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Question RE how PS VR works compared to the O.R

N

nogoodnamesleft

Banned
Having owned a DK2 unit myself for some time, i understand you need quite a high end pc to get the framerates needed to not induce motion sickness and to also keep up with the native refresh rate of the unit. I do own said PC, so it is not an issue. But my question is, how does the PS VR work, considering the power difference?

Most ps4 games run at 30fps (and then some are even under that). Is it a case of either the PS VR games will have incredibly basic visuals (to sustain 120hz@1080p), PS VR games will have immense performance issues, OR does the PS VR work in a way that the OR doesnt? Is the way the PS VR and OR outputting images into each eye different or identical?

Ive tried to google this subject but have never been able to find a concrete answer.

edit: also this is not a "which is better", ill be buying CV1 and PSvr day 1 (i need rez VR) more a "what are the differences in operation" and "what needs to be cutback, if anything, to make PS VR functional"
 
X

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
PSVR comes with a companion cube, well box.

IgnKq3L.jpg
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
PSVR comes with a breakout box. PSVR screen is lower resolution than Oculus Rift. VR games will probably have some compromises to ensure performance of at least 60 fps. For the native 90 hz+ games, compromises will definitely be made to ensure it stays at that framerate.
 
N

NeatoKuni

Member
iirc it comes with a little box that you plug in to give it the "extra power" to run everything smppthly. I'll look for a picture real quick!

edit: beat
 
B

bluexy

Member
Part of it is the magic box that the PS VR will come with. Part of it is that you're only going to get built-100%-for-PS-VR games on the PlayStation. Don't expect many, if any, PC ports or VR-enabled but otherwise non-VR games like on PC. It'll be a completely different world developing VR games that the PS4 will be capable of running.
 
F

Flandy

Member
Do we actually know that the breakout box provides extra power? I've just seen conflicting reports due to the way it was worded in a presentation
 
N

nogoodnamesleft

Banned
I knew about the additional hardware box, i just couldnt find any concrete information about what direct function it has apart from

"Sony calls the small box a “PU”, short for “Processing Unit”. The box makes sure that the signal coming from the console is accurately transformed into a proper VR signal for the headset, and it also helps convert the footage into 120Hz.

Additionally, it makes sure that the TV can still display the image while the VR headset is in use — so that when someone is playing a VR game using PlayStation VR headset, the TV will display a mirrored image of the game for any spectators to follow what’s going on.

The PU box also provides power to the VR headset. The headset itself features a low-latency 1920 X RGB X 1080 display."


So i thought, initially, that it was just:
Displaying the image on a seperate display (ie TV)
Direct connection of the VR headset, then the box connects into the ps4

I didnt know it actually had processing power behind it. Were specs for it ever released? it must have some grunt behind it surely.


edit: As people have stated above, yeah i could not find any confirmation that the box actually added extra graphics processing power. so if that remains the case, PS VR games visuals will have to be incredibly simplified to hit 120hz@1080p correct? (or at worse, the resolution could be lowered to improve performance)
 
B

boredandlazy

Member
I don't remember any PR speak or anything from anyone at Sony that suggested the breakout box did any graphics processing. So why is that still thrown around like it's a fact?
 
A

Afrikan

Member
Flandy said:
Do we actually know that the breakout box provides extra power? I've just seen conflicting reports due to the way it was worded in a presentation
Click to expand...

Not to the extent of how some are describing in this thread...

but it is fun to sit back and watch people respond like this.... smh.
 
Allforce

Allforce

Member
Have they said anything about the PSVR as just a viewing device? As in, play a regular PS4 game like Bloodborne or Rocket League on a screen you view from inside the headset ala Oculus Theater?
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
nogoodnamesleft said:
edit: As people have stated above, yeah i could not find any confirmation that the box actually added extra graphics processing power. so if that remains the case, PS VR games visuals will have to be incredibly simplified to hit 120hz@1080p correct? (or at worse, the resolution could be lowered to improve performance)
Click to expand...

Ya don't want to lower resolution for VR as IQ is as important as framerate in a lot of ways. Push fewer polygons. Reducing particle effects. Replacing physical based calculations with less expensive approximations. That's what you do to optimize for framerate on VR.
 
N

nogoodnamesleft

Banned
mugurumakensei said:
Ya don't want to lower resolution for VR as IQ is as important as framerate in a lot of ways. Push fewer polygons. Reducing particle effects. Replacing physical based calculations with less expensive approximations. That's what you do to optimize for framerate on VR.
Click to expand...


I am totally fine if that will be how developers manage to reach a steady 120hz@1080p (and yes, i agree that it must be native res/framerate)

The immersion is why i will be all in on VR. I thought maybe that the PS VR may have had a new kind of technology to maybe "mirror" the images, so that a huge amount of processing power may not be needed. But if this is not the case, im curious as to how simplistic games will look on the PS VR to reach such high framerates/resolutions.
 
O

oSoLucky

Member
I believe the box also processes the binaural audio for the headset.

Rigs does look relatively simple, but that's fine with me as games like that and Rez are what I expect for first gen VR. Maybe GT or DC will blow Ys all away though, who knows.
 
I

iMkh

Neo Member
I don't know about the real game that will come after the release of the headset but demos like London Heist have indeed really basic visuals. I tried RIGS as well and it was okay but there is kind of a grid effect that really stood out (the resolution I guess). Otherwise it was fuckin' smooth at 120fps (reprojected) and that was really great!
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
nogoodnamesleft said:
I am totally fine if that will be how developers manage to reach a steady 120hz@1080p (and yes, i agree that it must be native res/framerate)

The immersion is why i will be all in on VR. I thought maybe that the PS VR may have had a new kind of technology to maybe "mirror" the images, so that a huge amount of processing power may not be needed. But if this is not the case, im curious as to how simplistic games will look on the PS VR to reach such high framerates/resolutions.
Click to expand...

Well, the Uncharted collection runs at 60fps so more ambitious looking games will probably be around that level. 120hz and above though I'd say depends on how much is going on. If it's just environment and single character like that Summer Vacation or whatever thing Namco has going on, you can make an amazing looking 'game' that runs really well.
 
S

stryke

Member
nogoodnamesleft said:
I am totally fine if that will be how developers manage to reach a steady 120hz@1080p (and yes, i agree that it must be native res/framerate)

The immersion is why i will be all in on VR. I thought maybe that the PS VR may have had a new kind of technology to maybe "mirror" the images, so that a huge amount of processing power may not be needed. But if this is not the case, im curious as to how simplistic games will look on the PS VR to reach such high framerates/resolutions.
Click to expand...

Not many devs will shoot for 120fps. 60 or 90 will be a lot more common.

But I'm not sure why you still have these questions, don't PSVR videos give a good enough idea of what to expect?
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
stryke said:
Not many devs will shoot for 120fps. 60 or 90 will be a lot more common.

But I'm not sure why you still have these questions, don't PSVR videos give a good enough idea of what to expect?
Click to expand...

Sony actually recommends you shoot for at least 90. Only resort to 60 if you must.
 
W

whitehawk

Banned
xxracerxx said:
PSVR comes with a companion cube, well box.

IgnKq3L.jpg
Click to expand...

mugurumakensei said:
PSVR comes with a breakout box. PSVR screen is lower resolution than Oculus Rift. VR games will probably have some compromises to ensure performance of at least 60 fps. For the native 90 hz+ games, compromises will definitely be made to ensure it stays at that framerate.
Click to expand...

NeatoKuni said:
iirc it comes with a little box that you plug in to give it the "extra power" to run everything smppthly. I'll look for a picture real quick!

edit: beat
Click to expand...

Zvonimir Boban said:
It comes with a separate box which provides a bit more horsepower iirc
Click to expand...

bluexy said:
Part of it is the magic box that the PS VR will come with. Part of it is that you're only going to get built-100%-for-PS-VR games on the PlayStation. Don't expect many, if any, PC ports or VR-enabled but otherwise non-VR games like on PC. It'll be a completely different world developing VR games that the PS4 will be capable of running.
Click to expand...

mugurumakensei said:
It offloads some of the processing necessary for the headset to the box which means the GPU and CPU of the PS4 don't as big of a performance hit.
Click to expand...
Lots of misinformation in this thread. The extra box only helps with some audio and video processing. It descales the warped VR image so it can be displayed on the TV, and processing 3d audio. It doesn't have extra GPU/CPU power for graphics.
 
T

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
nogoodnamesleft said:
I can imagine 60fps being EXTREMELY nauseating. It certainly feels like it on OR when I tested capped 60.
Click to expand...

Actual 60fps isn't possible, only 60fps -> 120fps. Head position is updated faster than 60fps in every PSVR display mode, so I don't see motion sickness being an issue.
 
D

Durante

Member
THE BOX DOES NOT DO RENDERING.

The reason it will work on the PS4 with roughly half the specs of the baseline Oculus suggested system is a combination of
  • Somewhat lower resolution.
  • More strenuous games probably targeting 60 FPS with two reprojection steps per rendered frame, rather than a strict 90 FPS with reprojection on the PC HMDs. (This has a number of possible artifacts, but they are most apparent with lateral movement)
  • Lower graphical fidelity. (e.g. fewer polys, simpler shaders, fewer alpha effects, whatever)
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
whitehawk said:
Lots of misinformation in this thread. The extra box only helps with some audio and video processing. It descales the warped VR image so it can be displayed on the TV, and processing 3d audio. It doesn't have extra GPU/CPU power for graphics.
Click to expand...

In which of my post did I say it helped improved graphics? The only thing I stated is the box does processing for the headset itself which it does. Any processing it does is processing the GPU and CPU are freed from doing. That is the breakout box prevents further performance hits for VR.
 
L

Luigiv

Member
If I remember correctly, I believe that psvr can frame interpolate to boost a 60fps signal to 120fps, similar to what TV's do.
 
N

nogoodnamesleft

Banned
Durante said:
THE BOX DOES NOT DO RENDERING.

The reason it will work on the PS4 with roughly half the specs of the baseline Oculus suggested system is a combination of
  • Somewhat lower resolution.
  • More strenuous games probably targeting 60 FPS with two reprojection steps per rendered frame, rather than a strict 90 FPS with reprojection on the PC HMDs. (This has a number of possible artifacts, but they are most apparent with lateral movement)
  • Lower graphical fidelity. (e.g. fewer polys,
    simpler shaders, fewer alpha effects, whatever)
Click to expand...



The second is exactly the kind of technical info I was after! Thanks. I can't wait to try all the VR sets tbh.
 
T

Toparaman

Banned
Durante said:
THE BOX DOES NOT DO RENDERING.

The reason it will work on the PS4 with roughly half the specs of the baseline Oculus suggested system is a combination of
  • Somewhat lower resolution.
  • More strenuous games probably targeting 60 FPS with two reprojection steps per rendered frame, rather than a strict 90 FPS with reprojection on the PC HMDs. (This has a number of possible artifacts, but they are most apparent with lateral movement)
  • Lower graphical fidelity. (e.g. fewer polys, simpler shaders, fewer alpha effects, whatever)
Click to expand...
Right, "reprojection" is what I meant. Not motion interpolation. My bad.
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
stryke said:
Sony can recommend all they want. What I expect to happen is different.
Click to expand...

The initial developers are mostly going to be Sony First Party and Indie devs. It would be the case if the slate of devs was a bunch of AAA third party devs but that simply is not the case. Thus, I expect 90FPS will be the norm for most titles with 120 and 60 being equally represented.
 
W

WarpathDC

Junior Member
Cartman86 said:
Some form of asynchronous timewarp as well I imagine.
Click to expand...

I believe so, with a 120hz refresh rate. Secret Sauce. Everyone that seems to have tried it has left pretty impressed from what I've read. I'll be getting OR and PSVR probably. Maybe Vive if the lighthouse stuff is worthwhile and/or HL3 or Portal VR
 
W

WarpathDC

Junior Member
Tyl3n0L85 said:
Racing and Flying game will be completely crazy in VR.

Even if they downgrade Driveclub, it'll still look better than anything else on the market right now :)
Click to expand...

Dirt Rally and Project Cars on a high end PC look better IMO but for PS4 (or any platform for that matter), DC looks amazing
 
H

HotHamBoy

Member
Gear VR manages something between PS1 and PS2 graphics and uses some tricky pre-rendered backgrounds to further enhance the presentation. I imagine with the companion box the PS4 should be able to do quite a bit better since it isn't doing a lot of the additional processing a phone is doing outside of Oculus.

People who say the box isn't making the PS4 more powerful are technically correct, but by offloading the additional requirements of VR, the PS4 should be able to approach graphics we see in standard PS4 games with splitscreen. I mean, Battlefront splitscreen looks pretty good and I imagine there's a lot of processing going on there.

Resolution is going to be low, lower than Rift and Vive - which are each lower than the Gear VR, but not that much lower, and i'm very curious to see how the subpixels make a difference in the display. If it truly eliminates the screendoor effect then the image may appear much clearer despite the low resolution.

One issue with PS VR is going to be the inability to iterate at the pace of competitors. Other headsets will release new models every year but the PSVR will be locked into its launch form for a few years. If Rift and Vive get significantly better come next year people will probably start to drop PSVR.

Unlike other retro devices, it's not a matter of graphics and wow factor as it is one of comfort. You can play early gen consoles and enjoy them without discomfort. No one is going to want to use early gen VR ever again once the technical solutions for comfort and immersion arrive.
 
B

Blanquito

Member
Durante said:
THE BOX DOES NOT DO RENDERING.

The reason it will work on the PS4 with roughly half the specs of the baseline Oculus suggested system is a combination of
  • Somewhat lower resolution.
  • More strenuous games probably targeting 60 FPS with two reprojection steps per rendered frame, rather than a strict 90 FPS with reprojection on the PC HMDs. (This has a number of possible artifacts, but they are most apparent with lateral movement)
  • Lower graphical fidelity. (e.g. fewer polys, simpler shaders, fewer alpha effects, whatever)
Click to expand...

The myth of the box lives on and grows larger. :/

In addition to what Durante said above, it has been said by a VR developer that PSVR is using some techniques to help reduce the render target

DieH@rd said:
Two interesting reddit posts from user yantraVR who is member of dev team Innervison Games who made early Oculus game Ethereon [adventure game]:


yantraVR: "PSVR is extremely close to being on par with Vive and the Rift w/ a gtx970 based on the tests I've done. The team from Epic (Nick & Tom) have also stated the same in at least one of their VR Twitch streams. If your app runs at 90Hz on a PC with a gtx970 then you should be very close to 60 on the ps4. And with the 120Hz reprojection applied it's glassy smooth."

penprog: "Do you know how they do it? They have to sacrifice something."

yantraVR: "Yes, I do! In brief, the PSVR only requires about 1/4th of the render target size that the Vive requires. This has a lot to do with the display they are using that can run a 60Hz game at 120Hz (in addition to the 90Hz mode). So comparing the PSVR at 60Hz>120Hz to the Vive at 90Hz:

Vive = 457 million pixels/sec (1512x1680x2x90)
PSVR = ~100 million (1920x1080x60 - ~20%*)

*The ~20% is accounting for some additional (classified) techniques that further reduce the render target size.

There are other things to consider as well, if you want to go further. For example, the PS4 has hardly any driver overhead compared to Windows so it's a fully dedicated gaming system that can focus purely on performance. For example, the draw calls on the PS4 are faster than with dx11 which is something that a lot of people don't realize.

They have also started beefing up their small conversion box unit with processing power to help do some heavy lifting."

http://vrfocus.com/archives/26207/y...close-to-being-on-par-with-vive-and-the-rift/
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/3vnce8/51_titles_announced_for_playstation_vr_for_now/


Here is one of talks from Epic games about porting Showdown VR demo to Morpheus [there was another one where they talked more in-depth about it]:
http://www.twitch.tv/unrealengine/v/7616153?t=21m52s


Also, Vive does not have 1512x1680-per-eye screens, but it seems that it requrires devs to hit that render target.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=183100265#post183100265
Click to expand...
 
cheezcake

cheezcake

Member
Blanquito said:
The myth of the box lives on and grows larger. :/

In addition to what Durante said above, it has been said by a VR developer that PSVR is using some techniques to help reduce the render target
Click to expand...

Eh there's some weird logic there, and if you keep reading the reddit thread that post gets deconstructed quickly.

1. "PSVR is extremely close to being on par with Vive and the Rift w/ a gtx970 based on the tests I've done".

But then he goes onto say that that's because of lower framerate and resolution, I mean those aren't throwaway things. It's like saying XB1 and PS4 are on par because XB1 games running at 900p perform roughly the same as PS4 games running at 1080p. Let's assume he means the reprojection works so well that 60->120fps gives the same experience as a native 90fps, but we already factually know this level of reprojection causes artefacting in any non-rotational movement of the head, AND that the tech exists on Rift anyway. (I'm sure Vive will have it too)

2. "yantraVR: "Yes, I do! In brief, the PSVR only requires about 1/4th of the render target size that the Vive requires. This has a lot to do with the display they are using that can run a 60Hz game at 120Hz (in addition to the 90Hz mode). So comparing the PSVR at 60Hz>120Hz to the Vive at 90Hz:

Vive = 457 million pixels/sec (1512x1680x2x90)
PSVR = ~100 million (1920x1080x60 - ~20%*)

*The ~20% is accounting for some additional (classified) techniques that further reduce the render target size."

Well I mean again, it's not like you're getting anywhere near the same quality on the PS4 in this scenario. Much lower resolution and 60->120 reprojection is not equivalent to 90 native, and while I don't know much about this area from that reddit post it seems the reason Vive wants you to hit that render target per eye is to greatly reduce barrel distortion. Plus someone correct me if I'm wrong, but given you have a Vive or a Rift is it not just possible to reduce render resolution of the VR game you're playing if you can't hit required performance at say that crazy Vive render target?

3. "There are other things to consider as well, if you want to go further. For example, the PS4 has hardly any driver overhead compared to Windows so it's a fully dedicated gaming system that can focus purely on performance. For example, the draw calls on the PS4 are faster than with dx11 which is something that a lot of people don't realize."

This is true, but draw calls are one element of the pipeline. And it's been established for a while that the way more powerful CPU's you find in gaming computers (compared to the PS4) sort of nullify this advantage. Not accounting for DX12 which seems to increase draw call performance a fair amount anyway.

TLDR; "PSVR is extremely close to being on par with Vive and the Rift w/ a gtx970 based on the tests I've done*".

*And by on par I mean if you turn down the settings enough
 
B

Brad Grenz

Member
PS VR games will simply target a visual spec they can achieve at 60+ fps. The thing about VR is it doesn't need to look "real". Expect "cyberspace" type visuals which are incredibly achievable, in addition to other stylized techniques. You can already see that with Rez or the new Battlezone game.
 
S

serversurfer

Member
Durante said:
THE BOX DOES NOT DO RENDERING.

The reason it will work on the PS4 with roughly half the specs of the baseline Oculus suggested system is a combination of
  • Somewhat lower resolution.
  • More strenuous games probably targeting 60 FPS with two reprojection steps per rendered frame, rather than a strict 90 FPS with reprojection on the PC HMDs. (This has a number of possible artifacts, but they are most apparent with lateral movement)
  • Lower graphical fidelity. (e.g. fewer polys, simpler shaders, fewer alpha effects, whatever)
Click to expand...
Oh, they are still using reprojection on PC? I figured they were, but people kept saying they'd abandoned it, but I assumed they'd just disabled frame duping for lack of viable targets rather than abandoning the technique completely, and folks just got confused.
 
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