• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Court: Baker who refused to make gay wedding cake can't cite beliefs

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Boy Wander

Member
The guy needs to get over this and see it from a different perspective. Him baking a cake is not an endorsement of their marriage. They would be getting married regardless. Its only an endorsement if he makes it one in his mind. This is discrimination because he is treating the customer differently. Anyone arguing against this needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
 
F

Future

Member
Kimawolf said:
So now he'll just get a donation drive going and make like a million dollars or more to support his family.

I think as a public business you should be forced to make the cake, but he shouldn't have to write his support of gay marriage. We can't force people to say or believe in something they don't.

And yes courts need to get involved because normal people are surprisingly racist and bigoted.
Click to expand...

The core of the point. If you run a business, there a bunch of things you have to do regardless of personal beliefs: pay taxes, offer at least minimum wage, and more. Businesses do not have total freedom to do what they want. Never have
 
V

Version 3.0

Member
RDreamer said:
I think nowadays even in pretty small towns you'd have a hard time outwardly saying you won't serve black people. There are probably a few towns where that might work, but overall probably not. It would be a nonstarter for the most part.

The thing is, though, that's decades after forced integration. We're literally in the same year of allowing same sex marriage across the country. Businesses absolutely would survive right now if they didn't allow same sex couples or doing business for same sex weddings.
Click to expand...

We obviously can't know for sure about how a business that said "no blacks", but sadly, I think we might, even now, see something similar to the Chick-Fil-A scenario: widespread criticism, but more than enough bigots to make up for it.

I think a business that was allowed to say "no Arabs / no Muslims" right now in America would flourish ( I was going to say explode, har de har har, anti-Muslim jokes are so funny).
 
Laieon

Laieon

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
That doesn't mean another business will prop up that fills the role his did. If he's the last grocery store for miles, there's no guarantee another will step up and fill the same niche, and even if one did open, there's no guarantee it wouldn't be segregated either.

And what if he doesn't go out of business. What if not serving minorities actually gains him business.

You're basically denying that the history of discrimination from the early to mid 1900s never happened.
Click to expand...

Discrimination has been around for ever, it wasn't magically invented in the early to mid 1900s. It's never going away, it's always going to be a thing.

If for whatever reason not serving minorities (or majorities, as odd as that would be) gains Mr.BusinessOwner business, maybe it's time to pack up and leave. If you're living a place where people clearly don't want you there, why would you willingly stay there knowing that there's plenty of places that will?

With 80% of the US population living in urban areas, the chances of you living in a small town where literally every business discriminates against you is probably going to be pretty low.

I'd rather people be completely honest with their beliefs then pretend everything is sunshine and rainbows.

metalslimer said:
Then stop arguing his beliefs would put him out of business
Click to expand...

I never said they would. This guy did though, and I was quoting him:

balladofwindfishes said:

A racist grocery store owner doesn't care if he loses money not serving african americans. He doesn't serve them due to deep rooted hatred, even if he loses money. Even if he goes out of business, racism is so embedded into his mind that allowing black people to increase business wouldn't even enter his mind as an option.
Click to expand...
 
R

RDreamer

Member
Leondexter said:
We obviously can't know for sure about how a business that said "no blacks", but sadly, I think we might, even now, see something similar to the Chick-Fil-A scenario: widespread criticism, but more than enough bigots to make up for it.

I think a business that was allowed to say "no Arabs / no Muslims" right now in America would flourish ( I was going to say explode, har de har har, anti-Muslim jokes are so funny).
Click to expand...

Someone's trying just that!
 
V

Version 3.0

Member
CDX said:
No. ...well maybe, BUT only if he's in the business of selling hate cakes, but he's not.

There is no practical reason a "gay wedding cake" should be considered a separate product category. It's just a "wedding cake" that happens to be ordered by a gay couple

If a straight heterosexual couple comes in and asks for a "wedding cake" and you sell them one, but refuse when a gay couple comes in and asks for the same service a "wedding cake" to be made. That's discrimination.

If somebody comes in and asks for a hate cake and you don't sell hate cakes to anyone. That's not discrimination when they get denied
Click to expand...

Would you kindly explain this to every right wing talk show in the country? Because that false equivalence is almost literally the ONLY thing they ever say on this topic.
 
S

Spoo

Member
I love how "accessory to gayness" has somehow been retroactively instilled in any and all holy books.

How? God only fucking knows -- in fact, even God, should he or she exist, really doesn't have a clue. That's how ridiculous this is; if anyone was actually challenged to point out where in their holy books it is stated with brevity and clarity: "Thou shalt not render services unto gay people less ye become gay!" or some such, they could not without a reading so intensely arbitrary it would undermine the point of every page.

I'm glad they're getting called on their bullshit, but it surprises me to no end that they cannot seem to recognize how truly transparent they are when they point to a source which cannot, in any direct way, back up their claim. It's simply not against their Religion. In fact, denying gay people service on the basis of their religion may be against their Religion, if the text is actually sourced by people who know it well.
 
O

Orbis Tabula

Member
Ryuelli said:
Discrimination has been around for ever, it wasn't magically invented in the early to mid 1900s. It's never going away, it's always going to be a thing.

If for whatever reason not serving minorities (or majorities, as odd as that would be) gains Mr.BusinessOwner business, maybe it's time to pack up and leave. If you're living a place where people clearly don't want you there, why would you willingly stay there knowing that there's plenty of places that will?

With 80% of the US population living in urban areas, the chances of you living in a small town where literally every business discriminates against you is probably going to be pretty low.

I'd rather people be completely honest with their beliefs then pretend everything is sunshine and rainbows.
Click to expand...

It looks like you agree with people here that discrimination is a bad thing. Yet you seem to think that, when it happens, the person doing the Bad Thing should be able to continue doing it, and the victim of the Bad Thing should have to fucking move. Don't you see how insane that is? Moving away is not a trivial thing. It's hard enough without having to scope out local businesses for bigots. If we've got a behavior that we think is bad, why not just ban it and save the victims all that trouble?

Raistlin said:
Bravo ... seriously


Don't see this sort of thing much here
Click to expand...

Also, yeah. I'll echo this statement. Pretty fucking big of someone to publicly change their mind and applogize. Kudos, dude.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Ryuelli said:
Discrimination has been around for ever, it wasn't magically invented in the early to mid 1900s. It's never going away, it's always going to be a thing.

If for whatever reason not serving minorities (or majorities, as odd as that would be) gains Mr.BusinessOwner business, maybe it's time to pack up and leave. If you're living a place where people clearly don't want you there, why would you willingly stay there knowing that there's plenty of places that will?

With 80% of the US population living in urban areas, the chances of you living in a small town where literally every business discriminates against you is probably going to be pretty low.

I'd rather people be completely honest with their beliefs then pretend everything is sunshine and rainbows.
Click to expand...
Your solution for minorities being discriminated against is to move? lmao
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Oh man, being able to refuse service to someone for whatever reason would be great. One would just love to go to a hospital in an emergency, then be refused service because the doctor is all "sorry mang, no niggers". What about college? Wouldn't it be so much better if most teachers simply refused to teach to blacks? Wouldn't get so many assholes like Cornell West so easily, no siree.
 
S

Siegcram

Member
Ryuelli said:
If for whatever reason not serving minorities (or majorities, as odd as that would be) gains Mr.BusinessOwner business, maybe it's time to pack up and leave. If you're living a place where people clearly don't want you there, why would you willingly stay there knowing that there's plenty of places that will?
Click to expand...
Good lord. Between this and the cop thread, the bar for victim blaming has been raised considerably.
 
S

SaganIsGOAT

Junior Member
Sephzilla said:
In light of some of the comments others have made, you guys are right. I'm wrong here and didn't really think out my initial comment very well. I'm sorry, honestly
Click to expand...

Don't apologize for an idea, own that shit. I get what you were saying and honestly if it were to happen we would either see

-bigoted shitheads business goes down
-other bigots support the business in which case people are making it OBVIOUS they are shitheads as well

Seems good to me
 
S

Siegcram

Member
SaganIsGOAT said:
Don't apologize for an idea, own that shit. I get what you were saying and honestly if it were to happen we would either see

-bigoted shitheads business goes down
-other bigots support the business in which case people are making it OBVIOUS they are shitheads as well

Seems good to me
Click to expand...
What happened 50-60 years ago in the US seems good to you?
 
S

Scrabble

Member
CDX said:
No. ...well maybe, BUT only if he's in the business of selling hate cakes, but he's not.

There is no practical reason a "gay wedding cake" should be considered a separate product category. It's just a "wedding cake" that happens to be ordered by a gay couple

If a straight heterosexual couple comes in and asks for a "wedding cake" and you sell them one, but refuse when a gay couple comes in and asks for the same service a "wedding cake" to be made. That's discrimination.

If somebody comes in and asks for a hate cake and you don't sell hate cakes to anyone. That's not discrimination when they get denied
Click to expand...

Why is a gay themed cake not a distinction but a hate themed cake is? If the case was about a bakery denying service to gay people than that's discrimination, but refusing to produce a specific cake for a gay customer doesn't seem like discrimination. Would it equally be discriminatory if as a straight man I was denied a gay themed cake on account the business owner doesn't make gay themed cakes?
 
E

ElectricBlanketFire

Member
SaganIsGOAT said:
Don't apologize for an idea, own that shit. I get what you were saying and honestly if it were to happen we would either see

-bigoted shitheads business goes down
-other bigots support the business in which case people are making it OBVIOUS they are shitheads as well

Seems good to me
Click to expand...

He said he changed his mind.
 
J

Jacksinthe

Banned
I'm (un)surprised to see so many devout religious people coming out of the woodwork on this issue. Surely they apply the same religious fervor to everything in their lives and their souls are clear of any wrongdoing.
 
G

Goliath

Member
DonasaurusRex said:
now i hope you don't confuse why black people did sit ins and boycotted places , it wasn't because of refusing to be served. It was for receiving second class service for the same price. Jim Crow shop owners were just fine having pick ups for black people in alley ways, or having a negro section in a shop. It wasn't about black people being allowed it was about taking the money and treating them like shit in return. This isn't the same thing, here we have someone saying they don't want to be a part of something that goes against their beliefs ie the wedding, he's not taking their money or refusing to refund (is he? that would be a lawsuit).

There are similarities but the difference is there, just as many boycotts of establishments happened as did , sit - ins to prove a point. Boycotts of bus systems, retail chains, etc etc , however in the mean time black people had their own businesses , and people to patronize. The issue was businesses expecting full PRICE for jim crow service. Things changed because businesses saw people voting with their wallets, if such and such a chain isn't going to accomodate black people then spread the word and give your money to someone who would.

It's a little disturbing to see that aspect of it being glazed over thats huge.
Click to expand...

The Civil Rights Movement wasn't for better customer service. It was meant to gain equality and be treated fairly. There were places where Blacks weren't allowed or jobs that refused to hire Blacks. There wasn't always an alternative for certain resources when whites excluded Blacks.

It went beyond Jim Crow treatment for regular prices. It was about a very clear divide that kept Blacks limited in resources. The same thing is happening in the Gay Marriage Movement. Republicans were actually doing everything to prevent them from getting equal protection under the law as a married couple. They wanted to redefine marriage, they wanted to ban Gay Marriage, they wanted to make it LEGAL to discriminate in the work force against Gays. Allowing the government to cosign religious bigotry is wrong and backing up Bakeries that claim to be Christian but serve all sorts of sinners goods because they don't ask anything beyond if it's for a Gay wedding is irresponsible.
 
S

Siegcram

Member
SaganIsGOAT said:
I'm expanding upon his idea. Telling him not to apologize for a thought he had. And no, I don't condone what happened 50-60 years ago. My point was, I get what he was going for.
Click to expand...
But the thought he had was terrible, already happened AND he reconsidered. Your positive reinforcement seems ... misplaced.
 
E

ElectricBlanketFire

Member
Crafty_ said:
Why is a gay themed cake not a distinction but a hate themed cake is? If the case was about a bakery denying service to gay people than that's discrimination, but refusing to produce a specific cake for a gay customer doesn't seem like discrimination.
Click to expand...

Because one is for a wedding and one is designed to hurt/intimidate people.
 
A

Armaros

Member
Ryuelli said:
Discrimination has been around for ever, it wasn't magically invented in the early to mid 1900s. It's never going away, it's always going to be a thing.

If for whatever reason not serving minorities (or majorities, as odd as that would be) gains Mr.BusinessOwner business, maybe it's time to pack up and leave. If you're living a place where people clearly don't want you there, why would you willingly stay there knowing that there's plenty of places that will?

With 80% of the US population living in urban areas, the chances of you living in a small town where literally every business discriminates against you is probably going to be pretty low.

I'd rather people be completely honest with their beliefs then pretend everything is sunshine and rainbows.



I never said they would. This guy did though, and I was quoting him:
Click to expand...

So because discrimination will still exist, we shouldn't enforce laws that try to prevent it or at least force business to provide equal service and minorities should just move.

AMAZING idea, why didnt those Blacks of the Segregation era just do that? Move to areas that had white business that didn't think they were lesser people.
 
Laieon

Laieon

Member
ElectricBlanketFire said:
Might as well give up then.
Click to expand...

Nope. We're making a shit ton of progress. More integrated then we've ever been. As a society, I strongly believe we've become much, much more accepting of each other as time goes on. That doesn't mean stupid and ignorant people are going to magically disappear. They're always going to exist. I'd rather they blatantly display their ignorance instead of society pretending like it doesn't exist.

America may still have racists (but what country doesn't?), but as a whole I'd say it's not that racist. What other country in the world is even close to being as diverse as America is? The Civil Rights movement may have only been 50 years ago, but a hell of a lot has happened in the past 50 years that's made it incredibly easy to be exposed to a lot of different types of cultures and experiences.

Personally speaking, I'm just a 25 year old guy who was born in the mid west. I'm nothing special, but I have friends who are black, I have friends from South Africa. I have friends from Hong Kong, I have friends from Korea, I have friends who are Hispanic, Cuban, Venezuelan, British, French, Irish, and Malaysian. I have friends from Singapore, I have friends from Canada. I have friends from all over the US. Maybe I'm an anomaly, but I'd like to think that most younger people are like me. 50 years ago, if you were just an average person, you probably weren't going to have a personal relationship with too many people outside of your state (maybe family if they lived abroad). It's 2015, it's incredibly easy to be exposed to more than what's going in your town, state, or even country.

As time goes on and my generation and the generations that follow start running things, racism will continue to decline (just like it has throughout history. It's not a disease though, I don't think it will ever be completely eliminated.

Again, I'd rather bigots display their bigotry out in the open then for society to pretend like it doesn't exist.
 
P

partyphone

Banned
Crafty_ said:
Why is a gay themed cake not a distinction but a hate themed cake is? If the case was about a bakery denying service to gay people than that's discrimination, but refusing to produce a specific cake for a gay customer doesn't seem like discrimination. Would it equally be discriminatory if as a straight man I was denied a gay themed cake on account the business owner doesn't make gay themed cakes?
Click to expand...

it's discrimination when you refuse service based on who the customer is(excluding criminals or whatever I just know someone is going to be pedantic about this). it's not discrimination if you refuse service for something you don't offer.

the gay couple wanted a wedding cake. the baker sells wedding cakes.
 
E

ElectricBlanketFire

Member
Ryuelli said:
Nope. We're making a shit ton of progress. More integrated then we've ever been. As a society, I strongly believe we're much, much more accepting of each other as time goes on. That doesn't mean stupid and ignorant people are going to magically disappear. They're always going to exist. I'd rather they blatantly display their ignorance instead of society pretending like it doesn't exist.
Click to expand...

I was going to respond, but it's too hard to think of a reply so I'm just going to move to a different thread.
 
G

Goliath

Member
SaganIsGOAT said:
Don't apologize for an idea, own that shit. I get what you were saying and honestly if it were to happen we would either see

-bigoted shitheads business goes down
-other bigots support the business in which case people are making it OBVIOUS they are shitheads as well

Seems good to me
Click to expand...

Not good, not good for the people that are minorities and live in those situations. It's one thing for a community to hate you behind closed doors but to allow them to flaunt it and make life difficult for you is not acceptable. Not everyone can pick up and move to a more accepting location. Bigot business need to be shot down by the government and shamed until eventually that generation is replaced with the next more accepting generation.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Ryuelli said:
Nope. We're making a shit ton of progress. More integrated then we've ever been. As a society, I strongly believe we're much, much more accepting of each other as time goes on. That doesn't mean stupid and ignorant people are going to magically disappear. They're always going to exist. I'd rather they blatantly display their ignorance instead of society pretending like it doesn't exist.
Click to expand...

You...

You do realize businesses are less discriminating now because of laws that prevent them from discriminating, right?
 
A

Armaros

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
You...

You do realize businesses are less discriminating now because of laws that prevent them from discriminating, right?
Click to expand...

"We made so much progress that we should stop enforcing anti-discrimination laws, especially these laws defending minorities that just recently have had these protections applied to them"
 
S

Siegcram

Member
Ryuelli said:
Nope. We're making a shit ton of progress. More integrated then we've ever been. As a society, I strongly believe we've become much, much more accepting of each other as time goes on. That doesn't mean stupid and ignorant people are going to magically disappear. They're always going to exist. I'd rather they blatantly display their ignorance instead of society pretending like it doesn't exist.
Click to expand...
Laws aren't about people, but their actions. Blatant displays of ignorance are allowed. Discriminatory actions that result out of those displays aren't. Because one of those directly affects others. This isn't hard.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Siegcram said:
Great idea:
whites-only.gif
Click to expand...

Looking at the apostrophe I'm positive this refers to this:

rotuIjTl.jpg
 
S

SaganIsGOAT

Junior Member
Goliath said:
Not good, not good for the people that are minorities and live in those situations. It's one thing for a community to hate you behind closed doors but to allow them to flaunt it and make life difficult for you is not acceptable. Not everyone can pick up and move to a more accepting location. Bigot business need to be shot down by the government and shamed until eventually that generation is replaced with the next more accepting generation.
Click to expand...

See my follow up post please
 
S

SaganIsGOAT

Junior Member
Siegcram said:
But the thought he had was terrible, already happened AND he reconsidered. Your positive reinforcement seems ... misplaced.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to give him positive reinforcement, I just don't get why an apology was needed for an idea that hadn't fully formed. unless he genuinely hurt some of your feelings, a simple, "oh, I never thought of it that way" seems better than, "sorry."

This is like a really dumb argument at this point lol
 
O

Orbis Tabula

Member
Ryuelli said:
Nope. We're making a shit ton of progress. More integrated then we've ever been. As a society, I strongly believe we've become much, much more accepting of each other as time goes on. That doesn't mean stupid and ignorant people are going to magically disappear. They're always going to exist. I'd rather they blatantly display their ignorance instead of society pretending like it doesn't exist.
Click to expand...

If we've made a lot of progress on discrimination in the past, maybe we should keep doing the same things we did before to fight discrimination...
 
B

Bodacious

Banned
genjiZERO said:
I'm a little conflicted in this. He isn't saying he won't serve gay customers only that he doesn't want to make gay themed cakes. You could say that he's holding himself out to the public, but isn't there a line? Does this mean he would have to make a cake for a hate group too? Now, we can draw a line of reasonableness, but it's still an arbitrary line.
Click to expand...

Not even "gay themed" cakes, but specifically same-sex wedding cakes. In other words, gay couple comes in and order 2 dozen rainbow cupcakes for a party, no problem. Straight woman comes in and orders a wedding cake for her brother's same-sex wedding, baker has a religious objection. It's not about who's buying it, it's about what the product is.

I've got no problem with sex marriage, doesn't affect me and barring it is a hindrance to others' pursuit of happiness IMHO. But the 1st Amendment does guarantee freedom of religious expression, and by his terms he is not refusing to serve certain people, he's only refusing to prepare and sell a certain type of product, on religious grounds. I know what side I fall on -- if he makes and sells wedding cakes, he can make and sell wedding cakes to whoever wants one, because a wedding cake is just a cake, not an endorsement of the marriage). But I can easily see the argument for the baker's side that he's not refusing to serve anyone, he just doesn't sell a certain product because of his religious objection to what it represents. Like asking a Muslim sandwich shop to fix me a bacon sandwich, when they'd be happy to make me a mutton sandwich instead. If I were the judge I'd rule against him, but it is a weighing of rights situation, not just, 'hey fuck you.'
 
E

ElectricBlanketFire

Member
SaganIsGOAT said:
I'm not trying to give him positive reinforcement, I just don't get why an apology was needed for an idea that hadn't fully formed. unless he genuinely hurt some of your feelings, a simple, "oh, I never thought of it that way" seems better than, "sorry."

This is like a really dumb argument at this point lol
Click to expand...

There was no dumb argument about it until you started posting.
 
A

AndyD

aka andydumi
Tenebrous said:
I'm not defending the baker's shitty attitude, but I have a feeling a court wouldn't deliver the same result with someone of minority faith.
Click to expand...

Are you sure? I think society wide interests would be seen to trump all personal faith beliefs, regardless of whether the faith is a majority or minority.
 
S

SaganIsGOAT

Junior Member
RDreamer said:
fixed that for ya
Click to expand...

Could the age of social media potentially aid in singling out the bigots? I mean, if this was actually the case, I'd make a website where people photograph the shitlords, and post a little background info about them. But on the flip side, this allows equal power to bigots to gang up
 
C

Cyan

Banned
Grinchy said:
I'm always shocked that something like this goes to court. If I were the gay couple, and some place told me they wouldn't make my gayke, my first reaction would be to go somewhere else. Even if I got a court to order a baker to make it for me, I would just assume it wouldn't be a good quality or that it was tampered with.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it's not about wanting that specific cake, dude.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

US Supreme Court refuses Epic bid to let App Store order take effect in Apple case
2 3 4
177
10K
SmokedMeat replied
'Gay wedding cake' case hits US Supreme Court
8 9 10 11 12
591
53K
ResurrectedContrarian replied
Supreme Court to take case on baker who refused to sell wedding cake to gay couple
42
7K
LOCK replied
Republicans Vote to Make It Legal to Ban Gays and Lesbians from Adopting
2 3 4
169
9K
balgajo replied
US DOJ: Religious Liberty Task Force
29
2K
TheShadowLord replied
Top Bottom