Disclaimer: I haven't bought an Xbox 360 game in the last 2 years, so the rules might have changed, but I believed I would not have missed that news.
In related news, my 360 is dieing
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Nintendo Network ID deleted, games on all systems wiped out
- Thread starter mattiewheels
- Start date
- Status
Disclaimer: I haven't bought an Xbox 360 game in the last 2 years, so the rules might have changed, but I believed I would not have missed that news.
In related news, my 360 is dieing
ab.aeterno
Member
Alright, so tell me how to delete a Steam account. I'll wait.
So you openly admit that you don't read warnings because it inconveniences you?
And I dunno about you, but when I'm presented with a large wall of text that I have to scroll through to read in full, I know that it's there because someone doesn't want to be sued over something I may find disagreeable about what I'm about to do and maybe - JUST MAYBE - I should take the time to read it, or wait until I can take the time to do so before I dismiss it and continue. Especially when I'm doing something that I can't likely take back later, which any of the options the system offers would have been.
Ahh well, different strokes. I guess that relying on common sense is just my lack of post-secondary education showing.
ab.aeterno
Member
Still waiting to hear how one can delete a Steam account just like a NIND.
How many other modern accounts with digital purchase histories can be deleted forever, from a process on the device?
He's openly admitting he's human and fallible. Good software design takes this into account by making irreversible actions very difficult to do, or obfuscating them entirely from direct user interaction.
How many other modern accounts with digital purchase histories can be deleted forever, from a process on the device?
So you read all EULAs, licensing agreements, health and safety warnings and instruction manuals for all your games, devices, products and websites you use?
Instead of trying to dismiss the poster with a pithy reply, you should maybe address his points and acknowledge that -- unsurprisingly -- there is absolutely fair criticism Nintendo here. I am so fucking sick of people dismissing valid criticism because of their love of particular companies and products.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
You seem to be willfully ignoring what I wrote.
My point, to repeat myself, is that Nintendo has it within its power to create an infrastructure that makes it much more difficult for its users to make lazy mistakes with enormous consequences.
A computer manufacturer could place an Immediate Wipe and Reformat button on the back of its computer cases, which if pressed would immediately (and irrevocably) wipe and reformat the system's hard-drive. And they could surround the button with little stickers that say "Do Not Press Without First Reading Accompanying Guide!" And they could provide the accompanying guide which explains, in detail, when it is a good idea to press the button. And then if some lazy, or dumb, or drunk, or exhausted, or illiterate, or silly person pressed the button and destroyed their data, perhaps people in this thread wag would their finger at the person and say "You were warned!!!"
This is a fictional example. Do you know why? Because it would be absurd for a computer manufacturer to design that sort of case and then sell it to the public. Is Nintendo's design mistake this serious? No. But it is a difference in degree, rather than a difference in kind.
There is simply no reason for Nintendo to build an interface that allows its users to so quickly and easily and permanently dissociated content from their accounts or to delete their accounts (and content) entirely. It's unnecessary. It's poor design.
To be perfectly honest... there should not be an easy way to remove your account entirely... with no way to restore it. No other service has this issue. Most (if not all?) services have the ability to be restored... Nintendo needs to step up. Their online/accounts have been horrible or non-existant, and there is no excuse at this point for them not to be making simple improvements.
Interceptor
Banned
You can´t. And that would be an outrage 10 years ago. It´s litteraly a greyzone in many europan countries. Everyone should be able to delete digital traces. Options are not bad you know. I used this example to demonstrate how an account works. If you could delete a steam account - of course all games would be gone. They never were yours to begin with.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think companies should absolutely allow the option to completely delete a digital footprint. If Steam doesn't allow that at all, I would agree that that's problematic. And I'll note that I'm honestly, genuinely not interested in attacking this from a perspective of "LOL, Nintendo doesn't know how to do the internet good." However -- while I think it's fine that the option exists in some form and will agree that adequate warning is presented to those paying attention to the prompts -- I do think that better failsafes should be in place to save people from themselves. "I want no trace of having ever existed on this network" is not a typical use case. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be supported, but I do think the software engineers should proceed with extreme caution before presenting it as an option to end users. As I noted in my first reply to the topic, I think at a bare minimum I would encourage a grace period wherein the account is simply inactive and marked for later deletion before actually making such an irreversible change.
ab.aeterno
Member
You cannot delete a Steam account. My guess would be both to leave the door open for consumers to return, and to make sure they're covered legally for eventualities.
It read as though you were arguing you can do the same thing with Steam, not that you using it an example. Since you can't, it's a poor example for this reason. Amazon would be a better one, since you can close an account, and does have digital ownership. (But you can't delete it from a website in a few clicks.)
Indeed, most accounts can only be deactivated by users, so that they can come back later. Deleting an account almost always requires contacting customer service to verify you're the account holder and understand the ramifications.
now this i agree with
Stealth_Cobra
Member
I think what's really shocking about the topic is not the fact an user can delete the data on the WIIU, but the fact the process of deleting WIIU data can have the date stored on separate consoles wiped in the process.
It's one thing to allow a full destruction of everything tied to one console, but forcing people to read the small print and figure out it will also destroy pretty much everything on other devices you own... That's a whole other situation.
I don't expect my PS3 and PSP to be wiped clean if I restore my PS4 to Factory Settings. Likewise, I don't expect my Steam account to be emptied because I format an old laptop before selling it. Treat each console as a separate purchase, and don't allow people to erase 3DS games from your account when wiping a WIIU...
I understand the need for a global account wide "game collection". PSN has it too, you can browse your title history and see PSP, PS3, PS4, Vita games in the same page... But the system is intelligent enough not to allow you to delete games you purchased, and each individual system is offers it's own version of a full system wipe, never touching the account side of things.
It's one thing to allow a full destruction of everything tied to one console, but forcing people to read the small print and figure out it will also destroy pretty much everything on other devices you own... That's a whole other situation.
I don't expect my PS3 and PSP to be wiped clean if I restore my PS4 to Factory Settings. Likewise, I don't expect my Steam account to be emptied because I format an old laptop before selling it. Treat each console as a separate purchase, and don't allow people to erase 3DS games from your account when wiping a WIIU...
I understand the need for a global account wide "game collection". PSN has it too, you can browse your title history and see PSP, PS3, PS4, Vita games in the same page... But the system is intelligent enough not to allow you to delete games you purchased, and each individual system is offers it's own version of a full system wipe, never touching the account side of things.
Any update OP?
So you think some warning screens and having to input a security pin is not difficult enough,
and does not raise an alarm.
That is a rather broad statement,
but please don't make it look like people arguing against the "Nintendo is to blame" narative (just) do it, because they love Nintendo.
You said it yourself, your fictional example is different from what Nintendo does.
By the way: formating a harddisk had and still has less warnings on DOS and Windows.
So you think some warning screens and having to input a security pin is not difficult enough,
and does not raise an alarm.
That is a rather broad statement,
but please don't make it look like people arguing against the "Nintendo is to blame" narative (just) do it, because they love Nintendo.
You said it yourself, your fictional example is different from what Nintendo does.
By the way: formating a harddisk had and still has less warnings on DOS and Windows.
Ehhhhhh.........do you have a Wii U? Because if you format the Wii U, your purchase history will be untouched. The OP didn't format it, he didn't wipe the Wii U, he chose to delete the NNID.
It has nothing to do with a system being "intelligent". It's what the OS allows you to do.
And do you even know what small/fine print means? There was nothing ambiguous about the warnings during the process of deleting a NNID.
ab.aeterno
Member
Absolutely and unequivocally no. There's a reason almost no other account systems work this way.
Especially in Nintendo's case, where there is further complication in the concept of a user being a distinct but linked entity from the main account. Most other account services have only one thing to worry about, not two, and they still don't allow easy delete function. This problem is worse because there is a user that is ok to delete but an ID that is not, and the relationship between them may not clear people. This isn't how most modern account systems work, so you can't blame users for coming with preconceived notions of how it would work. Accommodating that is literally user interface design 101.
Well, many people absolving Nintendo of poor design decisions in this thread are people who are frequently and loudly dismissive of other criticisms of Nintendo about their account system, game systems, practices, whatever. It contributes nothing to the discussion at best, and serves to stifle constructive criticism worst.
I ask that people be honest and open to discussion and not just dismiss criticism because they like something. I like my PS4, but I'm happy to say I think the long horizontal bar of apps is bad design, there's a ton of work to be done improving it's interface.
That's my point.
You shouldn't have to contact customer service to do anything, really, but in Nintendo's case you do. And it's bullshit that they lock away the ability to unlink NNIDs and reapply them behind customer service, but allow you to completely delete your NNID from the console. It's just backwards. Replacing consoles is far FAR more common than deleting a network ID, especially when you think about upgrades and newer iterations of various consoles/handhelds.
Deleting your NNID completely is something that you essentially never want to do.
Point is when deleting stuff off your console, reformat or anything like that one of the blaring default options shouldnt be "Would you like to completely delete your account and everything associated with it?" That's something that should always be a more obscure option, hell strictly from a business perspective. This isn't someone jogging through multiple screens and accidently buying something.
Whatever, pages of defense force incoming. Their accounting system is still not up to snuff and my 3DS is the only console i'm scared of losing all my digital purchases on, and have already once.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Yeah, I spent a couple of minutes in a very pleasant and no-questions-asked call with NOA, and he sent the order to a higher-up who called the next day to tell me to just create a new ID and he would transfer all the games I purchased to it. So I ran into nothing resembling the horror stories (and they even credited what I spent on Earthbound back to me, even though I was only trying to get my 3DS purchases back). So they rescued my dumb ass, basically.
Again, here's the mindset I had going into the process that I willingly pushed right through: no I don't mind losing all purchases on this Wii U or its account, since I'm selling. So the extra steps of security just felt like I was doing something big but I thought it was what I wanted. The one line that doesn't even use the word 3DS, but does warn that 'all systems' would be affected either flew over my head or I really assumed they meant all Wii U systems, because let's face it...having different platforms interconnected like that is something new to wrap your head around if you're used to the way Nintendo online stuff works. I'm still not claiming that I wasn't wrong, it just felt like a matter of my own preconceptions getting the best of me.
Yeah, I do. Because I like making informed choices instead of complaining about something I did or agreed to after I've already made the mistake when the knowledge is of zero use to me.
Granted, I've stopped reading the health and safety warnings, it's more of a skim now to see if anything changes in them because "don't put this in your mouth or use an electronic device when wet" is pretty much a given now and don't need to be reminded.
But yeah, basically, I RTFM.
ab.aeterno
Member
Ok, great.
The problem is, you're in a vast minority. And good design takes that into account.
And that's the issue that's not being discussed, in favor of railroading the OP for their folly. See: the fact that you didn't address anything else I said except for this single question. No matter your feelings on whether or not the OP should have done a better job reading through the messages, there's still a number of problems outlined in this thread that are getting dismissed.
As of late last year, this is now a legal requirement in the EU. Part of the data privacy laws include " The right to erasure".
The law is explained better here.
thesolidshark
Member
To me, the bolded is the saddest thing to read in the whole thread (would've been OP's situation, but I'm glad to hear that was mostly resolved). As someone who also tries to read contractual agreements in full, it's sad to compare the usual contract to those shorter, clearer warning messages for modifying/deleting your NNID account. Yes, I understand people blow through them constantly, but they have to know there's a risk when doing so. But like me and maybe OP, it probably takes something like this to pay more attention to what we're dealing with
Nintendo having a different or even opposite setup to everyone else is not necessarily backwards to me; it's just different. At first, I wasn't sure why the option for deleting an entire network account would be there either, but the desire to want to get rid of digital footprints does make sense. More warnings or putting NNID deletion behind a customer service call for idiot-proofing does sound better, but having a safety net through some means and having back-up options keeps it from being bad to me. Hopefully they will please the people who've asked for accounts being more independent of hardware whenever they implement it.
What are some other problems that are getting dismissed?
I'm the vast minority?
... can you hear that? It's the sound of lawyers around the world rubbing their hands together in collective glee at the thought.
As for the rest that I "didn't address", the fact is that the only defense for its exclusion is people not reading, which I had addressed previously. It's not "easy" as people have suggested unless you aren't reading multiple repeated warnings (I mean, ignoring it once is bad enough, but MULTIPLE TIMES? AND a password request?), nor can your children or some malicious prick do it if you're using parental controls and password locks like every person in the 21st century should be on everything they own.
Literally the only defense for its exclusion that I've seen so far is that people aren't paying attention and they need to be treated like children who can't be trusted, or roundabout methods of coming to the same conclusion.
And ignorance as an defense doesn't work for some people, especially when being used to lambast another entity for it. If it works for you, more power to you, I guess, but to suggest that such criticism and the reasoning used to justify it shouldn't be challenged when it all basically hinges on personal accountability is a fool's errand.
The feature is there. If you or anyone else don't want to use it, pay more attention when the word "delete" pops up in multiple warning prompts. Saying it shouldn't be allowed to be there at all and shaming a corporation for the inclusion of an option seems.... just weird, no matter what that user option entails.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
I'm glad you got it sorted OP.
Starwolf_UK
Member
I was wondering what the $8 was.
Probably, but it'll take someone bringing a suite against them (German Consumer groups most likely) before they notice, or rather, bother addressing the problem in some way. I would suspect.
The same thing happened to me. I called Nintendo and they couldn't restore my 3ds games after deleting the nnid from my Wii U prior to sale.
Zeyphersan
Banned
Deleting it from you Wii U, or deleting the NNID outright?
The NNID. I wanted the Wii U I was selling to not be linked to my account. Didn't figure out my 3ds XL would delete all its digital games.
ab.aeterno
Member
...yes? It's not even debatable. I can only hope you're not seriously suggesting most people read all EULAs, privacy policies, etc etc because even from a time perspective, it's estimated doing so would take a month to do. It's how thousands of people agreed to give their immortal souls away. It's a well known fact: users don't read that shit.
Drop the scare quotes.
You haven't addressed the fact that almost all other account services tied to digital purchases cannot be deleted, the least of which allow initiating that from the device they're currently on. There's a reason for this, and you're actively ignoring it for a strawman.
Speaking of that strawman, let's go ahead and clear something up: this isn't about the choice being offered, it's about the ease of accomplishing that irreversible task, confusion over users and accounts and their relationship, the ignoring of prior user knowledge and expectations, and the lack of effectively communicating how doing it on one device affects another. So stop framing the discussion that way and address what I'm writing.
So let's go ahead and continue explaining why this is bad so you can ignore it again later: the reason Amazon, for example, requires you to contact customer service to do this is because they design around the user's inevitable mistakes and fallibility. Good design tries to be as accommodating as possible about anticipating and preventing a user's likely mistakes. So putting the "delete account with purchases" button next to the "delete system user" button is exceptionally poor user interface design. Particularly when, as pointed out and not addressed, there's a user which you can delete and a NIND you shouldn't, and the NIND is just recently linked across devices. Almost no other account systems work like this either, so Nintendo once again ignores prior knowledge, which is UI Design 101.
Your entire defense of this poor design boils down to "well people shouldn't be so dumb!!!" Which, ironically, strengthens my point because good design anticipates poor decisions or misunderstanding and designs around it.
Using the word shaming pretty much tells me all I need to know about how this conversation will go, since now criticism of implementation has morphed into clucking tongues at poor Nintendo for just trying give us a choice.
Stop reframing my argument to something it's not and address it, or don't bother replying. If they want to offer the choice, more power to them, but their implementation is fucking terrible and if that's good enough for you because you can dismiss criticism of Nintendo out of hand and laugh this off as user ignorance, then this discussion is as pointless as EULAs.
Sure, different is not inherently bad, but you're throwing away all of the user's prior knowledge and expectations, so you damn well better make sure your design is clear and easy for the user to pick up and understand. Clearly, this is not the case.
Ever wonder why most phones have status bars at the top of the screen, or windows have the close button in the upper right, or doors use bars on the side that's pushed? It leverages unconscious learned behaviors and knowledge to make something easy to use. You don't have to think about it.
That's exactly the issue; not that the option exists, but that it's almost as easy as deleting something inconsequential. On one system, it's at least clearer about all systems getting wiped using better visual language; the other one, in contention, is not.
It should either be moved to the website or require customer service. Since the amount of people doing it intentionally will likely be very small, it would allow explanation and verbal confirmation, make it harder to accidentally do, and reduce their time didn't cleaning up mistakes made from the current implementation.
See above for people ignoring criticism or reframing it away from discussion, or read my posts to see what I believe the issues are. It's hard enough to write this all on mobile, let alone repeating myself.
thesolidshark
Member
If the user, which could be anyone, is in a rush or half-pays attention to what he's doing with NNID's or anything really, clear and easy to understand might not help them much.
I get what you're getting at with this, but does the number of times people check their phones, use computers, or use doors with bars really compare to the number of times Wii U/3DS owners work with their NNID info? eShop I'll understand, but I don't imagine a majority of gamers on any platform messing with their account info on a daily basis. Once they do for whatever reason, they should be thinking about it.
Inconsequential to me is the one warning I get when my PC asks me if I want to delete a file. 6 or more warnings with different writing per message is above that, not even almost once I ask myself "why the extra messages". Is there something else easy to mess up that warns you that many times?
You mentioned the Wii U having the same type of warning the 3DS has which I agree with again. The logos would make more people take notice.
I do hope the number of people who've done it intentionally have been bigger than the number who've done in unintentionally. If not, then I'd agree that it should be moved.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
I'd never buy anything digital from Nintendo while this policy is in place.
I have to call customer service to get my games back? Piss off.
That said, the only way Ill get another WiiU is if if the one I have breaks before bayonetta releases. If I've already completed it, I'll simply wait until the system is emulated on PC. Not going to waste my money twice.
I have to call customer service to get my games back? Piss off.
That said, the only way Ill get another WiiU is if if the one I have breaks before bayonetta releases. If I've already completed it, I'll simply wait until the system is emulated on PC. Not going to waste my money twice.
Just found this thread and i don't get why this is an issue.
Not only it's common sense that if you delete your account you lose the software linked to that account but it is actually noted in the user agreement. Actually, screw the user agreement, let's all agree that very few of us read it, but common sense is enough.
From what i gather someone deleted their NNID account instead of un-linking it from a console. I'm sorry but that is just the user's fault, as was the WiiU's bricking because some people removed them from the power outlet while they were updating firmware.
Nintendo online accounts are very outdated and have many issues, but this is not one of them, this all falls to the user, sorry.
Not only it's common sense that if you delete your account you lose the software linked to that account but it is actually noted in the user agreement. Actually, screw the user agreement, let's all agree that very few of us read it, but common sense is enough.
From what i gather someone deleted their NNID account instead of un-linking it from a console. I'm sorry but that is just the user's fault, as was the WiiU's bricking because some people removed them from the power outlet while they were updating firmware.
Nintendo online accounts are very outdated and have many issues, but this is not one of them, this all falls to the user, sorry.
Steve Youngblood
Member
One of the problems I have with discussions like this is the complete and utter lack of nuance. At least two people in this thread alone have committed this error. I believe both have owned up (at least partially) to being at fault for not having paid close enough attention. Further, Nintendo seems to be working with them to fix this issue. So, hopefully all's well that ends well. I agree to an extent that it this may not be the most appropriate time to lambaste Nintendo for sucking at internet account stuffs.
However, I don't find your post terribly constructive. Yes -- as with many things in life -- it would behoove people to be more responsible and take ownership of their actions. However, that still doesn't mean that this sort of implementation is the best idea. It's worth considering that offering this kind of an option in this kind of fashion without having an easy way to reverse the deletion might not be the best of ideas. Further, Nintendo doesn't benefit from also being the same company that makes people send in police reports to get content back when their systems are lost or stolen. You have to jump through those kinds of hoops to get content back, but I can delete my purchases for ever via this simple process?
Again, I want to stress that I don't think that this is a major, major problem. With a couple of tweaks, I don't think it's really even a problem at all. I've stated before that I do think customers should have the ability to erase completely digital footprints. However, I do think it makes for a frustrating conversation when nuance gets tossed out the window in favor of establishing that one party is completely in the wrong while the other is completely in the right. It's possible to simultaneously that customers should be just a little bit more careful while also believing that it might be prudent to reconsider the current implementation of NNID account deletion.
J'aime Fils-Aime
Neo Member
Common sense would be that Nintendo's service functions like almost every other one. Sure, PSN isn't exactly the same as Steam or XBL or iTunes, but they're similar enough that you don't have to read the user agreements and other fine print to use them properly.
When it comes to Nintendo, common sense is to assume that Nintendo does everything ass-backwards. Which is why I don't buy eShop stuff. It's just not worth the hassle. I'm sure Phoenix Wright will appear on iOS anyway.
flatearthpandas
Member
I'll assume you don't really believe a "burn it all down" button on a computer tower is in any way comparable with you navigating to a menu on purpose, choosing the wrong option, clicking through several explicit warning screens, and deleting your account.
Funny enough, I think there are fewer steps involved in reformatting a hard drive than there are in deleting an NNID.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
.
ab.aeterno
Member
That's a poor analogy because one is an account I have limited control over and the sole record holder of all digital purchases, while the other is a hardware component I have compete control over and can backup, restore, etc. at will. And it's not directly tied to my purchases; if I reformat my hard drive, I still have access to digital purchases suited it, depending source (Steam, Amazon, Origin, etc.)
But either way, there are more steps involved in getting back content than deleting your access that content forever, nevermind that there's no actual official policy or means with which to recover downloaded games myself, let alone without a police report and the luck of having a friendly customer service rep.
I mean holy shit, think about that: you can delete all your purchases forever, but cannot download them to a new system yourself.
That's why you move it, hide it, take the option off the device, whatever. Users should do that, but you must design around the assumption they won't and protect themselves from themselves. There's a reason it's not easy to delete a XBL, PSN, Amazon, iTunes, Google, etc. account.
You misunderstand what I meant. I'm saying that people have certain expectations based on prior experience with how account systems work. Most accounts cannot be easily deleted, so the assumption that the option presented isn't really deleting everything isn't unfounded. Even with warning prompts, users may be too used to the old way Nintendo did things at a console level to understand the ramifications. That's why I included examples of everyday interaction points dependant upon prior knowledge: to say that users have ideas about how accounts work, what they can and can't do with them, and Nintendo's different approach eschews that. And that, as demonstrated, causes problems.
As I said to the other poster, it's a poor analogy. Think instead of accounts or services and how easy or difficult it is to delete them. Check yourself with one's you use, if nothing else.
This is a silly comparison.
You can't just delete your NNID by pressing a button. It's rather press button, enter password, get informed that you should read the following screens, which you have to confirm, then decide between "delete user", "delete user + ID" or cancel, then you get around 4 or 5 more screens that tell you what exactly is going to happen.
I can actually format a windows partition WAY easier and that data is definitely gone for good unless the user backupped it (which most users don't do). Strangely noone complains about that. It takes around 2 to 3 button presses without any large warning screens. You get actually one popup, that says "WARNING: Formatting will erase all data on this volume. To format the volume, Click OK. To quit, click Cancel." and it says that for any partition, you won't get a special warning about the drive, that your documents are on, after you click on OK once the data will be gone.
And actually: notebook manufacturers actually do have such a feature. it's called a factory reset and a recovery partition. It's actually quite easy to do. Yes, it tells you that your documents will be gone, so it's actually the same as with NNID deletion.
It's actually not possible at all to delete a XBL and Google account. PSN is only possible through customer support and even then, it's not fully deleted. All your posts will stay where they are. Amazon account is a pain in the ass to delete as well. I consider all of this really bad. A customer should be able to delete his own account at will without having to jump through hoops.
If she clicked all sorts of things at random on the Wii U, she sure as hell would also be able to format her PC. It just didn't happen yet.
"Format drive" - well, no idea what format means nor what a drive is, but what the hell, just click it
"Start" - well, yeah I want to start
"WARNING: Formatting will erase all data on this volume. To format the volume, Click OK. To quit, click Cancel." - Warning? I have enough of all those warnings. Format? Yeah no idea what this is, but I clicked it earlier. Volume? But it said drive earlier. No idea what a volume is, doesn't sound harmful. So I have to choose between OK and Cancel. What the hell, I surely don't want to cancel now. /clicks OK - this damn Windows lost all my data!!!! Shitty Microsoft.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
Sigh.
Look, if you ask me, i think you are right, and if it was up to me then NNID accounts would be impossible to be deleted so there would be no way an account would be accidentally deleted while you wanted to do something else entirely, like unlinking it from the hardware. I said in my previous post that Nintendo's online infrastructure has issues, there is no doubt about it, but my post was about how many people would blame Nintendo for that particular issue while it is important to understand that all hardware from all 3 major players have the same chance to be unpleasant if they are misused.
In my opinion it is important to take responsibility for our own actions when mishandling our hardware especially when the company has warned us of what will happen if we take said action. It's not about Nintendo hardware, it's about everything.
My post was not about defending Nintendo, far from it. It was about blaming ourselves sometimes. We are prone to mistakes as much as any company is.
flatearthpandas
Member
Didn't include the rest. I did read your post a few days ago. I didn't remember that was you or bother to track it down today, so I did make an incorrect assumption. The account splitting is stupid, no doubt. Hope that works out for you.
I don't have contempt for you and I agree that the system could be better implemented, but the analogy was structurally poor. You're saying that pressing a button on a computer tower a single time is like navigating to a button in a menu and pressing it, entering a password, confirming that you wanted to press the button, confirming again that you wanted to press the button, confirming again that you wanted to press the button, etc., merely because you can ignore the warnings in both situations.
A better comparison would be if you had to press the button on the computer tower eight times in a row. An even better comparison would be if there were eight buttons, all of which were covered by warning stickers (that you could read or not read) that you had to remove in order to push them.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
You're still missing the point. The analogy is bringing out that user options which are both easily accessible and destructive are, all other things being equal, good to avoid when designing infrastructures and interfaces. Precisely how easy it is to make (or not make) the mistake -- who gives two fucks? It's just not important to the analogy.
I'm going to make an analogy to show how analogy works. (Dangerous.) Normally, when someone makes an analogy, they intentionally use a more extreme example to bring out the same (structural) point. For example, a friend might cheat on an exam, and then defend himself by saying "Hey, if no one finds out about it, then it wasn't wrong!" You might, then, make an analogy to bring out the contrary idea: that actions can be wrong even if they are eternally undiscovered. So, for example, you might say: "But suppose I stole a truck from the GM factory, fresh off the line, but somehow no one ever found out. Don't you think that would be wrong?" Of course, if your friend is obstinate or a fucking moron, he might say "Ugh! That's a much more serious thing. That's completely different!" But he'd be missing the point. Your point wasn't that stealing a car is no more morally serious than cheating on a test. Your point was that actions can be wrong even if they go eternally undiscovered.
Similarly, I used a more serious example in order to illustrate a simple point. My simple point (to repeat myself for what seems like the 15th time): when possible, it is wise to eliminate easily accessible options which can have destructive consequences, regardless of how many warnings one puts in place.
I'm now wasting my time explaining how analogies work which, for the record, is part of what I do for a living. Please just let me die.
Good point. I have to partly blame PCs (especially Windows) for such user behaviour. Users get actually trained by Windows to do it.
PCs nowadays show you popups every now and then, ask you idiotic things or tell users stuff that they don't want to know. Worst offender: Windows Vista.
Where you get non-sensical popups telling you "Windows needs your permission to continue"."SomeProgram.exe" "If you started this action, continue.". Buttons "Continue" and "Cancel".
And also idiotic stuff like for example:
"CLSID E9495B87-D950-4ab5-87A5-FF6D70BF3E90". "Allow" or "Deny"
Because of all this crap users are actually trained to click on "continue" or "allow". Most of the time they have no idea what it means and just want to make it work. At some point they will stop reading at all and just click on that button to "make it work".
And then it affects products, that don't get on your nerves all the time, but only in specific situations like the Wii U.
ab.aeterno
Member
The whole analogy regarding PCs is fucking stupid, for reasons I've already outlined. They're not similar enough to be compared because the context surrounding them is completely different.
And if you're going to argue it's easier to reformat a drive for a typical user but include all clicks it takes to get to that menu on the 3DS, then list them for PC:
1. Click Start
2. Click Control Panel
3. Click System and Security
4. Click Administrative Tools
5. Double-Click Computer Management
6. Click Disk Management
That's what it would take a normal user to get to that function. That's not easy to find or get to unless you're familiar with the interface, and -- surprise! -- it's to keep average users from easily finding and getting to it and fucking up their computers. Hell, I had to double check because I rarely use it and couldn't find it myself right away. It's not linked through Control Panel next to User Administrative Tools, it's not located under Settings, you have dig to get it. And that's what I and others are arguing for.
Yes, a customer should be able to have the choice of deleting their account. No, it shouldn't be easy. Do you know how much trouble it would cause if your average customer could? There's a reason it's not easy, I don't know how many times I can reiterate that. These companies have huge teams of usability experts and engineers to make using their service painless; that you can't easily delete your account is by design. As a programmer, I have to think about this shit all the time. Trust me, so are they, and they're making the right choice. Inconvenience is worth preventing accidents like this. If this was happening at the scale of Amazon, with the amount of money of digital products locked to accounts, it would be a PR disaster.
You're making that overly complicated.
Getting to disk management takes 3 clicks from desktop (6 to reach the format dialog); and you can just format from file explorer anyways (you get to the format dialog in 3 clicks from desktop).
It's not really hidden at all, quite the opposite.
ab.aeterno
Member
I wouldn't call it easy to get to for most users. Feel free to disagree, but your average user is probably not familiar enough to use the various shortcuts unless they learn them. And as I said, regardless, it's still a poor analogy. It would be more to the point to compare it to other accounts or services run by third parties, not a device you have full access and control of.
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