Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
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Magic: the Gathering |OT8| Eldritch Moon - It's only a paper (and digital) moon
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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Channel is unrestricted! Or something.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Attendance was much lower than for SOI here, 91 compared to well over a hundred.
And the participation quickly fell off. Room was half empty after just a few rounds.
And the participation quickly fell off. Room was half empty after just a few rounds.
A Serious Man
Member
This set is looks like a C/C- to me. A handful of individual cards that are exciting and not much else. It doesn't help that two of the mechanics (Meld, Emerge) are found on only a few cards. We'll see how the draft format turns out.
SigmasonicX
Member
By the way, charlequin, when are we moving to Community?
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
The set felt more like a second set than OATH did to BFZ (regardless of what you thought of those sets) and overall I think it felt less fun than SOI. It's the first time I've had little to no fun at a prerelease tbh
Eldritch Moon is shit compared to SOI. The set basically is only there for utility, there's nothing constructed amazing outside Planeswalkers and Gisela.
I feel like if they don't get the small set right it'll always feel this way. Kaladesh will be great, but Aether Revolt terrible in comparison.
I feel like if they don't get the small set right it'll always feel this way. Kaladesh will be great, but Aether Revolt terrible in comparison.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Not going all-in on Meld was a mistake. They just went with a reskin of Monstrosity instead for half of the werewolves; amusingly, just redoing Monstrosity would have been more interesting and flavorfully could have been on point.
Elder Deep Fried is better than all of them.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Oath didn't just enhance BFZ it salvaged it. Oath is a fantastic set in my eyes not just for limited but also adding powerful cards to formats completely leaving Eldrazi aside.
Fun fact a friend of mine prior to the midnight pre got a 12 pod for OOB going.
Not leaving Eldrazi aside I can gush on and on about World Breaker.
Duel Commander Banlist update:
Changes:
Marath, Will of the Wild is now banned as a commander only.
Necrotic Ooze is now banned.
Dig Through Time is now banned.
Treasure Cruise is now banned.
Changes:
Marath, Will of the Wild is now banned as a commander only.
Necrotic Ooze is now banned.
Dig Through Time is now banned.
Treasure Cruise is now banned.
Etrian Oddity
Member
So is Human (White and/or Green) the only viable aggro deck?
It feels like every single other archetype -- even the ones that deem themselves aggro -- just take too long to set up and are more midrangey, and ramp is just too good to fight with another midrange deck.
It feels like every single other archetype -- even the ones that deem themselves aggro -- just take too long to set up and are more midrangey, and ramp is just too good to fight with another midrange deck.
No no no, that's just Duel (or French) Commander, there were no changes to the normal commander banlist.
Oh, that's not confusing at all.
Thanks for letting me know. Seriously.
With all the different names/nicknames/formats my old man brain is probably telling me to go back to YGO WC NDS.
Hecatonchires Custom
Member
I don't understand the Marath ban. It is the least played deck that was on the watchlist (good fucking riddance, btw) and the only one without U and yet is the only one that gets banned. The committee seems to really love blue decks and a control dominated metagame for some reason. They're all for diversity but they systematically nerf green cards update after update. I guess Titania will be next since it's doing so well right now.
We're currently in that usual post-prerelease lull. Ugh.
It's in times like this I like to kind of spark us by asking something like "What are your favorite cards". So with that in mind, I'd like to do a list like that, but slightly different. Let's talk about what are most hated cards are and why. Make it cards you hate seeing, or cards that betrayed your trust in some way. I'd propose we do one per color, including a section for a gold card, an artifact and a land.
Cards I hate! (and why)
White:
I'm sure this will be controversial, and honestly, I'm not as against it now as I was when I was a young buck learning the ropes. But I'm just not big on land destruction. I'm not big on being put in a position where I can't play the game. It's just feels-bad for the player who isn't prepared/built around that.
Blue:
There's a ton of blue stuff that I hate, (Stasis could have easily made the list, or Brain Freeze from my experience in Vintage Masters drafts) but this one is toward the top of the list for me. I'm not fond of a 1-CMC 3/2 flier with nearly no downside in blue. It was especially frustrating in Standard due to how easy it was to flip. I just don't think this card should exist in this color. That said, you damn well better believe I have and would still play it.
Black:
My buddy has a zombie deck that, when I started playing again, used to wreck the absolute hell out of my face. And this guy is a big reason why. You can't do much about it at all if you get into a long game and aren't playing Stifle effects.As a returning player who didn't know Stifle existed, you can imagine my frustration.
Red:
The only reason I hate Scrambleverse is because nobody else finds the fun in it but me. You ever try to cast a Scrambleverse in EDH? Scoopsville, population: Everyone. And it's salt city on top of it. I hate this card not because of what it does, but because I never get to even play it.
Green:
I was so pumped there was finally going to be a green dragon.
Whoops.
Gold:
I find this guy absolutely miserable to play against in EDH. Honestly it's a really cool design, it's just not fun.
Artifact:
Has anything good ever come from this little gem? Casual decks combo off with it in un-fun ways, cube drafts always love having it. It's just a dumb card.
Land:
To this day, I can't find a use for this. I hate it with every fiber of my being.
It's in times like this I like to kind of spark us by asking something like "What are your favorite cards". So with that in mind, I'd like to do a list like that, but slightly different. Let's talk about what are most hated cards are and why. Make it cards you hate seeing, or cards that betrayed your trust in some way. I'd propose we do one per color, including a section for a gold card, an artifact and a land.
Cards I hate! (and why)
White:
I'm sure this will be controversial, and honestly, I'm not as against it now as I was when I was a young buck learning the ropes. But I'm just not big on land destruction. I'm not big on being put in a position where I can't play the game. It's just feels-bad for the player who isn't prepared/built around that.
Blue:
There's a ton of blue stuff that I hate, (Stasis could have easily made the list, or Brain Freeze from my experience in Vintage Masters drafts) but this one is toward the top of the list for me. I'm not fond of a 1-CMC 3/2 flier with nearly no downside in blue. It was especially frustrating in Standard due to how easy it was to flip. I just don't think this card should exist in this color. That said, you damn well better believe I have and would still play it.
Black:
My buddy has a zombie deck that, when I started playing again, used to wreck the absolute hell out of my face. And this guy is a big reason why. You can't do much about it at all if you get into a long game and aren't playing Stifle effects.As a returning player who didn't know Stifle existed, you can imagine my frustration.
Red:
The only reason I hate Scrambleverse is because nobody else finds the fun in it but me. You ever try to cast a Scrambleverse in EDH? Scoopsville, population: Everyone. And it's salt city on top of it. I hate this card not because of what it does, but because I never get to even play it.
Green:
I was so pumped there was finally going to be a green dragon.
Whoops.
Gold:
I find this guy absolutely miserable to play against in EDH. Honestly it's a really cool design, it's just not fun.
Artifact:
Has anything good ever come from this little gem? Casual decks combo off with it in un-fun ways, cube drafts always love having it. It's just a dumb card.
Land:
To this day, I can't find a use for this. I hate it with every fiber of my being.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Working on a Tree of Perdition deck, saw this concept online (not my idea):
1. Activate ToP
2. Before the ability hits, cast Turn to Frog, making it a 1/1 blue frog
3. Ability applies, dropping opponent's life total to one
4. Deal damage with Collective Brutality or something
Orrrrr I could just go with a full Triskaidekaphobia / Tree of Perdition B/U deck where I draw cards until I get what I need.
1. Activate ToP
2. Before the ability hits, cast Turn to Frog, making it a 1/1 blue frog
3. Ability applies, dropping opponent's life total to one
4. Deal damage with Collective Brutality or something
Orrrrr I could just go with a full Triskaidekaphobia / Tree of Perdition B/U deck where I draw cards until I get what I need.
Something I've been thinking about, in terms of widening Red's pie a bit: give it armor-piercing. Mechanically, letting it remove +1/+1 counters from opponent's creatures is probably the easiest way to represent it, but that would only be relevant in an environment like Theros where tehre's a ton of +1/+1 counters to begin with. Something like this:
The other way to represent it mechanically is to have ways for red to ignore toughness boosting effects. This is probably too complex for common, reads weird and probably narrow enough that it's not worth doing, but it's still interesting to think about.
The other way to represent it mechanically is to have ways for red to ignore toughness boosting effects. This is probably too complex for common, reads weird and probably narrow enough that it's not worth doing, but it's still interesting to think about.
Wizards wants it to be proactive rather than reactive, so I think having some effects that are normally played reactively tied to proactive triggers and conditions could make for a nice middle ground. Something along these lines:
This takes me back to when I used to play an Underworld Dreams / Howling Mine deck in multiplayer, which would draw a gigantic target on my ass.Gold:
I find this guy absolutely miserable to play against in EDH. Honestly it's a really cool design, it's just not fun.
At least there was that one time I cast Diminishing Returns and got yelled at.
Ah, memories.
And oh yeah, fuck Gempalm Polluter.
A Serious Man
Member
All I took from this is that you hate Brain Freeze but like Stifle.
I don't recall saying I liked Stifle, or even similar cards? Just that I didn't know it existed.
CoconutTank
Member
Is temporary mana acceleration more part of the red pie nowadays? I've been seeing that on a few red cards lately and I feel like that might be interesting to focus on. It helps give a bursty feeling to red by giving them a little extra mana to squeeze out an instant or sorcery earlier than normal. As an example:
Stuff like Simian Spirit Guide also fit in that model, so along those lines, but not being too open ended:
Or even just more cards along the lines of being able to exile for no mana cost for a temporary boost.
A Serious Man
Member
Fuck I hate this Standard. The new versions of Bant are even more annoying than before and that's all anyone is playing. Playing against UW/Bant Spirits is the equivalent of slamming your face in a car door. I played a dozen matches in the beta today and every single one of them was against some variant of G/W/U. If the PT doesn't shake things up I'm going to check out of Standard for the first time in years.
SigmasonicX
Member
Temporary mana acceleration is red, but ritual effects (instants that add mana) are considered dangerous due to storm decks in non-rotating formats and their weird nature of being super weak much of the time, except when they're broken in the right deck. For that reason, they seem to be exploring having red's creatures provide the mana instead, but differentiating them from green's by tying them to attacks.
That werewolf that does this was pretty good when used against me at prerelease, so hopefully they explore that more.
And to add onto the stuff for red to explore, I've been interested in the idea of making red's spells more versatile. I imagine that red is the color most likely to attempt to use its spells in unorthodox ways in a pinch, and this can be reflected by spells with two modes. One is normal, while the other is related but niche. Like so:
Mini Dragon of the Darkness Flame - 3R
Instant
Choose one--
* Deal 4 damage to target creature.
* Deal 4 damage to target creature you control. That creatures gets +4/+0, haste, and first strike until end of turn.
That werewolf that does this was pretty good when used against me at prerelease, so hopefully they explore that more.
And to add onto the stuff for red to explore, I've been interested in the idea of making red's spells more versatile. I imagine that red is the color most likely to attempt to use its spells in unorthodox ways in a pinch, and this can be reflected by spells with two modes. One is normal, while the other is related but niche. Like so:
Mini Dragon of the Darkness Flame - 3R
Instant
Choose one--
* Deal 4 damage to target creature.
* Deal 4 damage to target creature you control. That creatures gets +4/+0, haste, and first strike until end of turn.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
and bant eldrazi now does nothing but chain deep fried. I already tired of Beta standard as well.
Grim flayer is a rad card but it's missing any good artifacts to get delirium quickly. I played Hangarback just to discard and make it a 4/4 and even when it's a 4/4 contrarily to Advocate it dies to languish.
Hearthstone's warrior might actually be something to look at for Red in mtg. It has a bunch of cards that deal damage and if the creature survives does some additional stuff.
charlequin
Banned
I liked when they called it the French Banlist, which was more obtuse but harder to confuse with the real Commander banlist.
This kind of touches on part of why red's color pie has been such a consistent problem: red is supposed to be good at a ton of stuff that's either too narrow to do all the time or too good/disruptive to push. Like, let's go through some red mechanics:
- Burn - is often good, but needs to be watched so it doesn't form a miserable linear deck.
- Temporary ramp - when it's good it's way too good, when it's bad it's not useful; they haven't ever found a good happy medium.
- Land destruction - miserable and easy to make too good, so instead it's basically disappeared.
- Temporary stealing - this is actually good, and they've made it a staple effect now, so this is a solid improvement
- Forking/snapcasting - too rare to do all the time.
- Aggro creatures - intentionally worse than white and green, and in practice worse than black.
- Looting - red purposely has a shitty version of this because the good version is extremely good in red archetypes.
- Impulsive draw - has only been pushed once, in DTK, again presumably because it's really really good in the main red archetypes.
- Random polymorphing - lol WotC won't give this to red even though it should
- Temporary reanimation - lol again
Every other color just has more stuff to work with and more mechanics that are seen as safe to push.
They had forms of temporary mana acceleration a few times earlier, so I'd say yes kinda.
So basically Channel but for free? Free stuff seems like a nightmare to get balanced properly. Free RR for instants / sorceries seems completely broken for example.
A Serious Man
Member
There are a number of brews I was excited to try out but they all get utterly crushed by Bant, to the point that I don't even want to bother. Now a large part of that is due to me being a mediocre deckbuilder and all these Bant variants being based on already refined decklists, but it's still really off-putting.
I guess you could even almost straight-up copy some designs.
Cruel Overseer 1R
Creature - Orc
When Cruel Overseer enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target creature you control. That creature gets +1/+0 and gains haste until end of turn.
1 / 2
Creature - Orc
When Cruel Overseer enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target creature you control. That creature gets +1/+0 and gains haste until end of turn.
1 / 2
Maybe have a nice ability word;
Hardened - When [this] is dealt damage, [effect].
I can also see some possibilities if they want to play more with the tap-land-don't-untap in red ( Stensia Innkeeper );
Pillaging Orcs 3RR
Creature - Orc
Trample
Whenever Pillaging Orcs deals combat damage to an opponent, tap target land that player controls. That land doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
4 / 3
Stalemate R
Sorcery ( too strong as instant? )
Tap target land you control and target land you don't control. Those lands do not untap during their controller's next untap step.
Creature - Orc
Trample
Whenever Pillaging Orcs deals combat damage to an opponent, tap target land that player controls. That land doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
4 / 3
Stalemate R
Sorcery ( too strong as instant? )
Tap target land you control and target land you don't control. Those lands do not untap during their controller's next untap step.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You just have to be ready to operate at instant speed right now but at the same time you need to deal with PWs, fast developed go wide boards, not to mention a 9/7 trample lifelink indestructible.
Once you can do all that be ready to get destroyed by ramp.
R Execute - Instant
Destroy target creature that has been dealt damage this turn.
Equipments with endurance, number of times they can be used to attack / def, would also be interesting
SigmasonicX
Member
As a one-shot effect, tapping just one land and nothing else is extremely weak, let alone including the downside of tapping your own land. In comparison, white gets Silence at one mana, which prevents a player from casting any spells that turn, which in practice is very similar to tapping all lands that player controls.
The reason why they'd likely keep land freezing at sorcery speed is that the land is tapped during your turn, that player's turn, and your next turn. In comparison, at instant speed, it's tapped during that player's turn, your turn, that player's next turn, and your next turn. Wizards also likes to avoid the confusion about tapping/destroying lands in response to a player tapping it for mana.
A Serious Man
Member
All I want in life is to draw cards, durdle around and then win with a PW ult. Is that so wrong? I know some circles would consider me a deviant but I wish WotC would support my lifestyle choice.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
There's a format for you it's called Vintage for the low price of a new car.
shrapnelmagnet
Member
Is there any permanents that allow you to return Enchantments to your hand from the battlefield at instant speed? Like, as a cost, or maybe paying a cost to do it?
Early searches are coming up fairly dry. Something like Wirewood Symbiote but for Enchantments.
Early searches are coming up fairly dry. Something like Wirewood Symbiote but for Enchantments.
Those effects are extremely awkward to template in MtG. Slam as it's printed in Hearthstone straight-up doesn't work in MtG, because damaging spells never kill creatures. After the spell is done resolving, the game rules kill the creature when state-based actions are checked. This is why all Disintegrate effects say "if that creature would die this turn" rather than "if that creature would die this way" -- it'll never die from the spell, so the best approximation you can do is set up a delayed replacement effect that lasts the whole turn (which can lead to unintuitive stuff like the creature surviving the burn, but being exiled at some later point in the turn when it gets hit by a Doom Blade).
The best you could do to imitate Slam would be a delayed trigger; something like "Slam deals 2 damage to target creature. It gains "at the beginning of the end step, each opponent draws a card" until end of turn." Frankly, that looks ugly, is way harder to grok than it should be, and doesn't even replicate Slam perfectly (both because it's delayed and because I can't think of a wording that'll give you the card no matter whose creature you slam).
Besides, in MtG, burning things part-way is significantly less useful than in Hearthstone. Slam effects don't work nearly as well when damage wears off at end of turn and the defending player gets to choose whether or not to block.
This effect has been printed a few times (as recently as Khans block), but always in black. I wouldn't mind seeing it in red, personally, but Wizards seems to hate putting the phrase "destroy target creature" on red cards, so I can't see it happening.
Why can't you just do "Slam - if this reduces target to 0 toughness"? or specifically for slam -> "If after that, the creature has 1+ toughness"
A Serious Man
Member
Obelisk of Undoing, although it won't be very pretty.
Damage doesn't reduce toughness in MtG (well, aside from Wither and Infect). Damage is marked on a creature, then later that damage is compared to the toughness to see if the creature should die or not.
You could technically do "~ deals 2 damage to target creature. Then if that creature has less damage marked on it than its toughness, draw a card.", but no cards talk about damage being marked on creatures except the oracle text of two ancient cards that had no other way to carry over their functionality to modern wordings. I cant imagine it's something they'd want to print, much like how they try their damnedest not to mention the stack. But still, talking about marked damage is something they could start doing if they wanted to, I suppose.
Triton Cavalry, technically? I doubt it suits your needs, but it is instant speed enchantment bounce on a permanent.
Given the plethora of cards that refer to accessing whatever temporary toughness a creature has (e.g. x deals its toughness in damage), it's definitely a stored value SOMEWHERE - so you could easily do "then, if the creature's toughness is 1 or higher", couldn't you?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Fair enough. Damage is more significant that way in Hearthstone but I feel we are partway there with cards like the combat trick that give you an on die 3/2 Eldrazi in EMN. Just not with burn specifically, templating may be tough. If they don't want to have destroy on non black cards they can just do "deal [cmc disproportionate] damage to a creature that has been dealt damage this turn".
Also since red can keep the creature burn can we finally get some efficient creature or PW burn. I feel like all colours except red can deal with PWs in standard because of the way burn got neutered.
Damage doesn't reduce toughness. If I have a 5/7 and deal 6 damage to it, it still has 7 toughness.
Looking at Slam from Hearthstone, the best way to template something like that in Magic would be: "~ deals 2 damage to target creature, then, if that creature hasn't been dealt lethal damage this turn, draw a card." The wording is a little awkward, but it works. It makes for an odd interaction with Indestructible and regeneration though. For example, if you were to play a card like that on Tajic, you would not get to draw a card, even though he'd survive.
Ended up going 4-0, 3-1, 3-1, 4-0, 2-2, and 3-1 in my prereleases. Pretty happy with my performance given how mediocre all my pools were, except the midnight on Friday pool. Five Mythics including promo Demolisher of the Provinces, Emrakul, Ulrich, and Gitrog is nice. Out of six pools and the prize packs I didn't open a single planeswalker though.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I've now included sudden shock into my Avacyn EDH deck. The times of dying to infinite combos shall be considerably lower from now on. Still missing return to dust, austere command, scroll rack, cavern of souls, maze of ith and Sword of Fire and Ice.
You hate the cycling zombie because you don't play decks that have good removal? Good removal makes that card horrible.We're currently in that usual post-prerelease lull. Ugh.
It's in times like this I like to kind of spark us by asking something like "What are your favorite cards". So with that in mind, I'd like to do a list like that, but slightly different. Let's talk about what are most hated cards are and why. Make it cards you hate seeing, or cards that betrayed your trust in some way. I'd propose we do one per color, including a section for a gold card, an artifact and a land.
Cards I hate! (and why)
White:
I'm sure this will be controversial, and honestly, I'm not as against it now as I was when I was a young buck learning the ropes. But I'm just not big on land destruction. I'm not big on being put in a position where I can't play the game. It's just feels-bad for the player who isn't prepared/built around that.
Blue:
There's a ton of blue stuff that I hate, (Stasis could have easily made the list, or Brain Freeze from my experience in Vintage Masters drafts) but this one is toward the top of the list for me. I'm not fond of a 1-CMC 3/2 flier with nearly no downside in blue. It was especially frustrating in Standard due to how easy it was to flip. I just don't think this card should exist in this color. That said, you damn well better believe I have and would still play it.
Black:
My buddy has a zombie deck that, when I started playing again, used to wreck the absolute hell out of my face. And this guy is a big reason why. You can't do much about it at all if you get into a long game and aren't playing Stifle effects.As a returning player who didn't know Stifle existed, you can imagine my frustration.
Red:
The only reason I hate Scrambleverse is because nobody else finds the fun in it but me. You ever try to cast a Scrambleverse in EDH? Scoopsville, population: Everyone. And it's salt city on top of it. I hate this card not because of what it does, but because I never get to even play it.
Green:
I was so pumped there was finally going to be a green dragon.
Whoops.
Gold:
I find this guy absolutely miserable to play against in EDH. Honestly it's a really cool design, it's just not fun.
Artifact:
Has anything good ever come from this little gem? Casual decks combo off with it in un-fun ways, cube drafts always love having it. It's just a dumb card.
Land:
To this day, I can't find a use for this. I hate it with every fiber of my being.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
as someone who regularly plays against the guy it works without nekusar through cards like megrim and such.
There's also the enchantment that makes zombies free to cast
If you're worried about infinite combos while playing W/R, I might recommend Mana Tithe, Lapse of Certainty, or Angel's Grace.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Gods be damned I forgot Angel's Grace again, thanks for reminding me. Even outside of infinite combos it's important for my Sunforger toolbox. I prioritize sudden shock because a friend of mine plays abzan infinite sac. Angel's Grace would just buy me an upkeep.
Also it has Angel in it and that alone is a huge plus. I'm down to just 25 angels though and only 3 of them boros coloured.
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