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confused · Mar 13, 2011

Develop posted an article last week mentioning that Handheld gaming budgets are expected to triple with the release of the 3DS and NGP. This will probably have quite the effect on the handheld gaming market which was just starting to diversify due to lower entry costs for devs.

Develop said:
The cost of making games clearly has studios in a pensive frame of mind, and theres good reason for them to feel nervous about finances. Not only does the recent economic slump continue to furrow brows; theres also the fact 99 cent iPhone games changed consumer views on pricing.

If you wanted to spend console money on developing a NGP or 3DS title, every penny of it would show, and clearly some of the launch titles have budgets two-to-three times what typical DS games have seen in
the past, says Connors.

It simply takes more time and effort to design towards all the devices advanced features, and consumer expectations on depth and production value have significantly changed with the advent of the iPhones 99 cent games.

Develp Article

So what effect do you guys think this could have on the future of portable gaming ?

this is my first thread ever, go easy on me. Also, lock if old. Searched etc.

Mario · Mar 13, 2011

Average handheld dev budgets can't and won't triple. Average sales wouldn't justify the expense and publishers won't take the risk.

While they should triple if one wants to take advantage of the hardware (publishers were lowballing budgets last gen), Develop is simple wrong on this because taking advantage of the hardware is low on the list of considerations.

confused · Mar 13, 2011

Mario said:
Average handheld dev budgets can't and won't triple. Average sales wouldn't justify the expense and publishers won't take the risk.

While they should triple if one wants to take advantage of the hardware (publishers were lowballing budgets last gen), Develop is simple wrong on this because taking advantage of the hardware is low on the list of considerations.

How can especially NGP budgets not be massively more than psp budgets on AAA titles ?

Also, here in europe a handheld games cost more or less the same as a HD AAA game, so my guess is that there is plenty of room for publishers to lose some revenue on handheld titles.

Nirolak · Mar 13, 2011

This was actually Griptonite's statement. Develop was just interviewing them.

Grayman · Mar 13, 2011

The shack article http://www.shacknews.com/article/67799/development-costs-tripled-ngp-and mentions that the budgets could surpass $1 million on a regular basis and that amount sounded low ish to me. Where bigger PSP games actually being made for 300,000?

confused · Mar 13, 2011

Nirolak said:
This was actually Griptonite's statement. Develop was just interviewing them.

Sorry for that, thanks for the edit

Nirolak · Mar 13, 2011

Grayman said:
The shack article http://www.shacknews.com/article/67799/development-costs-tripled-ngp-and mentions that the budgets could surpass $1 million on a regular basis and that amount sounded low ish to me. Where bigger PSP games actually being made for 300,000?

Bigger PSP games cost waaaaay more than that, but you can probably count the number of big PSP games on your fingers and toes.

The budgets being referred to in the title are the budgets for ports and spin-offs that you see farmed out by Western publishers as well as middle to lower tier Japanese games.

confused said:
Sorry for that, thanks for the edit

No worries, it can get confusing with some of these articles.

Grayman · Mar 13, 2011

Mario said:
Average handheld dev budgets can't and won't triple. Average sales wouldn't justify the expense and publishers won't take the risk.

While they should triple if one wants to take advantage of the hardware (publishers were lowballing budgets last gen), Develop is simple wrong on this because taking advantage of the hardware is low on the list of considerations.

Publishers went crazy with the home console budgets when they did not need to though. Handhelds are a different ecosystem but the industry has not shown restraint before.

Polk · Mar 13, 2011

confused said:
How can especially NGP budgets not be massively more than psp budgets on AAA titles ?

Reuse of assets from other versions would be my best pick.

confused · Mar 13, 2011

Polk said:
Reuse of assets from other versions would be my best pick.

But what if it's an original IP and not a port/remake

Wolves Evolve · Mar 13, 2011

Also, Sony getting aggressive with their licensing fees and demanding more control over projects isn't doing them any favours.

fabricated backlash · Mar 13, 2011

Polk said:
Reuse of assets from other versions would be my best pick.

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the system though? People are allready rioting (well not quite, let's settle for complaining) because of the Port-athon that is happening on the 3DS.

I for one am not happy with this development. Growth of the industry is one thing, but right now to me it seems as if the industry has expanded to a point where it's more or less overblown, and not a very healthy marketplace for most.

The focus on higher, faster better isn't sustainable at this rate i fear.(allthough it will allways have a very important place)

Grayman · Mar 13, 2011

Another developer taking existing IP to 3DS is Paul Mottram, executive producer at Zoë Mode. Having revisited PSP puzzler Crush for the Nintendo handheld, Mottram and his colleagues have learned plenty of lessons about 3D.

most important quote of the article, 3DS gets a revisit of Crush!

sixteen-bit · Mar 13, 2011

Grayman said:
most important quote of the article, 3DS gets a revisit of Crush!

This has been known for a while.

Rlan · Mar 13, 2011

boris feinbrand said:
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the system though? People are allready rioting (well not quite, let's settle for complaining) because of the Port-athon that is happening on the 3DS.

I for one am not happy with this development. Growth of the industry is one thing, but right now to me it seems as if the industry has expanded to a point where it's more or less overblown, and not a very healthy marketplace for most.

The focus on higher, faster better isn't sustainable at this rate i fear.(allthough it will allways have a very important place)

It's the beginning of a handheld's life -- there are ALWAYS ports. I mean, DS started with Super Mario 64 DS and tons of GBA "upgrades".

Noshino · Mar 13, 2011

boris feinbrand said:
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the system though? People are allready rioting (well not quite, let's settle for complaining) because of the Port-athon that is happening on the 3DS.

I for one am not happy with this development. Growth of the industry is one thing, but right now to me it seems as if the industry has expanded to a point where it's more or less overblown, and not a very healthy marketplace for most.

The focus on higher, faster better isn't sustainable at this rate i fear.(allthough it will allways have a very important place)

that's because 3DS isn't exactly getting good looking ports, the NGP in the other hand, reportedly should be able to make use of assets from the PS3 version of the games.

Mario · Mar 13, 2011

Grayman said:
Publishers went crazy with the home console budgets when they did not need to though. Handhelds are a different ecosystem but the industry has not shown restraint before.

Console budgets have come down dramatically in the last two years, and DS/PSP budgets were generally never what they should have been for the expectations of the market (or what they themselves were asking for).

I've been exposed to a bunch of proposed 3DS and NGP projects already, and publishers for the most part aren't even investing double what they were last gen much less triple.

gofreak · Mar 13, 2011

boris feinbrand said:
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the system though? People are allready rioting (well not quite, let's settle for complaining) because of the Port-athon that is happening on the 3DS.

Re-use of assets doesn't mean porting. It can mean taking assets from one project and using them in another, different one. Studios already do it between projects, depending on budget they may do it more or less aggressively.

Mind you, plenty of straight porting is and will be happening too.

zoukka · Mar 13, 2011

Embrace the dark times.

coldvein · Mar 13, 2011

zoukka said:
Embrace the dark times.

fuck the dark times. i'm scared.

Sohter.Nura · Mar 13, 2011

Well, who knows if that is true, but if it ever comes to fruition it would wrap it up for the portables, methinks

zoukka · Mar 13, 2011

Sohter.Nura said:
Well, who knows if that is true, but if it ever comes to fruition it would wrap it up for the portables, methinks

Wrap it up as in wrap it up for quirky, imaginative 2D sprite based games.

If you don't miss 'em, then I don't see the problem.

coldvein · Mar 13, 2011

zoukka said:
Wrap it up as in wrap it up for quirky, imaginative 2D sprite based games.

so, so sad. nintendo ds for life?

Phoenician_Viking · Mar 13, 2011

zoukka said:
Embrace the dark times.

That is really pessimistic zoukka. Big budget games does not mean that games are good. And small budget games does not mean that the games will be bad. Developers can adapt to these kind of situations i hope.

Noshino · Mar 13, 2011

zoukka said:
Wrap it up as in wrap it up for quirky, imaginative 2D sprite based games.

If you don't miss 'em, then I don't see the problem.

Most of those "quirky, imaginative 2D sprite based" games were from japanese developers, although the increase in the development budget may have been a factor, I think it is is more likely that they moved to the handhelds because of Japan's preference of handhelds over home consoles.

In other words, unlikely for them to go away.

robo_robo · Mar 13, 2011

Considering the graphical gap difference between 3DS/NGP and the one between DS/PSP, isn't it more than ever in Sony's interest to make high budget AAA NGP games to actually market/sell the system?

Phoenician_Viking · Mar 13, 2011

Yann said:
Considering the graphical gap difference between 3DS/NGP and the one between DS/PSP, isn't it more than ever in Sony's interest to make high budget AAA NGP games to actually market/sell the system?

It is in both Sony and Nintendo´s interest to use the hardware to its fullest. It is first party´s job to do it, since third parties are not interested in pushing the hardware.

zoukka · Mar 13, 2011

Beam said:
Big budget games does not mean that games are good. And small budget games does not mean that the games will be bad.

Fucking amen.

The Faceless Master · Mar 13, 2011

zoukka said:
Embrace the dark times.

yeah, that's what i'm saying. i'm not happy until devs are going out of business on the bleeding edge of technology with high budget aaa games that don't sell enough!

Izayoi · Mar 13, 2011

Beam said:
That is really pessimistic zoukka. Big budget games does not mean that games are good. And small budget games does not mean that the games will be bad. Developers can adapt to these kind of situations i hope.

From what we saw come out of the DS I have no doubt in my mind that developers will adapt just fine.

The NGP might have these kinds of problems but I don't see it being a huge issue for the 3DS.

Agent X · Mar 13, 2011

Beam said:
Big budget games does not mean that games are good. And small budget games does not mean that the games will be bad.

This is true. Not every game has to have hundreds of square miles of 3D rendered landscapes and motion-captured character models voiced by famous actors. There are many games that have been spectacular, which have had none of these luxuries and were simply crafted with a desire to produce an enjoyable game with addictive and compelling gameplay.

We'll see plenty of large-scale and small-scale productions for years to come. Portables will be no different.

On the matter of reusing assets, it can be useful for porting over games from other platforms. We've already seen this happen in the past (particularly with PSP). It is also possible to adapt portions of a game engine from one game to another on the same platform.

Phoenician_Viking · Mar 13, 2011

Izayoi said:
From what we saw come out of the DS I have no doubt in my mind that developers will adapt just fine.

The NGP might have these kinds of problems but I don't see it being a huge issue for the 3DS.

PS suite might be very influential in solving NGP problem. Besides i think the control variety in NGP might make it very attractive for small developers to develop small interesting projects on NGP. Maybe we will see these kind of games when E3 starts.

Is there any download limit on 3DS ware like there is on the Wii? If there is it might be problematic to develop or port independent like what happened with SMB developers.

Luigiv · Mar 13, 2011

Beam said:
PS suite might be very influential in solving NGP problem. Besides i think the control variety in NGP might make it very attractive for small developers to develop small interesting projects on NGP. Maybe we will see these kind of games when E3 starts.

Is there any download limit on 3DS ware like there is on the Wii? If there is it might be problematic to develop or port independent like what happened with SMB developers.

Shouldn't be. Unlike the Wii, the 3DS is capable of streaming straight from the SD card, which means Nintendo can be much more lenient on the Download limits. I expect the limit to be about 2gigs, which is the same size as the largest ROM carts and would put it in line with XBLA.

Boney · Mar 13, 2011

Beam said:
Is there any download limit on 3DS ware like there is on the Wii? If there is it might be problematic to develop or port independent like what happened with SMB developers.

No word on that, but all units have 2GB flash storage and a 2GB SD card.

Phoenician_Viking · Mar 13, 2011

Thanks for the explanation guys.
Does that mean, small independent developers have to put their games on SD cards, if the game exceeds some kind of limit? Do they need publishers? What if there are not any?

Ickman3400 · Mar 13, 2011

If those budgets mean I can get Uncharted, Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls on a handheld then I'll be first in line. Unless they're ports of the console games, I have no interest in paying to play the same game twice.

M3d10n · Mar 13, 2011

Luigiv said:
Shouldn't be. Unlike the Wii, the 3DS is capable of streaming straight from the SD card, which means Nintendo can be much more lenient on the Download limits. I expect the limit to be about 2gigs, which is the same size as the largest ROM carts and would put it in line with XBLA.

No way they'll allow 2GB games, since that means a single game would fill the entire SD card that comes bundled with the system. Also, it's much more annoying to download large files on a handheld compared to a stationary console. Even MS, the spearhead of console online gaming and digital distribution, enforced tight limits for years when their systems were limited to 20GB HDDs and ultra small memory cards, to ensure users could have a good downloading and storage experience.

I expect a ~100MB limit.

kswiston · Mar 13, 2011

1) Downloadable titles will be more prominent in the next generation of handhelds (at least on the NGP, hopefully on the 3DS as well. We'll see how successful its digital store is). This gives developers a less costly avenue for low budget games.

2) I think that both publishers could do more to embrace a mid-tier line up of games. Something in between a downloadable title and a full price retail title. Each console should have a line of $20-25 software (that isn't only first party or greatest hits). Not every title is worth $40+ at launch. And while gamers are fine with paying $50-60 for console titles, they seem to be a lot more hesitant to pay full price on handheld titles.

zoukka · Mar 13, 2011

Ickman3400 said:
If those budgets mean I can get Uncharted, Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls on a handheld then I'll be first in line. Unless they're ports of the console games, I have no interest in paying to play the same game twice.

What about lite-versions of said games, which those titles will certainly be? Slap a "prequel" in to the title, alter some assets and there you go. Big time entertainment in small device.

Luigiv · Mar 13, 2011

Beam said:
Thanks for the explanation guys.
Does that mean, small independent developers have to put their games on SD cards, if the game exceeds some kind of limit? Do they need publishers? What if there are not any?

Well we really don't know any specifics at this point but if I were to take an educated guess:

1. The system only has ~1.5GB of user available internally, so naturally anything larger then that will need to be downloaded to an SD card (if Nintendo lets them go over that limit). If the limit is lower then obviously they would need to go retail in order to exceed it.

2. Shouldn't do. Devs were able to "self-publish" on Wiiware and DSiware (and every other digital distribution platform ever) so I think it's pretty safe to assume the same will hold true for 3DSware. Of course devs are still free to team up with a "publisher" if they require extra financing, marketing, QA and/or localisation services.

M3d10n said:
No way they'll allow 2GB games, since that means a single game would fill the entire SD card that comes bundled with the system. Also, it's much more annoying to download large files on a handheld compared to a stationary console. Even MS, the spearhead of console online gaming and digital distribution, enforced tight limits for years when their systems were limited to 20GB HDDs and ultra small memory cards, to ensure users could have a good downloading and storage experience.

Perhaps, though I think Nintendo could safely assume that anyone interested in downloading 3DSware would probably buy a bigger SD card anyway. The included SD card is just there so casuals can share 3D photos with each other without the need for them to include a USB port on the thing.

I expect a ~100MB limit.

Yeah, no. After the whole Wiiware mess there is no way they're going to be that tight on the limit. 512MB minimum, 2GB if they're smart.

MrBelmontvedere · Mar 13, 2011

having just played "The Price is Right" on DS, I'd say that budgets for portables could stand as much of an increase as they can get. seriously low budget shit there.

*BARF*

Neo C. · Mar 13, 2011

confused said:
Develp Article

So what effect do you guys think this could have on the future of portable gaming ?

this is my first thread ever, go easy on me. Also, lock if old. Searched etc.

We more or less knew this since E3. Basically, you can't have original content with top audiovisual quality without higher budget.

If the 3DS can't sell more than the DS and/or can't get a higher tie-ratio, the market will be much more difficult for the devs. And to be fair, it already wasn't easy on the DS.

AceBandage · Mar 13, 2011

MrBelmontvedere said:
having just played "The Price is Right" on DS, I'd say that budgets for portables could stand as much of an increase as they can get. seriously low budget shit there.

*BARF*

The thing is, those kinds of games WON'T see a budget increase.
Budgets don't just magically get bigger with tech. Publishers have to agree to the increased budgets.
We'll still see low quality shit on both the NGP and the 3DS.

Gravijah · Mar 13, 2011

MrBelmontvedere said:
having just played "The Price is Right" on DS, I'd say that budgets for portables could stand as much of an increase as they can get. seriously low budget shit there.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e16/josiahsuarez/the-price-is-right-2008-20080925054750205_640w.jpg[IMG]

*BARF*[/QUOTE]

Shovelware will always be shovelware.

Phoenician_Viking · Mar 13, 2011

Luigiv said:
Well we really don't know any specifics at this point but if I were to take an educated guess:

1. The system only has ~1.5GB of user available internally, so naturally anything larger then that will need to be downloaded to an SD card (if Nintendo lets them go over that limit). If the limit is lower then obviously they would need to go retail in order to exceed it.

2. Shouldn't do. Devs were able to "self-publish" on Wiiware and DSiware (and every other digital distribution platform ever) so I think it's pretty safe to assume the same will hold true for 3DSware. Of course devs are still free to team up with a "publisher" if they require extra financing, marketing, QA and/or localisation services.

Perhaps, though I think Nintendo could safely assume that anyone interested in downloading 3DSware would probably buy a bigger SD card anyway. The included SD card is just there so casuals can share 3D photos with each other without the need for them to include a USB port on the thing.

Yeah, no. After the whole Wiiware mess there is no way they're going to be that tight on the limit. 512MB minimum, 2GB if they're smart.

Thank you so much for the explanation.

Ickman3400 · Mar 13, 2011

zoukka said:
What about lite-versions of said games, which those titles will certainly be? Slap a "prequel" in to the title, alter some assets and there you go. Big time entertainment in small device.

If those games were comparable to the god of wars in quality on psp then I'd probably pick them up, as long as they're new and not ports in any way shape or form. A 100 hour new, portable elder scrolls would be the most amazing thing ever on a handheld.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · Mar 13, 2011

Sounds like a similar jump to every generational leap ever.

Mario said:
Console budgets have come down dramatically in the last two years, and DS/PSP budgets were generally never what they should have been for the expectations of the market (or what they themselves were asking for).

I've been exposed to a bunch of proposed 3DS and NGP projects already, and publishers for the most part aren't even investing double what they were last gen much less triple.

I'm sorry, but you're working with western publishers who are disinterested in spending even a million dollars on a handheld game.

Android18a · Mar 13, 2011

MrBelmontvedere said:
having just played "The Price is Right" on DS, I'd say that budgets for portables could stand as much of an increase as they can get. seriously low budget shit there.

*BARF*

I know that it is low budget, but even on a low budget you can get people with basic design skills and a sense of visual taste. I don't know why budget = ugly look. Low poly, fine. Low res textures, fine. But it should still look coherent and, I dunno... finished? Many 16-bit games had tiny budgets but they usually looked like they'd have effort put in.

wazoo · Mar 13, 2011

Beam said:
Thanks for the explanation guys.
Does that mean, small independent developers have to put their games on SD cards, if the game exceeds some kind of limit? Do they need publishers? What if there are not any?

Devs will need publishers or be self funded like on wiiware or dsiware. If they are published on dsiware, they will be download on the SD card, which will be at least 2GB (and more if you change it).

Retail games will come on their own ROM 2Gb cart.

wazoo · Mar 13, 2011

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I'm sorry, but you're working with western publishers who are disinterested in spending even a million dollars on a handheld game.

Sounds like a normal publisher. Attach rates for handheld is low, and most likely there is no good ROI for a high budget game, not published by Square or nintendo.

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