely have.
Click to expand...


Neubürger WAS convicted*. He chose to appeal, which resulted in his case not being final yet. I didn't claim he was Greek. I said that Germans were convicted (i.e. him), so why would Germany hide Greeks.

Feel free to give me that court order.

If you don't wanna do that and if you feel like others should try to find some stuff that you believe is the truth... fine, find someone else willing to do so.

I'm out.



* Feel free to check this link: http://openjur.de/u/682814.html
Verdict + reasoning + fine
You will find the respective Aktenzeichen of the court in various articles, including this one: http://www.wkdis.de/aktuelles/rechtsnews/291420

(Very) Short: Mit dem Urteil vom 10.12.2013 (Az.: 5HK O 1387/10) hat das LG München I den Ex-Finanzvorstand der Siemens AG, Hans-Joachim Neubürger, zu einer Schadensersatzzahlung in Höhe von 15 Mio &#8364; verurteilt.
-> Google translate: With the judgment of 10.12.2013 (Ref .: 5HK O 1387/10) LG München I has sentenced the former CFO of Siemens AG, Hans-Joachim new citizens [sic!] to pay restitution in the amount of &#8364; 15 million.
 
P

p3tran

Banned
was free when he got dead, right? was not held in a prison, and I believe never was?

who named him? is that a greek guy that named him? and that greek guy worked also for who? and why is that greek guy living in germany under german protection, instead of him being expedited to greece and answer for the crimes he did for the benefit of said german multinationals? what about his confession, or his bank accounts? aren't we greeks even entitled to that? its OUR property lost, and OUR billions paid.
you know we had an initial estimation of damages caused that was in the tens of billions. on that particular case alone.
and -according to your link- was the german guy sentenced to pay ...15 million for these crimes? LOL and to german court? LOL and live free?

and you think this is justice? am I supposed to continue this discussion on these terms?
 
N

Nivash

Member
p3tran said:
was free when he got dead, right? was not held in a prison, and I believe never was?

who named him? is that a greek guy that named him? and that greek guy worked also for who? and why is that greek guy living in germany under german protection, instead of him being expedited to greece and answer for the crimes he did for the benefit of said german multinationals? what about his confession, or his bank accounts? aren't we greeks even entitled to that? its OUR property lost, and OUR billions paid.
you know we had an initial estimation of damages caused that was in the tenths of billions. on that particular case alone.
and -according to your link- was the german guy sentenced to pay 15 million for these crimes? and to german court? and live free?

and you think this is justice? am I supposed to continue this discussion on these terms?
Click to expand...

...what? Do you even know how the German justice system works? Of course he wasn't in jail yet, he appealed. You can't execute someone's sentence before they've exhausted their right to appeal it. So of course he wasn't in prison. That's the way it works in most countries as far as I know. Surely Greece isn't any different?

EDIT: Oh wait, he wasn't even sentenced to prison in the first place. Which isn't exactly surprising if the crime was economical.
 
X

Xando

Member
Frankfurter said:
Greece's defence minister is threatening to 'flood Europe with migrants'

http://uk.businessinsider.com/panos-kammenos-threatens-to-flood-europe-with-migrants-2015-3?r=US


Would be great to have a day without moronic stuff coming from atleast one representative of the Greek government :/
Click to expand...

With this and Varoufakis threatening a referendum the Greek government is starting to look like a comedy club.
They should start to take this more seriously or Greek people will pay even more.
 
P

p3tran

Banned
Nivash said:
.

EDIT: Oh wait, he wasn't even sentenced to prison in the first place. Which isn't exactly surprising if the crime was economical.
Click to expand...

I guess it must be cool to have a guy in your company/country with orders to spend money to buy off the government of another country, its opposition in parliament and the justice/legal system,
so that systematically he gets ownership of public wealth on said country.
and before that, all public contracts, in prices that he sets.

why the fuck bother the man, right? after all, he kind of confessed (not in greece where he should, where he commited all these crimes), and its just ...some economical crime.

and economical crimes are nothing related to what greece is going through, right?
especially those that cost tens of billions of euros...

plus, its kind of bad ass, dont you think?

why should germany expedite him? I mean, OFFICIALLY greek justice knows nothing of these things, only german justice, plus its much better and fair to ask greeks to borrow more money from them, giving away whatever else public wealth they have their eyes on...
its all about dat solidarity..


anyway, point is that as a Greek, am I happy that an official person, the minister of foreign affairs, FINALLY made an official statement about these things.
and of this greek government, I am a very harsh critic, and not very fond of. see previous pages/posts to witness yourselves.
the fact that you tell me that german press hushed everything except the eu veto, thats also telling for me. and little expected.
but all of you, my fellow people living in germany that think that your country officials are straight, maybe you should look into this. afterall, its not your fault that this happens. only by allowing to happen while you know, you are responsible.
so you know, choose blue pill/red pill etc ;)
 
P

p3tran

Banned
further on, about varoufakis, he made the stupid claims that he will raise money by......
creating a "task force" where people go through a ..quick training program, then are ...mounted with a camera and a recorder, and they are ...shipped to the ....greek islands,
to record evidence of greek ...tourist shops not giving ...receipts for the ..memorabilia the tourists buy.

and he comes up with this ...proposal, while everything I wrote above is where the real money is.
economic crime in greece happens at a higher level, and IF this is varoufakis plan to ...combat crime and corruption.... then I see his days in power numbered.
in fact, I bet he wont last much if/when the first case of a ..fake tourist with a state-fitted camera tries to pull this ...trick on the remaining open shops in greece...
and while everything else still goes..

edit
I guess I can find a link for this in english : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31780354
 
Vlodril

Vlodril

Member
p3tran said:
further on, about varoufakis, he made the stupid claims that he will raise money by......
creating a "task force" where people go through a ..quick training program, then are ...mounted with a camera and a recorder, and they are ...shipped to the ....greek islands,
to record evidence of greek ...tourist shops not giving ...receipts for the ..memorabilia the tourists buy.

and he comes up with this ...proposal, while everything I wrote above is where the real money is.
economic crime in greece happens at a higher level, and IF this is varoufakis plan to ...combat crime and corruption.... then I see his days in power numbered.
in fact, I bet he wont last much if/when the first case of a ..fake tourist with a state-fitted camera tries to pull this ...trick on the remaining open shops in greece...
and while everything else still goes..

edit
I guess I can find a link for this in english : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31780354
Click to expand...

i disagree with this notion that the corruption and stealing happens on the higher level only. most greeks have been complicit (as i said before) to not getting receipts (either to get a bit less on the bill of products and services or because the coffee shops etc dont cut any and people don't seem to care ,despite actually paying for the tax and having the owner of the shop pocket it). The greek islands are notorious for it ( i lived and worked in one for years).

It would be nice if the greek people accepted some responsibility for the shit that happens to us.

Unfortunately syriza has always been a proponent of den plirono (i dont pay) bullshit and now its biting them in the ass. Hell i remember the tax office going to an island and trying to arrest a bunch of folk on that issue and the whole island threatened to beat them. Syriza was ok with that too if i am not mistaken.

There needs to be a huge effort to get everyone to cut receipts and people actually demand them. Also to pay on the subways or buses where if one in twenty pays it will be a miracle now.

On the other hand a referendum is a great idea. I don't understand why perhaps one of the most democratic procedures a country can undertake is looked upon with such derision (funnily enough papandreou wanted to do that too and no one , the left included, agreed to it along with our europeans "partners" ,which are everything but).

Syriza coasted into the government on promises of achieving things and they very very carefully avoided to answer on how they would actually do those things. I am not sure if they lied in advanced cynically i am more of the option they were naive on how government and the europe in general works (logically lol).

They did get a large part of the greek people behind them though so tsipras should do everything in his power not to lose the trust of the people (who haven't trusted a government for quite a while). If it takes a referendum sure.

Ask the people do you want to stay in euro and do everything the partners tell us? Do you want to take a harder stance? do you want to leave? etc.

Last kamenos is an idiot. no doubt about it. thats what you get for not getting a majority and having to work with others (with limited options).

This is a rambling post i realise and all over the place. feel free to disregard.
 
X

Xando

Member
Coriolanus said:
How?
Click to expand...

By defaulting their country. Where is the food gonna come from if farmers don't get EU subventions? Food will be imported and expensive as shit. How are companies supposed to stay alive when they have to pay euro debt with drachma, you think 50% unemployement is bad? If greece defaults it's gonna be 70%.
Social programms will all die down, old people will get no pension, hospitals will close because they can't effort medicine, trash will lay around everywhere because there is no waste collection, public transportation and schools all close because no one gets payed.

If Greece defaults it will get a lot worse before it gets better, i didn't even mention that Greek banks will likely collapse because everyone tries to get their money in euro.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Xando said:
By defaulting their country. Where is the food gonna come from if farmers don't get EU subventions? Food will be imported and expensive as shit. How are companies supposed to stay alive when they have to pay euro debt with drachma, you think 50% unemployement is bad? If greece defaults it's gonna be 70%.
Social programms will all die down, old people will get no pension, hospitals will close because they can't effort medicine, trash will lay around everywhere because there is no waste collection, public transportation and schools all close because no one gets payed.
Click to expand...

Greece produces 94% of what they consume, as far as agriculture is concerned. They'll be fine.

International debt gets really messy after a default, and any local debt would be converted to drachma. Spiralling short term inflation (which would be extremely likely) would destroy local debt. Whereas deflation, which is ocurring in the eurozone, worsens it.

As for the social programs and pensions, that's already happening. Most of those threats were also argued about Iceland. They failed to become real.
Government would obviously never run out of money to pay pensions if it defaults.

They'd resume trading with Russia, though.

Xando said:
If Greece defaults it will get a lot worse before it gets better.
Click to expand...

So you're saying that the default has exactly the same tag line as austerity? o_ô
 
X

Xando

Member
Coriolanus said:
Greece produces 94% of what they consume, as far as agriculture is concerned. They'll be fine.
Click to expand...
Can't find any recent numbers but Greece (And Ireland) are the largest per capita beneficiaries from the CAP program. You better believe greek farmers will get financial problems if EU subsidies suddenly go away.

Coriolanus said:
As for the social programs and pensions, that's already happening. Most of those threats were also argued about Iceland. They failed to become real.
Government would obviously never run out of money to pay pensions if it defaults.
Click to expand...
That depends if Greece is well enough prepared should they default. Greek government doesn't really inspire much confidence that they would prepare well enough (like iceland did).
Coriolanus said:
So you're saying that the default has exactly the same tag line as austerity? o_ô
Click to expand...

Much worse.

But hey, Russia is gonna save Greece, right?


Btw. wasn't iceland a banking system default and not a state default?
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
Xando said:
Can't find any recent numbers but Greece (And Ireland) are the largest per capita beneficiaries from the CAP program. You better believe greek farmers will get financial problems if EU subsidies suddenly go away.
Click to expand...
All those financial problems suddenly disappear when Greece defaults and they can pay in Drachma again. As long as the internal market has faith in the new currency farmers won't have any real issue with losing subsidies if the government stands up to replace them.
 
P

p3tran

Banned
Coriolanus said:
Greece produces 94% of what they consume, as far as agriculture is concerned. They'll be fine.

International debt gets really messy after a default, and any local debt would be converted to drachma. Spiralling short term inflation (which would be extremely likely) would destroy local debt. Whereas deflation, which is ocurring in the eurozone, worsens it.

As for the social programs and pensions, that's already happening. Most of those threats were also argued about Iceland. They failed to become real.
Government would obviously never run out of money to pay pensions if it defaults.

They'd resume trading with Russia, though.



So you're saying that the default has exactly the same tag line as austerity? o_ô
Click to expand...
correct, I think anybody can come to the conclusion that for the person that is waiting to collect the debt money,
a default out of eurozone makes things for him much-much worse than a default inside eurozone. basic stuff. let alone a debt restructure being the infinitely better scenario for the debt collector.
these people know that (they are not fools) of course, yet they play these games with the media and the public opinion.
you know, I thought that only my (now proven) bought-off government of fools and traitors would play these misinformation games to keep their grip on political desk & power. but apparently its a global thing.
and the people? well, as we can see they just tune in everyday for the latest episode in the virtually produced roller coaster. (still that happens in about 50% of my people, today)
sometimes I really wonder about how far has humanity really progressed since the dark ages..
 
X

Xando

Member
Germany's Merkel narrowly avoided bigger revolt on Greece - sources
BERLIN (Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel narrowly averted a far bigger rebellion last month on Greece's bailout extension among her conservatives, many more of whom would have voted 'Nein' but for her finance minister's powers of persuasion, lawmakers said.

Germany's parliament voted on Feb. 27 to extend Greece's bailout by four months, but a record number of conservative dissenters were not convinced that Athens would deliver the economic reforms it has promised.

One senior conservative told Reuters that Merkel's Bavarian allies, the Christian Social Union (CSU), "would have unanimously voted 'No'" had Wolfgang Schaeuble not solicited support during a personal appearance two days before the vote.

Another leading conservative said Schaeuble's meeting with Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU) was equally important in securing their support at a time when confidence in the Greek government was "kaputt" in the lower house of parliament.

"The vote was hanging by a thread," the lawmaker said, on condition of anonymity.

Schaeuble is a leading advocate of the austerity measures that Greece's new left-wing government wants to scrap.

The lawmakers' comments point to a growing groundswell of discontent within conservative ranks and suggests there is a risk they would not be prepared to approve a third bailout for Greece if Athens asks for more help in future from its partners.

"The Greeks say 'We don't need a third bailout' - but they also said they wouldn't need this bailout extension," said the conservative lawmaker.

In the last vote, 29 of the 32 parliamentarians who voted against an extension for Greece came from Merkel's CDU and the CSU. In addition, 118 conservatives who voted "yes" gave personal statements signalling they would not keep toeing the party's current line unless there was a significant change.
Click to expand...
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN0M623920150310?irpc=932

Looks like rumors going around in german press are true and a lot of CDU/CSU MPs are done with greece especially after the farce Tsipras held in greek parlament today.
 
P

p3tran

Banned
Xando said:
Germany's Merkel narrowly avoided bigger revolt on Greece - sources
BERLIN (Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel narrowly averted a far bigger rebellion last month on Greece's bailout extension among her conservatives, many more of whom would have voted 'Nein' but for her finance minister's powers of persuasion, lawmakers said.

Germany's parliament voted on Feb. 27 to extend Greece's bailout by four months, but a record number of conservative dissenters were not convinced that Athens would deliver the economic reforms it has promised.

One senior conservative told Reuters that Merkel's Bavarian allies, the Christian Social Union (CSU), "would have unanimously voted 'No'" had Wolfgang Schaeuble not solicited support during a personal appearance two days before the vote.

Another leading conservative said Schaeuble's meeting with Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU) was equally important in securing their support at a time when confidence in the Greek government was "kaputt" in the lower house of parliament.

"The vote was hanging by a thread," the lawmaker said, on condition of anonymity.

Schaeuble is a leading advocate of the austerity measures that Greece's new left-wing government wants to scrap.

The lawmakers' comments point to a growing groundswell of discontent within conservative ranks and suggests there is a risk they would not be prepared to approve a third bailout for Greece if Athens asks for more help in future from its partners.

"The Greeks say 'We don't need a third bailout' - but they also said they wouldn't need this bailout extension," said the conservative lawmaker.

In the last vote, 29 of the 32 parliamentarians who voted against an extension for Greece came from Merkel's CDU and the CSU. In addition, 118 conservatives who voted "yes" gave personal statements signalling they would not keep toeing the party's current line unless there was a significant change.
Click to expand...
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN0M623920150310?irpc=932

Looks like rumors going around in german press are true and a lot of CDU/CSU MPs are done with greece especially after the farce Tsipras held in greek parlament today.
Click to expand...

"NO", "NEIN", "HANGING BY A THREAD", "KAPUT"

or, suck my propaganda!


hahaha, its not like I havent written about these things already, but isn't that propaganda off the charts?
and this propaganda, its not addressed to stupid greeks. unfortunately, as you can see it is 100% directed to stupid europeans other than greeks.

"HER SCHOIBLE VOUCHED FOR"!!! really?
since when does a person who was involved in big political scandals, briberies and foul plans has the authority to "VOUCH" in parliament? and for a country? let alone dictate the doom of said country...
I mean, even in greece, the corrupted country, we THROW OUT the politicians that we caught taking money.
it seems like in germany they instead became dictators, or at least, media-made-to-look-like-dictators.


because in case you forget, and local media fails to remind you, wasnt "her" schoible that dude back in helmut kole's era of political system, caught to take huge briberies from the bank and manufacture? hell, he even took bribes from arms dealers.
wasnt <<HER>> schoible addresing the public 15 years ago saying in public "oh I am sooo sorry that I took these bribes"? even worse, wasnt this the dude that said "ohhhh I am sorry I lied before when I said I did not take a bribe"? (so, both a liar and a traitor)
you know, it was at that same time when this political party was discovered to take all the money from corporations and banks, back when that political party's treasurer was found ...murdered (suicide again), and when the talk was -amongst other things- of how <<HER>> schoible was meeting arms dealers and taking suitcases of money for payments, so it was at that exact timeframe that the same things where happening in our political parties, those that we finally kicked out, did, and tsoukatos which I named in my posts above did exactly the same (suitcases with german bribery money).

difference is, we in greece kicked out those politicians, and that political party from 45% sits now at 4,5%
while you, my friends in germany have chosen that the rotten dudes rule you. and you call them "HER" and you obey.

thats cool and all, only we greeks dont have to obey, especially to sold-out "politicians"

(but because we had the same , rotten, sold-out "politicians", we DID obey "dat EU dictate" for 5 years, and we saw in front of our eyes the bad shit hit the fan. so fuck that, no more!)

here, a photograph from local newspapers at that time, and I think those that dont know of this and cant believe, google is your friend.
__0.jpg


this person to decide for the fate of my country? I dont think so.... Greeks may not be the most informed people on earth, but they are surely not THAT dumb when it comes to their survival..
germans who believe him? again, the choice is yours (blue pill / red pill)



EDIT:
and some good news (for greeks)
Greek government decided to STOP the selling (free giveaway in fact) of greek airports.

for those of you that dont know why the germans are barking, its because the greek government said "NEIN" to the wholesale giveaway of ....14 greek airports (places like mykonos included) to the german fraport.
can you understand that? the germans did ONE CONTRACT TO BUY NOT ONE, BUT 14 AIRPORTS (!!!)
GTFO!!

so yeah, we cancelled and fuck off schoible, thanks

what? you wont ...lend us more money to pay you the debt you created on us because of that? "we need to follow the memorandum (aka gift to fraport included, amongst other hideous things?)"? is that what you say?
well, guess what... ;)

so, bark away propaganda press, bark like a rabid dog! just let me get my popcorn



p.s.
looking forward to see if this government has the balls to also cancel the free gift of 30% of my country's energy units to crooks. (also described as our "obligation" in the memorandum)
I bet that if this happens, global propaganda is going to declare greek government a terrorist organization :D
 
M

MonorailCat

Member
The Greek Government now discusses the possibility to seize German property in Greece to get their Reparations.

What is going on over there?
 
P

p3tran

Banned
MonorailCat said:
The Greek Government now discusses the possibility to seize German property in Greece to get their Reparations.

What is going on over there?
Click to expand...

just propaganda.
unless by <<german property>>, you mean the Hellenic Telecommunications Agency (OTE), the sole owner of all telecommunications infrastructure, a publicly owned organization (and assets) that some multinational companies managed to ...steal from greek property by bribing a bunch of greek political scum. (see above, tsoukatos, christoforakos, neuberger etc)

in that case, I hope you are correct and this is really being considered.
but at the very least, if not "seize" it, at least take those traitor contracts and do a proper examination to assess the amount of damages to greek public.


or maybe you mean the athens international airport? another case where an important asset was given away for free to foreign multinationals under the same pressure.
you know what is the funny thing with this one? last time the greek pensions were cut, you know why? what was the thing that set off the troika's balance?
that company that got basically for free the athens international airport, DID NOT EVEN PAY THE TAXES and those amounted up to 600 million euro, and to close the balance sheet ...greek pensions were further cut by 370 million. by troika and eu brussels demand.
so, yeah, seize that too. not really unfair, is it?

or, of course, it could be the ...towels that my friend above mentions.........
 
X

Xando

Member
MonorailCat said:
The Greek Government now discusses the possibility to seize German property in Greece to get their Reparations.

What is going on over there?
Click to expand...
This is getting better everyday. As i said it's more of a comedy club than a government.
Germans should close the embassy in greece and cut all economic ties.
 
X

Xando

Member
tapantaola said:
Agreed.

Let's end this EU comedy once and for all.
Click to expand...

I have nothing against the EU, in fact i believe it is our future. I just can't think of any reason why i would want to live in a european state with people that have elected a government that is openly hostile to me and my fellow germans.
 
R

Reuenthal

Banned
Xando said:
I have nothing against the EU, in fact i believe it is our future. I just can't think of any reason why i would want to live in a european state with people that have elected a government that is openly hostile to me and my fellow germans.
Click to expand...

Yet you are openly hostile to Greeks to an absurd degree. I am not sure why you would expect anyone to not be hostile to you. It's also a bit rich to see a nationalist and highly xenophobic German whose solutions are comically stupid and reactionary to whine about other governments being dumbasses and a comedy club.
 
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