I don't buy their intimation that innocent until proven guilty has no place outside the courtroom.
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Rape/abuse claims taken at face value vs victim-blame and shaming.
- Thread starter ZombiePlatypus
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I don't buy their intimation that innocent until proven guilty has no place outside the courtroom.
That's true.
In my country, the teachers' union isn't really strong for cases like these, afaik (I'm a teacher). And even if it's possible to work in a different school, once rumors are out, you better leave that career. Can't teach with so much distrust in the room.
Just like men are never victims of domestic abuse, right? Or do you mean the fact that it's relatively rare means we should assume it never happens? It's not difficult to find cases of false accusations despite their frequency being dwarfed by accusations that are downplayed or ignored.
All accusations of rape, whether they be from men or women, should be taken seriously but not presumed to be true, just like victims shouldn't be presumed to be lying. It's not like it's hard to do both.
Straight Edge
Member
Other people's action are not my business. Me taking a stance on a case I know little about doesn't benefit the accused or the victim.
The accuser has no more right to be 'believed' than anyone else, but all rape claims should be investigated seriously and thoroughly with the intent of uncovering as much of the truth as possible and determine what evidence exists to support a case being taken to trial. The first duty is always to the truth, not to supporting or believing one side or the other. Malicious false accusations may only make up a small percentage of accusations (technically, like all rape stats, no-one knows one way or the other, but given how false accusations are rare for any crime, it's unlikely to be different here) but the accused deserves as much right to defend himself without presumption as in any other case, and the accuser deserves the same right to have their claim treated with the seriousness it deserves as for any other crime.
Innocent until proven guilty for the accused and support the accuser regardless of the outcome, because of how difficult it is to get a rape conviction. I don't know if the public can do that, but that's how it should be.
I'm reminded of a story about how a cheerleader accused a member of the basketball team of rape. The rape charge ended up getting dismissed, and she was then kicked off the cheerleader team for refusing to cheer for him when he went up for a free throw. Now, it's understandable to not kick out the player when it wasn't proven, but the lack of empathy toward the accuser there is ridiculous. It's not difficult to work something out, she was even willing to cheer for the team as a whole, just not him personally.
I'm reminded of a story about how a cheerleader accused a member of the basketball team of rape. The rape charge ended up getting dismissed, and she was then kicked off the cheerleader team for refusing to cheer for him when he went up for a free throw. Now, it's understandable to not kick out the player when it wasn't proven, but the lack of empathy toward the accuser there is ridiculous. It's not difficult to work something out, she was even willing to cheer for the team as a whole, just not him personally.
I was writing something, but this about covers it. Well put.
Ordinaryundone
Member
That's true. And it's also not the public's responsibility to pass any sort of judgement on someone especially on the basis of several public tweets from the accuser. Let it go to trial and see where it goes from there, until then he SHOULD be treated as if he's innocent.
I've never heard of a teacher abandoning their career over rumors. Shit there are rumors about every teacher. There would be no teachers at all if they packed it in over every rumor.
PataHikari
Banned
The idea that a rape accusation can ruin a mans life is hilariously false. We treat actual rapists with kid gloves, laugh with them and hi-five them.
Meanwhile the woman who dared to come out and admit she was raped is instantly a slut, a whore, a liar. Her life is forever ruined. We treat being accused of being raped as a more awful thing then actually being raped.
So no, I have no problem believing women who come out and say they've been raped. Even if it turns out not to be true, it's not like the accused will suffer any.
Meanwhile the woman who dared to come out and admit she was raped is instantly a slut, a whore, a liar. Her life is forever ruined. We treat being accused of being raped as a more awful thing then actually being raped.
So no, I have no problem believing women who come out and say they've been raped. Even if it turns out not to be true, it's not like the accused will suffer any.
Inferno313
Banned
Frankly, "innocent until proven guilty" is a legal principal for a court of law. Not for the opinion's of individuals or the public. People are allowed to believe what they want and make their own decision. Unless we're really going to act like Bill Cosby is innocent.
stufte
Member
WTF. Are you serious right now? I should have bolded the entire post, but wow, that's some shit right there.
Here's the problem with just isolating the punishment to avoid to incarceration, and additionally, to encouraging what essentially boils down to vigilantism. The language here implies that the person who was deemed not guilty, and is not being imprisoned should still be subjected to the court of public opinion.
The innocent until proven guilty thing is useless if when someone leaves the courthouse, their life is ruined and they are harassed and pestered until, well who knows what happens.
Is it okay for a court to find someone not guilty, but to make their lives terrible outside of the courtroom? I know this is focused on rape, but in general - is this the right way to deal with justice, legal or social?
If it's okay in some cases, but not in others, who is the arbiter?
What better ground to base your opinion on than the evidence in a court of law?
PataHikari
Banned
Of course I am.
Or have you forgotten about the rapist who got 6 months in jail because the judge who didn't want to ruin a mans life? Or the football players who raped a girl on camera and in response the victim got death threats? Or the children who reported being raped but were dismissed by the police as lies told by prostitutes?
SciencePilot
Member
The difference between the court of public opinion and the court of law is something I've been thinking about for a long time.
Of course I agree that we can't formally punish someone without strong proof of wrongdoing. But it's an interesting question whether our personal opinion should be beholden to such a high standard as well. Should I think badly of someone if I feel pretty sure they did something wrong but I don't have formal proof? I'm not really sure.
There's another issue being brought up in this thread about treating the accuser badly, like being very demeaning towards them. Of course we shouldn't do that. We should treat them seriously and supportively and respectfully even if they have no proof. But that doesn't mean we have to throw the accused under the bus immediately with no proof.
Of course I agree that we can't formally punish someone without strong proof of wrongdoing. But it's an interesting question whether our personal opinion should be beholden to such a high standard as well. Should I think badly of someone if I feel pretty sure they did something wrong but I don't have formal proof? I'm not really sure.
There's another issue being brought up in this thread about treating the accuser badly, like being very demeaning towards them. Of course we shouldn't do that. We should treat them seriously and supportively and respectfully even if they have no proof. But that doesn't mean we have to throw the accused under the bus immediately with no proof.
Ordinaryundone
Member
You believe whatever you want about whoever you want. But there is a difference between thinking someone is a rapist and treating them like one if they haven't been convicted. Is it really so important to you that these people immediately receive your disdain that you are unable to wait even a moment for the story to develop?
stufte
Member
I remember those. But I also am not ignoring the majority of the women who are taken seriously or the men that absolutely have their lives ruined just by the mere accusation of rape. wtf is wrong with you?
And you apparently can't grasp that you only know about these cases because they're outrageous enough to make the news in the first place.
first Google result - 17yr old kid committed suicide last year after a false rape accusation. Yup. Hilarious.
I guess I take this a little more personally because I've had two different male friends who lost their virginity by rape and no one took them seriously and they were pressured to never pursue legal action. So the idea that women can't be just as despicable as men, as if false accusations never occur, does not jive well with me.
Wanda/Wander
Member
Innocent until proven guilty, because public witch hunts can lead to some very dark paths.
partyphone
Banned
no one is calling for a witch hunt. just for rape accusations to be taken seriously. if you think they are you're fucking wrong.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
What about these? List of cases with exonerations. Quite a few accused rapists: https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/featured.aspx
Remember- if you are falsely convicted you end up on the sex offender registry. you're marked for life. you will never hold a normal job, your education is basically pointless and the years you spend behind bars can easily ruin your entire life.
I'm disgusted that you try belittle or downplay false rape accusations like its no problem. You do know that falsely accusing someone of rape hurts women who have actually been raped?
it IS on a case by case basis ... but for every Cosby you have Kirk Douglas,Woody Allen, Roman Polansky, Sean Penn, John Travolta, Britney Spears and Bryan Singer doing totally ok
So because you have a personal case of people thinking nobody would believe in then ... you think people would lie that they were raped ?
This makes zero sense
Inferno313
Banned
Yeah. What the hell. If we want to talk about that Mang0 thread, yeah I think he's a fucking abuser. That's my opinion right now, and as I'm not a court of law, or an editor at a newspaper, or anyone with some kind of sway it's ok for me to have that opinion. Does that mean I'm going to harass him, dox him, or anything of the like? Fuck no. Nor would I support or endorse that behavior from others. Because that's also wrong.
AcademicSaucer
Member
In a perfect world the identity of the one being accused wouldnt be public until the trial is over .
RocknRola
Member
Well, as some said innocent until proven guilty can and should be the only scenario as far as the law & court system goes (if said laws & court system are "bent" in a way that only benefits the rapists, then that needs to be fixed first and foremost).
The issue with taking things at face value, in this particular instance, is the baggage it carries (and I'm gonna focus mostly on the rape aspect of it, though it most definitely applies to abusers too) in the form of "it's reputation and damage it causes on a social level".
As for the matter of "reputation and damaged caused "to the accused....well, rape is still one of those extremely foul crimes in society (as it should be), so even in the few cases (which actually do exist) in which the accused is actually innocent that reputation will kinda follow that person for good. It's a shame, but it is what it is. Don't really think we can stop people from second guessing that person moving forward, regardless of being 100% innocent. What I feel should happen in those particular cases is have the "accuser(s)" suffer a heavy punishement. Either monetary or in the form of jail time (both of which I think already do happen) coupled always (100% of the time) with being put into a list similar to that of sex offenders with all it implies (if that doesn't happen already).
In the cases in which the accused are indeed guilty...well, fuck them honestly. Don't wanna be rude, but if someone is truly guilty of raping someone else I couldn't give 2 shits about their reputation and whatever other damages it may cause. I just wanna see them rot in jail, period.
The issue with taking things at face value, in this particular instance, is the baggage it carries (and I'm gonna focus mostly on the rape aspect of it, though it most definitely applies to abusers too) in the form of "it's reputation and damage it causes on a social level".
As for the matter of "reputation and damaged caused "to the accused....well, rape is still one of those extremely foul crimes in society (as it should be), so even in the few cases (which actually do exist) in which the accused is actually innocent that reputation will kinda follow that person for good. It's a shame, but it is what it is. Don't really think we can stop people from second guessing that person moving forward, regardless of being 100% innocent. What I feel should happen in those particular cases is have the "accuser(s)" suffer a heavy punishement. Either monetary or in the form of jail time (both of which I think already do happen) coupled always (100% of the time) with being put into a list similar to that of sex offenders with all it implies (if that doesn't happen already).
In the cases in which the accused are indeed guilty...well, fuck them honestly. Don't wanna be rude, but if someone is truly guilty of raping someone else I couldn't give 2 shits about their reputation and whatever other damages it may cause. I just wanna see them rot in jail, period.
Wanda/Wander
Member
I'm not saying anyone is calling for witch hunts. My point is that rape/abuse accusations can sometimes lead to witch hunts and mob violence, especially with black men in this country.
It doesn't mean that I never believe the accuser.
It doesn't mean that I always believe the defendant.
It means both parties should be treated with the presumption of innocence before any type of ruling is made.
Dude Abides
Banned
Odd how people seem to care about presuming innocence outside a courtroom only when an accusation of rape is involved. The thread about the NYC bomber didn't have a bunch of folks tut-tutting about how he had not yet been convicted, for instance. Strange how that is.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
I feel like gender might be muddying the discussion here a bit. It's absolutely relevant and should be taken into consideration as it's undeniable that *most* cases are male perpetrator with a female victim. But, this makes things even more nuanced and complex as now you have sexism, gender roles and perceptions in society, double standards, etc.
The issue might be easier to tackle and breakdown if it's looked upon as perpetrator and victim first, rather than man and woman. But that's not to say the different stigma and challenges that come with being a given gender in this situation should be downplayed or glossed over.
The issue might be easier to tackle and breakdown if it's looked upon as perpetrator and victim first, rather than man and woman. But that's not to say the different stigma and challenges that come with being a given gender in this situation should be downplayed or glossed over.
When training to be a teacher you get all sorts of advice on avoiding false accusations. No hugs, pats on the back, or other physical contact with students that might be misconstrued. Keep your door open at all times. No electronic contact with students outside of official school channels (official email, edmodo types services, etc). Dont interact with students on social media. If students confide personal issues with you get the guidance councillor involved ASAP.
I would imagine that false accusations that make it to charges are really rare if you follow all of that.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
I think its irresponsible to make judgments without knowing all of the facts first. Rape is unfortunately difficult to prove, since a lot of times victims don't report it immediately and it can turn into a hear-say argument if there's no clear forensic evidence. So its best to be fair to both sides and obviously don't harass anyone.
It is tricky. There's no harm and great benefit in taking claims on face value with regards to the victim, but the potential vilification of an alleged perpetrator can have serious implications regardless of the facts. Total enforced anonymity for the alleged perpetrator seems like the only way to avoid a witch hunt, but those who are accused and guilty of crimes like this can thrive in that anonymity.
Innocent until proven guilty is a responsible stance to hold, but it seems like a platitude given how masses tend to make judgements anyway when it comes to publicised crimes.
Innocent until proven guilty is a responsible stance to hold, but it seems like a platitude given how masses tend to make judgements anyway when it comes to publicised crimes.
Well, our field has become very volatile, to say the least. With many leaving the job long before retirement and also many young guys replacing the old ones. Because the whole village knows the teachers, we're kinda exposed. I guess that's why many teachers are bland, it's a survival strategy. XD
Sure, those things were discussed in training. In practice, it can still easily happen because social interaction is always prone to misunderstanding.kwiston said:
Mind you, most false accusations we have to deal with aren't about sex or rape, they are mostly about grades. And while the teachers win most of these cases, this shit is just tiring and a good reason to change the path of the career.
Prejudice against the accuser is even more impactfull if it is a MAN saying that he was raped. Or people will make jokes that he is gay or that he refused sex. See most GAF threads when a "hot teacher" goes full pedo on boys.
Men being raped is rarer than women, but it is EVEN more unreported because how nobody believes since we live in a society that men must be ALWAYS wanting sex
partyphone
Banned
That's horrible
the really horrible thing is that it is the norm.
Abstrusity
Member
Yes, but if an accusation of rape isn't backed up with evidence, it's an accusation only. And yes, people who are simply accused can get expelled and blacklisted from other schools, lose their livelihoods.
The court of public opinion is where your life takes place regardless. So even if you didn't rape anyone, if the public thinks you did, you'll be hard pressed to live a normal life.
I mean, unless you come from money, and then it's 20 seconds of action and an early release from an already tiny stay at minimum security county jail.
The problem is that we need to balance not-guilty and guilty -- and public opinion is not the way to do it.
Then you go one step further: many cases aren't cut and dried, evidence is lacking because, for whatever reason, it took too long to report. Both parties might have been drunk. Harder to get convictions for what certainly could have happened. And after all of THAT, you still have to deal with the rare false accusation, or the rapist being rich, systemic disbelief in the accuser, and on and on.
But make no mistake, if someone accused you of rape, dragged you into the courtroom to defend yourself, the people around you once you're out of that courtroom have already MADE their decision.
But the courts can't change that. So there's outrage. X college is bad because they let a RAPIST continue going to school -- it doesn't matter if you're guilty or not. X employer is terrible because this RAPIST is working there. So it goes.
And then, you decide to move on. You try to go somewhere else, and if, on a lark, someone googles your name? ALLEGED RAPIST pops up. Who wants to take that risk?
This isn't to say that accusations shouldn't happen, but they really ought to be more private affairs until it's over.
Look no further than Casey Anthony for a prime example of what life is like after a charge where the court of public opinion gets to call the shots. Where is she now, after being acquitted? The community's already made their decision about her. The entire system can do better for the accuser AND the accused.
Innocent until proven guilty is an important concept in the law, absolutely. It's part of the reason that rape is so difficult to prosecute (because consent is hard to disprove) and it has to stay that way. Because of this, the reality is that 99.9% of rapes will not result in any legal punishment. I mean, think about that. There's a crime that exists that has the likely potential of causing long lasting psychological damage (which has lead many to suicide) and if you happen to be victimized by it, you probably won't be able to do a thing about it. Think of how scary that is.
So, now consider the concept of "waiting for the facts." Obviously, waiting for more information is usually a good thing, but in this context it communicates to victims: "Yeah, we can't really know if you should be believed." So, now we have a situation where the vast majority of victims can't get any legal recourse and, also, the world is telling them: "Yeah, but we don't know if you're a liar or not..." No legal recourse and no emotional or social support. It's little wonder so many rape victims commit suicide.
Personally, I think that we should err towards believing the victims, outside a court of law, because it's the least we can do and it will be the right thing to do, in the vast majority of cases. Also, it doesn't mean you have to assault the accused or otherwise ruin their lives (although, personally, I probably wouldn't want to associate with them).
So, now consider the concept of "waiting for the facts." Obviously, waiting for more information is usually a good thing, but in this context it communicates to victims: "Yeah, we can't really know if you should be believed." So, now we have a situation where the vast majority of victims can't get any legal recourse and, also, the world is telling them: "Yeah, but we don't know if you're a liar or not..." No legal recourse and no emotional or social support. It's little wonder so many rape victims commit suicide.
Personally, I think that we should err towards believing the victims, outside a court of law, because it's the least we can do and it will be the right thing to do, in the vast majority of cases. Also, it doesn't mean you have to assault the accused or otherwise ruin their lives (although, personally, I probably wouldn't want to associate with them).
AstroNut325
Member
Innocent until proven guilty. Always. That doesn't mean the victim should be treated like crap or get abused.
It was really eye opening for me when I discovered that many members of NeoGAF are perfectly ok with murder of alleged rapists. This thread is downright scary:
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=924586
It was really eye opening for me when I discovered that many members of NeoGAF are perfectly ok with murder of alleged rapists. This thread is downright scary:
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=924586
On the larger perspective, I think there is very little you can do to stop people speculating about public crimes. If you want to spend your life tut tutting people because they gossip about public crimes, that's certainly something some people find satisfying.
That said, from the perspective of a discussion forum, we're here to discuss things. If you think it's impossible to discuss an event or offer an opinion on it because of your need to presume innocence, then you should just not post in the thread. The constant drumbeat of "waiting for all the facts" is non-discussion, and an attempt to get others not to discuss it. No one needs posters to enter threads and express they have no opinion on the subject. It's just noise.
Discussing the issue in here is fine, of course, as that's the topic of the thread.
That said, from the perspective of a discussion forum, we're here to discuss things. If you think it's impossible to discuss an event or offer an opinion on it because of your need to presume innocence, then you should just not post in the thread. The constant drumbeat of "waiting for all the facts" is non-discussion, and an attempt to get others not to discuss it. No one needs posters to enter threads and express they have no opinion on the subject. It's just noise.
Discussing the issue in here is fine, of course, as that's the topic of the thread.
Something as subjective as rape/sexual assault will never have a satisfying conviction rate. It's always going to be difficult to find the balance between believing the victims and requiring clear evidence, especially considering how scary the power of false accusations is to most men (who are still the majority of lawmakers and politicians)
What needs to stop as soon as possible are, on one end, the numerous situations where a victim faces severe backlash/ridicule despite credible claims, and on the other end, witch hunts for the accused before the justice system even gets its hands on the case.
Both happen way too often, even though some people would have you believe that it's completely one-sided. It depends on where you live, what your social status is relative to the other involved people (remember all those athletes/stars getting away with shit?) and other such variable factors.
Doesn't it happen a lot that Gaffers in active situations start witch hunting or trying to be detectives and figure out who was the perpetrator or what their motivation is going by their Facebook? Haven't they been wrong multiple times?
I remember a few instances myself of this sort of thing happening, and it's happened for all sorts of accusations in threads. And people will defend or do otherwise to all sorts of people, but usually with people who they can more easily see themselves be in the feet of.
And even then, what does it matter? Do you know if it's the same Gaffers here and there? Could you go through every thread where this sort of mentality is applicable and measure against it? Is it really at all productive saying this sort of thing? Like does it diminish the argument in any way?
Apparently this is the only context where "let's wait for the facts" is the correct response.
So strange.
If I point to threads that people say this in other contexts, would you explain what this weird hmmm and hawww you're doing is implying?
Could you guys please explain what you are actually thinking? You think this thread is an exercise in rape apologism, or what?
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