RadiantRule
Banned
Apparently gaming is a numbers game.
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Epic Reveals Samaritan Processing Requirements: 10x 360 at 1080p, (4.4x 360 at 720p)
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
uh why? Samaritan 720p is 1.1 TFLOP/s and ~1TFLOP/s doesn't necessarily mean "lower than" but also "higher than" it could be better like it can be worse.
Karak
Member
Ya reading the many dev diarys in the past couple years that does indeed appear to be bar none a positive.
Karak
Member
Basically the way the ram in a console is placed and works is not the same as a stick and 2g has a specific sweet spot. B3D covers it very well.
As for your last bit that does indeed seem right and reminds me of GUN for the 360. Barely an better than the xbox version and just not impressive then all of a sudden you have Red Dead. Locked boxes can offer some incredible gains by sheer demand of optimization.
To me it feels that some expect far too little. It's troublesome that some expect to pay the same price for less next gen, and don't even seem the slightest bit bothered.
Either that or most of the people talking down the next gen consoles as if they will be no more than mid-range PCs are just members of the "master race" further asserting their dominance over the console plebs by talking as if anyone sticking to consoles next gen had better get accustomed to mediocrity.
Karak
Member
Sadly the "master race" aren't talking down to console owners. The technology has adjusted in one way and not the other. There isn't a magical fix for the issues like generated heat and power because where those technologies come from don't worry about it in the same formfactor. And when they do, Shuttle PC's and so forth, even they have issues and they are way better aerated and larger than a console will be. Sadly its just the fact that the tech has increased but the needs to outfit it have not increased by the same factor. The new consoles, unless some magical fix occurs, will be midrange PC style components or their equivalent. Which is fine because the best part about that is that it will be a closed box allowing for increases in optimization and hopefully some unique chipset features. Seeing games like Gears 3 and Uncharted should always give hope that optimization and fixed specifications can bring wonders.
This is already expected going into a new generation. It's what helps keep the console relevant into it's dying years at the end of the cycle. However, as we saw with the Wii, if the initial jump is not far enough, then having a closed platform with all of the optimization in the world does not bring miracles. The games will still look less impressive than they would have had a proper jump occurred.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The specs will definitely be comparable to mid range PCs at the time of release. But they're closed platforms so devs can extract more performance from them. And that's still a massive improvement over the consoles out now.
It's definitely a matter of expectations and preferences. I'm not going to chide you for wanting the best high end parts for your future console, but I don't feel I deserve condescension for being content with a more moderate estimation either. Console refreshes, to me, are about much more than just hardware. Even if next gen parts end up being optimized mid-range PCs, I think it'll reinvigorate devs. We always see new IPs and franchises spring up on new hardware, regardless of the boost in power from the previous gen.
I certainly don't blame you for wanting a high end PC in your future console though. I just think logic dictates that it's unlikely given the evidence at hand.
RobotChant
Member
The next xbox is rumored to be bundled with kinect. Taking that into consideration, you will be getting more. In the case of PS4, i don't see 599 happening again, so prices will be lowered. Though consumers are getting less in graphics capability, it's also consumers getting what they paid for.
bgassassin
Member
I don't expect it. Start with this post and read the discussion between TOAO and myself.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=35057552#post35057552
And even though it historically hasn't had that much of an effect, we also shouldn't forget inflation. $300 today is worth roughly $260 in 2005. $600 is about $537 in 2006. I wouldn't bring this up if it weren't for the fact that the yen is very strong at the moment, meaning it's even more costly for Japanese companies that make the bulk of their revenue from foreign markets.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
But instead we get game development with a focus on art instead of pushing the most polygons/pixels. Something I think we need a lot more of, something that can be a lot more impactful in the design elements of games, and something that can help seperate gaming from "cinematic" experiences. For such a weak console, the wii also has the widest variety of artstyles and aesthetics, and as the dolphin emulator has shown, good art can often trump pure processing power.
I'd rather play a game that looked like:
http://vimeo.com/36466564
then the next current day military based shooter with the same character designs as every other game, but with more shit flying around and more lensflares, dust sports, light shafts, and the variety of other crap that just muddies up the important visual gameplay cues. (like who's/where's the enemy, where's the objective, and how I died)
Well a large part of why the PS3 was 599, was not graphical capability, but the (at the time) expensive blu ray player they wanted to usher out to consumers and secure the success of a new format.
pieatorium
Member
The two (art and graphics pushing) aren't mutually exclusive, and I would argue your point that the Wii has the widest variety of artstyles and aesthetics.
As a fan of variety, I like when the system allows for both styles to flourish, and the choice to be up to the creators. If they want their game to look like a film or make the player feel as if they are really there with a realistic art style, then I would hope that option be there for the developers rather than having them pigeonholed into making only "artsy" or "cartoony" looking games with tricks to hide the lack of draw distance, amount of characters on screen, physics, or frame rate issues due to hardware limitations.
Less limitations allow for more options and for creativity to run even more wild. Your assertion that more limitations and constraints on the developer allows for more creativity is pretty myopic.
I think PC guys can still look down on console pleebs, just not prop themselves up in a racial manner. 
That said the aggressive push for lower power GPUs is really really taking hold for both AMD and nVidia. So much so that newer cards are launching slower and costing more. Oh well.
Still, the power a 7750 puts out while only drawing 45-60W is very nice. $110 retail.
That said the aggressive push for lower power GPUs is really really taking hold for both AMD and nVidia. So much so that newer cards are launching slower and costing more. Oh well.
Still, the power a 7750 puts out while only drawing 45-60W is very nice. $110 retail.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
art wont flurish if developers are constantly being forced to spend larger budgets on developing high end graphics piplines, higher polygon assets, and trying to keep up with the crysis, uncharteds, and gears'. Especially when we as gamers keep demanding it from them.
Limitation allow for creativity to flourish, people are forced to come up with creative solutions to hardware limitations. Many art students will tell you that open projects are both the most difficult ones to do, and the ones that provide the weakest end work precicely because in the end they trend towards their saftey net, their style, or something nice(ie copy) as opposed to being challenged and attempting to overcome limitation.
and while i understand it's not mutually exclusive, it's very much an issue in my opinion. Look at gears, and how many games look similar to it because when it released it was seen as the "graphics standard" for consoles. I can only name a handful of games that use the unreal engine that aren't specifically attempting "realism" with their artstyle, and only a few more that attempt realism with truly unique look and feel.
iirc, you're thinking of Microsoft Redmond, but I could be wrong.
pieatorium
Member
Can you link me to some of the games that look like gears? I don't think I have seen any. Games that play like gears sure but not the look.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
i think they're close eonough, microsoft employs 7500 people from the bellevue area, and while microsft is not there specifically, they do lease a 26 story building there.
http://www.quantumtheorygame.com/
Yeah, but Bellevue devision is also know to work on hardware/software.
pieatorium
Member
so look at how many games = look at one game?
Let's be frank here. What the world needs is less shooters and more anything else but shooters. And what shooters it does have should be more like borderlands and less like any other shooter out there.
I'm only half kidding
Shooters are alrightish but I do prefer more meaningful interaction with NPCs than just putting bullets in them.
brain_stew
Member
If 4Gb GDDR5 chips are available in mass quantities by launch the 4GB of RAM its not only possible, its the most likely scenario. However, given the mooted timeframe that doesn't look like it will happen in time for MS's launch although Sony may be in better luck.
brain_stew
Member
It shouldn't be a surprise that those following developments in GPU hardware have a better idea of what is possible at a given heat/size/power budget than those that don't. There's no conspiracy, if you want to purpose something different then show a fully costed alternative, with corresponding TDPs, bus widths and memory densities and then we'll talk.
McHuj
Member
Based on the benchmarks from Anand's 77xx reviews, I think those cards would make pretty good console GPU.
Skyrim 1920x1200 Very High 4x MSAA-16AF 7770: 35.7 fps 7750: 31.6 fps
BF3 1920x1200 Ultra + FXAA 7770: 33.1 7750: 7750: 25.9
This card also illustrates the inaccuracy of looking just at flops. The 7770 has less theoretical flops then the 5770 card, 1280 vs 1360 ( about %6 less), yet it performs better than the 5770 in actual gaming, even with early drivers for GCN.
Skyrim 1920x1200 Very High 4x MSAA-16AF 7770: 35.7 fps 7750: 31.6 fps
BF3 1920x1200 Ultra + FXAA 7770: 33.1 7750: 7750: 25.9
This card also illustrates the inaccuracy of looking just at flops. The 7770 has less theoretical flops then the 5770 card, 1280 vs 1360 ( about %6 less), yet it performs better than the 5770 in actual gaming, even with early drivers for GCN.
specialguy
Banned
Well, anybody with some sense would laugh at that, since in a very real sense PC graphics are console-limited today. So if anybody is getting owned, IMO it's more the PC gamers. 90%+ of games are designed for console and then you get slightly sharper textures and higher res on PC, but no fundamental graphical changes.
There's no Samaritan's out there on PC, even though Epic's own presentation showed how it would be easily achievable on todays PC GPU's.
Heck I discuss with my PC gamer brother all the time how bad he wants new consoles to come out so PC graphics will finally get a kickstart.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Indeed. Shader compilers' performance has been playing a crucial role for many generations now. Fixed GPU hw (as in consoles) has a clear advantage here - developers can focus on optimising their shaders for the specific architecture, staying closer to on-paper limits.
It should come around 2013-2014.
So if console comes out at end of 2013, it's GPU can have similarities with SM6 capable GPUs.
7770 is a 100W chip which strikes me as the outer extreme that the consoles will be going for. It's the newest architecture on the newest process node so it's about as efficient as you're going to get (unless nVidia one-ups ATi but I don't think any of the console makers like nVidia at this point).
I really doubt TSMC will have a smaller node available for next year. There'll be a few customizations for the console versions but overall that's what you'll be looking at.
McHuj
Member
Max power consumption is 83W Tech Power Up is measuring at the PCI-E connection and not estimating from the whole system draw. However, the 83W includes not just the GPU, but the PCB, fan cooler, and 4 GDDR5 chips.
Add 4 more GDDR5 chips (or if they go with only 4 DDR3 chips the power draw will be less), optical drive, USB, WIFI, and a ~30W CPU, and the whole system will be under 150W still.
Also, the 28nm process is still early, power/performance/efficiency will continue to improve as manufacturing matures on the node.
Guys, guys... whatever is going into next year's console is being taped out *now*.
The removal of a dedicated fan and PCB isn't going to net you a whole lot of power savings. Regardless, he was correct in saying that a 7770-level GPU is a best-case scenario in your typical console box.
themadcowtipper
Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
No they wait two weeks before they come out to throw a cosole together. Also companies offer MS future tech, just because.
bgassassin
Member
It used a custom made version of OpenGL ES from I remember. But I can't remember what they called it.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Thanks.
Can anyone tell me why do we generally discuss about the DX and its iterations to great extent but not OpenGL?
DirectX has a set of hardware requirements for the graphics card, so it tells you what the card is capable of from a hardware feature perspective.
For example, DirectX 11 compatible cards have compute shaders, which can even be used if you're not using DirectX 11 for programming.
Isn't OpenGL similar in that it allows the same functionalities? Or are the requirements different for customized versions unlike DX because it is open source?
DirectX holds rather strict hardware compatibility standards these days, so saying what DirectX level a card is ultimately tells us a bit more about the hardware, even if you can use OpenGL as a programming language to do the same functions on the card.
Krauser Kat
Member
between 7770 7750 are about what i expect the next consoles to have power wise. Its going to be a cheaper system out the gate and its going to offer great performance in a closed system space.
Eh, be that as it may, isn't it technically possible that next year's consoles will more closely resemble 8000 line GPUs than the 7000 line?
8000 line is still going to be GCN-based, like the mid->high 7000 line.
Heck, some of the low->mid 7000 series is still VLIW-based.
As an example, I remember people in the IGN 720 devkit leak thread saying "why the hell would Microsoft use a 6670-based card when they could get a 7670-based card with better this and that".
I chuckled because the 6670 and the 7670 are *exactly* the same. Both Turks-based.