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Wii FPS Coming?
- Thread starter Grecco
- Start date
soundwave05
Member
Plus there's still tons of people who play old Counter Strike on their PCs. It's not always the canvas, it also comes down to what the painter does with the canvas.
I think someone will come up with a pretty good/fun FPS for the Wii in time. Red Steel was clearly a rushed product, but even then had some interesting aspects to it.
I'd like to see more espionage games for the Wii, I think you could do some really cool stuff with the controller in that type of a setting.
I think someone will come up with a pretty good/fun FPS for the Wii in time. Red Steel was clearly a rushed product, but even then had some interesting aspects to it.
I'd like to see more espionage games for the Wii, I think you could do some really cool stuff with the controller in that type of a setting.
Newzboyz99
Losers! My wife has me on lock!
Mii FPS
Red Steel is a poor game. It's quality has little to do with its controls. If you were to slap a keyboard and mouse on the game, it would be just as bad. It seems to me that people were willing to lower their standards in the face of a different (not necessarily better) control scheme.
ghostlyjoe
Member
dark10x said:
That's not really a fair assumption. From what little I've played it, I didn't particularly care for Red Steel, but I can see how some might enjoy it quite a lot.
Also, if you are really that concerned about innovation, then you should be championing the Wii above the PS3 and 360 like mad.
The Wii philosophy is to promote fun over graphics. What makes games fun? So far we've been discussing physics emulation, dynamic terrain transformations, improved and dynamic AI, and new ideas. The thing is, all these things are possible on the Wii, hell, they're possible on the PS2. The problem is, the more processor power you devote to graphical doodads and sparklies, the less you have to devote to other things. Did you know that if you reduce the polygon count in your average racing game by half, you can add dynamic terrain deformations, dynamic car damage, realistic physics models, and have it all running at 60 fps? But no, you can't do that, because the graphics have to be better than the last game, so all that stupid crap that makes the game more immersive and realistic has to be scrapped.
So you have to give up specular lighting, displacement maps, self-shadowing and high def textures to do it, but you can cram a lot more actual gameplay and innovation into a game if you don't focus so much on what everything looks like. Even essentially graphical innovations (like the dynamic damage to terrain and environment) are not especially resource intensive on their own. But the more polygons and sharper textures there are in that tree you're chopping down, the more calculation work the processor has to do to keep all the buffers in check and prevent tearing.
The fact of the matter is, graphics are really processor hungry. Why do you think we have video cards specifically made to pull all those requests of the main processor's shoulders? Nothing else a computer does (except maybe high quality sound transforms) is that kind of a resource hog. In fact, you dial the graphics back a bit, and you can even do all your physics processing on the GPU, and leave the CPU to handle AI, controls and logic.
So really, the greater power of the PS3 and 360 don't mean anything, unless devs are willing to focus less on making everything look pretty, and more on how everything actually works.
The Wii philosophy is to promote fun over graphics. What makes games fun? So far we've been discussing physics emulation, dynamic terrain transformations, improved and dynamic AI, and new ideas. The thing is, all these things are possible on the Wii, hell, they're possible on the PS2. The problem is, the more processor power you devote to graphical doodads and sparklies, the less you have to devote to other things. Did you know that if you reduce the polygon count in your average racing game by half, you can add dynamic terrain deformations, dynamic car damage, realistic physics models, and have it all running at 60 fps? But no, you can't do that, because the graphics have to be better than the last game, so all that stupid crap that makes the game more immersive and realistic has to be scrapped.
So you have to give up specular lighting, displacement maps, self-shadowing and high def textures to do it, but you can cram a lot more actual gameplay and innovation into a game if you don't focus so much on what everything looks like. Even essentially graphical innovations (like the dynamic damage to terrain and environment) are not especially resource intensive on their own. But the more polygons and sharper textures there are in that tree you're chopping down, the more calculation work the processor has to do to keep all the buffers in check and prevent tearing.
The fact of the matter is, graphics are really processor hungry. Why do you think we have video cards specifically made to pull all those requests of the main processor's shoulders? Nothing else a computer does (except maybe high quality sound transforms) is that kind of a resource hog. In fact, you dial the graphics back a bit, and you can even do all your physics processing on the GPU, and leave the CPU to handle AI, controls and logic.
So really, the greater power of the PS3 and 360 don't mean anything, unless devs are willing to focus less on making everything look pretty, and more on how everything actually works.
There's nothing special about it, though. Nothing.ghostlyjoe said:
It would have been completely forgotten on another platform.
The Wii is no different. It adds a new input device. That's it.
Neither the power of the 360/PS3 nor the capabilities of the Wii-mote have been explored yet and both of them offer plenty of possibilities. Fun is more important than innovation and I do not require innovation to have a good time.
All three machines offer fun. Nintendo's "fun" is aimed towards the masses. It's more simplistic and it's not what everyone is looking for.
When I do go looking for such things, I'll look towards the Wii. When I'm looking for more TRADITIONAL games (which I still love), I believe the Wii will not benefit them in any way (the opposite would occur, really).
Man, it's like the summer of 2004 when Singstar became a success, I haven't been able to buy a non-karaoke game since 
I'm pretty sure it directly lead to the postponement of DNF so they could implement a thorough vocal recoginition engine. Although I can't wait to see what brainbusters they've implemented, I'm really hoping to get my Duke Age down to a mean 21 (just old enough to drink liquor), if I can reach that level then I'm pretty sure Duke won't have any problems winning the Championship Level frisbee competition.
I'm pretty sure it directly lead to the postponement of DNF so they could implement a thorough vocal recoginition engine. Although I can't wait to see what brainbusters they've implemented, I'm really hoping to get my Duke Age down to a mean 21 (just old enough to drink liquor), if I can reach that level then I'm pretty sure Duke won't have any problems winning the Championship Level frisbee competition.Let me just bring up the topic again now that Weather Channel with the spinning globe and the map scroll in Twilight Princes has demonstrated this to work beautifully:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100495&highlight=fps
My question now as then is, why doesn't Prime 3 employ this technique?
You would need one of the main buttons (A, B, Z or C) but isn't that a tiny price to pay for dramatically better control?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100495&highlight=fps
My question now as then is, why doesn't Prime 3 employ this technique?
You would need one of the main buttons (A, B, Z or C) but isn't that a tiny price to pay for dramatically better control?
soundwave05
Member
dark10x said:
I would agree ... but I think this has more to do with the game being rushed by the suits at Ubi Soft, eager to cash in off the Wii launch window. Come hell or high water this game was going to ship for the Wii launch.
If Metroid Prime 3 is a total turd, then yeah, I would agree, there might be bigger issues in play there.
Personally I think the 3rd party community got caught with their pants down as far as the Wii goes a lot of companies are scrambling to get something, anything out on the platform. It wouldn't really surprise me if Red Steel really only ramped up development around early 2006. Looking at some of Ubi Soft's other Wii projects, it seems like they really only got into developer at or even after E3.
Also I think while the Wiimote does open up tremendous possibilities for shooting games, it also opens up a monsterous can of worms. If you're making a Wii FPS, you can't just make a standard engine, get a control scheme coded up in a few weeks, and then just go on and develop the levels from there. Every aspect of the Wii control for a FPS has to be tested, re-tested, tweaked, tested again, and then integrated into a overall game design philosophy.
evilromero
Member
Oh god, Doom Wii. I know it won't happen but I want it too.
soundwave05
Member
MrNibbles said:
This is one that Reggie should really, really look at grabbing. Nintendo and Blizzard have worked together before, and this would be a sensible solution.
Let Retro develop it, since I think the original SC: Ghost devs flew the coop.
Oh, Prime 3 is going to be fantastic. Retro is a great studio.
However, I also believe that Prime 3 might actually have benefitted more from the 360 or PS3. The new Wii control scheme is allowing them to focus more heavily on what I DON'T want in my Metroid (more FPS style combat). The game is about exploration and atmosphere, both of which would be better served by the more powerful machines.
A (very limited) tennis game does not require the power that a FPS game requires. Aside from the ball/control physics (which are very nice) the game is extremely basic in both technology and gameplay.ghostlyjoe said:
Again, I'm not saying that the fault lies with the Wiimote, I'm saying that the control innovations present in Wii Tennis will require much, much more power to translate into the equivilant type of innovation in a FPS.
Graphics Horse
Member
No6 said:
How about an FPS where you only have a tennis racket instead of a gun? You have to rebound all shots and grenades to defeat your enemies.
I'm off to the patent office!
ghostlyjoe
Member
Graphics Horse said:
:lol
ghostlyjoe
Member
No6 said:
The innovation is already there (lobbing grenades, more lifelike aiming, switching to melee (bashing Nazis with the butt of your rifle or stabbing them with your bayonet)). It's now a matter of smoothing it out and perfecting its use in game. It's not that these things couldn't be done on the PS3, but it would be in an altered form, with less direct control (you do a two-handed jab with the SIXAXIS as opposed to an overhead swing the Wiimote, for example). It's the reverse of the graphics situation, where Wii can do pretty much everything the others can do, but in a more rudimentary form.
No, the idea is awesome. Or let's say it has lots of potential. The ability to use the Wiimote as a "hand", using A+B to grab and hold stuff, and use pretty much every object in your surrounding to beat up or throw it at an enemy could really revolutionize the FPS genre.aeolist said:
They're there but as canned animations, all of which can be replicated by button presses. I know the World War Tennis comment was meant as a joke, but that would actually be an example of moving the FPS genre (sorta) forward. The problem is that the Wii most likely couldn't handle that except in a very, very restricted environment.ghostlyjoe said:
AndoCalrissian
Member
There's no reason the environment would have to be more restricted than any other Wii FPS, it would just have to have a high quality physics model and collision detection.No6 said:
As far as canned animations... yeah, developers need to get some 1:1 stuff going on.
Bartman3010
Banned
I'm still waiting for Virtual Console Doom.
If id releases Doom for the SNES, there will be some pretty angry mail coming their way...
If id releases Doom for the SNES, there will be some pretty angry mail coming their way...
No6 said:
Yes, more power means less constraints, that is for sure and I eagerly await to be blown away by modern PC FPSs (I'm a PC gamer myself). But at the same time that does not exhaust all possible paths of innovation.
No6 said:
Uh if you don't see how to put to good use such features, you aren't trying very hard my friend!
First off the wiiconnect24 is not necessarily synonym with dedicated server. It would be much more interesting if it was exploited as a personal persistent world.. A few possible gameplay hints:
- a DS is used as a PDA in the game.
- You can connecto to the net with the DS and access data on the Wii.
- inventory items can be offloaded to the DS, so that you can meet people in the real world and exchange them. Perhaps you and another person have to meet to share two items which, together, form a third item which is needed to advance in the game. Talk about coop!
- agents on the Wii work while the machine it's off, perhaps acting as sidekicks that search for something on the net, basing on your requests (e.g. a bot from your wi that goes playing on servers and when sees someone that corresponds to parameters you gave it, he does something, like talking / giving items etc)
This is by no means an exhaustive list, but you get the idea.
Duckhuntdog
Member
Do they really mean FPS? Or FPA.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
man, I bought red steel on a "I need to see how bad this really is" whim.
Man, that invisible box thing before you start turning is bigger than my house.
Wii FPS also need to do something about the gun, when you turn the stupid dork sticks his arm way out all spastic like and it makes it LOOK even more akward than it already is.
As of now I consider the Wii a collossal failure at the FPS genre, but I expect Retro to do something about it.
Proof that Ubisoft had no ****ing idea about making a game for the wiimote can be found in the "push the controller forward and backwards to zoom in/out" mechanic. Jesus christ my arm hurts thinking about it. It's impossible to aim with your arm held way out straight. WTF.
Man, that invisible box thing before you start turning is bigger than my house.
Wii FPS also need to do something about the gun, when you turn the stupid dork sticks his arm way out all spastic like and it makes it LOOK even more akward than it already is.
As of now I consider the Wii a collossal failure at the FPS genre, but I expect Retro to do something about it.
Proof that Ubisoft had no ****ing idea about making a game for the wiimote can be found in the "push the controller forward and backwards to zoom in/out" mechanic. Jesus christ my arm hurts thinking about it. It's impossible to aim with your arm held way out straight. WTF.
What's worse in the case of Red Steel is that moving outside of the sensor bar window (which happened a lot for me) causes the view and the gun model to completely glitch out. It looked awful.
CoD3 controls so much better (though the sensor bar continued to be a problem as I adjust my hands often). I can't keep my hands in the same position for too long and need to shift my grip on the controllers themselves along with my arms positioning. Very annoying, it was.
catfish said:
Ha, its still 10 000 times better than dual analog control, and ResSteel has pretty good controls besides the zoom thing, im not having trouble at all to shoot the bas guys. I cant see how its a total faillure, the Wiimote actually makes a pretty flawed game very fun to play.
MasterMFauli
Banned
First of all:
Make the gooddam controls like this: Poiting the wiimote (without the use of the sensor-bar!) to the right makes your game-character turn to to the right, pointing to the left turning to the left, pointing upwards up, and so on. (NOTE: DONT use such crap "point at right side of an ingame square to make your view turn to the right").
Now, to look further to the right if you want, and you cant, because obviously you cant move your hand any further: Press the A-Button. This nullifys the position of your wiimote. Now you can move the wiimote into neutral position, then release the A-button, and can turn further to the right. That would be just like PC-gaming, only better.
And i dont get it, why developers dont use this control. I think they´re too obsessed with the direct pointing device, which must be easier to programm than what i described. But using the sensor-bar will:
- turn every fps into kind of a lightgun shooter
- make serious competitive gaming impossible
"My" controls would enable super-fast competition as we´re used from Unreal Tournament or Quake.
And now, @topic:
Time Splitters 4 or Turok Revolution or Armorines 2 or Metroid Hunters Wii.
But let it be exclusive to Wii to generate more buzz about it.
Make the gooddam controls like this: Poiting the wiimote (without the use of the sensor-bar!) to the right makes your game-character turn to to the right, pointing to the left turning to the left, pointing upwards up, and so on. (NOTE: DONT use such crap "point at right side of an ingame square to make your view turn to the right").
Now, to look further to the right if you want, and you cant, because obviously you cant move your hand any further: Press the A-Button. This nullifys the position of your wiimote. Now you can move the wiimote into neutral position, then release the A-button, and can turn further to the right. That would be just like PC-gaming, only better.
And i dont get it, why developers dont use this control. I think they´re too obsessed with the direct pointing device, which must be easier to programm than what i described. But using the sensor-bar will:
- turn every fps into kind of a lightgun shooter
- make serious competitive gaming impossible
"My" controls would enable super-fast competition as we´re used from Unreal Tournament or Quake.
And now, @topic:
Time Splitters 4 or Turok Revolution or Armorines 2 or Metroid Hunters Wii.
But let it be exclusive to Wii to generate more buzz about it.
OK, ignoring the hardware aspect for a bit, I am interested in discussing the control schemes here.
I can aim nearly as well with a dual analog setup as the Wii-mote loses accuracy while attempting subtle motion. The mouse is much more precise than either of them.
Dual analog also provides cleaner, smooth rotation than either of them (perfect for cinematic games). Mouse quality precision is not always necessarily and in these more cinematic, experience based titles, the dual analog setup is sometime preferred. The motion of the Wii-mote is the least refined option for such motion.
It provides neither the accuracy of a mouse nor the fluidity of an analog stick. It's not a bad solution, but I'll take a mouse for Unreal Tournament and a dual analog pad for Halo.
How is it 10000 times better than dual analog? We've had mouse vs dual analog arguments for years, and most feel that dual analog is an acceptable (though not optimal) solution. It works perfectly fine for most games (with only the fastest games presenting any issues). The Wii-mote is inferior to a mouse, however, so that places it somewhere between the two.ksamedi said:
I can aim nearly as well with a dual analog setup as the Wii-mote loses accuracy while attempting subtle motion. The mouse is much more precise than either of them.
Dual analog also provides cleaner, smooth rotation than either of them (perfect for cinematic games). Mouse quality precision is not always necessarily and in these more cinematic, experience based titles, the dual analog setup is sometime preferred. The motion of the Wii-mote is the least refined option for such motion.
It provides neither the accuracy of a mouse nor the fluidity of an analog stick. It's not a bad solution, but I'll take a mouse for Unreal Tournament and a dual analog pad for Halo.
How on earth would that be superior? Adding an additional button into the mix would not improve things AND you still have to contend with the less accurate pointer.
dark10x said:
The pointer is accurate, its just not implemented that way in RedSteel, if you play Wiiplays shooting range, you would understand what i mean. From the sound of it, you havent played Redsteel much, or maybe you have played it, but just suck at it. No way could this game be played with a dual analog setup, you wouldt even get past the later levels, its a fast action title and the enemies are everywhere, above and below, which would be very frustrating to play with dual analogs.