Support NeoGAF

Hobbun · Mar 19, 2009

Yes, the obvious answer is "We need to buy more." But that's the problem, we don't. RPGs have never sold well.

It is really disheartening when a phenomenal game like Valkyria Chronicles is released and its sales are well under 100K. Or Dragon Quest, which is huge in Japan, has paltry numbers in NA. And Atlus USA, (wisely) does limited print runs with their games because they know they won't sell a ton of them.

Then we look at games like Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Mario, Call of Duty as well as a plethora of other games (mostly shooters) that sell a million+.

However, with RPGs, with the exception of a few (Final Fantasy Pokemon comes to mind) where they have broken 1 million.

What do developers need to do to sell RPGs with those larger numbers? And without compromising the gameplay of what makes them RPGs?

And it is a bit alarming with the increased production costs. I had heard (and maybe I am wrong) but Valkyrie Chronicles cost in the area of 11 million. However, for NA, it hasn't even come close to breaking 100,000 copies sold.

For me, it is a bit worrisome. Yes, I can hear a lot saying "Oh, they won't stop making RPGs". But honestly, why shouldn't they if they continue to never sell anywhere near a Halo or Mario? Or worse, continue to sell below what it cost to make the game?

rocK` · Mar 19, 2009

NA needs to drop their ADD 'halo' stereotype ridden gamers and broaden their taste to a genre that is about patience and thinking.

sixteen-bit · Mar 19, 2009

Hobbun said:
However, with RPGs, with the exception of a few (Final Fantasy Pokemon comes to mind) where they have broken 1 million.

you forgot Oblivion, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, etc.

Yes Boss! · Mar 19, 2009

Yep,

_dementia hit is spot on. RPGs are seemingly more popular than ever right now. Just gotta include Western-developed RPGs. I know I've bought far far more this generation than previous generations.

Hobbun · Mar 19, 2009

_dementia said:
you forgot Oblivion, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, etc.

Yes, Oblivion, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, etc. are RPGs, but I meant JRPGs. I'm sorry, I should have clarified.

But is that they only way to increase the sales? Make it more a shooter/first person RPG?

Dead Man · Mar 19, 2009

Different tastes in gaming in different cultures. Might as well ask what needs to be done to increase the sale of FPS's in Japan.

Also as has been mentionsed, plenty of RPG's do really well. They just tend to be first person, western RPG's.

Kill Your Masters · Mar 19, 2009

rocK` said:
NA needs to drop their ADD 'halo' stereotype ridden gamers and broaden their taste to a genre that is about patience and thinking.

You need to drop your own stereotype thinking, wRPGs are doing fine in the west.

truly101 · Mar 19, 2009

In before "put Final Fantasy in the title"

Jack Random · Mar 19, 2009

_dementia said:
you forgot Oblivion, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, etc.

OP only seems to think JRPGs are RPGs....

Edit: didnt realize op acked that, sorry.

Western RPGs sell fine here, it's just a cultural thing, Japanese RPG gamers tend to like a linear story told though non-interactive scenes which they view, westerners tend to prefer customization and choice in their RPGs.

LegendofJoe · Mar 19, 2009

This is related to marketing I guess, but Jrpg developers need to design better character models. Or more specifically they need to design characters that appeal less to a Japanese audience and more to other cultural tastes.

lucablight · Mar 19, 2009

Alot of american gamers I've seen on various forums seem to have some sort of irrational hatred of RPGs simply because they're japanese or have anime like artwork.

HylianTom · Mar 19, 2009

Yes Boss! said:
Yep,

_dementia hit is spot on. RPGs are seemingly more popular than ever right now. Just gotta include Western-developed RPGs. I know I've bought far far more this generation than previous generations.

Beat me to it.

For me at least, many jRPGs are too "on rails." You go from one town to the next, in a particular order, following the very strict storyline, etc etc.
Meanwhile, wRPGs often just set you loose in a world, free to explore, with a broad and non-rushed overall storyline.

I have a feeling that, in the past decade or so, many North American gamers had a taste of that sweet, sweet wRPG nectar and haven't felt a need/want to go back to jRPGs. At least not with previous frequency.

Dabanton · Mar 19, 2009

_dementia said:
you forgot Oblivion, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, etc.

Yep

The problem is JPRG's are just not appealing anymore to a large swath of people i don't mind either to be honest but gamers tastes change.

Stoney Mason · Mar 19, 2009

The reality is that while I love them, Japanese basic rpg's will remain a niche genre in this country. Only Square has the budget and the brand identity to create these lavish production epics that casual consumers will buy. The American's rpg's that succeed in this country on consoles tend to be hybrid affairs. Part shooter part rpg. Part action game part rpg.

Therefore the likely reality is that if you want big sales for an rpg this is the sort of hybrid you need to create.

RickA238 · Mar 19, 2009

This is a bad idea in general; broader appeal for RPG's for the most part means dumbing down the gameplay, adding mainstream mechanics (more FPS crap), and alienating the existing dedicated fanbase of the genre.

RPG's (in video game form) have survived for 20+ years, there's no threat of them disappearing. The super big budget RPG's have been scaled back the last few years or so, but I'm certainly not in the camp of gamers who misses that type of game much. I would take Etrian Odyssey and SMT: Nocturne over Final Fantasy XII and Legend of the Dragoon any day of the week.

The genre will never disappear, because if it did, there would always be a publisher to realize the empty genre and the starved fanbase attached to it, and would subsequently restart production of RPG's to monopolize the market.

Yes Boss! · Mar 19, 2009

HylianTom said:
Beat me to it.

For me at least, many jRPGs are too "on rails." You go from one town to the next, in a particular order, following the very strict storyline, etc etc.
Meanwhile, wRPGs often just set you loose in a world, free to explore, with a broad and non-rushed overall storyline.

I have a feeling that, in the past decade or so, many North American gamers had a taste of that sweet, sweet wRPG nectar and haven't felt a need/want to go back to jRPGs. At least not with previous frequency.

Yeah, and for this reason I've a sinking feeling that FF XIII might not pull in as big as numbers in NA as folks are anticipating. Just becoming less relevant.

Jedeye Sniv · Mar 19, 2009

Short answer - more guns.

Long answer - as mentioned upthread, wRPGs seem to be doing pretty well, and that's becuase they (generally) have a much more action/adventure-focus with a de-emphasis on stats and random battles. Personally, as an RPG fan, JRPGs often seem impenetrable and have settings/stories that i don't really care for, so I don't buy 'em. Games like Fallout and ME stroke my RPG boner just fine, I don't need no big-haired kids, right or wrong as my prejudices may be.

Seriously though, my dream RPG would be a game with the action of a Halo or Cod but the character development, interactions and story of a great RPG. But this seems to be at odds with the JRPG design school, as fair as I can tell.

Jack Random · Mar 19, 2009

Also, thread title should be changed to reflect the OP's distinction that he means JRPGS

Hobbun · Mar 19, 2009

Stoney Mason said:
The reality is that while I love them, Japanese basic rpg's will remain a niche genre in this country. Only Square has the budget and the brand identity to create these lavish production epics that casual consumers will buy. The American's rpg's that succeed in this country on consoles tend to be hybrid affairs. Part shooter part rpg. Part action game part rpg.

Therefore the likely reality is that if you want big sales for an rpg this is the sort of hybrid you need to create.

Yes, that was what I was afraid of.

bigdaddygamebot · Mar 19, 2009

Hobbun said:
Yes, Oblivion, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, etc. are RPGs, but I meant JRPGs. I'm sorry, I should have clarified.

But is that they only way to increase the sales? Make it more a shooter/first person RPG?

How about a story that isn't completely fuckin' ridiculous? Because nearly all of them are...and I buy JRPGs.

Bettenhausen was right when he said that Japanese devs are waiting for the next Final Fantasy to learn how to innovate and entertain.

Yes Boss! · Mar 19, 2009

Also, for me JRPGs now exist almost exclusively on the handhelds. Not a month goes buy that I don't get a new one for either the DS or PSP...quite often two or three.

Hobbun · Mar 19, 2009

Jack Random said:
Also, thread title should be changed to reflect the OP's distinction that he means JRPGS

Yes, I know. I made the change in the title in my actual post, but unfortunately I don't have control on the actual title that shows on the board.

Jedeye Sniv · Mar 19, 2009

RickA238 said:
This is a bad idea in general; broader appeal for RPG's for the most part means dumbing down the gameplay, adding mainstream mechanics (more FPS crap), and alienating the existing dedicated fanbase of the genre.

RPG's (in video game form) have survived for 20+ years, there's no threat of them disappearing. The super big budget RPG's have been scaled back the last few years or so, but I'm certainly not in the camp of gamers who misses that type of game much. I would take Etrian Odyssey and SMT: Nocturne over Final Fantasy XII and Legend of the Dragoon any day of the week.

The genre will never disappear, because if it did, there would always be a publisher to realize the empty genre and the starved fanbase attached to it, and would subsequently restart production of RPG's to monopolize the market.

Fuck the dedicated fanbase though, seriously. Dedicated fanbases just want the same thing over and over. They'll never grow in number, only diminish. The key to expanding a genre is to expand the fanbase. The dedicated old-skool can bitch and moan all they want but they still have their hardcore games, what we need are more big-budget, inclusive games that can hook players and funnel them in to the more hardcore experiences.

bengraven · Mar 19, 2009

1. More wrpgs.

2. More wrpgs.

3. More wrpgs.

4. More wrpgs.

5. More wrpgs.

Rad Agast · Mar 19, 2009

Not in NA but I think that most J-RPG fans are sticking with the portables this gen. Another reason why they sell in low numbers relative to other generes on home consoles is the fact that every one is being so picky these days (art sucks, music sucks, voice acting sucks, old mechanics suck, etc...).

Besides, most J-RPG releases don't recieve a big marketing budget in comparison to other generes. (I might be wrong on this one since I'm not living in NA but that's my perception of the situation from reading these boards and listening to podcasts)

Speaking of podcasts, It's getting more and more irritating to listen to J-RPG reviews/previews since most podcasters seem to not care about the genre in general and end up giving a strange/wrong/premature view of the games they're talking about.

Minsc · Mar 19, 2009

Set them in a franchise people like. I'm pretty sure Blizzard's Diablo 3 will crack 1M in NA, just like most Blizzard games before it. As mentioned above, Mass Effect, Oblivion, and Fallout 3 have also done very well.

Valkyria Chronicles is a niche title, with little appeal for the masses. Another part of the problem of turn-based rpgs like VC is most people will be turned off by the pace of them.

What were NA sales of FF:T & Front Mission btw? Probably not too spectacular but I wonder if any sRPGs were more popular than it? Dragon Quest 1 on the NES had to do pretty well I'd think, considering they gave it away for free with a subscription to Nintendo Power.

There's always Fire Emblem & PC TBS games if you're hungry for more tactics in your gameplay.

LegendofJoe · Mar 19, 2009

Jedeye Sniv said:
Seriously though, my dream RPG would be a game with the action of a Halo or Cod but the character development, interactions and story of a great RPG.

My dream RPG is along the same lines. An action/RPG hybrid with the visceral battles of Ninja Gaiden coupled with exploration and an interesting, involving plot. I can't even begin to imagine how hard it would be to design a game like this, but I would flip if someone ever pulled it off.

shuri · Mar 19, 2009

the gameplay is simply obselete

Johann · Mar 19, 2009

We have to accept that the era of the RPG is over. Just was the case with the rise and fall of the platformer.

People today have have different tastes and expectations of their games. It doesn't mean that people are stupid or lazy. They have different values and it's the developers job to have these game fulfill those values if they want to stay in business.

Developers have to adapt their games to the changing market. An RPG can have better sales if it incorporates these values, such as the FPS/TPS elements in Mass Effect and Fallout 3.

Otherwise, they can make RPGs for something like the DS. The DS has a very healthy environment for RPGs since its userbase is incredibly large and the game doesn't have to sell extraordinary well to make a profit since the development costs are very low. Similarly, the platformer genre only has a few top-selling entries on the home consoles but there exists a healthy eco-system for them on the DS and PSP.

Stoney Mason · Mar 19, 2009

Yes Boss! said:
Also, for me JRPGs now exist almost exclusively on the handhelds. Not a month goes buy that I don't get a new one for either the DS or PSP...quite often two or three.

That's because the crazy production values of Final Fantasy games chased off a lot of the competition. Along with the fact that handhelds are dominant in that market and there is still a very large base of Japanese people who want traditional rpgs.

Hobbun · Mar 19, 2009

RickA238 said:
This is a bad idea in general; broader appeal for RPG's for the most part means dumbing down the gameplay, adding mainstream mechanics (more FPS crap), and alienating the existing dedicated fanbase of the genre.

RPG's (in video game form) have survived for 20+ years, there's no threat of them disappearing. The super big budget RPG's have been scaled back the last few years or so, but I'm certainly not in the camp of gamers who misses that type of game much. I would take Etrian Odyssey and SMT: Nocturne over Final Fantasy XII and Legend of the Dragoon any day of the week.

The genre will never disappear, because if it did, there would always be a publisher to realize the empty genre and the starved fanbase attached to it, and would subsequently restart production of RPG's to monopolize the market.

I actually agree 100% with what I bolded. That is why I clarified in not changing the gameplay that makes them a JRPG.

You are probably right, they will never go away completely, but you might not get that sequel to a game because the first one didn't sell as well (I.E. if they make a VC 2, or never getting Seiken Denetsu 3).

It would just be nice to see that a game is selling well and know that that JRPG that you love, it's sequel will make it over to NA.

RickA238 · Mar 19, 2009

Jedeye Sniv said:
Fuck the dedicated fanbase though, seriously. Dedicated fanbases just want the same thing over and over. They'll never grow in number, only diminish. The key to expanding a genre is to expand the fanbase. The dedicated old-skool can bitch and moan all they want but they still have their hardcore games, what we need are more big-budget, inclusive games that can hook players and funnel them in to the more hardcore experiences.

What's the point in adding a group of fans who don't find the genre interesting in the first place--to pull in more sales? As long as the genre can exist in it's current form--a niche genre which satisfies a holdover group of fans--what is the point in expanding the appeal, and thus changing the genre? What you're asking for is a change to the genre; it's like asking Ford to make a pick-up truck without a bed. It defeats the purpose of it's existence.

Winterblink · Mar 19, 2009

Was a huge fan of JRPGs for many years, but I just got bored shitless playing the exact same plot over and over again.

Yes Boss! · Mar 19, 2009

Hobbun said:
You are probably right, they will never go away completely, but you might not get that sequel to a game because the first one didn't sell as well (I.E. if they make a VC 2, or never getting Seiken Denetsu 3).

Actually, if VC 2 were ever to be made (and I'm sure it will reappear eventually, perhaps on a handheld) it would be predicated on anticipated sales in the West.

Mockingbird · Mar 19, 2009

How about start making good JRPGs again? There are some exceptional titles this gen, like Valkyria Chronicles, but the majority of titles have been more of the same.

Prine · Mar 19, 2009

The RPGs that i love perform really well. Fable, Mass Effect, Oblivion, KOTOR. NA buy RPGs that matter to me so im not worried.

bigdaddygamebot · Mar 19, 2009

Minsc said:
Valkyria Chronicles is a niche title, with little appeal for the masses.

Take away the childish way that many of the characters act.

Take away the pig with wings that communicates with squad members through oinks and grunts.

Make the game gritty, more serious with characters that more people would actually WANT to play.

I'm willing to bet that Jagged Alliance 2 and possibly even Jagged Alliance 1 sold more copies than Valkyria Chronicles. VC could have been a big deal but Sega gave us a silly cow that wants to bake bread between fights and a tank commander that likes picking flowers and talking to groundhogs.

All they had to do was make it less "token Japanesey".

1-D_FTW · Mar 19, 2009

Jedeye Sniv said:
Fuck the dedicated fanbase though, seriously. Dedicated fanbases just want the same thing over and over. They'll never grow in number, only diminish. The key to expanding a genre is to expand the fanbase. The dedicated old-skool can bitch and moan all they want but they still have their hardcore games, what we need are more big-budget, inclusive games that can hook players and funnel them in to the more hardcore experiences.

Agreed. I've quit playing (gave Valkyrie Chronicles a try because of how much a loved SoA... the last JRPG I actually loved/liked.) The genre is a cliched, grind-fest, with convoluted stories that go on and on (and rarely even make any sense.)

One poster mentioned US gamers have some sort of irrational hatred because of the anime art style. I think he's completely off target with many of those gamers. They dislike them because they've become interactive animes. The story seems to be the reason for their existence and the gameplay exists to move the plot line. As a result, gameplay just isn't very good. So it's not the anime artstyle that's off putting, it's the anime storytelling at the heart of the game that is. You could give it any style of art and it wouldn't change the core problem.

sh4mike · Mar 19, 2009

It's ignorant of the jRPG community to push the blame for sales decline on "gamers with poor taste who need to be educated on jRPG glory." The fact is most gamers have played jRPGs historically but now prefer other genres. wRPG sales have taken much of the jRPG market, even in Japan.

I've played over a hundred games with Fight/Magic/Item/Run commands. I see these as "football coach sims" versus the wRPG "Madden" experience. As sales trends indicate, for most gamers, it's more fun to actually play the game rather than issue commands to a team.

Zzoram · Mar 19, 2009

I loved Baldur's Gate 2, but I don't think I can handle it's mechanics anymore. Maybe in a modernized form, but having to sleep every time to re-memorize a spell is something I never want to have to do in a game again.

KOTOR and The Witcher combine the oldschool AD&D style of RPG with a faster paced, more action oriented combat system, and that works for me. I find myself prefering control of only 1-3 characters in RPGs, because managing too many becomes tiresome very quickly.

Mass Effect in my opinion is the future of cRPGs. In many ways it retains aspects of it's cRPG roots, but combines them with stunningly cinematic conversation and fast paced action, but lets you continue to manage skill points, equipment, and pause to queue up commands for your party.

Stoney Mason · Mar 19, 2009

bigdaddygamebot said:
Take away the childish way that many of the characters act.

Take away the pig with wings that communicates with squad members through oinks and grunts.

Make the game gritty, more serious with characters that more people would actually WANT to play.

I'm willing to bet that Jagged Alliance 2 and possibly even Jagged Alliance 1 sold more copies than Valkyria Chronicles. VC could have been a big deal but Sega gave us a silly cow that wants to bake bread between fights and a tank commander that likes picking flowers and talking to groundhogs.

All they had to do was make it less "token Japanesey".

In the end it wouldn't have made a difference.

I'm mixed on this idea myself. I get that to make a broad based game you need to take into account a large base of people and make a game for differing sensibilities. I also respect however that different cultures have different ways of expressing themselves and homogenizing everything is a bit boring.

Rad Agast · Mar 19, 2009

shuri said:
the gameplay is simply obselete

I don't know about that. There is some charm in old classic game mechanics (look at shmups, platformers and beat'em-ups on XBLA/PSN/VC). Personally, my main problem with J-RPGs is that I don't have enough time to play them now a days. They need a save any time feature (If a game doesn't have this then it stays in the backlog till I have the time to play it properly).

Zzoram · Mar 19, 2009

sh4mike said:
It's ignorant of the jRPG community to push the blame for sales decline on "gamers with poor taste who need to be educated on jRPG glory." The fact is most gamers have played jRPGs historically but now prefer other genres. wRPG sales have taken much of the jRPG market, even in Japan.

I've played over a hundred games with Fight/Magic/Item/Run commands. I see these as "football coach sims" versus the wRPG "Madden" experience. As sales trends indicate, for most gamers, it's more fun to actually play the game rather than issue commands to a team.

I think the number one problem of JRPGs is the pace of the game. There are usually a huge excess of slow paced fights, combined with the need to grind before advancing in the game, which turns people off.

The same people who grew up with JRPGs don't have as much time to play games anymore, and they don't want to feel like they're "working" when they're trying to relax and have fun. I think someone at Square-Enix must at least suspect this, given that Final Fantasy XIII looks to be really fast paced, even though it retains a menu based system.

Basically, we don't need 60 hour grindfests, what we want is a highly refined 20-40 hour adventure without a ludicrous story that makes us embarassed to play around non-gamers/otaku.

bigdaddygamebot · Mar 19, 2009

Stoney Mason said:
In the end it wouldn't have made a difference.

I'm mixed on this idea myself. I get that to make a broad based game you need to take into account a large base of people and make a game for differing sensibilities. I also respect however that different cultures have different ways of expressing themselves and homogenizing everything is a bit boring.

You put a group of well thought out characters and some female eye-candy in the squad instead of what you got in the game.

It would have sold.

VC is SO fuckin good. The combat and the strategies that go into it are really, really good. The graphics are exceptional.

But the story/writing...fuck.

Ploid 3.0 · Mar 19, 2009

I have seen the light, I want more exploration and adventure in my RPGs now. Fallout 4 please. No random battles, no menu fighting, and no too young to drink roadblocks. However I like the direction FF12 was heading. It seems like White Knight is the same, although I'm having second thoughts about WKS. The online seems bland.

Barrett2 · Mar 19, 2009

WRPGs are selling very well, and JRPGS sell decently well given how absurd the art, stories & play mechanics are in many of them.

One glaring example; they need to move beyond the turn-based formula. It works perfectly fine on something like DQ5, but there is a huge disconnect playing Lost Odyssey on an HDTV with great visuals and impressive action, then being asked to simply hit the "win" button over and over again, and hoping you make it to a save location sometime in the next 90 minutes.... so much antiquated nonsense.

Stoney Mason · Mar 19, 2009

Rad Agast said:
Personally, my main problem with J-RPGs is that I don't have enough time to play them now a days. They need a save any time feature (If a game doesn't have this then it stays in the backlog till I have the time to play it properly).

I think that signals a sort of larger issue. That the genre has remained stagnant for so long that issues like these are still a problem in a lot of games which chases off a lot of gamers. I don't see many openings for new gamers to jump in on Japanese rpg's. Every genre needs the next generation to come along and keep playing them to remain active.

zoukka · Mar 19, 2009

JRPG deveopers really should start to cater to grown-ups. Most of the JRPG themes/stories and dialogue are written for pre-teens.

Dr. Acid Avatar · Mar 19, 2009

I agree with mostly everyone in here, the stories in jrpg's need to mature or grow into something other than the tired cliche's a lot of them are stuck in. I'm tired of playing spiky haired 15-19 year olds out to save the world. That was fine fifteen years ago when I was in school, but how about something darker or more mature that is built for adults?

OnPoint · Mar 19, 2009

For myself, personally, it's a flooded market. When I had only an N64 I wanted to play all kinds of RPGs I didn't have access to. I bought and played a lot of them, but then I bought a whole bunch more I still haven't played to this day, up and through the PS2. Now, I don't really buy them at all. I'd like to play the ones I already have.

I'm not suggesting this is a widespread issue, but it certainly is why I don't play nearly as many RPGs as I used to. It's a shame, as I'd like to support Valkyrie Chronicles, but I'm especially burnt out on strategy RPGs, still after completing Tactcs Ogre on the GBA 2 years ago. It scarred me.

Support NeoGAF

What needs to be done to increase sales of Japanese RPGs in NA?

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

I got grudge sucked!

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Gold Member

Member

Banned

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads