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Forza 4 has 500 cars, "10x better looks" and Jeremy Clarkson

GTP_Daverytimes

GTP_Daverytimes

Member
sneaky77 said:
cool story.. what does that have to do with Forza 4?.
Click to expand...

What it has to do with Forza is that their representation of the track sucks, along with pretty much any console sim racer, hence why i said that they should follow in the footsteps of games like IRacing and GT5 in track modelling.
 
S

saladine1

Junior Member
schennmu said:
Maybe I'm interested if they fix their physics engine and put in some semi realistic shaders.
Click to expand...
Well,the steering assists from FM3 will be removed for FM4 so that's a start.

With regards to tracks, the ring has been beaten to death. It's nigh time for developers to start including SPA and BATHURST into their games.
I mean, we've had 5 GT's and 3 FM's and still they refuse to include them. Whenever you see a poll or request regarding most wanted tracks, those tracks are nearly always the top two.
Why they haven't been featured yet is beyond me...
 
eso76

eso76

Member
yeah, i will post more soon.
The problem is these models have very few different 'materials' which makes it very hard to tweak surfacing for each part; selecting single polys manually is obviously a pain in the ass.
I don't know whether this lack of different materials is because they went lost in extracting/exporting process or if it's a limit within the game itself (doubtful, but that would partially explain the lack of realism in visuals...a car is made from many different materials, each with their specularity, diffuse, reflectiveness, lightness, transparency etc etc).
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
sneaky77 said:
I thought the steering assistance was only using the xbox controller not wheels..
Click to expand...

Nope, it's on both. Regardless, it's useless that they are taking it off because Microsoft is a bunch of assholes enforcing their XID input protocols, so Logitech or TM (and even most Fanatec) wheels can't be used.

Let's make a sim, brag about it, and say it has the best physics and not be able to use it!

Nice one MS.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
sneaky77 said:
I thought the steering assistance was only using the xbox controller not wheels..
Click to expand...

it's still there even with 900° wheels, although to be honest it only kicks in when drifting/countersteering from my experience.
 
G

G Rom

Member
The game is due for fall 2011, probably october like Forza 3 as september is for Gears 3 and the next CoD will be probably be out by november.

traind said:
Not all of us have been analyzing this to death for the past year... sorry if you have. If you watch it in HD, it is not poorly compressed-- thus the posting of the link-- as the compressed screenshots made it look like the quality was not great.

Anyway, there will be more information on this title soon.
Click to expand...

Well, renders and footage have been around for almost a year now, of course it has already been analyzed to death in different threads. This whole talk about Forza Kinect really is LTTP, especially now that we have more recent direct-feed HD footage...

Off-screen footage, HD or not, is still off-screen footage. Every game will look better off-screen. I'd even go as far as to say the poorly compressed direct-feed footage better represent the demo than the off-screen footage because you have the real look with the real colors, lighting, etc... and not some overexposed image.

Edit :
Slayer-33 said:
Fm3_Box.jpg



What beautiful progression.. Wouldn't you guys say? Can't wait to see how 4 fits in.

Those 3 covers just look so right when together despite being so different.
Click to expand...

Obligatory pic with the superior European/French collectors editions and the Forza 1 press kit as a bonus ! :-D

5562433914_4ddecdf80d.jpg
 
B

benzy

Member
G

G Rom

Member
You think that PGR4's sounds are identical to the video you posted because that's exactly what Bizarre wanted. They went for the sound of videos on Internet instead of the realistic sound that they had done for PGR3. ;-)

In the audio department, beside the request that I did earlier concerning the cockpit view, I'd like to get more bass for engine sounds, specifically when the car is idle. I don't know if it's a limitation of the mics used to record sounds or if it's even possible to capture that but for example you can actually feel in your whole body the sound of an idling Ferrari when standing 1 or 2 meters behind it.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
uh, i've been toying around some more with fm3 models and they appear to have a very limited amount of different surfaces. I'm starting to believe this is not an issue with extracting and converting files, but is a limit with the game itself, where several cars have interiors, parts on the body that should be chrome and parts that should be plastic all sharing the same material (thus reflectiveness, diffuse, lightness etc) just with different textures. No wonder they can't make cars look real if that's the case.

Similarly, cockpits seem to be made of a single surface for most part (everything except mirrors, glass and gauges) with an UV map used to 'paint' elements.
Again, no wonder they look so flat; you will never have metallic parts that look like metal, or parts that look like rubber, or plastic or leather, since it's actually only one material with different textures.
 
D

Diablohead

Member
G Rom said:
The game is due for fall 2011, probably october like Forza 3 as september is for Gears 3 and the next CoD will be probably be out by november.



Well, renders and footage have been around for almost a year now, of course it has already been analyzed to death in different threads. This whole talk about Forza Kinect really is LTTP, especially now that we have more recent direct-feed HD footage...

Off-screen footage, HD or not, is still off-screen footage. Every game will look better off-screen. I'd even go as far as to say the poorly compressed direct-feed footage better represent the demo than the off-screen footage because you have the real look with the real colors, lighting, etc... and not some overexposed image.

Edit :

Obligatory pic with the superior European/French collectors editions and the Forza 1 press kit as a bonus ! :-D

5562433914_4ddecdf80d.jpg
Click to expand...
What did the xbox FM have extra? I know about it but never really seen one. Also I know F3 has the pergoet for france but didn't know forza 2 did the same thing, it's an Aston Martian in the UK
 
S

SCHUEY F1

Unconfirmed Member
Diablohead said:
What did the xbox FM have extra? I know about it but never really seen one. Also I know F3 has the pergoet for france but didn't know forza 2 did the same thing, it's an Aston Martian in the UK
Click to expand...

Canada had the nice Forza 2 collectors edition as well. Did the US not??

Edit: Also I prefer the FM2 LE to the FM3 LE. The book that came FM2 was nice.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
SCHUEY F1 said:
Canada had the nice Forza 2 collectors edition as well. Did the US not??

Edit: Also I prefer the FM2 LE to the FM3 LE. The book that came FM2 was nice.
Click to expand...
The Australian FM2 LE had the 350Z on the front :/ But I agree though, even though it may have been cheaper, I much prefer the booklet that came with FM2 than the (relatively useless) keyring and USB stick with FM3.
 
G

G Rom

Member
The FM Collector Edition only had a dvd with interviews, trailers, etc...

Actually, what I would like is a collector edition combining all 3 types of perks we got in the previous one :

- A nice box like Forza 3
- Some kind of badged object like the keyring and the USB key of Forza 3
- A nice book about the cars, tracks, etc... of the game
- A bonus dvd with making of videos, interviews, trailers, etc...


Of course, the best thing to make it in the collector edition would be a VIP status like it was described in one of the answer of the Intellisponse surveys of Forza 3, ie. its buys you all the DLCs for the game.
 
S

saladine1

Junior Member
I don't exactly remember which racing game it was, but in it's "special edition box", you received a piece of cardboard that smelt like burnt rubber......
 
A

Akira

Member
Slayer-33 said:
Fm3_Box.jpg



What beautiful progression.. Wouldn't you guys say? Can't wait to see how 4 fits in.

Those 3 covers just look so right when together despite being so different.
Click to expand...

I hope the Lexus LFA will be the the cover car for FM4. :D
 
G

G Rom

Member
saladine1 said:
I don't exactly remember which racing game it was, but in it's "special edition box", you received a piece of cardboard that smelt like burnt rubber......
Click to expand...

You're thinking about the Forza 2 ad in EGM which had the burnt rubber smell.
 
M

Mush

6.0
Started playing Forza 3 again this weekend. Wasn't the best of ideas, as it only further increased my frustration that I have a perfectly good wheel sitting in the corner that won't work. :(

Oh well, at least the livery editor doesn't need any extra peripherals. Finally got around to ordering the Ultimate Collection too, so maybe that'll make me a little happier.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
still playing around with renders

F74Pc.jpg
Lx2TF.jpg


ingame models have between 30k and 50k polys (most seem to be 32k)
Certainly not an amazing amount of geometry by any stretch and i'm sure it could be doubled without framerate suffering at all, but i still think with decent shaders (and more materials) they could still look good.
 
G

G Rom

Member
Those are in-game models, right ?
Could you post some renders of the highest LODs (the one in showroom) if you can ?

In-game, when in 3rd person view, I don't really see the need to double the number of polygons if the cars have good shaders and are well lit. Cockpit view and hood view could benefit from having more polygons.
The replays are where I absolutely want to see the high LODs though. The huge number of different view in replays were worthless in Forza 3 because most were close shot of the ugly in-game LOD... :-/

Speaking of which, I hope the replays get a complete overhaul, the floating Forza Cam© needs to fucking die in fire. I want to finally enjoy watching my races in Forza...
 
T

TheOddOne

Member
G Rom said:
Speaking of which, I hope the replays get a complete overhaul, the floating Forza Cam© needs to fucking die in fire. I want to finally enjoy watching my races in Forza...
Click to expand...
This x a billion.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
G Rom said:
Those are in-game models, right ?
Could you post some renders of the highest LODs (the one in showroom) if you can ?

In-game, when in 3rd person view, I don't really see the need to double the number of polygons if the cars have good shaders and are well lit. Cockpit view and hood view could benefit from having more polygons.
The replays are where I absolutely want to see the high LODs though. The huge number of different view in replays were worthless in Forza 3 because most were close shot of the ugly in-game LOD... :-/

Speaking of which, I hope the replays get a complete overhaul, the floating Forza Cam© needs to fucking die in fire. I want to finally enjoy watching my races in Forza...
Click to expand...


Yes, ingame models.
I just wanted to see if polycount really was too low to obtain something believable from a typical viewing distance, and i think when well lit and with better shaders these models could still do.
These are not extremely good renders, mind you, just something i quickly put together as a test.

LOD0 models (the highest lod used in menus and photomode) are a pain in the ass to extract and rather hard to find 'ready' for download but i'll try. They have roughly 10 times the polycount as these (up to 280k polys i think)

Agreed on close ups being horrible because of the low lod model; while they can still be fine from a distance, up close they really look poly starved.

Speaking of which, didn't someone hack FM3 to show at least the player's car in full lod0 (plus full res liveries and 3d rims at all times and a few other tweaks) ? From youtube vids i remember it being still 30fps in replays too.

Cockpits: they are around 40k, 50k polys ingame and actually quite detailed. their problem is they're mostly made of a single surface with just the textures being different. You'd see a huge difference if they had different specularity, glossiness, reflectiveness, lightness, diffuse, bump etc values for different parts which are supposed to be made of different materials (leather, plastic, rubber, metal, chrome etc). I think i'll run some tests with cockpits too soon-ish.

As for replays, they have been getting better, but i still hope T10 lets me place my own cameras along the track and finally give me a full replay editor.
 
D

Diablohead

Member
most of the fm3 ingame cars are fine, a few cars like the mini suffer due to 50p looking light rims but that's just something you can't really fix easily using polygons in modelling.

The shader in fm3 was a step in the right direction, if they can improve that again the cars should look real nice.

I just hope we have more then 8 cars on some of the tracks this time around, 8 is ok for tsubaka but the nurb is screaming for 12+, so is suzuka and road america.
 
T

TheOddOne

Member
saladine1 said:
So when do you think we'll get the 'first' piece of offiical news/info/announcements/media?
E3 perhaps?
Click to expand...
Yeah, E3 seems to be the place for a full blowout. I hope they do a demo, again.
 
D

Diablohead

Member
I'm betting on microsoft's e3 2011 being a complete kinect fest again so in that case forza 4 will surely appear to show off the driving and other kinect things.
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
phosphor112 said:
Nope, it's on both. Regardless, it's useless that they are taking it off because Microsoft is a bunch of assholes enforcing their XID input protocols, so Logitech or TM (and even most Fanatec) wheels can't be used.

Let's make a sim, brag about it, and say it has the best physics and not be able to use it!

Nice one MS.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the steering wheel issue is definitely the biggest problem, although I'm sure MS has done the studies and thinks that the percentage of people who actually buys wheels is just insignificant.

I just think its *too hard* to have a wheel setup because most people play games in their living room and no half decent wheel comes with a racing wheel stand. Always thought MS should've done a Forza 3 + a wheel thats of the quality of the Logitech GT + a stand bundle for like $120 and also do one that includes an arcade system for $300.
 
Apex

Apex

Member
eso76 said:
i was toying around with ingame forza motorsport 3 models in lightwave.
Yeah, like i said before they don't really need to use the uber high poly menu version to achieve a 10x better looking game for 4.
Those models are generally fine, here's a very quick test render with decent-ish materials and shaders (no ray tracing, obviously)

KgyGW.jpg


this is an ingame (lod1) model, it appears they also have a lot more 'interiors' than you'd think
Click to expand...
Those are not ingame models, LOD1 looks like the detail in the car player before the race starts, you can see finer detail in curves and a full modelled interior.

I guess the real gameplay models(replay, third view gameplay and AI cars) are LOD2: 21802 polys.
 
S

sneaky77

Member
infinityBCRT said:
Yeah, the steering wheel issue is definitely the biggest problem, although I'm sure MS has done the studies and thinks that the percentage of people who actually buys wheels is just insignificant.

I just think its *too hard* to have a wheel setup because most people play games in their living room and no half decent wheel comes with a racing wheel stand. Always thought MS should've done a Forza 3 + a wheel thats of the quality of the Logitech GT + a stand bundle for like $120 and also do one that includes an arcade system for $300.
Click to expand...

if i buy a wheel i'll get a stand, but when the wheel alone is $500 with pedals then you're getting into way too much territory..
 
S

sneaky77

Member
TheOddOne said:
Didn't stop them from showing Halo: Reach and Fable 3 last year.
Click to expand...

i thought you meant them releasing a demo before release.. of course they will show Forza 4 in the conference, I think that's a given. I am not sure what Halo reach and Fable have to do with it though
 
BADNED

BADNED

Member
saladine1 said:
So when do you think we'll get the 'first' piece of offiical news/info/announcements/media?
E3 perhaps?
Click to expand...
Some info might be revealed earlier but the big blowout will be at E3.
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
sneaky77 said:
if i buy a wheel i'll get a stand, but when the wheel alone is $500 with pedals then you're getting into way too much territory..
Click to expand...
Truth is, Logitech wheels are fucking over priced (although I don't think they have any wheels even close to $500... you'd be looking at $150-250 for a good Logitech wheel). And they barely cut prices of their wheels, they always like to keep a certain price point as they want it to be a luxury item which sucks.
 
Slayer-33

Slayer-33

Liverpool-2
BADNED said:
Some info might be revealed earlier but the big blowout will be at E3.
Click to expand...


Holy shit it's Badned!

God damn.


Lord almighty have you seen anything? What the Christ, June is too far for my impatience.

:(
 
S

sneaky77

Member
infinityBCRT said:
Truth is, Logitech wheels are fucking over priced (although I don't think they have any wheels even close to $500... you'd be looking at $150-250 for a good Logitech wheel). And they barely cut prices of their wheels, they always like to keep a certain price point as they want it to be a luxury item which sucks.
Click to expand...

unfortunately no logitech for 360.. unless there is a cheaper Fanatec option, all the ones I saw compatible with 360 on their site don't include pedals on the wheel price.
 
NinjaBoiX

NinjaBoiX

Member
G Rom said:
You're thinking about the Forza 2 ad in EGM which had the burnt rubber smell.
Click to expand...
I thought you were thinking of GT3(or 4?) where the disc had a rubber smell applied. I think the tagline was something along the lines of "so real you can smell it."
 
BADNED

BADNED

Member
-NinjaBoiX- said:
I thought you were thinking of GT3(or 4?) where the disc had a rubber smell applied. I think the tagline was something along the lines of "so real you can smell it."
Click to expand...
That was GT2.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
Apex said:
Those are not ingame models, LOD1 looks like the detail in the car player before the race starts, you can see finer detail in curves and a full modelled interior.

I guess the real gameplay models(replay, third view gameplay and AI cars) are LOD2: 21802 polys.
Click to expand...

no, lod1 are ingame models. Trust me, you don't notice how lowpoly this is because of insane AA and shaders, but if i got the camera closer to the model you'd see this is what they cars are like ingame. LOD2 to 5 are used for cars the further they are from the camera.
Player's car before the race starts is LOD0, same as menu
 
T

TheOddOne

Member
sneaky77 said:
i thought you meant them releasing a demo before release.. of course they will show Forza 4 in the conference, I think that's a given. I am not sure what Halo reach and Fable have to do with it though
Click to expand...
My bad, was replying to Diablohead.
 
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