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Dice · Dec 11, 2006

JetSetHero said:
http://fixco1.com/xbush911.jpg

Ding ding.

It's ****ing disgusting.

Dying for your faith and killing for your faith are two very different things. By generalizing and assuming these negative things towards them you do exactly what the evangelicals do. How about we stop demonizing people and work on figuring out how to deprogram the irrationality? If you didn't actually think that they were capable of something better you would have no grounds to judge them.

Alcibiades · Dec 11, 2006

People here are overreacting. This isn't the middle east where you get indoctrinated early and are stuck there forcibly, TONS of people grow up in secluded or sheltered lifestyles here in the US, and it's not exactly the end of the world.

It was worse 100 years ago before TV, radio, and internet (and places today like Mormon Polygamy places that are secluded 100%).

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, and 20+ year old naive people still in Jesus mode, but it's ridiculous to think they'll all end up in that situation. Most harddcore evangelical types I know are full aware of the broad lifestyles and diversity of entertainment and "evils", etc... As long as they get exposed the the "real world" here and there while growing up, they'll be fine.

There are the handful that don't own a TV and even Disney movies are bad because they don't serve Jesus, blah blah, but the majority of harddcore Christians I know that grew up in these lifestyles now own violent videogames (and love them), watch Harry Potter, Star Trek, and other impure stuff, and are more worried about college and personal stuff than putting non-Jesus people down.

Is this type of indoctrination good? No

Is there cause for alarm? No

Spainkiller · Dec 11, 2006

Dice said:
Dying for your faith and killing for your faith are two very different things. By generalizing and assuming these negative things towards them you do exactly what the evangelicals do. How about we stop demonizing people and work on figuring out how to deprogram the irrationality? If you didn't actually think that they were capable of something better you would have no grounds to judge them.

When did I say they weren't capable of anything better? It just seems to me that asking if you're ready to 'die for Jesus' is an extremely weighted question. Looking back at the history of religon, I think I've got every right to be extremely cautious when somebody starts talking like that.

We live in a world where 0.1% of a group of people can cause extreme damage. We don't have to look back very far to see what this attitude breeds. I could post the picture again?

Spainkiller · Dec 11, 2006

Alcibiades said:
People here are overreacting. This isn't the middle east where you get indoctrinated early and are stuck there forcibly, TONS of people grow up in secluded or sheltered lifestyles here in the US, and it's not exactly the end of the world.

It was worse 100 years ago before TV, radio, and internet (and places today like Mormon Polygamy places that are secluded 100%).

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, and 20+ year old naive people still in Jesus mode, but it's ridiculous to think they'll all end up in that situation. Most harddcore evangelical types I know are full aware of the broad lifestyles and diversity of entertainment and "evils", etc... As long as they get exposed the the "real world" here and there while growing up, they'll be fine.

There are the handful that don't own a TV and even Disney movies are bad because they don't serve Jesus, blah blah, but the majority of harddcore Christians I know that grew up in these lifestyles now own violent videogames (and love them), watch Harry Potter, Star Trek, and other impure stuff, and are more worried about college and personal stuff than putting non-Jesus people down.

Is this type of indoctrination good? No

Is there cause for alarm? No

No, no of course there's no cause for alarm. Except that most of America's leaders who represent the people are influenced by a faith that is damaging to the harmless lifestyles of a lot of people. And let's not mention doctors getting killed for carrying out abortion procedures.

Is there anything more depressing than people defending this kind of stuff?

Alcibiades · Dec 11, 2006

Ikael said:
How such an extremely fantic vision of religion can flourish in one of the most advanced countries in the world is beyond me. I was on the opinion that to be able eat warm food 3 times per day med you less vulnerable to this shit. This putted pretty clear that education is vital and must be a monopoly of the state, period. This is what happen when idiots have the right to educate children.

How anyone can assume that Jesus fanatics are "flourishing" in America is beyond me. This is one documentary. I'm sure there's tons of Jesus indoctrination going on in rural areas and Southern States, but there's also a sizable white supremist community around the US and around the world, and someone can make a documentary following the many gatherings of hundreds and thousands that they have. Doesn't mean it's flourishing.

Jesus fanatics in the extreme sense exist, but they certainly aren't the majority in the US or even a majority of people that go to church.

brandonh83 · Dec 11, 2006

I saw this. I don't want to again. But it was well made... too bad the content essentially petrified me for life :lol

Alcibiades · Dec 11, 2006

JetSetHero said:
No, no of course there's no cause for alarm. Except that most of America's leaders who represent the people are influenced by a faith that is damaging to the harmless lifestyles of a lot of people.

Most European leaders are also influenced in some way by Christianity, big deal, the whole Western World is. Mexico's President went further than Bush did in using religion to get votes. In Germany there are the "Christian Democrats".

And doesn't a lot of "faiths" on some level damage innocent lifestyles? Islam, Christianity, Judiasm, Hindu, etc... Seems to me it's the extreme that people will take it that is harmful.

And let's not mention doctors getting killed for carrying out abortion procedures.

heck, how about people getting killed for plain old not being a certain religion? happens a lot around the world... there are nuts out there in the US, but I don't think the intention of church camps is to indoctrinate people to go and kill doctors...

Is there anything more depressing than people defending this kind of stuff?

Who's defending it? I just said people are overreacting.

Spainkiller · Dec 11, 2006

Alcibiades said:
Most European leaders are also influenced in some way by Christianity, big deal, the whole Western World is. Mexico's President went further than Bush did in using religion to get votes. In Germany there are the "Christian Democrats".

And that's wrong too.

And doesn't a lot of "faiths" on some level damage innocent lifestyles? Islam, Christianity, Judiasm, Hindu, etc... Seems to me it's the extreme that people will take it that is harmful.

Yes, they do. And that's wrong too.

heck, how about people getting killed for plain old not being a certain religion? happens a lot around the world... there are nuts out there in the US, but I don't think the intention of church camps is to indoctrinate people to go and kill doctors...

Not the intention of most camps, no. But we're not talking about most camps. I expect that if the kids were brown and being asked if they were 'willing to die for Allah' a lot more people would be alarmed.

Who's defending it? I just said people are overreacting.

If even one person gets killed because of something like this, it's not an overreaction.

Dan · Dec 11, 2006

Alcibiades said:
How anyone can assume that Jesus fanatics are "flourishing" in America is beyond me.

Where have you been for the last 6 years? We have a president who claims "God speaks through [him]." Forget the fact that he claims God told him to become president, told him to invade Afghanistan and told him to end the tyranny in Iraq.

I'd also add that around 25% of Americans classify themselves as Evangelical Christians. No cause for concern? Riiiiight.

I'm sure there's tons of Jesus indoctrination going on in rural areas and Southern States, but there's also a sizable white supremist community around the US and around the world, and someone can make a documentary following the many gatherings of hundreds and thousands that they have. Doesn't mean it's flourishing.

FWIW, studies have shown that white supremacist groups in America actually have been flourishing in America in recent years. Recruitment has been way, way up.

Dice · Dec 11, 2006

JetSetHero said:
When did I say they weren't capable of anything better? It just seems to me that asking if you're ready to 'die for Jesus' is an extremely weighted question. Looking back at the history of religon, I think I've got every right to be extremely cautious when somebody starts talking like that.

We live in a world where 0.1% of a group of people can cause extreme damage. We don't have to look back very far to see what this attitude breeds. I could post the picture again?

You underestimate their martyrdom paranoia. I'd say it's especially true of the pentecostals to share as many stories of martyrs around the world as they can. It's part of an overall scare/guilt tactic to get people to "repent" or whatever you call that emotionally manipulated response. The world is coming to an end, things will only get worse, it's not long before they take our bibles and kill us, etc. It all stems from their screwed up eschatology.

I expect that if the kids were brown and being asked if they were 'willing to die for Allah' a lot more people would be alarmed.

Because that's a different group with a different history and current events. Much violence in the history of Christianity was clearly only using it as a veil for empires to dominate (and when the religion itself was under governmental control via rome), not small groups of fanatical religious insurgents. If you start seeing Christian groups like that popping up, then I'll be worried. In the case of a religious president carrying out a violent war with poor tactics and no sense when it only gets worse, I am concerned. But I don't tie him to these camps, he's an entirely different denomination with different workings and his own personal delusions.

Spainkiller · Dec 11, 2006

Dice said:
You underestimate their martyrdom paranoia. I'd say it's especially true of the pentecostals to share as many stories of martyrs around the world as they can. It's part of an overall scare/guilt tactic to get people to "repent" or whatever you call that emotionally manipulated response. The world is coming to an end, things will only get worse, it's not long before they take our bibles and kill us, etc. It all stems from their screwed up eschatology.

Maybe I do. Thankfully I've never come into contact with an evangelical person.

Because that's a different group with a different history and current events. Much violence in the history of Christianity was clearly only using it as a veil for empires to dominate (and when the religion itself was under governmental control via rome), not small groups of fanatical religious insurgents. If you start seeing Christian groups like that popping up, then I'll be worried. In the case of a religious president carrying out a violent war with poor tactics and no sense when it only gets worse, I am concerned. But I don't tie him to these camps, he's an entirely different denomination with different workings and his own personal delusions.

But that's part of the problem - these camps are demonstrating how Christianity could head in that direction. These groups of people feel that a President who carries out a war in the name of religion isn't doing enough!

Alcibiades · Dec 11, 2006

JetSetHero said:
If even one person gets killed because of something like this, it's not an overreaction.

Many people are going to get killed for a variety of different reasons. Supposing we ban church camps and/or religion, it wouldn't be the end of other instances of "something like this" that eventually result in people hating and killing. Should we ban violent videogames because at least one person has been killed due to a nutcase getting a high off those types of games?

The human soul or mindset as a whole needs to change.

It's important to move against hating people, but if someone grows up to kill an abortion doctor, I'd bet there are many other influences out there other than some religious camp. There are serious problems with America and the rest of the world for that matter, and yes, these camps aren't always for the best in terms of keeping kids healthy in open-mindedness, but because of the way society works in the US in the 21st centurty, it's not as big a problem as people are making it out to be.

I agree it should stop, but my point is the level of outrage is overblown, as if people are gonna grow up in this culture and stay in it their whole lives. The fact that everything is polarized because of the middle-east conflict and the close elections in the US has given this culture a higher profile than there used to be maybe, but they certainly don't run the US, not even the Republican Party is controlled by extremists (estimated at about 30% of the Republican in 2000 and ultimately shrinking).

atomsk · Dec 11, 2006

robojimbo said:
Every time I see this thread title I read it as "Jesse Camp... ugh."

me too. i was going to relate a story about how this one time when i was at six flags, alice cooper was putting on a concert that night, so me and my friends went to check it out, and the opening band ended up being jesse camp, and pretty much everyone in the crowd hated him. people were throwing shit at him, and booing after every song. he pretty much lost it and started cursing at everyone.

good times

Alcibiades · Dec 11, 2006

Dan said:
Where have you been for the last 6 years? We have a president who claims "God speaks through [him]." Forget the fact that he claims God told him to become president, told him to invade Afghanistan and told him to end the tyranny in Iraq.

That doesn't mean fanaticism is flourishing. I'm sure he's religious more than the average person, but I'm sure most Presidents have thought God played a part in eventually arriving at the office in some way. That said, Jesus doesn't decide elections, the people/electoral college/supreme court do. I mean, Katherine Harris was also told to run by God, where did that get her? Success in life attributed to God isn't really out of the ordinary in America, even with non-religious people. "God led me to be a football player." "God guided me through my business career"...

I also think you're overestimating or misjudging the amount of talk God if giving Bush here. It's not like if Clinton were in office and he were making a decision to invade, that asking "God" for guidance would be out of the question. At some point, military decisions were made, probably very uneasy decisions, and I don't see it unreasonable at all that Bush sought guidance of a higher sort than just human advisors.

Now if claims God told him to bomb China and we attack tomorrow, I'd be concerned. But Iraq and Afganistan? That's practically a no-brainer after 9-11 anyway. I'd say Blair had more say into Bush's decision to "end the tryanny" than God did. I'll be eating my words if we start a war out of nowhere, but these 2 at least seemed very calculated decisions over a period of months (Afganistan) and years (Iraq).

I'd also add that around 25% of Americans classify themselves as Evangelical Christians. No cause for concern? Riiiiight.

I'm certainly not concerned. The number of people in this group where I go to college is probably over 50% "Evangelical Christian", and out of the hundreds I've met over the past several years, only a handful would give me reason for concern. Mostly because of an anti-entertainment agenda. If 25% of America wanted to take away my sex-laden TV and movies, I'd be concerned. Luckily, lots of evangelical christians aren't nutcases, and many even like Harry Potter and other Hollywood stuff.

FWIW, studies have shown that white supremacist groups in America actually have been flourishing in America in recent years. Recruitment has been way, way up.

Well that I didn't know, but I propose this is a bigger problem than Jesus camps.

In summary, I have a positive outlook for America for the most part, in spite of the Jesus worship since 100+ years ago. I'll just agree to disagree about how bad this truly is.

WrathOfOtaibah · Dec 11, 2006

Dan said:
August 27th, 1987
Robert Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

George H.W. Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Enough said.

George H.W. Bush isn't really that religious. He started becoming more religious when he noticed that Texas and the south began shifting towards fanatical religion, namely the SBC's seemingly exponential growth. George W. Bush saw this too and became reborn, probably as soon as he decided that he wanted to be Governor of Texas and perhaps the President of the United States.

Everything the Bush family does is pretty much done to ensure winning elections. Their family has never been trendsetters, they always follow the trends.

I'd also add that around 25% of Americans classify themselves as Evangelical Christians. No cause for concern? Riiiiight.

Yes but this doesn't really mean much. Only a small handful of these people are fanatical believers. If there was this poll, I'd probably count myself as a Catholic but I believe in absolutely nothing that is preached. I just consider myself one because of all the bullshit rigamaroll I did when I was young to be confirmed.

Sure there are fanatics but there are fanatics in everything. Ecoterrorists, radical feminists, fanatical Christians, etc. Its all the same group of people. These people always tend to be fanatical about something. Take away Assembly of God or whatever and they will be fanatical about something else.

FWIW, studies have shown that white supremacist groups in America actually have been flourishing in America in recent years. Recruitment has been way, way up.

Well, this is mostly due to the internet. Instant hate group websites that is easily accessible to anyone. Then again, these supremacist groups are getting more recruits in Europe also.

If there is a cause, I'm guessing it has more to do with multiculturalism running into some snags. The government's inability to address the illegal immigration problem is pissing a lot of people off. Of course, most people think that it is because they are afraid of being called racists; many do not realize it has more to do with businesses hiring cheap, illegal, and non-union labor.

Jonm1010 · Dec 11, 2006

Alcibiades said:
Many people are going to get killed for a variety of different reasons. Supposing we ban church camps and/or religion, it wouldn't be the end of other instances of "something like this" that eventually result in people hating and killing. Should we ban violent videogames because at least one person has been killed due to a nutcase getting a high off those types of games?

The human soul or mindset as a whole needs to change.

It's important to move against hating people, but if someone grows up to kill an abortion doctor, I'd bet there are many other influences out there other than some religious camp. There are serious problems with America and the rest of the world for that matter, and yes, these camps aren't always for the best in terms of keeping kids healthy in open-mindedness, but because of the way society works in the US in the 21st centurty, it's not as big a problem as people are making it out to be.

I agree it should stop, but my point is the level of outrage is overblown, as if people are gonna grow up in this culture and stay in it their whole lives. The fact that everything is polarized because of the middle-east conflict and the close elections in the US has given this culture a higher profile than there used to be maybe, but they certainly don't run the US, not even the Republican Party is controlled by extremists (estimated at about 30% of the Republican in 2000 and ultimately shrinking).

First please elaborate on how society works that makes you think that its not a reason of concern. Let me give you an example I have relatives that live out in the midwest and participate in a very fundamentalist church organization. This town and many many towns like it in the midwest and the south have very alarming influence. Consider this you are raised in a fundamentalist group from childhood, the tv stations unless you have sattelite are very scarce, the radio is either country or religious music, lots of towns have controlled literature are a very scarce amount of it at all, theres scarce internet access and rush limbaugh and similar people of his mindset control talk radio. you also forget how many people dont go to college and this is their only life influences. Not to mention the snowball affect of those rebelling that turn to the other extremes of drugs and alcohol as a previous poster mentioned. Maybe you should ask your self this question, Why is it that their are so many people in this country willing to put their kids through this stuff, if their parents couldnt escape the influence what makes you think that the children will, considering the movement is growing at an ever increasing rate, that also must show that either these people are having a crapload of kids or some of these children that grew up in this enviorenment are now raising their children in it too.

Dont run the US? All right maybe not completelly but you have to admit The president caters to those extremists and is worshipped by some of them. The ENTIRE Republican parties strategy has been to CATER to the evangelicals, to gain their strong voting power. Even if they arent themselves fundies the Republican party credits a HUGE portion of their voting to conservative christians and mostlly evangelicals. their is a continued trend by republicans to blur what the founding fathers spoke about on seperation of church and state and it is coming to fruitation in this era because of the catering to these groups and their support, that is a concern for me. Another concern is that Republicans still garner voters like my dad that still think the republican party is the same as it was in the Reagan era which its not. These old time voters help move the evangelical influence into the gov. simply by association, once again a snowball affect.

White Man · Dec 11, 2006

robojimbo said:
Every time I see this thread title I read it as "Jesse Camp... ugh."

You know, I'd probably take getting indoctrinated at a Jesus Camp than having Jesse Camp enter the public spotlight again. Jesse is probably one of the few things worse than Jesus camp.

Diablos · Dec 11, 2006

Jonm1010 said:
The ENTIRE Republican parties strategy has been to CATER to the evangelicals, to gain their strong voting power. Even if they arent themselves fundies the Republican party credits a HUGE portion of their voting to conservative christians and mostlly evangelicals.

Bingo.

Seriously, get rid of or just diminish the evangelical vote in 2004, and John Kerry is likely the sitting President.

Belfast · Dec 11, 2006

They're like pedophiles of the mind or something.

Alcibiades · Dec 11, 2006

I've elaborated that I just think with today's culture where there is tons of media overload it doesn't seem like these closed societies aren't gonna be able to exist like they could 100 years ago. If it didn't kill the US back then, I don't think it's gonna happen again. I understand about the child that grows up with church and country music and is home schooled, but it seems to me the radical "right" is getting exposed more than "flourishing". The population is there, but it's not a large portion of people that go to church.

Diablos said:
Seriously, get rid of or just diminish the evangelical vote in 2004, and John Kerry is likely the sitting President.

Uh, can't you say that about any group?

Get rid of or just diminish the Black Vote and where does that leave any Democratic vicotry in the past 20 years? OMG, Blacks control the US when Clinton or Pelosi in power! For that matter, get rid of any strongly tied constituency and state that opposite party would be sitting in power. Wow, feminists, stock traders, etc... control the country now?

SoVos20 · Dec 11, 2006

Those parents need to be arrested for chid abuse. They are forcing their disease of a religion on these children. We should be moving away for god belief, and but instead it preverses humanity because garbage like these parents. Society would do well to remove these kinds of people.

whytemyke · Dec 11, 2006

This is a fairly big problem. Maybe you haven't noticed, Alchibades, but the people are generally the ones who put the leaders into position.

Usually, the majority has a respect for the minority opinion. not minority people so much, but at least the opinion. But when you bring religion into it, and allow people to see through government-lenses that the minority opinion is demonic, then you lose debate because you force out the minority opinion. And without debate, you lose freedom of 'thought'... which essentially means you lose freedom, day by day.

Jonm1010 · Dec 11, 2006

Alcibiades said:
I've elaborated that I just think with today's culture where there is tons of media overload it doesn't seem like these closed societies aren't gonna be able to exist like they could 100 years ago. If it didn't kill the US back then, I don't think it's gonna happen again. I understand about the child that grows up with church and country music and is home schooled, but it seems to me the radical "right" is getting exposed more than "flourishing". The population is there, but it's not a large portion of people that go to church.

Uh, can't you say that about any group?

Get rid of or just diminish the Black Vote and where does that leave any Democratic vicotry in the past 20 years? OMG, Blacks control the US when Clinton or Pelosi in power! For that matter, get rid of any strongly tied constituency and state that opposite party would be sitting in power. Wow, feminists, stock traders, etc... control the country now?

You questioned if this is a concern and i anwserd that it is. With that media also comes a very good new tool for these same closeminded people to push their agenda even further by using all these new means of technology. How many people do you see on youtube comments, other internet comments or anything else still claiming dinosaurs and people lived together or claiming iraq had direct links to al qaida and 911.

The thing you should realize is that the closeminded belief system put into place where they dont question things just believe in them irregardless of the evidence will still be present unless they themselves take it upon them to question their way of absorbing info. So even if they change some beliefs and dismiss some, MOST people never question very much of the heritage they are brought up in and the way it may have influenced other decisions they still havent questioned. and thus since most people arent big on the intracacies of politics, that raised belief to vote one way or another stemming from religous upbringing may ultimatelly push the country into that evangelical or conservative christian agenda. Since as i mentioned that agenda IS the REPUBLICAN parties BASE as they self proclaim and it is whom they advocate for more then any other one group. And when that secondary decision to vote republican because of core religious values isnt questioned you still have a republican voter pushing that agenda. I mean really how many people do you know that have questioned every bit of the beliefs they were brought up into and questioned what role those core beliefs have influenced other beliefs stemming from that core religious upbringing( such as political, social tolerence, parenting, relationships etc). Most still hold those secondary beliefs even after questioning the core beliefs. Because that second part is where i think most people in this country and in the world tend to ignore and never analyze.

No it didnt kill the country then but slowlly our country since the revolution has reverted to ways our founding fathers never intended it too. Not all are the result of attemtps of religous integration but it plays a part and for me and any person who belives in core ideals this country is founded on(The constitution) should be a reason for concern.

Eric P · Dec 11, 2006

if you all are actually scared, do yourself a favor and read Lauren Sandler's Righteous.

In Righteous: Dispatches from the Evangelical Youth Movement, Lauren Sandler, a dynamic young journalist, reports from this junction of Evangelicalism and youth culture, traveling across the country to investigate the alternative Christian explosion. Using the grassroots modus operandi of the 1960s, these religious kidspart of the Disciple Generation as Sandler calls itturn an antiauthoritarian sneer toward liberalism, feminism, pacifism, and every other hallmark of that eras counterculture. And theyre engaging their peers with startling success, fusing pop culture, politics, and religion as they preach from the pulpit of the skate park, bar, and rock concert. Secular, liberal, and practically the embodiment of everything Evangelicalism deems unholy, Sandler travels with skateboard missionaries, hangs out with the tattooed members of a postpunk Seattle megachurch that has evolved into a self-sufficient community, camps out with a rocknroll antiabortion group, and gets to know the rap preachers who are merging hip-hops love of money with old-fashioned bible-beating fundamentalism. Much more than a mere observer, she connects with these young people on an intimate level, and the candor with which they reveal themselves to her is truly astonishing.

Fascinating joint interview in the new Anthem dealing w/ both the filmmaker's for Jesus Camp and w/ Sandler's book.

BocoDragon · Dec 11, 2006

I'm watching the movie as we speak.

This is disgusting.

Getting kids all emotional and to believe in some arbitrary belief is like pissing all over the floor: Very easy, quite harmful, and quite stupid.

WrathOfOtaibah · Dec 11, 2006

Let me give you an example I have relatives that live out in the midwest and participate in a very fundamentalist church organization

I live out in the Midwest.

I see a lot of these churches being built. A lot of them don't even have to pay for it because they can just sucker some old farmer to give up a dozen acres of land (for free) to build their church. Sometimes, as they close or consolidate farms, they will use giant warehouses, used for livestock, and turn it into a church. We actually have a couple drive through churches. You can drive through a part of the church see nativity scenes.

The Midwest sucks. There is a reason why meth was a serious problem here. There is absolutely nothing to do. I think a lot of the conservative shifts have more to do with the fact that government tends to ignore these places entirely. At least these fundamental churches make people feel more alive and active as citizens. I think that if there is a solution to solving boredom, then these churches will lose their influential grip on a lot of rural areas.

the_zombie_luke · Dec 11, 2006

The Experiment said:
I live out in the Midwest.

The Midwest sucks. There is a reason why meth was a serious problem here. There is absolutely nothing to do. I think a lot of the conservative shifts have more to do with the fact that government tends to ignore these places entirely. At least these fundamental churches make people feel more alive and active as citizens. I think that if there is a solution to solving boredom, then these churches will lose their influential grip on a lot of rural areas.

Meth is a huge problem in Wyoming as well as other Western states, and Congress isn't doing jack shit to stop it because they only focus on the eastern states. I think you might be right about boredom being a huge part of it. Also, I bet more people in Wyoming abuse alcohol than a lot of other states. I really like living in Wyoming, but even I have to admit, there's much more to do in Colorado. Somehow Wyoming has to stay "wild" but modernize more. Way off topic, oh well.

Forceatowulf · Dec 11, 2006

As a Christian of 19 years I some how found this disturbing...

SoVos20 · Dec 11, 2006

Forceatowulf said:
As a Christian of 19 years I some how found this disturbing...

The smart thing would be to wake up from your disease. Hopefully this movies sends a shock to mean waning christians and helps cure them of their disease (i.e to accept the fac that god isn't real)

AlanHemberger · Dec 11, 2006

SoVos20 said:
The smart thing would be to wake up from your disease. Hopefully this movies sends a shock to mean waning christians and helps cure them of their disease (i.e to accept the fac that god isn't real)

Hey, I have an idea. How about respecting his beliefs? You're ****ing nuts, man. You post all sorts of inane shit. I refuse to believe that you're not a joke character. If anyone has a disease, it's you. It is possible to be Christian and have a grip on reality. Nice way to stereotype.

Dice · Dec 11, 2006

The Experiment said:
I live out in the Midwest... The Midwest sucks.... There is absolutely nothing to do.

Haha, I'm from central illinois and this is so true. People wonder why so much kickass indie music comes from the midwest, and it's really because we have nothing better to do. I hate it when people online try to label people like us as some hipster puppets because really--we're not following it, we're making it. All that stuff comes from us trying to create something interesting/stylish from the most boring resources. It's the genuine work of our imaginations reaching to find beauty beyond the cornfields, and it's a hell of a lot more noble than resigning to getting wasted. Most people don't get it, and it's not our fault some apple kids in chicago want to capitalize off the trends made down here because our music makes them feel more genuine in the sea of a huge metropolis.

7Th · Dec 11, 2006

SoVos20 said:
The smart thing would be to wake up from your disease. Hopefully this movies sends a shock to mean waning christians and helps cure them of their disease (i.e to accept the fac that god isn't real)

Man, you're ****ing hilarious.
:lol

JayDubya · Dec 11, 2006

SoVos20 said:
The smart thing would be to wake up from your disease. Hopefully this movies sends a shock to mean waning christians and helps cure them of their disease (i.e to accept the fac that god isn't real)

Boy, I sure hope somebody with an AK-47 makes everyone believe the way I do! That's such a healthy way of running things, don't you think?

Dan · Dec 11, 2006

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Moving on...

AntoneM · Dec 12, 2006

Jonm1010 said:
You questioned if this is a concern and i anwserd that it is. With that media also comes a very good new tool for these same closeminded people to push their agenda even further by using all these new means of technology. How many people do you see on youtube comments, other internet comments or anything else still claiming dinosaurs and people lived together or claiming iraq had direct links to al qaida and 911.

The thing you should realize is that the closeminded belief system put into place where they dont question things just believe in them irregardless of the evidence will still be present unless they themselves take it upon them to question their way of absorbing info. So even if they change some beliefs and dismiss some, MOST people never question very much of the heritage they are brought up in and the way it may have influenced other decisions they still havent questioned. and thus since most people arent big on the intracacies of politics, that raised belief to vote one way or another stemming from religous upbringing may ultimatelly push the country into that evangelical or conservative christian agenda. Since as i mentioned that agenda IS the REPUBLICAN parties BASE as they self proclaim and it is whom they advocate for more then any other one group. And when that secondary decision to vote republican because of core religious values isnt questioned you still have a republican voter pushing that agenda. I mean really how many people do you know that have questioned every bit of the beliefs they were brought up into and questioned what role those core beliefs have influenced other beliefs stemming from that core religious upbringing( such as political, social tolerence, parenting, relationships etc). Most still hold those secondary beliefs even after questioning the core beliefs. Because that second part is where i think most people in this country and in the world tend to ignore and never analyze.

No it didnt kill the country then but slowlly our country since the revolution has reverted to ways our founding fathers never intended it too. Not all are the result of attemtps of religous integration but it plays a part and for me and any person who belives in core ideals this country is founded on(The constitution) should be a reason for concern.

You seem rather educated in the politics of this country so I'm going to say YOU know and I know that what I highlighted is bullshit. The Republicans advocate for the corporation above and beyond any religious group.

This is the main reason why I'll never really understand the average Republican in this country. Conservative Christianity is typically anti-capitalist as can be seen with the split between the Vatican I and Vatican II in this nation. And yet, the typical Republican is a conservative christian who repeatedly votes for the politicians that are most in favor of free market capitalism, laissez faire, which takes power away from the blue collar worker, the farmer, and the small businessman. I just can't comprehend it. It make no god damned sense!!!

Barbacoatl · Dec 12, 2006

Those kids are the future of groupsex. Believe.

BocoDragon · Dec 12, 2006

max_cool said:
You seem rather educated in the politics of this country so I'm going to say YOU know and I know that what I highlighted is bullshit. The Republicans advocate for the corporation above and beyond any religious group.

This is the main reason why I'll never really understand the average Republican in this country. Conservative Christianity is typically anti-capitalist as can be seen with the split between the Vatican I and Vatican II in this nation. And yet, the typical Republican is a conservative christian who repeatedly votes for the politicians that are most in favor of free market capitalism, laissez faire, which takes power away from the blue collar worker, the farmer, and the small businessman. I just can't comprehend it. It make no god damned sense!!!

Conservative Christianity isn't anti-capitalist whatsoever. Where did you get that? American protestantism is the most pro-capitalist group on this planet, and by definition, few give a crap about the Vatican (few American Christians are catholics, they are protestant)

I don't know what Christians are "supposed" to believe based on theology: But America's right wing power base specifically happens to be very Christian and happens to be very capitalist.

The republican way is: Money and religion. There is no split in ideology. Some Christians like to interpret the Bible as anti-capitalist, and then perceive a split between what Christianity is "really" all about and what the Repulicans are doing, but I assure you that they themselves percieve no such split. It doesn't matter what the Pope thinks Christ is about (America is not Catholic) or what liberals think Christ should be about. Love God and Love Money. They believe that their mandate is to do both, and I see no conflict in their agenda.

Synbios459 · Dec 12, 2006

You make a very good point experiment, I never thought of that before. I live in Oklahoma but visited a friend in Tampa Florida and I would give ANYTHING to move there.

Piper Az · Dec 12, 2006

Yes, some of the portrayals in this clip were disturbing (very-young kids crying, a man speaking of evangelicals in politics), but other than those, it wasn't anything extraordinary of a religious culture. Chrisitians (esp. emotional evangelicals) love Jesus (as any other religious people love their gods), and living around folks who share that same belief/love and bonding with them is perfectly natural. It may look alike some brain-washing cult to non-believers, but that's what I think is incorrect.

Religion isn't for everyone. It works for some folks, it doesn't for others.

NomarTyme · Dec 12, 2006

robojimbo said:
Every time I see this thread title I read it as "Jesse Camp... ugh."

Same here!:lol

sprsk · Dec 12, 2006

You people have me seeing Jesse Camp also. I hate you.

Although him being a VJ on mtv was probably one of the greatest pranks ever.

unifin · Dec 12, 2006

Whoa - how did I miss this thread?

Scary stuff (the camp, of course).

White Man · Dec 12, 2006

sp0rsk said:
You people have me seeing Jesse Camp also. I hate you.

Although him being a VJ on mtv was probably one of the greatest pranks ever.

From wiki:

In late 2006, he was reportedly working at a Los Angeles-area pet supply store.

sprsk · Dec 12, 2006

White Man said:
From wiki:

No doubt eating all the dog food.

unifin · Dec 12, 2006

Just finished reading a bunch about the film, and this shit is ridiculous.

You don't scream at little kids - you don't polarize them at such an age.

I was raised in a household where my mother specifically avoided going to evangelical churches - we went to an Episcopal school.

Thankfully, my parents let me find my own faith for myself... this Jesus Camp stuff is just pure brainwashing, unadulerated and disgusting.

It's almost a complete upturning of what Jesus was trying to accomplish - these camps not only turn people into unloving, intolerant, close-minded people, but also drive other people away from God.

Holy cow. Can't believe these people call themselves Christians.

Ikael · Dec 12, 2006

How anyone can assume that Jesus fanatics are "flourishing" in America is beyond me. This is one documentary. I'm sure there's tons of Jesus indoctrination going on in rural areas and Southern States, but there's also a sizable white supremist community around the US and around the world, and someone can make a documentary following the many gatherings of hundreds and thousands that they have. Doesn't mean it's flourishing.

First of all: such a thing shouldn't even exist, in any plane of existance. The fact that it exist in one of the countries which has pionered democracy and separation between church and state, and that that is prosperous makes it extremely shocking, although I recognice that the term "flourish" has been hyperbolic.

No, I am not going to say that there's no religious extremism in Europe, heck, I am from Spain and we have the Opus Dei here but holy freaking crap, this camp beats the crap out of the hardcorest religious fanatics that I have seen, seriously. This is yihad level of fanatism, and done by occidentals. This is what shocks me. It looks... surreal.

Jesus fanatics in the extreme sense exist, but they certainly aren't the majority in the US or even a majority of people that go to church.

Hmmm, if a 25% of Americans consider theirselves Evangelists, that's a really worring slice of the population. And the "well, they are not as nuts as the guys of Jesus Camp, hey, at least the majority of them doesn't think that Harry Potter is satanic" is unintentionally hylarious. To think that atheists are not belonging to the country (Bush dixit) or that the world is 6000 years old and evolution didn't existed or that Bush was "chosen by God" is not "normal" by any stretch of the imagination, no matter how extended it is or how respectable and socially accepted is. It is still nuts, medieval and ****tarded even if it is not "Jesus camp level of fanatism".

choc_cake · Dec 12, 2006

I think a lot of people are overreacting with this. Yes, I watched it and I can see how you can think of it as disturbing.

I will tell you how you see and and then I will explain what is really going on.

You may think of it this way:

They are teaching kids to be murders and they are brainwashing these kids to go nuts and they are using their power to corupt and give them false information instead of teaching them science and think for themselves.

This is the way it really is:

They are teaching these kids that Satan (not people) are the enemy. When Christians talk about the enemy they are not talking about any person, but the devil himself and to put on the armour of God (which is reading the Bible and memorized verses so that you will not fall in the traps of life).

You may think they are brainwashing them, but they are trying to teach them positive things and that they can make a difference and to love people and not hate them. This is much better than being brainwashed by the KKK or liberal school systems pushing their own agendas.

These kids are still taught Science. Science is important and must be taught of course.
However, not everything is fact, some things are theories.

My opinion:

When I went to Public high school and graduated in 1987 there were no guns in school and there were no metal detectors. We didn't have soda machines. Rapes and murders were unheard of. Well today the public school system is a waste and I would never send my kids to that kind of punishment.

We had jocks, nerds, burnouts (smoked pot sometimes and took speed and mainly got detention), and the rest of the school. They had bussed kids from the intercity and I became friends with some of them and that is how I got online.

Kids today are not taught much beyond the basics. Religion is no longer taught, art and music is taught a lot less and military has been taken out of school as well. I am not happy with the public school system today and even advanced physics and science are a waste for the most part.

Look at the great stats of the Los Angeles school system. uggh!

Barf_the_Mog · Dec 12, 2006

choc_cake said:
These kids are still taught Science. Science is important and must be taught of course.
However, not everything is fact, some things are theories.

Oh boy. I think I know where this is going

AntoneM · Dec 12, 2006

BocoDragon said:
Conservative Christianity isn't anti-capitalist whatsoever. Where did you get that? American protestantism is the most pro-capitalist group on this planet, and by definition, few give a crap about the Vatican (few American Christians are catholics, they are protestant)

I don't know what Christians are "supposed" to believe based on theology: But America's right wing power base specifically happens to be very Christian and happens to be very capitalist.

The republican way is: Money and religion. There is no split in ideology. Some Christians like to interpret the Bible as anti-capitalist, and then perceive a split between what Christianity is "really" all about and what the Repulicans are doing, but I assure you that they themselves percieve no such split. It doesn't matter what the Pope thinks Christ is about (America is not Catholic) or what liberals think Christ should be about. Love God and Love Money. They believe that their mandate is to do both, and I see no conflict in their agenda.

Excuse me for using the largest, by far, denomination of chritstianity in the US as the example. It's the best I could use since saying Protestant encompasses dozens of different beliefs. The point still stands that there is a cognitive dissonance in the typical Republican voting, Christian, blue collar American.

Dan · Dec 12, 2006

choc_cake said:
I think a lot of people are overreacting with this. Yes, I watched it and I can see how you can think of it as disturbing.

I will tell you how you see and and then I will explain what is really going on.

You may think of it this way:

They are teaching kids to be murders and they are brainwashing these kids to go nuts and they are using their power to corupt and give them false information instead of teaching them science and think for themselves.

This is the way it really is:

They are teaching these kids that Satan (not people) are the enemy. When Christians talk about the enemy they are not talking about any person, but the devil himself and to put on the armour of God (which is reading the Bible and memorized verses so that you will not fall in the traps of life).

You may think they are brainwashing them, but they are trying to teach them positive things and that they can make a difference and to love people and not hate them. This is much better than being brainwashed by the KKK or liberal school systems pushing their own agendas.

These kids are still taught Science. Science is important and must be taught of course.
However, not everything is fact, some things are theories.

My opinion:

When I went to Public high school and graduated in 1987 there were no guns in school and there were no metal detectors. We didn't have soda machines. Rapes and murders were unheard of. Well today the public school system is a waste and I would never send my kids to that kind of punishment.

We had jocks, nerds, burnouts (smoked pot sometimes and took speed and mainly got detention), and the rest of the school. They had bussed kids from the intercity and I became friends with some of them and that is how I got online.

Kids today are not taught much beyond the basics. Religion is no longer taught, art and music is taught a lot less and military has been taken out of school as well. I am not happy with the public school system today and even advanced physics and science are a waste for the most part.

Look at the great stats of the Los Angeles school system. uggh!

O_O

There is soooooo much wrong with that post.

So you think public education is not only contributing to what amounts to the downfall of American society, but that it's an utter waste? On top of that, you believe the way to correct our school system is to teach religion, some kind of military presence and less science? WTF.

I'm not even going to touch the idea that you believe this kind of camp is actually teaching love and not hate. That is absolutely ridiculous.

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