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Is anyone voting for Donald Trump?

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tuxfool

Banned
If the American people hadn't thrown their votes away on Wilson, Roosevelt and Taft, President Eugene Debs would have never occupied Haiti.

There is a margin of difference (namely that of time) to holding a little girl in Flint responsible for the (non)actions of her ancestors. Also we're all guilty of holding collectives responsible regardless of whether those individuals supported the actions of their representatives, but there is a degree of granularity involved especially when assigning punishment.

We might as well hold present day Germans responsible for Nazism, even the immigrants.
 
I agree that this year isn't the one to do it. But overall I think that a third party option is something that is unfairly criticised to the point that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

I can generally agree with that, we definitely need more choices and it is readily apparent that the current system doesn't work. Look no further at the past six years of obstructionism, if we had three parties the chances of that would decrease as they would be forced to actually work across the isle.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Honestly, I would be much more supportive of a third party candidacy if the political climate wasn't so extremely toxic. 2016 is not the year to do this, the costs are to high to take the chance with a Trump presidency. He isn't a normal candidate and he is pushing some of the most divisive and dangerous ideas than anything else we have seen from a major party.
True or not, people always say this in the heat of the elections though, which was the paradox he's referencing.

It takes a billionaire spending his own money (Perot) or someone taking advantage of a party collapsing in on itself over racial issues/crime and a war (George Wallace) to be able to break through and no longer be stuck in the paradox he outlined.

That's why Johnson wanted 15% in the polls and/or to just to get in a debate. He'd still lose but perhaps he would actually get 15% of the vote in November instead of the 2% he will get. Perhaps it would encourage others, not even Libertarians but Social Democrats or whatever, in 2020.

Back in 1980, when Reagan was still seen by the media (and thus public) as Trump is seen now by this board, John Anderson was polling at 20+% as an independent candidate. When Reagan and Anderson debated (Carter refused to attend any debate with Anderson...and the debates were not yet run by the two parties but the League of Women Voters) Anderson's poll numbers collapsed because people saw Reagan wasn't a monster and as the Republican candidate likely to win. Reagan finally agreed to debate just Carter, two days before the election, it undercut Anderson completely and doomed Carter for good.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
Don't the vast majority of voters vote for their own self interests?


To me, it seems more like it's mutated from voting in their own self interest, to voting against minorities. Anything that could potentially be seen as benefiting minorities gets shot down, even if that means it hurts them in the process. It's depressing. To be fair, that may not be true, but fuck me if it doesn't feel like it looking at how many pieces of legislature that could potentially improve the lives of EVERYONE in America gets shut down.
 
B

bomb

Unconfirmed Member
To me, it seems more like it's mutated from voting in their own self interest, to voting against minorities. Anything that could potentially be seen as benefiting minorities gets shot down, even if that means it hurts them in the process. It's depressing. To be fair, that may not be true, but fuck me if it doesn't feel like it looking at how many pieces of legislature that could potentially improve the lives of EVERYONE in America gets shut down.

Yeah but why should I care? They have been discussing the same topics for 40 years. Race, Religion, Sexuality, Abortions, etc. If they cannot come up with decisions on any of these topics by now then why should I jump in with my support? It doesn't matter if I vote for a good cause if nothing changes. It's the same thing every single year. How about politician term limits? How about when we add money to the education bucket, other money isn't taken out?
 
Yeah but why should I care? They have been discussing the same topics for 40 years. Race, Religion, Sexuality, Abortions, etc. If they cannot come up with decisions on any of these topics by now then why should I jump in with my support? It doesn't matter if I vote for a good cause if nothing changes. It's the same thing every single year. How about politician term limits? How about when we add money to the education bucket, other money isn't taken out?
Every gay American can get married now because the Supreme Court said so. Everything can change at any moment in politics and society.
 
You guys are so blind to your american privilege its surreal.
I know you're banned so this is useless, but I think many Americans acknowledge that we have it better than a good amount of countries. That doesn't mean we should twiddle our thumbs and refuse to do anything about the bad parts of our country.
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
Yeah but why should I care? They have been discussing the same topics for 40 years. Race, Religion, Sexuality, Abortions, etc. If they cannot come up with decisions on any of these topics by now then why should I jump in with my support? It doesn't matter if I vote for a good cause if nothing changes. It's the same thing every single year. How about politician term limits? How about when we add money to the education bucket, other money isn't taken out?
But stuff has changed thanks to SCOTUS giving the a-okay for gay marriage. Do you really want Trump appointing judges?
 
Yeah but why should I care? They have been discussing the same topics for 40 years. Race, Religion, Sexuality, Abortions, etc. If they cannot come up with decisions on any of these topics by now then why should I jump in with my support? It doesn't matter if I vote for a good cause if nothing changes. It's the same thing every single year. How about politician term limits? How about when we add money to the education bucket, other money isn't taken out?
If you think nothing has changed in the past 40 years due to the Supreme Court I really don't know what to tell you.


There are so many examples of the good it can enact or the bad it can enact. Trump's VP wants to repeal Roe v. Wade for example.


Even if you don't give a shit about minority rights, if you're for things like increased restrictions on politicians then the Hobby Lobby case would drive you up a wall, and appointing liberal justices would get that bullshit overturned.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Touche, but did that change the makeup of the court in terms of positioning on issues. I'm trying to remember but I don't think it altered the split.
If John Kerry had won in 2004, and Sandra Day O'Connor punted her retirement to 2008, the court would have been a "liberal" 5-4 majority by default. (With Kennedy and O'Connor as half the "conservative" bloc.) 6-3 if she still retired.

Unless of course Kerry appointed conservatives.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
Yeah but why should I care? They have been discussing the same topics for 40 years. Race, Religion, Sexuality, Abortions, etc. If they cannot come up with decisions on any of these topics by now then why should I jump in with my support? It doesn't matter if I vote for a good cause if nothing changes. It's the same thing every single year. How about politician term limits? How about when we add money to the education bucket, other money isn't taken out?

If you don't think things have changed, then I suggest looking into the state of America if you want to weigh in on it with your vote. Inaction gets nothing done. Period. Just because things haven't changed at a lightning fast rate doesn't mean it's not worth it to contribute your voting power and move that needle just a little bit more towards change.

I don't personally benefit from LGBT rights, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to do my part to try and pass legislature that treats them like every other human being in the country. When I was younger, I used to have that cynical, "Nothing changes, so why bother!" attitude, then I opened my eyes and did some research. Things change, but they take time to change. It's frustrating, and it's arduous work trying to knock some sense into the stubborn knuckleheads, but we get there eventually. And just because we've made a little headway doesn't mean we should then sit on our laurels and say, "Well, good enough, I guess."

And yes, the topics that have been discussed for 40 years are still being discussed now, but guess what? Most of us weren't in a position for our vote to make a difference 40 years ago. I'm 37 years old. I've been able to vote since I was 18, and truth told, I didn't exercise that right until I was well into my 20's. I wish I had been more pro-active in lending my voice to the discussion, instead of too cool for schooling, popping my collar and saying, "Not my problem." Because it was my problem. It's all of our problems, and even if it doesn't seem like our voices are making a difference, we still need to shout out loud.

The 18 year olds of today aren't the same 18 year olds that grew up in a more volatile time period where they had to fight tooth and nail for things like Civil Rights, or risk being hosed and lynched, true, but things still aren't where we should be. I'm black, my wife is white. Our children will be mixed, and it kills me thinking that they will be growing up in a world that values their lives less than another human being. It'll be even harder for them if they're LGBT. So I do what little I can to try and make this country just that little bit more tolerable.

You're free to do whatever you like with your time and rights and privileges. I just want to encourage people to think a little bit more outside of themselves when it comes to the well-being of this country, because it really does affect you as much as the next person.
 

benjipwns

Banned
And yes, the topics that have been discussed for 40 years are still being discussed now, but guess what? Most of us weren't in a position for our vote to make a difference 40 years ago. I'm 37 years old. I've been able to vote since I was 18, and truth told, I didn't exercise that right until I was well into my 20's. I wish I had been more pro-active in lending my voice to the discussion, instead of too cool for schooling, popping my collar and saying, "Not my problem." Because it was my problem. It's all of our problems, and even if it doesn't seem like our voices are making a difference, we still need to shout out loud.
Again, voting isn't shouting loud. Merely voting is saying nothing. It's private and secret and falls in a big tub of millions.

I am sure that you opined on politics in those years you didn't vote and continue to on days that aren't Election Day. That's your voice in politics. Not voting.

Voting is an axe, not a scalpel. Hillary won't know why the 60 some million people voted for her. They certainly won't vote for her because they approve of every single one of her policy proposals. How many people will be voting for her simply because she's a female, or simply because she's a Democrat, or simply because she's not Donald J. Trump? That doesn't inform her as to what policy to pursue and in what order and to what magnitude.

That was a mistake Obama's staff made, health care was important, but not as important as he thought in comparison to the economy. Carter made similar mistakes. Clinton did. All the Presidents have. Hillary or Trump will too.

It's one reason lobbying works as it does. It's not just the money. It's that they're constantly advocating.

The 18 year olds of today aren't the same 18 year olds that grew up in a more volatile time period where they had to fight tooth and nail for things like Civil Rights, or risk being hosed and lynched, true, but things still aren't where we should be.
To be fair most 18 year olds didn't risk that. Especially whites. They didn't even protest Vietnam en masse.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
Again, voting isn't shouting loud. Merely voting is saying nothing. It's private and secret and falls in a big tub of millions.

I am sure that you opined on politics in those years you didn't vote and continue to on days that aren't Election Day. That's your voice in politics. Not voting.

Voting is an axe, not a scalpel. Hillary won't know why the 60 some million people voted for her. They certainly won't vote for her because they approve of every single one of her policy proposals. How many people will be voting for her simply because she's a female, or simply because she's a Democrat, or simply because she's not Donald J. Trump? That doesn't inform her as to what policy to pursue and in what order and to what magnitude.

That was a mistake Obama's staff made, health care was important, but not as important as he thought in comparison to the economy. Carter made similar mistakes. Clinton did. All the Presidents have. Hillary or Trump will too.

It's one reason lobbying works as it does. It's not just the money. It's that they're constantly advocating.


To be fair most 18 year olds didn't risk that. Especially whites. They didn't even protest Vietnam en masse.

I think I know myself a little bit more than you do. I didn't opine about politics during non-election years. I didn't care at all. I didn't think it mattered, and I was overall just ignoring the issues. That was the problem. I wasted my younger voting years because I was young, stupid, and ignorant. When I got older and realized that being cynical and throwing my hands up in the air and saying, "Well, that's just the way it is," was worse than casting a vote for a representative that may or may not win, I started to take a bigger interest. I don't vote in the "big" elections like it's some kind of sporting event. I vote any and every chance I get on any and every ballot that I think affects the lives of not only me and my loved ones, but others as well. I want this country to do better by all of us, not just me and mine. A lot of young people are the same. At 18+, they're often absorbed with other things in life. Graduating high school and looking at "what's next?" I tried to join the Air Force, and when that fell through, I moved to a new state and looked into college. That didn't work out so well, so I got into the work force, making chump change and struggling to make ends meet. It's easy for the realities of the real world to send politics to a distant recess of your mind. It doesn't seem important when you're trying to keep a roof over your head and food in your belly. To be completely honest, it wasn't until I got a stable job and the worries of survival started to go in the back-burner that I've been able to really assess the political landscape and start to think, "What can I do to help?"

What other people do with their vote isn't up to me. I can't say what their motivations are, and that's fine. That's on them. I can only hope that, at the very least, they're voting for responsible reasons. I hope that they're voting for the candidate that represents them as best as possible given the two party system we're locked in. I'm voting for Hillary because she's not Donald Trump. I do think she'd be a good President, but I'm kind of in a bind with this election. Hillary wasn't my ideal candidate, but she's who we've ended up with, and she's not Donald Trump. Trump is a horrible, hateful person, who is actively trying to make lives worse for the people of this country, in particular minorities and Muslims. I can't support that. So yeah, Clinton is my pick. And then I hope that by getting more involved in the smaller scale elections over the next four years, the political party that represents my interests better can gain traction. If my efforts amount to nothing, and nothing changes, well, I tried, at least. I didn't just give up in frustration and disappointment. Being a minority in this country means my options are limited. They just are. I can only do so much, but I'm going to do it the best I can, and hope that it's enough.

Our political system is far from ideal, but currently, what alternatives do we have but to try and lobby and vote for change? I'd love it of voters had more control over the direction the country is going in, but that's not presently the case. We're a country of 322 million people. It's going to be hard for all of us to get some perspective and stop the petty bickering. It would help if elections weren't treated like the Super Bowl.

In 2008, I thought McCain was a pretty good candidate. I thought he loved the country, and wanted what was best for it, but his policies weren't always in line with my own. Obama was more my speed. It was a difficult election for me, because I thought both men would be good Presidents. In the end, I voted for Obama. He edged it out more. Romney vs. Obama was a lot easier for me. I didn't vibe at all with Romney's policies on most things, and Obama had proven himself to be a capable President, if not a struggling one. It didn't make sense to me to boot him out of office for Romney. In the case of Clinton and Trump, it's a no-fucking-brainer. Trump is a buffoon and a carnival barker. He gives no shits about the people of this country, and "President Trump" is a title he wants simply to say he was President of the United States, and not because he actually wants to do right by this country. He's also a racist, misogynist, and bioted man. He'd be an absolutely God awful President. While I don't think that charm, class, and grace are the only things that matter when you're President, they certainly fucking help, especially when you're dealing with leaders on the world stage. Trump doesn't have that. He treats every public encounter as another opportunity to promote himself and his brand.

I can't see him navigating the world political stage in a way that will have America coming out of it in a good way. At least Ms. Clinton has the experience, brains, respect, and connections to do this job better than Trump could ever hope to imagine. He would get absolutely destroyed out there in the real world. He's enjoying this aspect of campaigning. The pointing fingers, the shaking fists, the loud yelling. Because all attention is on him. I imagine he's going to want to quit being President the moment he sits his hateful ass down in the Oval Office and actually has to do work.
 
Actually, all americans today enjoy what life they have (be it good or "bad", because it is american bad, not real world bad) because of the facist actions of their intelligence agencies and international policies throughout history.

So yeah, no tears for Flint here.

Hey, I know you're banned, but make sure you don't look while crossing the road next time you're out and about.
 
the republicans have convinced a lot of people to vote against their own self interests out of fear and bigotry.

Yep. Needs to be reiterated in every thread like this:
LeeAtwatersFamousSpeech.jpg

quote-i-ll-tell-you-what-s-at-the-bottom-of-it-if-you-can-convince-the-lowest-white-man-he-lyndon-b-johnson-107-70-60.jpg

Politicians have known the score for a long while now
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
Yep. Needs to be reiterated in every thread like this:

We've been saying this shit for years, and most people were just, fingers in ears, "Not listening, not listening! Stop race baiting!" It's maddening. They thought the strategy was so smart and subtle, but to the minorities, it was crystal clear what they were doing to us, and we've been trying to get people to listen and empathize for decades.

"Black Wall Street," was a huge eye-opener for me. Not something I was taught about in history class in Milwaukee, that's for sure.
 

BstnRich

Member
The answer is a unwaivering no. The best thing I can say about Trump is that he is a TV celebrity. He's insulted people across almost every spectrum and is entirely arrogant. He will be infinitely worse for this country (and world) than W.

I do have a sneaking suspicion he will win, but I can't wait until to see the look on Trump supporters faces when Kayne 2020 rolls around.
 

benjipwns

Banned
I think I know myself a little bit more than you do. I didn't opine about politics during non-election years. I didn't care at all. I didn't think it mattered, and I was overall just ignoring the issues. That was the problem.

...

In 2008, I thought McCain was a pretty good candidate. I thought he loved the country, and wanted what was best for it, but his policies weren't always in line with my own. Obama was more my speed. It was a difficult election for me, because I thought both men would be good Presidents.
It shouldn't have been. Johm McCain was a well known criminal slimeball fuckup who despised clear constitutional rights and worshiped at the altar of an authoritarian bigot. He would have been an even worse President than Obama probably.

there is no way I am letting Trump get his hand on nukes
How far are you willing to go?
 

SURGEdude

Member
I would vote for nearly anyone over Trump. Hillary is a sleazeball, but she's the devil we know and a smart informed person who will safeguard her legacy in office.

DJ Trump is a sociopathic anal fissure.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
At this point I'm more than willing to take it just to see the states collapse. From all the shit you guys have been doing to other nations, you deserve worse than Trump.
But if Trump is elected, other nations will suffer too. Even if you are such a sociopath that you'd have no empathy for the American people who had nothing to do with wanting Trump in office, that'd still be counter-productive.

So yeah, no tears for Flint here.
....Welp
 

RPGCrazied

Member
Sorry to bump this, but specially after tonight debate, nobody with a working brain would vote for Trump, or lack human emotions.
 
Trump brings down the quality of debate so much that we cannot even see Hillary really work it. She gets to execute an effortless strategy and it works wonders.
 
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