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Sony's outdated Trophy policies are affecting achievement parity with other platforms

drotahorror

drotahorror

Member
I think it's just misinformed Devs. A Galak Z dev posted smaller games couldn't have platinums. He then got a list of a few smaller games that do have them. He said he didn't know that.
 
H

hawk2025

Member
chubigans said:
There is no rule. You decide (as a dev) whether your game should have a small trophy set or large trophy set, and can use a number of different "guides" in determining which route to go. But it's not forced nor is it decided by anyone other than the devs.

Given this is done by higher ups, they may have accidentally thought their game was a smaller one and ended up with the smaller trophy package.
Click to expand...

Shining Sunshine said:
Well, I'm with Chubigans on this one. I've made trophy pack files, and it's as easy as flipping a switch from a plat game or a non-plat game.

I'm sure the devs wanted to, they can have their games have a platinum and Sony won't object.

The thing is that trophy bugs can easily fail your game at certification. If I had a choice with my games, I would make as few trophies as possible, and that's why Sony is giving the choice.
Click to expand...


Ahhh, interesting.

I suppose it makes sense, although at that point why don't they just switch all the basic trophies to Gold and are done with it?

People ask enough about a game having a Platinum trophy that I would think devs would try and make sure it does. I would guess that it can shift a decent little number of sales.
 
A

antitrop

Member
Let me have my Platinums, Sony!

Disappointing that something like Galak-Z was missing it.

Edit: Okay, so it is on the devastating, in that case it's in their best interest to prioritize Trophies from an early standpoint, as they are a serious value issue for long-term play.
 
Andrefpvs

Andrefpvs

Member
chubigans said:
I do remember hearing about having to "fight" for your chance at a Platinum back in the day, but it's definitely not like that anymore.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that info, I'll definitely add it to the OP!

I still think Platinums should just be standard, to avoid the situations you described (devs/pubs not knowing better, or just leaving achievements as an afterthought).
 
J

jf DOOM

Member
Whether it's a sec issue or a Sony issue its one that doesn't make any sense. i would have bought so many more games during the summer sale the last 2 weeks if they had platinums. They're leaving tons of money on the table.
 
G

Gren

Member
Shining Sunshine said:
Well, I'm with Chubigans on this one. I've made trophy pack files, and it's as easy as flipping a switch from a plat game or a non-plat game.

I'm sure the devs wanted to, they can have their games have a platinum and Sony won't object.

The thing is that trophy bugs can easily fail your game at certification. If I had a choice with my games, I would make as few trophies as possible, and that's why Sony is giving the choice.
Click to expand...

Never would have even considered that. For not caring too much about the subject matter, I'm glad I stopped by this thread. Thanks.
 
Jawmuncher

Jawmuncher

Member
If you don't have to "fight" for a platinum anymore, it begs the question why the smaller subset is even a option now.
 
T

Trigonometrize.

Member
Would requiring all games to have a plat be a good idea do you guys think? I think it would fix a lot of problems and cause few.

sciencerob said:
Wait... people are upset about trophies? They seem of very little importance to me tbh. Not sure why they should matter.
Click to expand...

They're fun for a lot of yet the meta system is broken so it's less fun and we'd like it to be more fun.
 
drotahorror

drotahorror

Member
H

Hades Hotgun

Banned
Tapejara said:
I'm not going to avoid buying a game without a platinum, but it is pretty disappointing when games don't have one. Especially with digital games moving into the $19.99 bracket; I was surprised when I saw Galak-Z didn't have one.



Is your wife logged into her account on PS4? Nearly every game I've played co-op has earned trophies for both players, even when the other player was set to Guest.
Click to expand...

We're always both logged in.

It only works for games that specifically support it, unlike 360 where it is standard.

Some immediate examples of prominent coop games where only 1st player gets trophies would be Resident Evil Revelations 2, LittleBigPlanet 3, and Lego Marvel Superheroes.
 
D

desmax

Member
Shining Sunshine said:
Well, I'm with Chubigans on this one. I've made trophy pack files, and it's as easy as flipping a switch from a plat game or a non-plat game.

I'm sure the devs wanted to, they can have their games have a platinum and Sony won't object.

The thing is that trophy bugs can easily fail your game at certification. If I had a choice with my games, I would make as few trophies as possible, and that's why Sony is giving the choice.
Click to expand...

Ooooh, never considered that.
For a collection with 6 games, I guess I can understand Capcom decision now.
 
J

Joni

Member
Andrefpvs said:
(For another example of inconsistencies, look up The Walking Dead Season 1 and The Walking Dead Season 2. Both games are exactly the same in structure, but the way the trophy lists are made is completely different)
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Considering there is a Back to the Future with Platinum and 'one' without, I'm wondering if it is at all Sony. It is twice the same game, two different Trophy structures.
 
H

Hypron

Member
Sometimes I like reduced trophy lists like Spelunky's because it doesn't have the low scorer trophy which is just completely anti-fun.

I do also like that there are rules regarding how many trophies a game can have. A game having too many trophies (like those Steam games that have 100/200+ of them) tends to put me off even trying to get them.

But yeah I think every game should have a Platinum trophy. Games that don't look out of place on my trophy list. I also don't really think people care that much about the specific number of gold, silver and bronze trophies they own. Whereas if every game had a platinum then the number of platinums you have would tell you/people how many games you've completed right away.
 
J

Jotamide

Unconfirmed Member
firelogic said:
How did you ever play games before achievements? Yes, they're there now so having a better system is better than a bad one, but damn. People used to play games to play games. If a meaningless trophy list is what gets you excited about a game, there's something wrong.
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Didn't I say that I wouldn't play them? No. Does it add an extra layer of challenge that can enhance my experience in some games? Definitely. Getting the Platinum in P4AU is one of my biggest gaming accomplishments, even if it isn't that hard to get.
 
T

The End

Member
antitrop said:
Let me have my Platinums, Sony!

Disappointing that something like Galak-Z was missing it.
Click to expand...

one of the devs was in the official thread and he was surprised that small indie games could have platinum trophies at all

this really seems like a dev relations issue
 
S

Sangetsu-II

Member
Well this is more to blame on the sites that give points worth on trophy types. I personally like games having platinum's that are hard to get but I like the system they have. Doesn't bother me much.

P.S: Why should achievements and trophies be compared?
These are to different systems and I don't see the need for them to be compared.
 
B

baconcow

Member
drotahorror said:
I'm not sure how Sony does their trophies.

Some small indie games have platinums. Rogue Legacy, Sound Shapes, Resogun, Geometry Wars 3, N++ to name a couple.

Then games like Galak Z which is hard as balls doesn't have one.
Click to expand...

I think this was a dev confusion, for GALAK-Z. They didn't believe "small-scale" games were allowed trophies, when many have them (as you listed). As a result, the potential replayability of their game has been harmed, for many people.
 
X

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
I would love a game to have only two trophies/achievements.

- Start the game
- Beat the game

I think it would be pretty funny.
 
Melchiah

Melchiah

Member
Andrefpvs said:
For example, Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes can take around 20 hours to fully complete. It has 15 trophies, but no Platinum:
OPyEhxZ.png
Click to expand...

Funnily enough The Order: 1886, which can be completed much quicker, has a platinum trophy. Resogun and Infamous: First Light were apparently also exceptions when it comes to shorter/smaller games.

I've noticed, that several of Sony's games seem to have more gold trophies than the 3rd party titles. All three above, and Driveclub & Bloodborne, have 5-7 golds. Whereas something like Dragon Age: Inquisition and Destiny have only 2.
 
J

Joni

Member
Melchiah said:
Funnily enough The Order: 1886, which can be completed much quicker, has a platinum trophy. Resogun and Infamous: First Light were apparently also exceptions when it comes to shorter/smaller games.

I've noticed, that several of Sony's games seem to have more gold trophies than the 3rd party titles. All three above, and Driveclub & Bloodborne, have 5-7 golds. Whereas something like Dragon Age: Inquisition and Destiny have only 2.
Click to expand...

Simple reason. If you want fifty achievements, it is a lot easier to get parity on the PS3-PS4 with a lot of bronze trophies. Sony doesn't have to achieve parity so they can do a lower amount of Trophies with more Silver and Gold. They still get about the same value. For instance, Dragon Age is worth 1335 points while The Order is only 1230 despite more gold.
 
C

Collateral22

Member
I agree. I barely play my XB1 atm, but games like Yu-Gi-Oh would make me play it due to the 1000 GS and not having a platinum. Child of Light was the same thing.
 
G

Gorger

Member
xxracerxx said:
I would love a game to have only two trophies/achievements.

- Start the game
- Beat the game

I think it would be pretty funny.
Click to expand...

Most tell tale games are exactly that, but instead of 1 trophy you get like 40 trophies for every chapter you complete.
 
DC1

DC1

Member
sciencerob said:
Wait... people are upset about trophies? They seem of very little importance to me tbh. Not sure why they should matter.
Click to expand...
OP. Read it completely.


For the record. All games should not have a platinum. And I dont expect platform parity in this arena. Achievements and Trophies have very different structures by which prowess is measured.

However, I agree with the OP that Sony's platinum requirement standards need to slightly trimmed and absolutely consistent.
 
T

The Xtortionist

Member
baconcow said:
I think this was a dev confusion, for GALAK-Z. They didn't believe "small-scale" games were allowed trophies, when many have them (as you listed). As a result, the potential replayability of their game has been harmed, for many people.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Shovel Knight, Transistor, and Bastion all have platinums despite being small-ish in scale. Really no excuse for this.
 
W

watership

Member
jonnyp said:
Achievement parity whinging...

I swear I'm losing all faith in humanity.

Who cares about trophies and achievements THAT much?
Click to expand...

Everyone? Including game makers and platform owners who rushed to implement their own achievement system after the 360 system became popular. Other platform holders are held to other compatible standards and systems surrounding game features, why not achievements?
 
T

Trigonometrize.

Member
Alo0oy said:
Wait, so every game can have a platinum, but some devs choose not to have them? Why the hell not?
Click to expand...

Easier time during certification, less to do that "doesn't matter" (relatively speaking) in general, unaware that a small game pack when programming the game = smaller trophies (what I've garnered from the thread).
 
S

Seven4sses

Member
Now that you mentioned it, I did notice that the trophy list was pretty small for Binding of Isaac: Rebirth compared to the original game when I bought it on PC. Even unlocking small items got an achievement on Steam, yet they didn't pop up as much while playing on my Vita.
 
J

Joni

Member
Interesting GAF post from the past, the lack of Platinum on Lumines Vita.

Milkman said:
Hiyo. Am logging in for the first time in 2 years purely for Wario64's benefit, to let him know that I am listening, but have just been slammed after returning from last week's media tour to San Francisco.

Regarding the lack of the Platinum Trophy, Wario64 and the rest of the Internet are correct: There isn't one. I was mistaken about the Platinum, and will explain the lack of one.

When we were formulating the full trophy list, we actually had a *massive* list of possible trophies. There are two trophy types: small scale, and large scale. The scale doesn't seem to have anything to do with the scale or scope of the game (i.e. puzzle game vs. an MMO), it's all down to what the developer chooses to do. Personally I wanted to go large scale, to give people lots of things to try and achieve, from simple score-based achievements, to how many times you could loop the Voyage mode, to countless other variations ranging from simple for newcomers to insane for veterans.

However, after retooling the concept internally, by the time we put our foot on the gas and went into full production, we actually had less than 6 months to complete the game, which despite Lumines being 'just a puzzle game' was actually a tremendous amount of work, because we weren't just dealing with regular milestones, but also various other internal milestones, in which our team was putting in massive amounts of overtime. As I learned during the process, the QA testing period was incredibly detailed --as any tester can attest to-- and the decision was made to go 'small scale' for trophies, because not only would they all need to be individually tested, the more we added, the more things would need to be translated into EFIGS languages, and the more potentially game-breaking bugs could surface; which wasn't worth the risk of missing our ultimate deadline -- Vita launch.

The director of the game --and I'm not trying to assign any sort of blame here-- having looked at the trophy 'rules' for PlayStation 3 games, and saw that Platinums were automatically unlocked by obtaining the rest of the trophies in the game, assumed that it would also be the same with Vita. As our first Vita title, we were learning a lot of things on the fly, and saw no reason to assume there would be any change for Vita trophies (for the record, I haven't checked if automatic Platinums are indeed unlocked on PS3 by this method; it's just the understanding we had at the time). So when people began asking if LES would feature a Platinum trophy, and I asked our director who told me "Yes, we have a Platinum, but it's unlocked automatically once people obtain the rest," and so I answered in kind on the PS Blog where the soundtrack was announced.

As I have since discovered, our information was inaccurate, and I apologize to people who thought they would receive a Platinum. There is no reason we would exclude it, but just didn't realize it wouldn't unlock. The reason I hadn't explicitly said 'you obtain it by unlocking the rest of the trophies' was because we thought people would unlock it automatically, and wanted to retain a small element of pleasant surprise.

I realize that a Platinum is desirable by a lot of game players, and am looking into whether we can add one, and how much work it would take. These things are never as simple as you might think, due to submission, testing, and certification processes, but I am checking into it. I would hope that you enjoy the game regardless, but I regret this oversight. If we are able to add a Platinum, I'll be sure to update things here, on our Facebook page, and via Twitter. Thanks for understanding.
Click to expand...
 
Melchiah

Melchiah

Member
Joni said:
Simple reason. If you want fifty achievements, it is a lot easier to get parity on the PS3-PS4 with a lot of bronze trophies. Sony doesn't have to achieve parity so they can do a lower amount of Trophies with more Silver and Gold. They still get about the same value. For instance, Dragon Age is worth 1335 points while The Order is only 1230 despite more gold.
Click to expand...

Interestingly, First Light is also worth 1230 points. Dunno how much Resogun is worth without the DLCs. Journey and The Vanishing of Ethan Carter are only 300-315 points. Seems like a big difference with similar size titles.
 
J

Joni

Member
Melchiah said:
Interestingly, First Light is also worth 1230 points. Dunno how much Resogun is worth without the DLCs. Journey and The Vanishing of Ethan Carter are only 300-315 points. Seems like a big difference with similar size titles.
Click to expand...
All games with a Platinum are about 1100-1350 points.
 
P

ps3ud0

Member
Seems the OP stance is out-of-date looking at the couple of devs who have come forward saying they have complete control of their trophy list but have to ensure trophies don't fail cert.

Perhaps we need to engage the devs that have games that we feel should have platinums and ask why they don't to try and get further information.

To me it sounds like either an old stance by Sony regards PSN games versus retail titles or just plainly some devs just haven't set up platinum trophies because they weren't aware they could due to Sony's apparent(mis-understood?) game-by-game treatment of trophies.

Personally I'm quite happy with a game-by-game attitude as its hard to pigeon hole games or even a genre to specific set of trophies. Surely it's a devs responsibility what they want so like Sony's involvement to be as little as possible. Though it seems being the gatekeepers to platinums could avoid devs just sticking them to push sales when they just aren't warrantied. And keep their 'value' intact

ps3ud0 8)
 
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