Zombie James
Banned
Optical media still costs pennies to press. Flash is nowhere close.
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GameStop (circa May 27th): NX will have physical media
- Thread starter -Pyromaniac-
- Start date
Optical media still costs pennies to press. Flash is nowhere close.
OrbitalBeard
Member
There are ways for Nintendo to make this not much of an issue for third parties if they're so inclined.
I'm not "Team Cartridge" as I don't know if I can see it actually happening, but it's certainly not a completely ludicrous idea either.
Pokemaniac
Member
Carts would only use flash for save data. The actual game would be on significantly cheaper ROM memory.
Dark Cloud
Member
Wouldn't Nintendo save money by not having a disc drive per system? I mean that's extra money they can use.
Modern mask-ROM based game cards (as we're hardly talking about N64 style cartridges here) would have the following advantages:
- Considerably higher sequential read speeds than discs, and matching (or potentially exceeding) HDD sequential reads
- Several orders of magnitude higher non-sequential read speeds than either discs or HDDs
- Capacity at least matching BD-ROM, probably exceeding BD-XL in the long run
- Game card slot is a far cheaper component than a Blu-Ray drive
- Removing the disc drive means a much smaller console, which reduces logistical costs considerably
- Removing the disc drive means removing the most common point of failure in the console, reducing warranty cost
- Games can be run directly off the game card, without mandatory installs
- No mandatory installs means no need for a large capacity hard-drive, and a lower-capacity, but faster, pool of flash memory can be used instead
- No HDD means a smaller console, and further reduced logistical costs
- No HDD means removing the second most common point of failure, so more reduced warranty costs
- If both home console and handheld share the same library, customer confusion is reduced considerably if they use the same game media
- If both home console and handheld share the same library, logistical costs and inventory risk are heavily reduced by shipping a single version of the game rather than two separate versions
Based on the trajectory of game card capacity from DS and 3DS, 128GB cards should be technically feasible in 2017 (although, presumably, most or all games would ship on much smaller cards). From a technological perspective, game cards are superior to discs in every single way. The only negative against them is the cost of the media itself, but unless someone here works for Nintendo or Macronix, none of us have the slightest idea what that cost would be, and it's entirely possible that the positives above (including substantial savings on the console itself) could make it a sensible financial decision, even accounting for a need to part-subsidise the cards for third parties.
wonderful103
Member
$40 or so per console.
32GB would be enough; most Nintendo games are far smaller. If Nintendo charges $40 for 4GB 3DS carts, they could surely charge $60 for 32-64GB. Keep in mind that 3DS card tech is over 5 years old at this point so Nintendo could well make the new tech NX cards $50 to split the difference between current handheld and console prices yet still turn a profit. A discless console would also help cut manufacturing, repair, and shipping costs while also serving Nintendo's low power consumption goals. More resources could be diverted to processing power and still profit on hardware sales.
Would actually be cool. Much cooler than buying amiibo for in game items... as basically physical DLC.
A figurine in every purchase. But space to placd to put em... that is another question. Haha
Wandering Robot
Member
That's all pretty interesting, thanks. We know Nintendo is not a company to ball from risks, so it wouldn't be wild of them to go with cartridges. I guess GameStop is cool wth whatever so long as they keep making money from it, natch.
Apples and oranges. Your phone is with you everywhere you go, doesn't have 50GB installs, and is seen as more of a device that plays some games. Nobody buys a phone as a dedicated gaming device.
Digital only consoles are likely the future but it will be a disaster until the retailer margins and shipping and manufacturing costs are taken out of the digital prices.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Mr. Pointy
Member
Nintendo sell download codes for games on little eShop style cards in Japan at retail. They probably could push a digital only console down the track some time in the future without it being more expensive. Obviously, there would have to be something in it for second hand game retailers.
Graphics Horse
Member
Consoles released in 2017 with UHD UMD
I think he was decrying consoles as digital only devices being a disaster to him.
Nooooooo
Calm Mind
Member
Like a voice of reason among the cacophony.
NESpowerhouse
Perhaps he's wondering why someone would shoot a man before throwing him out of a plane.
Would a 50GB cartridge be more or less expensive to produce than a 50GB Blu-ray disc?
Nobody's makes cartridges sound sexier and more logical than you, Thraktor. <3
More expensive.
flatearthpandas
Member
A digital-only Nintendo console would be a hard sell for even the most die-hard Nintendo fans imo. I don't think anyone ever expected there to be no physical media.
Valkyr1983
Banned
Lol no, I don't play phone games
I own a few digital PS4 games but only PS+ freebies or games less than 10
Anything over 10 bucks and it has to be physical
SwiftDeath
Member
You're going to look so silly when Nintendo announces that the NX is powered by blood magic
So silly
Calm Mind
Member
You are deluding yourself if you think Nintendo is doing internal storage. Even internal power is off the table.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Internals in general. It's a cloud system. No controller even.
Strong post by Thraktor.
I'd also say that if NX is to be Nintendo's one true platform going forward, where all future Nintendo devices will share this library, it makes even more sense long into the future that it does today.
The main negative of the increased unit cost will decrease over time, whereas the disadvantages of disc based media will only become more and more significant.
Even if Nintendo do have to bite the bullet on increased costs in the short term, it's entirely feasible that they'd reap lots of benefits long into the future.
Suggesting discs is the only feasible option is fairly backward thinking. Whilst it might make sense today, it doesn't necessarily make sense for the future.
I'd also say that if NX is to be Nintendo's one true platform going forward, where all future Nintendo devices will share this library, it makes even more sense long into the future that it does today.
The main negative of the increased unit cost will decrease over time, whereas the disadvantages of disc based media will only become more and more significant.
Even if Nintendo do have to bite the bullet on increased costs in the short term, it's entirely feasible that they'd reap lots of benefits long into the future.
Suggesting discs is the only feasible option is fairly backward thinking. Whilst it might make sense today, it doesn't necessarily make sense for the future.
Oh, cartridges are pretty sexy without me.
Seriously, though, all I was saying is that there are positives to using game cards, but it's not a clear cut case in either direction. We only know (or, more accurately, can make lightly educated guesses at) one side of the equation, and we have no idea what the other side (the cost) is. Without that it's impossible to say with any degree of confidence whether game cards or discs would be the more sensible route.
Discs are too fragile to me. Always hated them. Especially with young relatives getting their hands on them when you're not home. I feel more comfortable with carts.
Another advantage is not needed huge game cases to contain the carts, so less shelf space used, which allows retailers to show more game titles on the shelf.
Schnozberry
Member
Macronix seems like they are expecting quite a bit of business from Nintendo in their 4th Quarter this year. Enough that they expect it to be profitable, where it is usually their slowest quarter. They are also moving forward with their die shrink from 75nm NOR Flash used in the 3DS to a newer 32nm process, which would speed up the climb up to larger capacities.
Whether they are selling Nintendo cartridges or flash for some other reason is unknown, but there is enough smoke there for speculation.
Yeah. Some people say its just them beefing up 3DS carts for the holidays and Pokémon and stuff.
I don't know much about macronix though. It certainly fits within the NX timeline.
Schnozberry
Member
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
it ain't 1996 anymore
Pokemaniac
Member
Based on what, exactly? Cartridges in 2017 != cartridges in 1996.
geordiemp
Member
You realise he is halo dev right ? I am sure hes got some decent tech reasons.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
They could also save a lot of shipping/packaging money by making the game cases a lot smaller, seeing as it's not going to have a cd in and that they don't print manuals anymore. 3DS sized or smaller.
geordiemp
Member
Most games third party lets say game X is 45 GB. Game C has a 15 GB day 1 patch.
That 15 GB must replace the original code on the disk. So game loads from disk to Hard drive, and then patch overwrites the hard drive data.
Note this could work on Cartridge as well, but only if each cartridge just loads to a hard drive otherwise he is right, say goodbye to any western third party support.
Remember, games on Ps4 play from Hard drive, games dont run from Blu ray, the disk just saves you downloading allot of the game.
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
Regarding Macronix, their 2016 Q2 Quarterly Audio Webcast and Teleconference will happen on July 28. Perhaps we'll get an update on their business related to NX then.
Source: http://www.macronix.com/en-us/InvestorRelations/FinancialResults/Pages/QuarterlyResults.aspx
Source: http://www.macronix.com/en-us/InvestorRelations/FinancialResults/Pages/QuarterlyResults.aspx
That isn't how it works. PS3, 360, Wii U, Vita and 3DS handle patches just fine without installing. The latter two with cartridges already.
balladofwindfishes
Member
The 3DS supports patching with carts but without a hard drive.
geordiemp
Member
Oh I agree, I remember small patches on 360 (cant remember my Wii lol) and games running from disk. Thats when Patch was a ...patch...
But this gen, those 15 GB patches, different ball game, they are almost re download the whole bloody game. God I have downloaded 30 GB patches...lol
Only way that works is if games run from HD otherwise its no major western support imo.
LordOfChaos
Member
Would cartridges still use batteries like old Gameboy ones, that would sometimes die and I think the data would be lost?
I'm assuming no, as rewritable memory holds it's own without that these days, i.e SD cards.
I'm assuming no, as rewritable memory holds it's own without that these days, i.e SD cards.
Licensing, manufacturing costs, storage, manufacturing SCHEDULES and more (what happens when your modern AAA game gets delayed or needs a huge title update on day one - may not be popular but that's the reality in the footprint of today's software). Unless they offer open manufacture - SD cards for example, but then you still have cost and storage to deal with. Not to mention title updates - would they sit on an HDD? In which case why have cartridges if the data has to be read off an HDD anyway? Optical media is much cheaper to print.
And that also means making "versions" of the game based on ROM footprint rather than the "natural" footprint of the game.
All of these can be overcome, but all of them are unattractive to third parties. Nintendo stands to benefit the most from that approach.
Anyway, it's speculation about speculation at this point.
Pokemaniac
Member
Wii U and 3DS already solved this problem without any need for full game installs. Patches contain only the delta, and files in the patch can supersede files on the disc/cartridge.
He's not a PR person.