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redmetal86 · Oct 9, 2015

There was a good episode of Surviving Disaster where they survive a mall shooting by taking out some of the terrorists and making their way to the loading exit. I guess training could be done, but the results will vary, especially when you have more random strangers.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · Oct 9, 2015

DrSlek said:
"I believe you want that classroom full of children."

Yes.

This is the one.

Bornstellar · Oct 9, 2015

Brawly Likes to Brawl said:
The Oregon school allowed open carry. Gun owners were actually there during the incident but decided not to do anything because they didn't want to risk confusing first responders.

CC owners were on-campus, but not where the shooter was. They made the right choice to not attempt to find and engage. If one had been in the class however...

Re: the topic at hand, the most surprising thing to me was reading about the Oregon shooting and it being apparent that no one did anything physical to try and stop the shooter.

oneils · Oct 9, 2015

If we had strong Good Samaritan laws that allowed us to take action without fear of liability, maybe.
not just liability over hurting the assailant but other bystanders, potentially.

However, I'm not sure that law enforcement agencies are willing to admit that the populaces best shot at surviving a spree is to fight back. The thinking seems to be that we should teach people to gtfo somehow or obey instructions. We'd need a big shift there too.

PeakPointMatrix · Oct 9, 2015

You just don't know how you'll react till it's happening. Attacking a hijacker on a plane has more to do with the runoff outrage from 9/11 and preventing another attack of that scale from taking place. It feels like a 'defend my country' situation versus a lone deranged shooter attacking people for no reason.

ponpo · Oct 9, 2015

Maybe "train" was a poor choice of words, as the meaning here is more like perform an action to avoid an expected outcome based on what you believe will happen due to past events and not have the government run programs or classes to literally "train" people into sacrificing themselves in public.

Armaros · Oct 9, 2015

Bornstellar said:
CC owners were on-campus, but not where the shooter was. They made the right choice to not attempt to find and engage. If one had been in the class however...

Re: the topic at hand, the most surprising thing to me was reading about the Oregon shooting and it being apparent that no one did anything physical to try and stop the shooter.

Because maybe its obvious untrained civilians will have a hard time rushing a individual with a deadly weapon like a gun?

Even a CC user would have a hard time doing anything unless they had specific training.

People massively underestimated the amount of training needed to suppress your natural instinct to flee, along with being able to make rational decisions regarding the situation.

way more · Oct 9, 2015

Perhaps with mandatory indoctrination and a caste system. Oddly enough this would be less an affront to personal rights than trying to regulate guns to many people.

Parakeetman · Oct 9, 2015

ponpo said:
Maybe "train" was a poor choice of words, as the meaning here is more like perform an action to avoid an expected outcome based on what you believe will happen due to past events and not have the government run programs or classes to literally "train" people into sacrificing themselves in public.

If you ever seen the amount of trouble LE goes through to stop situations like this, can you just imagine the kind of shitshow that would happen if a bunch of unarmed randoms with little to no training let alone unit cohesion try it?

As mentioned before, the only thing you have to go on would be mob mentality, which does not work unless a mass amount of folks perform an action at the same / near same time. Which generally will not be the case in the common sense situation of fists vs. firearm = failure.

Even then that is under the assumption that others will actually follow through even if a few individuals did decide to take action. Or just hang back and watch hoping those who did take a stand actually stop the hostile individual(s).

Armaros said:
Because maybe its obvious untrained civilians will have a hard time rushing a individual with a deadly weapon like a gun?

Even a CC user would have a hard time doing anything unless they had specific training.

People massively underestimated the amount of training needed to suppress your natural instinct to flee, along with being able to make rational decisions regarding the situation.

Think it was the walmart shooting in Vegas? The incident that had a male and female working as a team, a CC user died due to not knowing that it was a pair and got taken out by the female partner who was posing as another customer pushing her wagon around.

sk3 · Oct 9, 2015

What a great question. It basically boils down to "How do we mitigate the bystander effect?".

I think you have to phrase the situation in terms of "How do we empower every citizen with the ability to avert a tragedy".

I don't think training in the answer. Training every citizen on fear and how to react to dire situations doesn't seem like a great thing to instill in your citizenship. "See something, say something" doesn't really work.

C4Lukins · Oct 9, 2015

You could try and make it uncool with ads like the truth ads. But I am not sure that would work. public advertising about the nightmares of prison could work. The problem is these ass holes tend to look to die. They are on suicide missions.

But yeah maybe advertising the conditions of super max prisons could be a small deterent. It would be like kill yourself, or live the rest of your life between four walls with zero human interaction outside of the guy who slides the bilogni sandwich under the door. A living hell.

Like really advertise the hell of life if we capture you.

And then to kill yourself. You have to literally bash your own head into a wall until you die. Because the only interactive object in your room is a mattress, and good luck killing yourself with that.

Chichikov · Oct 9, 2015

oneils said:
If we had strong Good Samaritan laws that allowed us to take action without fear of liability, maybe.
not just liability over hurting the assailant but other bystanders, potentially.

However, I'm not sure that law enforcement agencies are willing to admit that the populaces best shot at surviving a spree is to fight back. The thinking seems to be that we should teach people to gtfo somehow or obey instructions. We'd need a big shift there too.

I don't know if you ever been in a legit fight or flight situation, but I seriously doubt fear of liability will cross anyone mind when face with such threat, we tend to work on a much more basic level in such scenarios.

Also, I think in most cases GTFO and obeying instructions is exactly what people should do. Yes, armed or unarmed civilians can overcome an attacker, I just don't that an average person who never been shot at is likely to make the right call in such situation, again, even trained soldiers tend to fuck up terribly first time they are in a real firefight (which is why pretty much all armies mix inexperience soldiers with experienced veterans).

Hoya Destroyer · Oct 9, 2015

I already have a plan for this situation

1. Find a sharp object (knife, plastic shard etc)

2. Take off shoes to quieten footsteps.

3. Sneak up behind armed attacker.

4. Insert sharp object into the side of their neck and push it forward out the front.

5. Crisis averted (unless there are more terrorists/gunmen or the first guy saw you coming).

Seriously though, when I think about the huge number of people Brevik murdered on that island, I cant help but wonder how many opportunities people had to lower that count. I mean, he killed 69 people! Here in Australia, our own psycho (Martin Bryant) killed 35. Another 38 killed by the terrorist on the Tunisian beach and 32 killed by the crazy South Korean at Virginia Tech. Its a terrible and astounding thing, to realize how much damage one person can do with guns. I also wonder how many lives were saved, when those guys brought down that terrorist on that Euro train recently.

way more · Oct 9, 2015

Just send in Ben Carlson.

In a slow, plodding voice while he worms his way though a ventilation shaft: "Come out to the college, we'll get together, have a debate..."

In flat, un-inflected voice: Ho . . . Ho. Now I am the one with the machine gun

Monotonously: Yippie . . . hooray, Mr. Falcon.

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