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MLK party on Texas campus causes uproar
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RevenantKioku
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I just think it's more leaning towards ignorance than racist. And while I'm a little bit of an idealist, I think ignorance is more easily cleansed than racism.weepy said:
Greenpanda
Banned
RevenantKioku said:
How could these people possibly claim "ignorance" of racism? It's not like the offensive of this stuff is some kind of great big secret.
And even if they WERE ignorant, it's THEIR responsibility to educate themselves. Ignorance only means they've failed in their responsibility to be a decent citizen
.Greenpanda
Banned
G4life98 said:
noooo kidding
RevenantKioku
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Maybe I'm using the terms wrong, but I think they're just acting idiotic and ignorant. They're not directly, only indirectly, causing harm.Greenpanda said:How could these people possibly claim "ignorance" of racism? It's not like the offensive of this stuff is some kind of great big secret.
And even if they WERE ignorant, it's THEIR responsibility to educate themselves. Ignorance only means they've failed in their responsibility to be a decent citizen
And it's a two way street. Granted they may be the ones not doing the work, but understanding doesn't happen by chance.
But I think your flippant attitude is almost as bad and I can see it justifying these actions to these idiots.
See my first post:
Many (if not most) people are very inconsistent; and have little interest in establishing a holistic, consistent life philosophy. This is nothing but anecdotal evidence, but I've known plenty of people who would make racist jokes and generalisations, and even dress in blackface for halloween. Yet these same people are vehemently anti-KKK/Nazi/right-wing ideology in general, pro-civil rights, happy to promote interracial marriage, and appreciative of black culture. The overall ideology is one of tolerance, but tolerance doesn't always equate to constant respect, political correctness, and care not to offend black sensibilities behind closed doors. The insensitive and offensive may not be one's best friends, but it's foolish to paint them with the same brush as those who mean one actual harm.
I submit to GAF that a known white supremacist would have a far tougher time working his way into mainstream politics than a member of any racial minority.
Aske said:
Many (if not most) people are very inconsistent; and have little interest in establishing a holistic, consistent life philosophy. This is nothing but anecdotal evidence, but I've known plenty of people who would make racist jokes and generalisations, and even dress in blackface for halloween. Yet these same people are vehemently anti-KKK/Nazi/right-wing ideology in general, pro-civil rights, happy to promote interracial marriage, and appreciative of black culture. The overall ideology is one of tolerance, but tolerance doesn't always equate to constant respect, political correctness, and care not to offend black sensibilities behind closed doors. The insensitive and offensive may not be one's best friends, but it's foolish to paint them with the same brush as those who mean one actual harm.
I submit to GAF that a known white supremacist would have a far tougher time working his way into mainstream politics than a member of any racial minority.
Greenpanda
Banned
RevenantKioku said:
OK, fair enough -- I'll certainly agree on the idiotic / indirect harm. I just don't think they can't claim that they didn't know any better.
RevenantKioku
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I dunno. Some of us are blessed with a mixture of people to interact with, others are not. Sometimes it takes time.Greenpanda said:
I remember two of the biggest bullies in my grade school in my youngest years were also the only two black children in my class. It took a nerdy black guy to come to my school and become my friend to open my eyes. Now, I was a young child and unaware of all the many evils of the world, but I believe there is often a reason for ignorance and that it can often be quelled in the right situations.
Edit: I think these kids in the pictures are total assbags, mind. And I have little hope for them having their eyes opened. And I may, hell I'm probably entirely off, but I can at least hope some people turn out better, can't I? "/
BigGreenMat
Member
Another no-win thread.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
I still can't believe there are parts of America that are so white. :O
We've got that here, but it's a more sickening soap scum effect. The paranoid crackers all linger around the outer perimeter of the city, like soap scum and build faux communities in the form of a god damned shopping center. Makes my skin crawl.
The nice part is the area is becoming so impoverished that the crime is finally spilling out into Whiteyville. Hua hua hua hua! You can't run away and ignore the problem forever!
I need to do some travelling. I'm looking to relocate to warmer climates, but god damn if people down south don't cry about the Messycans in all the on-line forums I've been reading about Phoenix, Austin, and Tucson.
I dunno. So long as nobody hijacks my trailer in the desert it's all cool. Screw everyone!
We've got that here, but it's a more sickening soap scum effect. The paranoid crackers all linger around the outer perimeter of the city, like soap scum and build faux communities in the form of a god damned shopping center. Makes my skin crawl.
The nice part is the area is becoming so impoverished that the crime is finally spilling out into Whiteyville. Hua hua hua hua! You can't run away and ignore the problem forever!
I need to do some travelling. I'm looking to relocate to warmer climates, but god damn if people down south don't cry about the Messycans in all the on-line forums I've been reading about Phoenix, Austin, and Tucson.
I dunno. So long as nobody hijacks my trailer in the desert it's all cool. Screw everyone!
The Take Out Bandit
Member
mac said:
Why's he got Italian flag colors?
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Such ignorance and stupidity. They shouldn't get suspended for this though. I used to be of that mindset, but, now...not so much. The internet is a crazy place and I'm sure Karma will bite each and everyone of them in the ass some how.
Aske said:
Are these people even aware of these inconsistencies? I don't know, that sound kind of two-faced imo. These sound like the type of people that'll crack a racist joke and go "no, it's cool man. My best friend is black." I knew a few ppl like that. They'll say horrible sh*t about my race/ethnicity in my face and go "Oh but not you, you're different..."
I mean, I'm all for free speech and everything but even I have my limits.
But if you share them kind of sentiments behind closed doors you're just basically putting up a front to the individual you claim you respect. People from all ethnicities/cultures/sexualities have my utmost respect ALL the time, not just when I'm around them. As I've said before, it seems kinda two-faced.
This sounds like closet-bigotry...
AlanHemberger
Banned
I'm sorry, the news article in the OP is hilarious for so many reasons.
weepy said:
No, they aren't aware of the inconsistencies, or if they are they're too lazy to put in the thought to iron them out.
Again, I'm simply saying that disrespect does not equal hate. Not saying it's good for black people; just that it's not in the same exact category as, say, the KKK. And to assume these mindsets are identical is unwise.
weepy said:
Two faced might be a good word. People have many faces. How many times have you heard a co-worker say really, really unpleasant things about another co-worker behind his/her back? And how many times has the gossiping co-worker sincerely hated whoever was being gossiped about? How many people who make insensitive gay jokes truly hate homosexuals? You don't have to be politically correct 100% of the time in order not to be at the same end of the racist spectrum as Hitler; that's the only point I'm making. Not saying anyone is wrong to be offended by the insensitive; just that those people are wrong to assume all attitudes of racism equate to race hate.
weepy said:
From Dictionary.com:
bigotry [big-uh-tree]
noun, plural -ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.
I disagree. It sounds like white people making jokes at the expense of black people. At worst it sounds like they don't give a damn about the feelings of black people. That is not the same thing as maintaining a stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief or opinion that differs from one's own. To be unconcerned about a person's feelings is not the same as to be unconcerned about their rights in society.
The word racist applies to anyone who discriminates based on race, and so it applies to a wide range of mentalities and actions; some much more or much less hateful than others. The word 'bigot' relates only to sincere intolerance - as in "I hate all black people, I wish they did not exist in my country." How many people who are happy to make fun of gays, religious people or the handicapped would also express a genuine intolerance for their very existence? Accusations of bigotry require a lot more evidence than mere willingness to cause offence.
PhoenixDark
Banned
:lolmac said:
BigGreenMat
Member
Aske said:
THANK YOU. Finally someone decides to understand what the hell they are talking about. I am so sick and tired of people equating not caring about hurt feelings as bigotry, racism, and hate speech.
DarienA said:
Every little bit helps. I really was thinking about the subject this entire morning. Couldn't get away from the Isaiah Washington story.
AlanHemberger
Banned
There is no blame, only shame. =(
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
Big Zep said:
those arent biscuits....
AlanHemberger
Banned
Like I can say "Fat people are disgusting slobs and they smell like ****ing ass because they're really sweaty and nasty lolz!" But I can't say "Fat people shouldn't be allowed to go to movie theaters because I can hear all the fat in their bodies sloshing around! BAN THEM!"weepy said:
Sure it's insensitive, but it's a free speech deal. It's not hurting anyone to say it in reality.
Aske said:
weepy said:
I'm not good at translating sentences into propositional logic, but here goes.
p (unconcerned about a person's feelings)
q (unconcerned about their rights in society)
r (people have the right to treat others anyway they see fit)
s (they don't tread on their civil rights)
aske
~(p=q) (It is not the case that p is equivalent to q)
weepy concludes
s > r (So long as s then r)
~(p=q) / s > r
Clearly an invalid inference on Weepy's part.
bigmakstudios
Banned
Because they're morons.
WrathOfOtaibah
Banned
Free speech and freedom of expression is a cornerstone of a Democracy and a Republic unless its to incite violence. What they did was inexcusable but they didn't really commit a crime.
I suppose it could be done as a statement about how MLK would be rolling over in his grave but its unlikely. It was basically a pack of dumbasses mocking black people and their perceptions of black people.
A stupid thing done but no crime. When a feminist professor can run around and shriek that all men are rapists, bigotry and talking out of your ass is a part of college.
I suppose it could be done as a statement about how MLK would be rolling over in his grave but its unlikely. It was basically a pack of dumbasses mocking black people and their perceptions of black people.
A stupid thing done but no crime. When a feminist professor can run around and shriek that all men are rapists, bigotry and talking out of your ass is a part of college.
Mercury Fred
Banned
hugrerolleyes.gifThe Experiment said:
At least one women's studies course should be required for all college students.
Quite a dark line of thought this is, suggesting the illegality of dressing in a costume or saying a word.
Like college kids don't have to endure enough boring and / or unneccessary crap in their curriculum. If you're getting a degree in a closely related field, maybe, but otherwise, pray tell, why?
I don't need to read about Elizabeth Cady Stanton to know that gender equity is awesome.
Mercury Fred said:
Like college kids don't have to endure enough boring and / or unneccessary crap in their curriculum. If you're getting a degree in a closely related field, maybe, but otherwise, pray tell, why?
I don't need to read about Elizabeth Cady Stanton to know that gender equity is awesome.
BigGreenMat
Member
JayDubya said:
Amen! I am still waiting for girls to catch up with the ideas of gender equity though. Can't tell you how many times at the end of a date I have had to yell at the girl 'you have a job too damnit! Why should I pay for you? If you are free to join the workforce then you are plenty able to buy your own way through!'
I have never said that, but I have definately felt like it
Greenpanda
Banned
APF said:
I never claimed to be tolerant -- and I wouldn't, because, no, I'm certainly NOT tolerant of racism. Why should we be?
The idea that "tolerating" other people's hatred somehow makes us more enlightened is an idiotic meme that should have died years ago. The net result of failing to properly condemn these kinds of actions is that it encourages more racism and tolerant. In the end, how is that even tolerant? If we want any kind of real change, we need to put our money where our mouths are and enforce some kind of meaningful moral standard. Looking the other way only means we're lazy and guilty through complicity.
RevenantKioku
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Okay, but these people may see what you say and go "Oh, this black guy is crazy! Can't take a joke and now wants people dead?" Doesn't exactly help the situation.Greenpanda said:
Greenpanda said:
I don't think a person who calls for the brutal beating and murder of human beings should talk about other people's supposed hatred. Nor should such a person talk about moral standards. Under what ethical standards can one justifiably beat people to death for playing up stupid stereotypes?
Judge Greenpanda: What did the accused do?
Attorney: Well you see there was Polish joke told...
Judge Greenpanda: Off with his head!!!
Attorney: No, you see he didn't tell the joke, he killed the man who did.
Judge Greenpanda: That different. Let him go... And give him a medal.
AlanHemberger
Banned
Most definitely.weepy said:
Christopher
Member
wow did she really dress up as Aunt Jamima? :lol it's so stupid it's funny.
However, racism isn't cool guys no reason to have a themed party so classless, and I've been to some pretty classless parties, tsc tsc
However, racism isn't cool guys no reason to have a themed party so classless, and I've been to some pretty classless parties, tsc tsc
Greenpanda said:
Okay look. You can dislike it. You should dislike it. You should be able to express your displeasure about it.
You can't advocate the whole "let's kill all the bigots" thing. >_> Well, technically, you CAN advocate it. We just won't like it, and we'll express to you why such a thing if it were actually to become policy or law would be TERRIBLE and would create a dystopian hell if brought to its logical conclusion.
Christopher
Member
weepy said:Do tell.
nothing in terms of racisms, just some really retarded ones for example:
There was a pagent in my fraternety called Mrs "...." and the girls had 30 seconds on stage to do like the "sexiest" things they could do, I saw this one girl deep throat like a huge squash end
...she won too. Classless, but at the same time retarded, nothing like this.Greenpanda said:
I would argue that being tolerant of some forms of racism is a necessity in a tolerant, multicultural society. There are degrees of racism, and there are degrees of tolerance.
That is of course assuming we're using the word 'racism' in the colloquial, catch-all manner that defines any racially discriminatory behaviour as racist, regardless of whether or not the underlying philosophy of the person or persons responsible is in fact truly bigoted.
You said:
Greenpanda said:
But to tolerate racism is not always to tolerate hatred. Various different people treat members of their own ethnic groups differently to members of other ethnic groups. Mainstream western society calls this racist, just as it calls the actions of these students racist; but it does not have to equate to a hatred of other ethnic groups, and it only becomes a problem in a multicultural society when it manifests as negative discrimination.
Interestingly, the dictionary defines racism like this:
racism [rey-siz-uhm]
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
But by those definitions there was nothing racist about the students' behaviour. I suppose the dictionary is a bit less progressive than contemporary western society on this one.
To return to my point, most people would accept that the racial prejudice of a Vietnamese American who wished only to marry another Vietnamese American is an acceptable one. Is it racist by our colloquial definition? Absolutely. Is it hateful? Certainly not. If that prejudice evolved to the point at which the man in question infringes on the civil rights of others, that's a different issue; but the first mindset does not have to go hand in hand with the second.
Race relations are not simply polarised between two groups of total tolerance and total hatred. There are many emotional shades of grey. Racism is exemplified by a preference for romantic relationships with members of one's own ethnicity. It's also a preference not to have a relationship with a member of a specific ethnicity. It's a desire to laugh at a racial group. It's a desire to stereotype a racial group. It's a feeling of kinship to those of the same race, or a feeling of alienation from those of another. And yes, of course it can also be race hate.
Culture is formed by a shared set of tastes and values. A multicultural society is a society in which various different groups of people with different tastes and values live together under the same social umbrella. Laws must exist equally over each group in order to maintain order, but how far these laws police thoughts, opinions and tastes is the difference between a true multi-culture, and a mono-culture. Most sub-cultures (and individuals) have opposing tastes, but we ostensibly live in a society in which different tastes are allowed to exist, as opposed to one in which diversity is quashed in order to comply with the offended majority. I may not care for the behaviour of these students, but I defend their right to express their tastes. In my view, offence should not be a basis for law. Feel free to disagree. But regardless, a willingness to indulge in offensive behaviour does not equate to a hatred of those who are offended. A willingness to be openly racist in a discriminatory (but not hateful) manner is not proof of bigotry. You're essentially advocating the execution of people whose actions you feel are in bad taste.
WrathOfOtaibah
Banned
Mercury Fred said:
What the hell do you know about what I know?
Agreed.
Yeah but killing is a pretty extreme solution.
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