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Blizzard announces STARCRAFT 2

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I

IcedTea

Member
Danne-Danger said:
Ever played Company of Heroes? Extensive use of AI interaction with the environment and a large emphasis on realism when it comes to cover and unit behaviour. That, for me, is new gen RTS (though I won’t rule out SC2 yet, we’ve still only seen what, ~5-6 minutes of gameplay?) .
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Starcraft I had stuff like that (higher ground = better defense, same with hiding behind objects like trees). Taking things that were done 10 years ago and having the AI do it for you is 'next gen'?
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Totally awesome :D :D

I suppose it's a good thing that they're not prematurely committing to a release date..but I hope it's 08, it has to be I guess.
 
H

Howard Alan Treesong

Member
Danne-Danger said:
Ever played Company of Heroes? Extensive use of AI interaction with the environment and a large emphasis on realism when it comes to cover and unit behaviour. That, for me, is new gen RTS (though I won’t rule out SC2 yet, we’ve still only seen what, ~5-6 minutes of gameplay?) . Ever since TA this whole rock-paper-scissors principle has felt kinda... old. That said, I see RPS-style having it's perks as well, though I tend to lean more towards unpredictable and IMO more realistic battles.
Click to expand...

Company of Heroes is totally awesome, of course. But "unpredictable" and "competitive league play" don't really go together. SC2 is clearly being designed not just as a game, but as a sport--a sport that can be enjoyed casually or intensely, just like basketball can be played as a pickup game at the Y, or professionally in the NBA.

As Frag so logically laid out for us, Starcraft is not Supcom for a number of reasons. It has its own niche, and it intends to fill it well.
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
Danne-Danger said:
Ever played Company of Heroes? Extensive use of AI interaction with the environment and a large emphasis on realism when it comes to cover, unit behaviour and ballistics. That, for me, is new gen RTS (though I won’t rule out SC2 yet, we’ve still only seen what, ~5-6 minutes of gameplay?). Ever since TA this whole rock-paper-scissors principle has felt kinda... old. That said, I see RPS-style having it's perks as well, though I tend to lean more towards unpredictable and IMO more realistic battles.

Did I dodge that one OK?
Click to expand...

A lot of the new stuff in RTS is visually cool, and maybe more realistic, but it's not more fun. It feels automated. Units being groups and taking cover is nice to look at but it doesn't make it any more fun. You still only watch them shoot at each other, only it takes longer for you to see the result now. In Sup Com you can queue up so much stuff it feels like you're just watching a base build itself. That plus both these games run like crap on the average PC gamer's computer.
 
K

Kodiak

Not an asshole.
Kinda blows that there aren't any new races... I really enjoyed following and playing the new additions to Warcraft 3.

But a super refined, 3-D version of starcraft is still extremely welcome, and I'm sure the singleplayer will be exceptional, I always thought SC was their best universe.

And I'm proud of GAF for the surprising lack of "lol Starcraft 1.5/ Starcraft HD"

Today is going to be a good day.
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
Synthesizer Patel said:
Company of Heroes is totally awesome, of course. But "unpredictable" and "competitive league play" don't really go together. SC2 is clearly being designed not just as a game, but as a sport--a sport that can be enjoyed casually or intensely, just like basketball can be played as a pickup game at the Y, or professionally in the NBA.

As Frag so logically laid out for us, Starcraft is not Supcom for a number of reasons. It has its own niche, and it intends to fill it well.
Click to expand...

Actually I would say SupCom has it's niche, while Starcraft will dominate the mass market.
 
C

Comic

Member
Danne-Danger said:
Ever played Company of Heroes? Extensive use of AI interaction with the environment and a large emphasis on realism when it comes to cover, unit behaviour and ballistics. That, for me, is new gen RTS (though I won’t rule out SC2 yet, we’ve still only seen what, ~5-6 minutes of gameplay?). Ever since TA this whole rock-paper-scissors principle has felt kinda... old. That said, I see RPS-style having it's perks as well, though I tend to lean more towards unpredictable and IMO more realistic battles.

Did I dodge that one OK?
Click to expand...

You did fine :p I actually haven't played Company of Heroes, or any very recent RTS for that matter. I was just playing on the sentiment that just because it isn't a huge improvement doesn't mean it's still a great improvement.
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
Kodiak said:
Kinda blows that there aren't any new races... I really enjoyed following and playing the new additions to Warcraft 3.

But a super refined, 3-D version of starcraft is still extremely welcome, and I'm sure the singleplayer will be exceptional, I always thought SC was their best universe.

And I'm proud of GAF for the surprising lack of "lol Starcraft 1.5/ Starcraft HD"

Today is going to be a good day.
Click to expand...

Have you not been reading this thread? Not using those exact words, a few trolls have been saying those exact things.
 
N

n0b

Member
I saw the big battle scene first and it didnt really look interesting, but then seeing all of the new units in the other vids totally changed my mind. Looks like it will be even more intense than the original was.

Seriously though, I don't see how anyone thought we would see anything but SC2 announced in Korea. And World of Starcraft? They would have murdered the presenters for doing that to the series.
 
O

OtwoloBotawa

Banned
IcedTea said:
Starcraft I had stuff like that (higher ground = better defense, same with hiding behind objects like trees). Taking things that were done 10 years ago and having the AI do it for you is 'next gen'?
Click to expand...
CoH has seamless height levels, simulated ballistics and real "cover" that isn't just a stat upgrade for the units.
That wasn't in starcaft 1, in warcraft 3 and it most probably won't be in starcraft 2, from the looks of it.
 
W

White Man

Member
Danne-Danger said:
Ever played Company of Heroes? Extensive use of AI interaction with the environment and a large emphasis on realism when it comes to cover, unit behaviour and ballistics. That, for me, is new gen RTS (though I won’t rule out SC2 yet, we’ve still only seen what, ~5-6 minutes of gameplay?). Ever since TA this whole rock-paper-scissors principle has felt kinda... old. That said, I see RPS-style having it's perks as well, though I tend to lean more towards unpredictable and IMO more realistic battles.

Did I dodge that one OK?
Click to expand...

First off, I looooooooooooove CoH, but sometimes I think it's got a little too much depth for its own good. C&C3? I can play it drunk. SupCom and CoH? No. Starcraft? Yes. It's got more depth than C&C but retains the fast, crack-like multiplayer. It is not as complicated as the other two, but still retains a level of depth when it comes to planning assaults.

It's a happy medium, really.
 
KyanMehwulfe

KyanMehwulfe

Member
White Man (02:46 AM) said:
OtwoloBotawa, could you tone down your trolling like a half dozen notches? You have shit-talked just about every aspect of a game that was just announced 4 hours ago and that we know very, very little about. I'm all for criticizing the game (I'm a bit less than thrilled), but there really isn't enough info out there to validly complain yet.
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OtwoloBotawa (02:47 AM) said:
Blizzard RTS are as much fun as grinding in MMORPGs. It's an acquired taste.
Click to expand...
Hmmm I don't think that's exactly what he meant.....
 
KyanMehwulfe

KyanMehwulfe

Member
Danne-Danger said:
Ever played Company of Heroes? Extensive use of AI interaction with the environment and a large emphasis on realism when it comes to cover, unit behaviour and ballistics. That, for me, is new gen RTS (though I won’t rule out SC2 yet, we’ve still only seen what, ~5-6 minutes of gameplay?). Ever since TA this whole rock-paper-scissors principle has felt kinda... old. That said, I see RPS-style having it's perks as well, though I tend to lean more towards unpredictable and IMO more realistic battles.
Did I dodge that one OK?
Click to expand...
You know, COH is awesome. I loved it in beta and at release, and I've began to appreciate its tactical depth even more recently.

But COH is not SC. Not even remotely. Nor should SC try to be even remotely similar to COH.

It's like when C&C3 was being demoed. Great game. Was it amazing? A big new step? Nope. But folks were happy because it captured the original feel of C&C. Was its cover system even remotely on par with COH's? Not at all. But that was the point. If it was, it would of changed the game too much.

Let COHx or COH2 take that sort of gameplay to the next level. We don't need SC2 for that.
 
I

IcedTea

Member
OtwoloBotawa said:
CoH has seamless height levels, simulated ballistics and real "cover" that isn't just a stat upgrade for the units.
That wasn't in starcaft 1, in warcraft 3 and it most probably won't be in starcraft 2, from the looks of it.
Click to expand...
Okay... I'll take a fun game over a game that has simulated ballistics and real cover (as opposed to pretend cover that only upgrades your stats). I can see why you would prefer simulated ballistics over fun though.
 
C

Cronox

Banned
Ok, since I didn't realize the discussion had moved here I'll repost what I said in the "Blizzard teases" thread.

One thing that concerns me: since every unit (even Zealots...) seem to have a secondary function, does this mean that Blizzard is making the game more "micro" based?

It's alright if a unit's only function is to attack... Especially basic units like Zealots or Dragoons (now under a different name I suppose).
 
O

OtwoloBotawa

Banned
Zzoram said:
So why isn't OtwoloBotawa banned for excessive trolling?
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Because having a different opinion about a game that guys like you are way too much hyped up about to discuss it objectively isn't exessive trolling.
Also: Don't derail the thread - get over the fact that some people might not be as excited about starcraft 2 as you are and like to comment on it too.
 
M

Monk

Banned
OtwoloBotawa said:
Blizzard RTS are as much fun as grinding in MMORPGs. It's an acquired taste.
Click to expand...

I am trying to see the correlation here. I suppose it can be true if you restrice yourself to one map and play against the computer. But other than that you would be wrong.

I think There was only one real flaw with SC and WC3 games and that is that microing could be a little bit more accessible. You pretty much had to memorise all of a units hotkeys to properly micro. And if you arent willing to put much time into it to learn them then you are doomed against other players.
 
E

ElAlcesDiablo

Member
Blizzard's SC2 FAQ said:
How many races are in StarCraft II?

In StarCraft II, players will see the return of the Protoss, Terran, and Zerg races. Our goal is to ensure that all the factions in the game play even more distinctly from one another than in the original StarCraft, while still maintaining the fine balance that helped make StarCraft such a classic. We're also introducing a number of new units to each race, as well as modifying some of the familiar units returning in StarCraft II. With these design refinements and the new features we have planned for the single-player and multiplayer elements of the game, StarCraft II will offer a next-generation StarCraft experience.
Click to expand...

They don't actually answer the question there...
 
D

Deku

Banned
Cronox said:
Ok, since I didn't realize the discussion had moved here I'll repost what I said in the "Blizzard teases" thread.

One thing that concerns me: since every unit (even Zealots...) seem to have a secondary function, does this mean that Blizzard is making the game more "micro" based?

It's alright if a unit's only function is to attack... Especially basic units like Zealots or Dragoons (now under a different name I suppose).
Click to expand...

You mean the immortals? That's a new unit.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'secondary' function. They just expanded the scope of the RPS system to include defenses against Seige Tanks, Zerglings and added units to counter those.
 
W

White Man

Member
OtwoloBotawa said:
Because having a different opinion about a game that guys like you are way too much hyped up about to discuss it objectively isn't exessive trolling.
Also: Don't derail the thread - get over the fact that some people might not be as excited about starcraft 2 as you are and like to comment on it too.
Click to expand...

But you aren't objectively judging it. You are comparing it to a game it has no intention of being, not that you know many gameplay details.
 
N

NeoCross

Member
OtwoloBotawa said:
CoH has seamless height levels, simulated ballistics and real "cover" that isn't just a stat upgrade for the units.
That wasn't in starcaft 1, in warcraft 3 and it most probably won't be in starcraft 2, from the looks of it.
Click to expand...
Who the hell cares. StarCraft still blow CoH out of the water gameplay wise.
 
D

Danne-Danger

Member
KyanMehwulfe said:
You know, COH is awesome. I loved it in beta and at release, and I've began to appreciate its tactical depth even more recently.

But COH is not SC. Not even remotely. Nor should SC try to be even remotely similar to COH.

It's like when C&C3 was being demoed. Great game. Was it amazing? A big new step? Nope. But folks were happy because it captured the original feel of C&C. Was its cover system even remotely on par with COH's? Not at all. But that was the point. If it was, it would of changed the game too much.

Let COHx or COH2 take that sort of gameplay to the next level. We don't need SC2 for that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, and I guess it's just as appiable to SC as it is to something like Street Fighter. They're both best at what they do and there's no real reason to stray of the path. If it ain't broke don't fix it, so to speak.
 
KyanMehwulfe

KyanMehwulfe

Member
Deku said:
You mean the immortals? That's a new unit.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'secondary' function. They just expanded the scope of the RPS system to include defenses against Seige Tanks, Zerglings and added units to counter those.
Click to expand...
You know, I still see Role Playing Strategy when I see "RPS".

By which I mean the sub-genre title Blizzard chose for Warcraft 3 originally when it was more of a personal RPGesque rts with more realistic scale and a Ground Control-esque camera system.

Anyone remember that original WC3-RPS preview on GameSpot back in... 2000, I think it was? The troll headhunter who could see heat signatures in the snow to track, the raid on the human camp, the Blademaster and then the frozen bridge leading to the massive frost wyrm?

Makes me nostalgic for the inevitable first previews of Starcraft 2.
 
W

White Man

Member
TekunoRobby said:
Lead Designer on StarCraft 2 is Dustin Browder.

Moby Games listing:
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,2347/

His track record seems to have a few hits. His last two RTS games are C&C Generals and LotR: BfME. Wasn't exactly a fan of either game but I did love Red Alert 2.
Click to expand...

Generals and BfME are both decent games. Generals is particularly unfairly maligned. Having the SC template, along with Blizzard's excellent quality control will probably make sure he ships something great.
 
T

TheDarkKnight774

Member
KyanMehwulfe said:
You know, I still see Role Playing Strategy when I see "RPS".

By which I mean the sub-genre title Blizzard chose for Warcraft 3 originally when it was more of a personal RPGesque rts with more realistic scale and a Ground Control-esque camera system.

Anyone remember that original WC3-RPS preview on GameSpot back in... 2000, I think it was? The troll headhunter who could see heat signatures in the snow to track, the raid on the human camp, the Blademaster and then the frozen bridge leading to the massive frost wyrm?

Makes me nostalgic for the inevitable first previews of Starcraft 2.
Click to expand...

I do. It was essentially going to be a hero and a small pack of guys roaming around doing things, and leveling up? Some of the details are vague

In a way it was very unBlizzard like. Part of their success in everything they do is they don't go too out there with their games, or take too big of risks

Then after a long period of silence it returned as a more traditional game
 
Z

Zzoram

Member
gketter said:
I do. They essentially went back and redesigned the whole game for WC3. It was essentially going to be a hero and a small pack of guys roaming around doing things, and leveling up? Some of the details are vague

In a way it was very unBlizzard like. Part of their success in everything they do is they don't go too out there with their games, or take too big of risks

Then after a long period of silence it returned as a more traditional game
Click to expand...

Well the roving party of units + hero was still how a lot of the single player was, but it was probably too hard to make that into a good multiplayer game without the base building.
 
K

KTallguy

Banned
I love COH, but I'm glad that SC2 is going to stick to it's core, fast paced gameplay. I hope that Blizzard played COH and understood what makes it so great, and maybe was influenced by it a little, but the core needs to stay the same for SC2.

Both games can coexist, both of them have awesome, unique styles.
 
P

Pureauthor

Member
first-istarcraft-iii-screens-and-images-20070519001346382.jpg


That a Protoss? The headcrest...
 
T

TheDarkKnight774

Member
Zzoram said:
Well the roving party of units + hero was still how a lot of the single player was, but it was probably too hard to make that into a good multiplayer game without the base building.
Click to expand...

True, the hero still remained, i still remember reading the game previews at first and scratching my head. I don't think there even was much in the way of building bases or resource management, etc. Like i said i'm hazy on the details
 
KyanMehwulfe

KyanMehwulfe

Member
TekunoRobby said:
Lead Designer on StarCraft 2 is Dustin Browder.
Moby Games listing:
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,2347/
His track record seems to have a few hits. His last two RTS games are C&C Generals and LotR: BfME. Wasn't exactly a fan of either game but I did love Red Alert 2.
Click to expand...
The question is: What's Pardo's role?

His work on Starcraft puds was what really carved out his position at Blizzard and his beta mp presence in regards to the community. He was the biggest public hint toward SC2's development too; a fair while back the WoW CMs admitted that Pardo had his role reduced massively because he was working on a different project more heavily. In hindsight I expected far more people to cite it over the last year or two in SC2 rumor topics, but it was pretty telling all along imo.

Hard to say if he's still got his knack though. TFT beta balancing didn't go too great--it was decent enough but it was certainly no SC--and then a few years of MMO design can have a lasting impact. Even myself as an armchair general; the way I look at RTS design, which still decent, is incredibly lacking now after being out of the game for so long for basically a purely MMO tenure for the last fair while.
 
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