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New PS4 Details: Automatic Caching Games Not Install

Lion

Member
I disagree. It's not the entire game that it's cached to the HDD.

Is not clear thought, whether that part of the game install is optional or mandatory.

I think it is the whole game that gets installed the first time. The question would be if after you get to certain places in the game and, save there, then continue playing another session in a different time, would it require you to cache all the game again or just what is needed from the part u got to the last time?

Less blu-ray drive use = better. I don't want another PS3 situation where it'll break in a few years.

I understand the concern but, didn't we have consoles (up until now) that made a more intensive use of disc media as the games were actually being always streamed from it? If anything I foresee that this time around the use you will get from the drive will be, if anything, less than previous generations.

Edit: Sorry English is not my first language I do many mistakes with it, that's why I edit a lot (lol).
 

Minions

Member
This is awesome. So it will read/play off the disc until it has enough cached, then will play off the hard drive instead. I don't see any issue with this to be honest. If it stopped you from playing until it cached enough of the game that would be a negative, however not having a delay means it is a non issue.
 

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
No, you can do that on the 360, nothing to do with Xbone DRM.

People want less moving parts as possible. People had problems with disc trays since console started to use fucking discs. GTA5 example is an anomaly and would still be possibly by developer choice.

One time install with the disc being used just for authentication is the best option and it should be an option.



Calm the jesus fuck down.

I know about the 360 install, but the XB1 never intended to play off discs ever. I don't know if the PS4 intends to use the discs after it has been fully cached, but it should be an option. If the HD can reliably give 50MB/s and loads are too long, it would be great to get an additional 20MB/s from the BRD.

Available memory is up like 10x, while HD speeds are nearlythe same. I don't want a 10x load time if it means the system is quieter.
 
Where does it say you don't need 50 GB?
Why does CoD Ghost's box clearly says “MINIMUM 49 GB”?

What is the difference between caching, and install? Is it just words?
If it's caching, does it mean the background caching needs to be done each and every single time?

I'm just completely lost there.

Well if you install games then you lose that portion of the HDD.
If you're caching then that space can be still used for something else later on.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Or maybe you are reading too much into that Cerny's quote.

I'm not reading anything into it, I'm repeating exactly what he said in that interview. The people in this thread who are reading too much into something are those who base their arguments on a few vague and ambiguous tweets from Yoshida.
 

Lion

Member
Source? Care to indicate which part is wrong?

If it was true then why would games boxes tells you how much space you need to play certain a game? If you had a reserved space to play all games it wouldn't be needed to specify that. It is not reserved, it is used if is available, if is not u cant play, is very simple.
 

Withnail

Member
All of it. My post is 102 on this thread for the correct info, or see any of Ckolher's posts.

OK mystery dude, I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.

If it was true then why would games boxes tells you how much space you need to play certain a game? If you had a reserved space to play all games it wouldn't be needed to specify that. It is not reserved, it is used if is available, if is not u cant play, is very simple.

Yeah good point. Happy to stand corrected but the original info did sound very like the caching system currently in use on the PS3.
 
If it was true then why would games boxes tells you how much space you need to play certain a game? If you had a reserved space to play all games it wouldn't be needed to specify that. It is not reserved, it is used if is available, if is not u cant play, is very simple.

If you download 460 GB worth of games, you won't be able to cache CoD. Downloaded games won't be cached. They'll be locked installs.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
If you know the details....so there is no option for me whatsoever to choose "install" from the os to install the game before I boot it?

No, because it's not necessary. It will happen automatically as you play, so you don't need to sit through an installation.

It is not reserved, it is used if is available, if is not u cant play

Yep. Except the console might automatically delete old cached data if it needs to, rather than just telling you there's no room. That's a detail we don't know yet.
 
I assume this is similar to the Uncharted games, where the game will cache in the memory so if you stop playing and re load the game, it will load faster unless you play a different game that overwrites the cache.
 
If you know the details....so there is no option for me whatsoever to choose "install" from the os to install the game before I boot it?

No there is not, it is automatic on putting the disc in the drive, after a few moments you can boot the game and then it will continue to install the data in the background until the enter contents of the disc is on the HDD, the disc has to be in the machine for the game to boot. End of.

I do not know what happens if the system does not have enough space to copy the entire game, i assume it will just read the data at disc read speeds, and if you try to save data in the game it will just ask you to free up the required space.
 

Foxix Von

Member
Absolutely excellent news. I was worried I would run out of hard drive space very quickly.

Just make sure to avoid SSDs going into the future. This machine will absolutely wreck them, :lol
 

c0de

Member
The system will reserve the space from day 1. If the space is full, the oldest stuff gets deleted. That's how a cache works. It's almost certainly going to be invisible to the user.

There are several ways on how or when a cache-data gets overwritten, not just "oldest".
 
Is not clear thought, whether that part of the game install is optional or mandatory.

I think it is the whole game that gets installed the first time. The question would be if after you get to certain places in the game and, save there, then continue playing another session in a different time, would it require you to cache all the game again or just what is needed from the part u got to the last time?

Only some specific data is cached to the HDD. Did you play the original Xbox? It's exactly the same. Caching games to the HDD is not something new.
 

Caronte

Member
Info is wrong, or your reading it wrong. All games fully install in the background while playing them, so yes Killzone takes up 39GB for the entire time it's on the system, you can delete this data at any time, but if want to play it again you have to have 39GB free on the system. This is fact

Source?
 

LAA

Member
Awesome!!!
Not like I would have a choice between mandatory installs or not, but awesome the HDD wont fill up as fast as it was looking...

Seems it'll just mean you'll need a certain amount of space on your HDD to play game, which the game will use during gameplay and delete it after its closed, not exactly awesome news there, but beats installs.
 

Skyzard

Banned
Sony getting devious. I have no clue what cache is supposed to mean/compare, how about clarification. Preorder cancelled.
 

Lion

Member
Only some specific data is cached to the HDD. Did you play the original Xbox? It's exactly the same. Caching games to the HDD is not something new.

Yeah, well I did had one but by that time I really (was too young) didn't bothered to understand the mechanics (lol). So yeah, if it means I wont need to be installing 50GB games on the system or having loading problems I don't see how anything of it could be bad or wrong compared to installed games, plus I get to sell the game for some money if I ever get tired of it.

That to say I'm not seeing so much the benefits of "digital only" at the moment other than not needing to change the disc of the games every time but that is another topic.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Only some specific data is cached to the HDD.

Why do you keep insisting that Cerny was lying in that interview? Again: "... what we do as the game accesses the Blu-ray disc, is we take any data that was accessed and we put it on the hard drive."

This quote explicitly says that all data accessed on the BD gets put on the HDD. What's your source for only some data being cached?
 

TwistedMind

Neo Member
Honestly I'd prefer them being installed. What happens if you switch games a lot? Your HDD is being constantly written?

Having no install option make no sense for me,when you upgrade battlefield 4 from PS3 to PS4 you will download the game from the ps store and you will use the PS3 disk to authenticate, so the mechanism is already there. I think this caching option is for people with limited hd space with no desire to upgrade the hard drive and lots of indie & digital games which can't be cached.
 
All of it. My post is 102 on this thread for the correct info, or see any of Ckolher's posts.
Fact, based on what though?

Your personal experience of the console? Because if it isn't - it isn't a fact because the quotes we have on this subject an be interpreted in multiple ways or use technical terms that can be operated in different ways.

In Cerny's quote we have him explaining how you download/install whatever data is required to get the game running and then in the background additional data is moved to the hard drive from the disc or your download.

Shu's quote is telling the questioner asking about if full installs are required that it is "not install", and mentions it is a cache.

Now, Cerny never mentions if the data from Blu-ray is permanent - in other words it installs in the background. So it is very possible that Cerny is saying you have the mandatory install at the start and once that is done and additional data is going onto the hard drive in the background, but into the cache area.

So as a possibility it in no way contradicts what Shu is saying, in that data is cached - not installed.

Therefore I see no reason anywhere that what you claim is a fact.

In both cases - installing and caching, all data would be moved to the hard drive. However the difference is that with installing you have to manually delete that data once you're done with it.

With caching, you do not. Depending on how they cache it will either remove old data as the cache becomes full or after the session is finished but however it is cached, everything is done automatically without you intervening. The only remaining data for the game on your hard drive would be the initial mandatory install to get the game up and running.

This method allows you to have many more games installed on your system at any one time - and makes the most logical sense if the priority is to allow that.

Of course, it does not mean that they have done that.
 
Why do you keep insisting that Cerny was lying in that interview? Again: "... as the game accesses the Blu-ray disc, is we take any data that was accessed and we put it on the hard drive."

This quote explicitly says that all data accessed from the BD gets put on the HDD.

I don't think he was lying. I think he was just talking about the data that is supposed to be cached.
 

Lion

Member
Honestly I'd prefer them being installed. What happens if you switch games a lot? Your HDD is being constantly written?

Nothing happens that's what HDD's are for.

Edit: Well I should clarify and say there is not conclusive evidence (that I can refer to), that X amount of data (or cycles) written to a Hard Disk Drive will kill it prematurely.

So SSD in ps4 is not a good idea?

I would say no, if your drive will be constantly writing-rewriting game data on it. Also I don't know if it will make games be faster, if we assume we don't get load times at all using a HDD what is the point of a SSD drive?
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
I don't think he was lying. I think he was just talking about the data that is supposed to be cached.

I'm reading it as a completely automatic, OS-level feature where all games always get cached without devs having to do anything special. They just request the data they need, and the console decides if that data comes from the disc or the HDD, just like with a regular CPU cache. If the data requested is on the HDD it will be read from there, otherwise it will be read from the BD and simultaneously copied to the HDD so it's there next time it's needed. This should be transparent for devs, they don't have to decide what should get cached and what shouldn't.
 

BigDug13

Member
jumptoconclusionsmat.jpg

Only question is if the cache stays as long as there is free space or if it automatically deletes when you change games.

Why is it jump to conclusions when the PS3 to this day still does not give the user the option to force the disc to be installed onto the HDD?
 
I'm reading it as a completely automatic, OS-level feature where all games always get cached without devs having to do anything special. They just read the data they need, and the console decides if that data comes from the disc or the HDD, just like with a normal CPU cache. If the data requested is on the HDD it will be read from there, otherwise it will be read from the BD and simultaneously copied to the HDD so it's there next time it's needed. This should be transparent for devs, they don't have to decide what should get cached and what shouldn't.

MS already did the same thing with the original Xbox. Each game cached some data to the HDD. It was completely completely automatic. Games installed the data during the loading times. However, devs must decide what data is going to be cached.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
MS already did the same thing with the original Xbox. Each game cached some data to the HDD. It was completely completely automatic. Games installed the data during the loading times. However, devs must decide what data is going to be cached.

That means nothing for the PS4.
 

RaikuHebi

Banned
Let's reiterate again.

The PS4 will install and play ALL games from the HDD. This will be done automatically in the background as you play the game. The game files will not delete as soon as you play a different game.

They have said this will be the way things will be done since E3 IIRC.

Because PS3 installs remain on the system until manually deleted.
And that will be the case with the PS4 as well.
 

Caronte

Member
This method allows you to have many more games installed on your system at any one time - and makes the most logical sense if the priority is to allow that.

Not fully installed, though. Which is what many of us wanted. It seems like it will be the same as how GTA V works, but instead of installing everything it needs at the beginning it will do it while playing the game.

I wish they would have given the option to install everything.
 

RaikuHebi

Banned
How long will it take to cache 50 GB of data?
1-2 hours.
Not fully installed, though. Which is what many of us wanted. It seems like it will be the same as how GTA V works, but instead of installing everything it needs at the beginning it will do it while playing the game.

I wish they would have given the option to install everything.
The games will be fully installing to the HDD through this method.
 

Raist

Banned
Let's reiterate again.

The PS4 will install and play ALL games from the HDD. This will be done automatically in the background as you play the game. The game files will not delete as soon as you play a different game.

They have said this will be the way things will be done since E3 IIRC.


And that will be the case with the PS4 as well.

Jeez. They specifically say CACHING and not INSTALLING. They even said you can't do a full install of the game.

So yes, data is wiped once you stop playing. That's the definition of a cache. It's temporary.
 

RaikuHebi

Banned
Jeez. They specifically say CACHING and not INSTALLING. They even said you can't do a full install of the game.

So yes, data is wiped once you stop playing. That's the definition of a cache. It's temporary.
They are using the wrong terminology. Up to this point they've said games will install fully to the HDD. It would be weird for that to change all of a sudden.

A cache method would be incredibly inefficient, putting strain on the HDD and Blu-Ray drive.
 
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