Won't Zen be a high power (desktop) architecture though, compared to the low power Jaguar?
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AMD announces Zen CPU preview on 13th December, hosted by Geoff Keighley.
- Thread starter Seronei
- Start date
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Nice let's hope Scorpio is around the corner 
UHD BluRay, new CPU, better GPU could be my first Xbox.
UHD BluRay, new CPU, better GPU could be my first Xbox.
Locuza
Member
It's actually a more lightweight architecture from today's standpoint which should scale across a wide range:
I think thats all the scorpio does at launch. But if they really want to 'blur the line between generations' the scorpio will have to be able to run xb2 games. It needs to be future proof.
Tallshortman
Member
Like what Locuza said, desktop Zen will have i3/i5/i7 level variants and will go even lower for laptop APUs.
shotgunbob04
Member
Oh how I hope Zen will be amazing and force Intel to drop their CPU prices.
PC building is on the rise; we all could use some competition in the CPU game.
PC building is on the rise; we all could use some competition in the CPU game.
Delusibeta
Banned
Honestly, there's technically nothing preventing Scorpio from running Xbthree games if it shipped with a Jaguar CPU, for basically the same the same reason why there's nothing preventing the OG Xbone from running Scorpio games: regardless of the CPU the Scorpio uses, if Microsoft mandates support and maintains compatibility, it will happen.
Proelite
Member
Threads are sometimes called logical cores.
I don't think any thing is concrete for or against Zen in Scorpio. Even AMDs comment that now custom Zen APUs doesn't rule out Zen since it could very well be McM or discrete CPu and GPU in Zen.
Hesemonni
Banned
I'd love to see the internet fanboy shit storm which would ensue if this was actually the case with the Scorpio. I'd sit back and enjoy the shit slinging.
And then buy the Scorpio.
thelastword
Banned
I've been thinking of creating a thread on what I think will go inside of Scorpio...For the moment, I believe Scorpio will be decked with an APU based on Raven Ridge...4 Physical cores and 8 threads........
Liabe Brave
Member
That was me. There's no verbatim quote, just a paraphrase by a reporter in discussion with her. Here's the exact quote:
This transalates as "Zen and new graphics in a semicustom solution won't come before 2018, indicated AMD President Lisa Su in a small group discussion."Computer Base said:
As seen above, this wasn't part of the presentation, it was in more informal talks after. We do have to trust the reporter, but he works for the very large and reputable site Computer Base so there's that.
And you let them? Shame on you.
Good news, hoping this'll be a good release for AMD - it'd be good for everyone, even Intel users.
Brad Grenz
Member
The only shitstorm you'll see is from the fanboys who deluded themselves into believing it would have Zen going crazy when it's confirmed to be Jaguar.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The problem we're facing now is that a crummy CPU doesn't perform noticeably better than a high end one for 99% of end users. And technically I am still using a crummy CPU.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
I stand to be corrected but I refuse to believe Microsoft could be THAT stupid.
you are expecting too much from them at too low prices. It ends up being problem of your high expectations not Microsoft's poor delivery. But then again, they have been mystical about Scorpio on purpose to delay people's purchase of Pro so maybe they deserve it.
therealbigrich
Member
Feel like a lot of guessing is going on just like when rumors of PS4 pro , Scorpio and Switch happened . I'm at the point where I cant believe anything until its actually announced from the companies themselves.
Ah, cheers. I feel that this does little to clarify the matter, though, as "indicated" implies some degree of uncertainty.
IPC was crap, an so was performance for branch-heavy code. SIMD performance for optimized code was decent -- better per core in fact than on XB1/PS4.
LelouchZero
Member
Oh wow that's interesting, thanks!
Agreed. I'm hopeful of it anyway.
I just don't see the point of them taking the hit of waiting a year if it's still going to be borked by Jaguar, they should of released alongside the Pro if that is the case.
If they do release with Jaguar, I'm going to build a PC.
Locuza
Member
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/5fs7p9/summary_of_interview_with_lisa_su/
No Zen in Scorpio intensifies.
LelouchZero
Member
Electret
Member
Very interesting. Thanks for the link. It appears that Lisa's remark as reported by ComputerBase was legit. Definitely leaning towards no Zen.
Also, from your link:
Combined with previous reports about foundries skipping ahead to 7nm, I think we can expect this to be the next major node for consumer computing hardware and for next-generation consoles (PS5).
So, AMD CEO Lisa Su confirmed / re-confirmed that semi-custom IP with Zen would be for the 2018-2019 time frame.
From Credit Suisse 20th Annual Technology, Media & Telecom Conference on Wednesday.
Webcast: https://cc.talkpoint.com/cred001/112816a_as/?entity=54_FBH3EQX
That part is around 17:40 ~ 17:55 into the audio.
From Credit Suisse 20th Annual Technology, Media & Telecom Conference on Wednesday.
Webcast: https://cc.talkpoint.com/cred001/112816a_as/?entity=54_FBH3EQX
That part is around 17:40 ~ 17:55 into the audio.
Lagspike_exe
Member
No Zen in Scorpio, we will have to wait for next gen for enhanced CPU capability.
We already figured this though. But i guess some people needed more confirmation.
now people should understand now why Sony were not in a rush to upgrade their components significantly. if Sony is going to be the only one going forward in a traditional generation type upgrade where software follows the hardware, having Zen for that seems way more of a priority than a mid generation refresh and the same goes for the other components. MS must surely know this as well
Toadthemushroom
Member
Wow, so no semi-custom Zen until 2018 at the earliest. I mean, it was pretty obvious Zen wasn't coming to Scorpio as others have mentioned - heck, MS would have boasted about Scorpio's CPU in the reveal trailer if it were - but this is still disappointing.
I mean, I doubt most people will notice the difference between 1800p checkerboard and native 4k in most games, so it feels like MS is again going to be market follower than leader. I guess one advantage Scorpio will have is improved memory bandwidth and more RAM (12GB iirc) will enable it to avoid the framerate drops in busier moments that were a bottleneck on PS4 Pro. But I still think it won't be worth the year wait over PS4 Pro.
It'll be interesting to see what happens anyway. In 2013, Iwata heavily hinted that Nintendo's new platform (which became Switch) would be more like iOS and Android and the games will be more "portable", as in, won't be tied to a very specific hardware specification. This will enable to Nintendo's platform to play host to software that won't break when the hardware changes architectures, and new form factors which should "just work" as well, unlike N3DS and PS4 Pro which don't work like a new iPhone or PC do.
Meanwhile Sony will be sticking to the generations approach whereby a PS5 will be a clean break from PS4, and will likely be signalled by a major bump in CPU performance (new architecture) alongside GPU and (hopefully) some improvements to the interface and input device (controller). Whether this means PS5 breaks compatibility with PS4 games is another story, but I feel if the PS4's library isn't forwards compatible with PS5 starting again on a new console with a very tiny selection of games might prove to be a bugbear for the PS5. Even if they enable PS4 games via PS Now.
Microsoft seem to be doing something in between both Nintendo and Sony, and they could be stuck in a weird place given they aren't seen as market leader.
I mean, I doubt most people will notice the difference between 1800p checkerboard and native 4k in most games, so it feels like MS is again going to be market follower than leader. I guess one advantage Scorpio will have is improved memory bandwidth and more RAM (12GB iirc) will enable it to avoid the framerate drops in busier moments that were a bottleneck on PS4 Pro. But I still think it won't be worth the year wait over PS4 Pro.
It'll be interesting to see what happens anyway. In 2013, Iwata heavily hinted that Nintendo's new platform (which became Switch) would be more like iOS and Android and the games will be more "portable", as in, won't be tied to a very specific hardware specification. This will enable to Nintendo's platform to play host to software that won't break when the hardware changes architectures, and new form factors which should "just work" as well, unlike N3DS and PS4 Pro which don't work like a new iPhone or PC do.
Meanwhile Sony will be sticking to the generations approach whereby a PS5 will be a clean break from PS4, and will likely be signalled by a major bump in CPU performance (new architecture) alongside GPU and (hopefully) some improvements to the interface and input device (controller). Whether this means PS5 breaks compatibility with PS4 games is another story, but I feel if the PS4's library isn't forwards compatible with PS5 starting again on a new console with a very tiny selection of games might prove to be a bugbear for the PS5. Even if they enable PS4 games via PS Now.
Microsoft seem to be doing something in between both Nintendo and Sony, and they could be stuck in a weird place given they aren't seen as market leader.
^ I think sony will do everything they can to avoid breaking their hold on marketshare and streamline their ecosystem. That means prioritizing BC.
It made sense with PS3 to PS4 to break compatibility, because of the esoteric nature of the PS3's hardware, but PS4 to PS5 should be significantly easier at any rate.
It made sense with PS3 to PS4 to break compatibility, because of the esoteric nature of the PS3's hardware, but PS4 to PS5 should be significantly easier at any rate.
This was expected.
Exciting times, e3 is so far away though.
Delusibeta
Banned
Judging by this very thread (edit: and the previous post, lol), there's a significant portion of the Xbox fanbase that has convinced themselves that Scorpio will use Zen. They're probably in for a surprise when Jaguar shows up again.
Toadthemushroom
Member
We'll have to see; I'm not convinced. The reason both N3DS and PS4 Pro didn't change architectures is because it'd break binary compatibility with software, particularly those games which are coded "close to the metal" (on PS4 an example would be Batman: Arkham Knight) using. You had "base" and "enhanced" modes for those systems to use instead. The question would be whether a Zen/Vega PS5 would easily be able to retain BC with PS4 games without breaking anything.
3DS did with DS and GBA but only by including an older ARM architecture chip (an ARM A9) for that purpose, and the 3DS itself would reboot into DS or GBA firmware to play those games. Wii U was less straightforward.
I have to stop you here.
PS Pro didn't change architectures because it was still a PS4 primarily and they had no use for changing architecture, as there was no architecture to change. There was no worth it CPU or RAM upgrade that would be worth it this year, and especially not in the price bracket they wanted. So they would not have changed architectures regardless of what the circumstances were.
When they have to change architectures, you can bet their bottom dollar they will invest as much as they can into making it as painless as possible for their own sakes
Lagspike_exe
Member
They'll need to boost Jag a lot more than Sony has done to make 60 FPS work at 4K (native or not). Not sure if they can add more cores and IIRC Jag is notoriously bad for overclocking. Over 2,1GHz is probably the area with quickly diminishing returns.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
I bet Scorpio will delay to 2018 or use some other AMD CPU is bigger chance that they will use Jaguar again.
Otherwise if i'm MS i will just release scorpio earlier(first half of 2017), if Zen can't make it in 2017.
Toadthemushroom
Member
I don't buy that part of your argument. So they didn't change architecture because it wasn't available to them?
Otherwise I mostly agree, but it's pretty indicative of the general lack of investment and progress in the x86 space right now. Just look at how far Apple has gone performance-wise from the iPhone 5s to the iPhone 7. It makes PS4 Pro seem pretty disappointing given the three year gap. Same thing will undeniably happen with Scorpio I think.
The only issues you get from radical boosts to performance occur when developers start targeting hardware from the top-down, but there's no financial incentive for devs to design games specifically for PS4 Pro first and PS4 later.
Locuza
Member
AMD sold 28nm products with 2,4 Ghz (25W TPD with the iGPU) in the embeeded space.
For consumers overclocking wasn't much fun because you could only manipulate the bus-speed.
For Jaguar the most limiting factor will be the energy budget for the CPU.
Bits N Pieces
Member
What kind of CPU should you be using if you want to get to a good level of performance for VR games?
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
Doubt it but who knows, personally i think we shouldn't put too much of ourselves to the Scorpio yet til they officially revealed the console with details, should be at E3 2017 latest.
Lagspike_exe
Member
What was it? The highest clocked Jag I could find was in Athlon 5370 @ 2,2GHz and 25W TDP.
Nikodemos
Member
Note that he said embedded space.
Puma based netbooks are rated for 2.4 GHz. Puma+ ('Carrizo-L') are rated for 2.5 GHz.
I know this since I'm typing this message on a Puma laptop.
Well, Pentium 4 was released 16 years ago!
He should have said 10 years ago, the launch of Core 2.
Still, hoping that Zen is good. As I have stated before though, they have already lost the lead designer behind it (Keller) and frankly, the last time that happened was...wait for it, after the design of K8, the last time AMD had a competitive architecture which is 16 years old.
Nikodemos
Member
Keller wasn't a permanent addition, since AMD don't have the kind of pockets needed to keep him onboard on a constant basis. He was a contract hire.
Well look at the whole post.
Not only did they not have an available architecture, they didn't plan to do that in the first place because Pro was always a half step in function, they never were going to change it that drastically
A non starter for a console in this day and age, from both a cost and pure footprint perspective.
Lots of people that really really want 60fps on consoles as the standard were hoping for zen to save them from the horrors of 30fps. I think they were simply ignoring logic and common sense and just holding out hope