• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Let Us Skip Boss Fights

I completely agree. But if they do for whatever want to keep on "reading" nothing stops them. Maybe they really like the typeface. The fact that you can stare at every word in a book without reading it doesn't somehow dilute the experience of actually reading it. I don't see why it would be bad to have similar possibilities for video games.

And sure, why not.

Add a "Cheats" section under Options, where anyone can configure their personal god mode. That way, people who want to use it, can, but it's also clear that they're violating authorial intent and are completely responsible for their own experience henceforth - much like skipping pages in a book.
 

Hero

Member
In NYCC on my phone so may reply to quotes later but I like how a developer shows up and explains that introducing these features early enough doesn't take any significant time to implement since most games have them for internal testing and 'artistic vision' is compromised dozens if not hundreds of times before the final product is out and people are still arguing those points. Lol.
 
My first instinct is to say no, probably like most on this forum. But really I have no problem with it. If you keep trying and failing and the option is either stop playing or skip/autoplay to progress that's fine. I'm sure most developers would rather have that, allowing the audience to see the whole game, then potentially turn the audience from further games by the developer.

I'd be heartbroken to hear that someone couldn't fully experienece my work of art because they got stuck and lost interest. Makes no sense.

I'd advise anyone playing a game to persevere and do their best to beat it on their own, but I'd also understand there is a breaking point.
 

Kaleinc

Banned
[Itagaki About Ninja Gaiden difficultiy]"It was done intentionally of course. The testers who tested this game went nuts. At first it was easier, but when the testers said "this is too difficult", I made it even more difficult."
 

hutna

Member
Because the lesson we want games to teach people is that you should just skip past any challenge you don't feel like overcoming.

Sounds like a great idea. What could go wrong?
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I got stuck in Dark Souls and could never beat Nito. I agree. I should have been able to skip that part so I can see the rest of the game!
If you can't beat a boss as easy as Nito, you won't be able to beat the 4 Kings, Artorias, or Gwyn either.

At the moment less than 15% of Dark Souls players on Steam beat the final boss according to the achievements -
So? This doesn't mean anything.
a) You don't know why it's at 15%. Maybe it's too hard, but it could also be that people are too busy to play, or didn't like it enough to continue. For Dark Souls 3, it appears to be at 25% on Steam (at least for the most common ending, the other endings being at 19% and 16%).
b) 9/10 players won't finish the game they're playing. So if anything, the completion rate for Dark Souls is higher than average
c) Someone actually compared completion trophy percentages of Souls games with other games and guess what, Souls games are not particularly lower than other, more mainstream games.

I don't see how it's a slippery slope at all. It doesn't take boss fights away, it just adds an option to skip it for whatever reason (not just 'it's too hard'). Just because you can't see the value in it doesn't mean there is no value in it, as there are a lot of people trying to explain in this very forum.
Just because you see value and think "more options are always better" doesn't mean it's true either, as myself and others have been trying to explain in this very thread.

What boss fights? There are boss fights these days? Could have fooled me. If anything, we more and better designed boss fights.
Play more Japanese games?

You know what? Most players don't finish games. This is something we can do to at least help more players experience more of the games they purchased, without taking anything away from the games that we love. There are other much higher impact solutions like 'make the game much shorter' and 'make the game much easier'. This is one that will mess with the game the least.
It's funny you are so desperate to find "solutions" to the "problem" that most players don't finish games, because this implies it's a problem to begin with.

It's not. It's perfectly OK to not finish games. I have a huge amount of games I played, enjoyed, and never finished. That's a normal, okay thing.

I'm baffled that so many people are so vehemently opposed to other people having more options as to how they experience the games that they own when it * literally * does * not * affect * their * experience * at * all *
I'm baffled that so many people just don't read this thread.

As for your architecture argument, it's patently silly. If some architecture student is really that interested in Dark Souls' architecture but doesn't want to play the game for real, the onus is on them to hack their game up with cheats and mess around as they please, not on the devs to provide that for them.

I think the main point is that some people (me included) like to play a game because of the story, the environment, the 99% of the things in it, but when they run into a boss fight changes are they simply hate it as it's for them *not fun at all*. That's not something like "I hate horror stuff, so change this horror game into a high school drama", it's like "I hate horror stuff, so cut the horror scene out of this high school drama".

Now there are boss fights and boss fights. I'll ignore the souls' games as those are pretty much a string of boss fights with training grounds in between them, and focus on normal games which have boss fights for the fuck sake of it.

In The Wither 3, you had boss fights, and although I in general hate boss fights, I didn't really hate them in this game because they were more or less 'exams' if you will: if your level matches the boss' level, you should be able to beat it, so use what you've learned. The game is teaching you that from the beginning. So if you use what you've learned, you should be fine and this is in general OK. With some exceptions they were done well.

In e.g. the Uncharted games or the later Deus Ex games, the bosses are in general a big chore. You mid-game run into some asshole bullet sponge which is simply completely different from what you've run into before, and doing what you've always done up to that point is useless. These boss fights are a big chore and I can imagine people give up because they run into these. You often have to learn a new trick by observing the boss and with luck you might succeed but changes are you will fail. Dying 5 times in a row while you want to experience story, other things than filling the bulletsponge meter of a useless padding boss, is annoying.

Some people simply have waded through the boss fights of old(er) games decades now and have seen and experienced that already 100 times over and they're looking for other things in games nowadays. By being confronted with bosses you effectively run into a roadblock to experience the stuff you want to experience and enjoy and why you bought the game in the first place.

Nowadays I simply use cheat engine to hack the game and skip a boss if it's annoying or use someone elses cheat table to do so or close the game and give up and file it under 'crap'. Like the last boss in Deus Ex Mankind Divided. What a chore. The game was OK, but that ending was blisteringly bad, at least for me personally. It was so annoying that I didn't finish it. I didn't care if there was a whole game after that or the end, fuck that shit. All the power to the people who love that kind of gameplay, no judgment there.
The problem you are describing here isn't the lack of "skip fight" option, it's badly designed boss battle.

As TheRedSnifit and others have mentioned in this thread, the solution is to make better boss gameplay, not give the option of taking it away. I can already devs not making much effort in designing a boss battle because hey, you can always just skip it to continue anyway, why bother.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
That's really about not wanting to play a game as opposed to not being able to play a game.

Not really, no. If I want to play Dead Space 1 and I'm never able to last more than 20 - 30 minutes because my heart is racing like crazy and I start to sweat then I'm not able to complete that game. Contrary to some people in this thread I would just accept the game isn't for me and move on instead of demanding a less scarier mode which would go against the intent of the people who made the game.
 
And it's not like this is some arcane ritual to implement, most game developers add a debugging feature to skip around to various points of the game for testing purposes.

People who use the debugging argument fail to realize that game testing isn't the same as experiencing the game as is. The developers aren't doing it to experience a part of the game that they haven't gotten a chance to know, they're checking to make sure everything works as intended.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I'm baffled that so many people are so vehemently opposed to other people having more options as to how they experience the games that they own when it * literally * does * not * affect * their * experience * at * all *



Did the existence of cheat codes "fundamentally change" every one of the hundreds of games that have them? Because what people are advocating for here is basically a debug menu/ built-in cheat engine with a GUI.

There are a million possible use cases beyond just wanting to skip part of a game. Imagine an architecture student wants to write a paper on Anor Londo but can't get past the Capra Demon, and can't find the footage he wants on youtube. Imagine an animator wants to study the movement of an enemy without worrying about getting hit and dying. In every other creative medium it is trivially easy to examine individual elements of a piece outside of the usual or "intended" context, like studying a frame of a movie or the construction of a sentence in a book. There are practical reasons why this will never be so easy in videogames, but some effort along these lines could be tremendously useful and interesting to a wide variety of audiences. The hostile reactions here seem like a massive failure of imagination.

I guess the reason people are scared is because players kept getting lost in Morrowind, so they introduced the quest compass with Oblivion, and now modern similar games are designed so you can't really play without the quest compass, or waypoints. People got rid of health packs and save points because some players got frustrated. In practice, developers have sort of forced everyone playing AAA games to play in a way that acquiesces the more mainstream player. Personally I think it would've been possible for developers to handle that better. They should have still balanced games to be played without quest compasses and other anti-frustration features, and then made those anti-frustration features optional.

That said though, I still don't understand why we're singling out boss fights here and not just saying difficulty spikes in general. We already see fewer boss fights in AAA games these days, though I think that's personally just a difference between western developers and Japanese developers. Maybe western developers just weren't as good at designing boss fights, because they'er still fairly common in Japanese games and they're still often great there. It's just that the biggest games in the business right now tend to be western.

And I still don't see how an optional chapter select available from the beginning would kill or change the way developers currently design games. I think they'd still be primarily designed to be played sequentially from beginning to end. More hardcore players wouldn't be forced to play in a new, easier way that accommodates level skipping or something, they could just choose not to skip. And I don't see why they're concerned with whether other players "git gud." That's on them, you don't know what else they're dealing with, what their situation is.

Lastly, I still don't like how these discussions equate "gameplay" with "combat and challenge." Tons of games have interactive elements that have nothing to do with combat and challenge. Most big-budget RPGs prove this. I don't even like how we're still talking about "gameplay" and "narrative" as two separate things. Every game isn't a Japanese-style arcade crucible like Bayonetta or Dark Souls. Skipping one difficulty spike or one boss fight isn't going to automatically turn the game into a movie.
 

royox

Member
That's really about not wanting to play a game as opposed to not being able to play a game.

Oh no no, i get so scared I can't keep playing. Couldn't even beat Fear xD.

I want to play that Alien game everybody says it's so good but I know I will drop it after 3 jump scares.
 

ffvorax

Member
I guess the reason people are scared is because players kept getting lost in Morrowind, so they introduced the quest compass with Oblivion,

super cut

I like this example because tells a lot. What I mean is... I got lost too and never completed Morrowind, still I loved the game and buyed all the sequels.
So also who is saying that "completion %" is bad for games, is wrong. It depends. I can still enjoy a lot a game without being able to see the ending of it and just play it until I can... and then drop it...

For sure Morrowind is particular because is open world so you have plenty to do anyway... still as a child I never finished most of the games I played, but still loved them...
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I'm baffled that so many people just don't read this thread.

As for your architecture argument, it's patently silly. If some architecture student is really that interested in Dark Souls' architecture but doesn't want to play the game for real, the onus is on them to hack their game up with cheats and mess around as they please, not on the devs to provide that for them.

If that student saw a movie with architecture that interested them, they'd just be able to skip back and forth throughout the movie. They wouldn't be able to do that with Dark Souls.

Now with Dark Souls and other games set in open-ended environments, chapter skip and such probably wouldn't work. I'm not saying chapter skip should be in all games, but I think it makes sense for liner games that are already cut up into levels and chapters. I think open-ended exploratory games should have some kind of separate mode where you can just explore the world without enemies in it, like The "Discovery Tour" mode in Assassin's Creed Origins. Imagine if Dark Souls did this, but also added developer commentary throughout the world. I think in games like that, especially the most popular ones, "discovery tour" modes would get quite a few more people interested enough to buy those games.
 

Catdaddy

Member
Rockstar lets you skip missions after three unsuccessful tries in RDR and GTA5 at the sacrifice of not getting achievement for completing the game. I liked this approach from R* - still have memories of a flying mission in GTA:SA that took me an entire afternoon to pass and no way to progress beyond it. Also the reason I’ve never bothered to replay GTA:SA.
 

zMiiChy-

Banned
As someone aspiring to be a developer, I would fine it utterly insulting to spend hours of my time crafting an intricate boss- fight just to give anyone an option to skip it outright.

I don't like difficulty settings either.
I want everyone to experience my game the same way.
 
Are "QoL windfalls" for one product the act of wishing for a fundamentally different product?

Is it negative to point out that was essentially condemning the existing product for not being whatever ideal was being sought because of conflict with the apparent intent of that product?

It is in many cases.

Look to the desperate logic leaps just in the interrum between your post and mine, it makes NO sense to NOT choose to make things easier.

To our ancestors, this made sense. WHY would anyone CHOOSE to live where there was no game to hunt? Tasty vegtables and fruit to gather? It would be suicide to CHOOSE the harder path.

Our brains to a degree are wired that way still, and in the real world, that still makes sense if only from an efficiency angle.

Thing is, when offered this it becomes hard to go back to it not being there (again, the desperate screed posts you see here and there, blissfully unaware that such a thought MIGHT have been made or even *gasp* refuted previously), and the insults fly without a second thought. I mean why would anyone DO that to themselves? They must be a minute, elitist masochist core amirite?!?!!

To go deeper, we have seen difficulty levels "slide" for lack of a better term, over the last decade ever since feeding this neurotic take on QoL became ascendant circa 2006 (when budgets ballooned). If such things were done in better faith, ESPECIALLY from us in the field, such things would be at worst neutral, and largely truly a boon to the industry, with varying games aimed at different markets and well-adjusted difficulty levels for those really good developers who know what's what.

But it can't often, as we're wired to seek the path of least resistance It's quite honestly a miracle high-tuned games or "make your own damn difficulty levels" games or "hidden in plain sight difficulty levels" got made in the more dogmatic Gen 7 environment, and we're largely past that, though the fixation, as we've seen here in this thread, remains.
 
I guess the reason people are scared is because players kept getting lost in Morrowind, so they introduced the quest compass with Oblivion, and now modern similar games are designed so you can't really play without the quest compass, or waypoints. People got rid of health packs and save points because some players got frustrated. In practice, developers have sort of forced everyone playing AAA games to play in a way that acquiesces the more mainstream player.
Guess what? Games used to let you skip boss fights. It was called the level select. They had cheat codes. Game players had Game Genie and Action Replay.

Now games don't have cheat codes and consoles don't have Game Genie or Action Replays.

Games have REMOVED the accessibility features they used to have, and it's thanks to prima donnas like zMiiChy below who think their authorial intent is some kind of sacred bond of thebes and are determined to make sure it is their way or the highway:

As someone aspiring to be a developer, I would fine it utterly insulting to spend hours of my time crafting an intricate boss- fight just to give anyone an option to skip it outright.

I don't like difficulty settings either.
I want everyone to experience my game the same way.
 

Future

Member
Skip em.

Give rewards for those that complete. Those looking for a challenge should be able to get it. Those that don’t should still get their own form of enjoyment
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I think maximizing the sales potential of something like Discovery Tour in Assassin's Creed would require Ubisoft to advertise the game to the right people. Maybe do something to bring it to the attention of history students, do some commercials on the History Channel, or even get some deals done with Museums.

The same goes for console games that aren't action games (or sports games). The console industry is geared to advertise almost exclusively to people who want those kinds of games. Basically, to maximize the potential of things like adventure games or walking simulators, they'd have to start trying to advertise to people who don't normally play console games. That's a risk. Companies like Telltale have found it easier to just also sell those games on mobile phones. This is why I think adventure games could have had a lot of potential on the Wii, and for a while you did see a lot of hidden object games on there. The mechanics of Silent Hill Shattered Memories showed how 3D adventure games could've worked on the Wii. Maybe if Telltale games and walking simulators had shown up a few years earlier while the Wii was still in its prime.

I guess I'm getting off topic. I'm just trying to say there's more interactive stuff to video games than killing shit and "gitting gud."
 

Ascheroth

Member
If that student saw a movie with architecture that interested them, they'd just be able to skip back and forth throughout the movie. They wouldn't be able to do that with Dark Souls.

Now with Dark Souls and other games set in open-ended environments, chapter skip and such probably wouldn't work. I'm not saying chapter skip should be in all games, but I think it makes sense for liner games that are already cut up into levels and chapters. I think open-ended exploratory games should have some kind of separate mode where you can just explore the world without enemies in it, like The "Discovery Tour" mode in Assassin's Creed Origins. Imagine if Dark Souls did this, but also added developer commentary throughout the world. I think in games like that, especially the most popular ones, "discovery tour" modes would get quite a few more people interested enough to buy those games.

See:
You're basically asking developers to accommodate people who have no interest in the product to begin with.
It's like having a person who doesn't want to read but is interested in the story of a book demanding the writer to supply him with a movie. That's not the writer's obligation.

If he wants to use the product in a different way than intended, it's not outrageous to think that he should have to put in a little extra work himself: getting it on PC and downloading a trainer or CheatEngine in this case for example.
Or bug Sony and Microsoft to open up their consoles so that people can make cheat things for it.
 
Every time I play a board game I just skip ahead the part where I lose and flip the table.

I always skip the combat in XCOM. It's the quickest way to get the true ending, too!

Skipping specifically boss fights is so strange. I cannot remember any game I've played recently where boss fights existed but were not a highlight of the game. Bosses are pretty much always more fun than normal fights, so I cannot understand the opinion that good bosses are as rare as gems.

There's games where I'd like to skip the other parts of the game and go straight the boss fights. RPGs in particular. When replaying FF games I often just run from battles till I get to the next boss.

If games started to implement boss-skipping frequently... I guess how I felt would depend on how it's done. If I play a game and lose to a boss repeatedly, to me that's probably enjoyable, but if it then asks if I'd like to skip it or lower the difficulty that'd be really aggravating even if I'd been frustrated by that boss.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member

One reason why they understand that it's a fundamentally different experience than "really" playing the game, because it requires mucking about with external tools.

And regarding your imaginary architecture student:
You're basically asking developers to accommodate people who have no interest in the product to begin with.
It's like having a person who doesn't want to read but is interested in the story of a book demanding the writer to supply him with a movie. That's not the writer's obligation.

If he wants to use the product in a different way than intended, it's not outrageous to think that he should have to put in a little extra work himself: getting it on PC and downloading a trainer or CheatEngine in this case for example.
Or bug Sony and Microsoft to open up their consoles so that people can make cheat things for it.

That's still a reason for someone to buy the product though. At the end of the day, it's still another reason for someone to buy the game. And let's not pretend those boss fights or combat encounters are the ENTIRE appeal of the product in the case of every game. Skipping a boss fight in Withcer 3 or Dragon Age or Horizon doesn't automatically mean someone isn't interested in playing ANY of the game. We've also established that adding a chapter select into a more linear game probably wouldn't be that expensive since a lot of developers already do it.

I thin, there are some schools of thoughts clashing in this thread about what a game is supposed to be and why people are supposed to play games. Maybe they're rooted in Japanese or western notions of what customers are supposed to do with games. On one side there's this idea that players are supposed to follow the authorial intent and get a very specific experience out of a game. On the extreme end is this believe that you're not "really" playing a game unless you're playing it a specific way. I think it stems from the idea of each game as a singular, static work of ark that was probably fostered by Japanese games during the PlayStation and PlayStation 2 era. On the other side you've got the notion of games as really just software that's under the user's control. Here, there's an understanding that all players aren't going to play the game exactly as the developer intended. Maybe that stems from a western PC background where some games had more in common with other computer programs.

Even on the console end though, people have always played games in ways not intended by the developer. Just look at speed runners who figured out how to totally break games. I think people give them a pass because they're still playing in a way that shows "skill," but that's not how it always is. I've always known people who play console games in alternative ways because they're just not interested in the challenge of the "main" game. Those people still bought those games. That's still money in the developer's pocket. Those people are still interested in the product.

Rami just did a whole thread on twitter about playing games "the wrong way." https://twitter.com/tha_rami/status/915763320120102912
 
Guess what? Games used to let you skip boss fights. It was called the level select. They had cheat codes. Game players had Game Genie and Action Replay.

Now games don't have cheat codes and consoles don't have Game Genie or Action Replays.

Games have REMOVED the accessibility features they used to have, and it's thanks to prima donnas like zMiiChy below who think their authorial intent is some kind of sacred bond of thebes and are determined to make sure it is their way or the highway:

You can still do all of this on PC with mods. Gameshark and co. died out because console makers considered them a security breach. Closed platforms result in more controlled experiences, who knew? It's not up to developers to make up for your poor purchasing choices.

Built-in cheat codes died out because what people are clamoring for isn't truly a fast-forward button but validation and satisfaction from beating the "official" game with "official" settings, which they don't get from cheat codes. Developers have acquiesced and basically baked the cheats into the games themselves. Bioshock Infinite has no maze navigation, no serious stat system, no fail state, and you're basically playing on God Mode with health packs and resources literally spawning from wormholes when you run low. So now people who struggle with anything more difficult than Gone Home can beat most modern games without having the "shame" of using a cheat menu or installing mods.

Of course, this turns out to not be a terribly interesting experience and has resulted in games being increasingly grindy and boring. So the "solution" as Ubisoft and others are finding is to just remove the gameplay completely.
 

Pulgo1

Member
Bring back cheat codes. You can't skip the boss, but you can have infinite health making it practically impossible to not complete that stage.

To be honest, I don't care if games give you the option to skip bosses. Let people play how they want to. It doesn't affect me, so why should I care.
 

Samemind

Member
People who use the debugging argument fail to realize that game testing isn't the same as experiencing the game as is. The developers aren't doing it to experience a part of the game that they haven't gotten a chance to know, they're checking to make sure everything works as intended.

What point are you trying to make? As if a feature can't pull double duty for different purposes.

My position on this is that level/scene/checkpoint select isn't beneficial purely to low-engagement users. As I noted previously, the number of uses for picking a spot in a game to play also benefit those who are very engaged with the game, to the point where they're wanting to re-experience certain parts. While you could serve this purpose by making such a feature unlockable according to progress (as seen in level selection that's available in many modern games), it's dependent on your save file. There's a myriad reasons why you might not have a save file available.

It's not like you'd advocate against fighting games having a training mode right?
"You're telling me you want to train against Blanka and NOT have to reach stage 5 of arcade mode? Why are you even playing?"

The argument against giving players allowances to prevent games from becoming bland, brainless experiences? Don't games get that way because developers wanted the most people to see what the game had to offer, so they have to allow as many as possible to clear every part of the game? Letting people pick the parts of the game they want to experience could free devs from needing to design for the lowest common denominator.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
He's certainly got a point, and it would be interesting to see the option. Maybe something like the Bayonetta auto-play option would be the answer, so you're not actually skipping content.
 

PooBone

Member
I'm a fan of the "chapter select" in any game that's level based. Open world games inevitably become a big checklist with no real way to go back and play your favorite sections without manually creating saves where you like.

As far as skipping boss fights, that sounds silly, unless you've done it once and just want to move forward. Part of video games is being rewarded for your actions. Negating that psychological response, even if you just know the option is there and don't use it, sounds shitty.
 

Ascheroth

Member
That's still a reason for someone to buy the product though. At the end of the day, it's still another reason for someone to buy the game. And let's not pretend those boss fights or combat encounters are the ENTIRE appeal of the product in the case of every game. Skipping a boss fight in Withcer 3 or Dragon Age or Horizon doesn't automatically mean someone isn't interested in playing ANY of the game. We've also established that adding a chapter select into a more linear game probably wouldn't be that expensive since a lot of developers already do it.

I thin, there are some schools of thoughts clashing in this thread about what a game is supposed to be and why people are supposed to play games. Maybe they're rooted in Japanese or western notions of what customers are supposed to do with games. On one side there's this idea that players are supposed to follow the authorial intent and get a very specific experience out of a game. On the extreme end is this believe that you're not "really" playing a game unless you're playing it a specific way. I think it stems from the idea of each game as a singular, static work of ark that was probably fostered by Japanese games during the PlayStation and PlayStation 2 era. On the other side you've got the notion of games as really just software that's under the user's control. Here, there's an understanding that all players aren't going to play the game exactly as the developer intended. Maybe that stems from a western PC background where some games had more in common with other computer programs.

Even on the console end though, people have always played games in ways not intended by the developer. Just look at speed runners who figured out how to totally break games. I think people give them a pass because they're still playing in a way that shows "skill," but that's not how it always is. I've always known people who play console games in alternative ways because they're just not interested in the challenge of the "main" game. Those people still bought those games. That's still money in the developer's pocket. Those people are still interested in the product.

Rami just did a whole thread on twitter about playing games "the wrong way." https://twitter.com/tha_rami/status/915763320120102912
I have no issues with any of this. I've made it clear earlier in the thread that I'm of the opinion that after you buy a game you should be able to do whatever the heck you want.
Recent personal example: Trails of Cold Steel has a "bonding events" system where at certain parts in the game you have the option to watch events between the MC and side characters of your choice. You can't watch all of them on the first playthrough though.
Now I believe this was a stupid as hell decision because I sure ain't care about replayability in my 80 hour long linear singleplayer games. Especially as some of those events contain quite a bit of character development.
The dev intended to have this system to encourage replayability, and I disagree with that intent.
The solution was to fire up CheatEngine and give myself unlimited bonding points so I could watch all the scenes.

My issue lies with people demanding that developers should be obligated to include "skip boss"-buttons etc and target the 'lowest common denominator'.
Games are made with a target audience in mind. If you make a boss rush game your target audience is likely "people who like challenging boss rushes and the feeling of overcoming obstacles".
They are not obligated to cater towards people not in their target audience.
Now maybe this game happens to have a fantastic artstyle or something and there are people just wanting to look at the pretty graphics while 'playing'.
Nothing wrong with that. But those people have to realize that they are not the primary target audience and this game was not made for them. It is on them to find a way to make that game into something they enjoy.
They have a number of options:
1) Look at the game on youtube
2) Cheat or mod it
3) Leave it alone and look for a game they actually like
 
I have no issues with any of this. I've made it clear earlier in the thread that I'm of the opinion that after you buy a game you should be able to do whatever the heck you want.
Recent personal example: Trails of Cold Steel has a "bonding events" system where at certain parts in the game you have the option to watch events between the MC and side characters of your choice. You can't watch all of them on the first playthrough though.
Now I believe this was a stupid as hell decision because I sure ain't care about replayability in my 80 hour long linear singleplayer games. Especially as some of those events contain quite a bit of character development.
The dev intended to have this system to encourage replayability, and I disagree with that intent.
The solution was to fire up CheatEngine and give myself unlimited bonding points so I could watch all the scenes.

My issue lies with people demanding that developers should be obligated to include "skip boss"-buttons etc and target the 'lowest common denominator'.
Games are made with a target audience in mind. If you make a boss rush game your target audience is likely "people who like challenging boss rushes and the feeling of overcoming obstacles".
They are not obligated to cater towards people not in their target audience.
Now maybe this game happens to have a fantastic artstyle or something and there are people just wanting to look at the pretty graphics while 'playing'.
Nothing wrong with that. But those people have to realize that they are not the primary target audience and this game was not made for them. It is on them to find a way to make that game into something they enjoy.
They have a number of options:
1) Look at the game on youtube
2) Cheat or mod it
3) Leave it alone and look for a game they actually like
Who's actually demanded developers to do anything? Who wants to 'dumb down' games? You seem to be jumping to some pretty big conclusions there.
 
What if skipping boss fights made the rest of the game harder?

Like... you don;t get the special weapon/skill/thingy that you'd normally get form the boss, but you do get to move on? Or the boss is still alive and causes trouble. Or the game just makes you feel bad for skipping it.

Then those that want to skip bosses get what they want, and those that don't want to let them still get to spoil their fun a bit.
 
Who's actually demanded developers to do anything? Who wants to 'dumb down' games? You seem to be jumping to some pretty big conclusions there.

There have been multiple people in this thread who've demanded such, including one guy who said selling a game that somebody can't beat is equivelant to theft. The article this thread is based on says developers are "daft" for not having this option.

This is what happens when you skip.
 
Seems to me there are a lot of people who derive a self esteem boost from being better at video games than other people, and the ability of those other people to skip something they had to master is threatening to their own self worth. Seems like most of the arguments in this thread are window dressing for this main theme.
 
There have been multiple people in this thread who've demanded such, including one guy who said selling a game that somebody can't beat is equivelant to theft. The article this thread is based on says developers are "daft" for not having this option.

This is what happens when you skip.

I've read a hell of a lot of this thread actually, even that regurgitated joke, and I can't find much of anything besides absurd comparisons coming from all over the place, silly elitism, and people arguing the most extreme of extreme examples to further whatever their stand may be.

I don't think making video games more accessible equates dumbing down videogames. I do think this is an overall excellent discussion to be had and people should not be so averse to making videogames more accessible. We should instead be invested in how we can make videogames more accessible whilst keeping a core experience for the experienced. One way or another videogames are growing larger and larger meaning publishers will want their product to be ably experienced by larger audiences, these discussions help in how we refine this reality.
 

Catdaddy

Member
As someone aspiring to be a developer, I would fine it utterly insulting to spend hours of my time crafting an intricate boss- fight just to give anyone an option to skip it outright.

I don't like difficulty settings either.
I want everyone to experience my game the same way.

Odds are the marketing department would have a different opinion.
 
I've read a hell of a lot of this thread actually, even that regurgitated joke, and I can't find much of anything besides absurd comparisons coming from all over the place, silly elitism, and people arguing the most extreme of extreme examples to further whatever their stand may be.

See:

This is bollocks. If someone pays 60 dollars for an experience the developers should be bending over backwards to ensure that as many people as possible have the opportunity to see as much of the game as possible. Doing otherwise is a dereliction of duty on the part of the developer, akin to taking the money and running.

This thought has been reiterated many times throughout this thread, even if most aren't so blunt about it.

I don't think making video games more accessible equates dumbing down videogames. I do think this is an overall excellent discussion to be had and people should not be so averse to making videogames more accessible. We should instead be invested in how we can make videogames more accessible whilst keeping a core experience for the experienced. One way or another videogames are growing larger and larger meaning publishers will want their product to be ably experienced by larger audiences, these discussions help in how we refine this reality.

The solution is to acknowledge that there are a bunch of different audiences that want different things from games, and to not get up in arms like RPG Codex types whenever a game caters to one audience and not another. A game's value is not determined by how many people see the ending cutscene, even if they skipped over so much of the game that they didn't derive any enjoyment of it.

The compromise is to have a cheats menu where you can configure your own personal god mode. That way, people who want to use it, can, but it's also clear that they're violating authorial intent and are completely responsible for their own experience henceforth - much like skipping pages in a book.
 
What point are you trying to make? As if a feature can't pull double duty for different purposes.

My position on this is that level/scene/checkpoint select isn't beneficial purely to low-engagement users. As I noted previously, the number of uses for picking a spot in a game to play also benefit those who are very engaged with the game, to the point where they're wanting to re-experience certain parts. While you could serve this purpose by making such a feature unlockable according to progress (as seen in level selection that's available in many modern games), it's dependent on your save file. There's a myriad reasons why you might not have a save file available.

It's not like you'd advocate against fighting games having a training mode right?
"You're telling me you want to train against Blanka and NOT have to reach stage 5 of arcade mode? Why are you even playing?"

The argument against giving players allowances to prevent games from becoming bland, brainless experiences? Don't games get that way because developers wanted the most people to see what the game had to offer, so they have to allow as many as possible to clear every part of the game? Letting people pick the parts of the game they want to experience could free devs from needing to design for the lowest common denominator.

The training mode analogy is horrible considering that you disregarding the difference in playstyles between going through arcade mode vs. playing in training mode (or versus other players for that matter). Never mind that you have a CPU in arcade mode vs. a fully customizable experience in training mode tailored toward improving and getting better. Therein lies the fundamental difference, training mode used as a means towards getting better vs. giving an out to players and skipping boss fights/or selecting parts simply because they are low-engagement users.

Additionally arguing for re-experience disregards that some games actively allow you to rewatch cutscenes, or play through bosses that you want to experience in a rush mode, etc., so it's not as if certain games don't already provide this kind of experience. Granted it's not consistent and there's still a lot of improvement to be had, but it's not as if debug mode is the be-all, end-all solution. Also, I don't buy that letting people play whichever parts of the game that it means developers won't have to design games to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Primarily bc there's no incentive to create good design when you don't know how your base will respond to them. Look at Pokemon, they scrapped some of the postgame features because they weren't sure that consumers were devoting time to them with the advent of tablets. Granted that is postgame, but the point still remains, where there is no incentive to do so, developers will simply scale back.

The compromise is to have a cheats menu where you can configure your own personal god mode. That way, people who want to use it, can, but it's also clear that they're violating authorial intent and are completely responsible for their own experience henceforth - much like skipping pages in a book.

Cheats were such a good solution back then. Idk why they ended up getting scrapped.
 
See:



This thought has been reiterated many times throughout this thread, even if most aren't so blunt about it.



The solution is to acknowledge that there are a bunch of different audiences that want different things from games, and to not get up in arms like RPG Codex types whenever a game caters to one audience and not another. A game's value is not determined by how many people see the ending cutscene, even if they skipped over so much of the game that they didn't derive any enjoyment of it.

The compromise is to have a cheats menu where you can configure your own personal god mode. That way, people who want to use it, can, but it's also clear that they're violating authorial intent and are completely responsible for their own experience henceforth - much like skipping pages in a book.
I'm personally arguing for technical inclusiveness. I mean, of course certain genres are going to target different audiences, but there are a lot of people in those targeted audiences that aren't going to be able to experience as much of the product as they'd like due to a possible multitude of reasons. This discussion is how we can alleviate these setbacks for those people without harming the core experience, not make Jack who hates horror games love Dead Space. People are fumbling over themselves in this thread.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Seems to me there are a lot of people who derive a self esteem boost from being better at video games than other people, and the ability of those other people to skip something they had to master is threatening to their own self worth. Seems like most of the arguments in this thread are window dressing for this main theme.

Seems to me like you skipped most of the thread if that's your hot take on the subject
 
I mean, the first thing that comes to mind whenever I see this is I think it was the development lead on CoD Advanced Warfare, one of the CoDs a few years ago anyway who had to justify (seriously) the fact that all the levels in the single player were unlocked from the start and fully playable and what he said made a lot of sense. I'd link the article but I'm lazy and what he said can be summed up easily, basically that lots of people don't complete games (look at achievements/trophy percentages for example) for various reasons and if a player encounters a difficulty spike in the form of a boss or a whole level then they're likely to just give up on the game entirely, or watch an LP of the game or just watch the ending on YouTube. He said it's a sizeable amount of money that is spent on parts of games most players will never see and it'd be counterproductive to be discouraging the player to continue playing the game through contrived game conventions like liner (and locked) progression.

I won't demand this in any game but I do like to see it when it does occur. Having to do something difficult/annoying/boring/time consuming or all of those things just to continue with the good stuff sucks yeah? Comparisons to other forms of entertainment are indeed futile but O'Brian wasn't too far off with his point. Linear games and unlocks still serve a purpose undoubtedly but the more games that can find clever workarounds regarding unlocking the ability to progress in the game the better as far as I'm concerned.

Especially regarding the topic as most boss fights nowadays have lost their original impact, bar a few really notable exceptions like the amazing Cuphead most are poorly executed. A temporary invincibility powerup that is 100% optional really wouldn't be a problem at all would it?
 
I'm personally arguing for technical inclusiveness. I mean, of course certain genres are going to target different audiences, but there are a lot of people in those targeted audiences that aren't going to be able to experience as much of the product as they'd like due to a possible multitude of reasons. This discussion is how we can alleviate these setbacks for those people without harming the core experience, not make Jack who hates horror games love Dead Space. People are fumbling over themselves in this thread.

Cheat codes?

It sounds like you're saying "How can we make it so games are equally satisfying for bad players and good players," which isn't possible.

Especially regarding the topic as most boss fights nowadays have lost their original impact, bar a few really notable exceptions like the amazing Cuphead most are poorly executed. A temporary invincibility powerup that is 100% optional really wouldn't be a problem at all would it?

Then instead of calling for boss skips, we should be calling for a return to good gameplay and criticizing games that are poorly executed.
 

Andrew J.

Member
I wouldn't want this for boss fights specifically (usually they tell you what to do plainly enough), but a similar feature for puzzles, timing and/or platforming challenges and occasionally navigation (my sense of direction is terrible) would be most welcome.
 

DerpHause

Member
It is in many cases.

Look to the desperate logic leaps just in the interrum between your post and mine, it makes NO sense to NOT choose to make things easier.

Sure there is a logical reason. People seek challenge, which is why challenging games sell. Creating a product people want to be compensated for it is as logical a reason to produce something as it gets. Refusing to acknowledge that doesn't make that argument illogical, it makes you illogical.

To our ancestors, this made sense. WHY would anyone CHOOSE to live where there was no game to hunt? Tasty vegtables and fruit to gather? It would be suicide to CHOOSE the harder path.

Our brains to a degree are wired that way still, and in the real world, that still makes sense if only from an efficiency angle.

So you've fundamentally failed to consider the reality surrounding the fact that our desires in recreation and escapism don't mirror our pursuits for survival. This should be obvious when looking at the actual games we as a species produce.

If you want to talk about our ancestral drives, you need to look holistically rather than at efficiency in isolation. We weren't wired to just seek survival, we were wired to seek prosperity, to take whatever we could grab, and to idolize the ideal of those who could prove their superiority.

That translates into the games we play so far as this argument is concerned. We create glamorized scenarios surrounding circumstances we would never want to encounter in life, the risk of life and limb and the disregard for comfort go against our fundamental drives, yet that's what we create when we know we have the safety net of separation from this fantasy and it's lack of real consequence.

That's part of why we seek the scenarios we do, and that sense of dominance and competition underlying it is why many seek the challenges they do both in and out of gaming.

Again, if your accounting of human motivations can't explain the state of what real people do, it's your understanding that is flawed.

Thing is, when offered this it becomes hard to go back to it not being there (again, the desperate screed posts you see here and there, blissfully unaware that such a thought MIGHT have been made or even *gasp* refuted previously), and the insults fly without a second thought. I mean why would anyone DO that to themselves? They must be a minute, elitist masochist core amirite?!?!!

You almost sound sarcastic here, which would hint that maybe you understand the absurdity of your position when our gaming sphere idolizes one of the worst human made atrocities in history. But unfortunately, you seem to be serious.

To go deeper, we have seen difficulty levels "slide" for lack of a better term, over the last decade ever since feeding this neurotic take on QoL became ascendant circa 2006 (when budgets ballooned). If such things were done in better faith, ESPECIALLY from us in the field, such things would be at worst neutral, and largely truly a boon to the industry, with varying games aimed at different markets and well-adjusted difficulty levels for those really good developers who know what's what.

There is an obvious correlation you hit on there. Budget necessitated mass appeal as price points are largely fixed. That means high budget games can't subsist on niche markets. But that's the isolated case for those games rather than a concrete indicator of the underlying condition of the human quest for efficiency.

Gaming itself is an inefficiency, and it's fundamental defining point, interaction, is nothing but an interruption on the efficient course of passive content consumption. Per the root of your argument gaming itself is a media conceived in conflict with human nature even moreso that wasting time on unproductive recreation to begin with.

And again, we're creating adverse situations to begin with.

But it can't often, as we're wired to seek the path of least resistance It's quite honestly a miracle high-tuned games or "make your own damn difficulty levels" games or "hidden in plain sight difficulty levels" got made in the more dogmatic Gen 7 environment, and we're largely past that, though the fixation, as we've seen here in this thread, remains.

Are we? If the games keep coming out then perhaps it's your expectations that are once again in error. Basic principle here, if things consistently violate your model viewpoint and do so profitably, you model clearly doesn't account for a population sizeable enough to be profitable, and thus can't and won't accurately predicts why things are being made. And if it's consistently wrong, it's probably because the underlying beliefs are also wrong in some way.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I've read a hell of a lot of this thread actually, even that regurgitated joke, and I can't find much of anything besides absurd comparisons coming from all over the place, silly elitism, and people arguing the most extreme of extreme examples to further whatever their stand may be.

I don't think making video games more accessible equates dumbing down videogames. I do think this is an overall excellent discussion to be had and people should not be so averse to making videogames more accessible. We should instead be invested in how we can make videogames more accessible whilst keeping a core experience for the experienced. One way or another videogames are growing larger and larger meaning publishers will want their product to be ably experienced by larger audiences, these discussions help in how we refine this reality.

This is the real point right here.

To those worried about developers not investing in designing certain parts because they know people can skip it, they're pretty much at that state now because they know most people don't finish their games. Again, I don't think putting a level select in Call of Duty or Uncharted is gonna cause any fewer people to finish them or play all their levels, than already are. And we've already established that there are myriad other reasons someone may find use out of a level select or free-roam mode or whatever. Even in games with more niche audiences, is that really going to hurt the core fans? I say that based on what some people in development in this discussion have already said about how expensive it might actually be to add level select.

And that's not even talking about games like Horizon, Call of Duty, Witcher 3, or Uncharted, which are meant to sell millions or tens of millions of copies.
 
Cheat codes?

It sounds like you're saying "How can we make it so games are equally satisfying for bad players and good players," which isn't possible.

There are a lot of 'bad' players of games that have a hell of a lot more fun than the 'good' players of said games, there's no way to make an experience equal for everyone and that's not what I want. There are so many games and genres that there is absolutely no way to set a universal standard for how to make everything more accessible, but I do think that each game individually can do interesting things to make the experience as inclusive as possible whilst keeping the core experience intact.

A lot of games have experimented in different ways to do this within the last couple of years and I'm absolutely cool with it. I don't think anyone is upset that you can skip missions in Red Dead and GTAV, or that Bioware games have a narrative difficulty setting, and Uncharted 4 is especially great considering it has a narrative difficulty and assistance options for the physically disabled. Options that help people get past button mashing sequences that are otherwise easy to most but sadly function as a stonewall for many eager players.

These are examples of how I think videogames can be more technically inclusive without upsetting the people that don't require these additions, and honestly, I'd even be cool with certain games having an outright 'skip encounter' option in the pause screen. It wouldn't be an option for everything of course, but would it really hurt to say, skip LA Noire's combat sequences (which you already can, just gotta die a few times first) so one can move onto the other investigative elements of the game?
 
Top Bottom