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Digital Foundry PS4 Pro Launch Coverage Begins

Sony employee talks about Pro on this podcast.

https://youtu.be/n45vdR4CqRQ?t=1h54m35s

His twitter page has pics and video https://twitter.com/Darkcloud25

89HANHg.gif


summary:

-can't tell the difference between checkerboard 4K and native 4K unless you're practically kissing your tv, it's that good

-had PS4 Pro on for ~8 hours straight with Infinite Warfare running, no heating problems and it was super quiet the entire time.
couldn't even hear the fan until putting phone (what he was recording with) behind the system.

-he "can't say" if there will be a Bloodborne patch or not (so there may be a chance?)
 

Cyborg

Member
This thread and DF... damn! The games will look better and run better so for me thats a win. Day one for me 😎
 

deadduck

Member
Show me a practical example of something going from a smaller resolution to a lagrer one by not scaling. I don't think you people understand what the word "scale" means.

You've been trying to associate linear scaling (like a tv/bluray upscaler) and checkerboard, the two are vastly different.

A bit like advances in different anti-aliasing developments and techniques, we don't define them all as 'blur'.
 
summary:

-can't tell the difference between checkerboard 4K and native 4K unless you're practically kissing your tv, it's that good

-had PS4 Pro on for ~8 hours straight with Infinite Warfare running, no heating problems and it was super quiet the entire time.
couldn't even hear the fan until putting phone (what he was recording with) behind the system.

-he "can't say" if there will be a Bloodborne patch or not (so there may be a chance?)
I wish I hadn't read this. I'm dumb enough to let this get my hopes up.
 

black070

Member
I wish I hadn't read this. I'm dumb enough to let this get my hopes up.

There's nothing stopping them from going back and patching a game post-launch, then again.. do I really want to be roped into playing through it for a third time ? The backlog is stacked up high as it is !
 
@dark10x

Would it be possible to spend a paragraph on which chroma we should use for P4Pro with 4k TV ?

I'm starting to get confused myself so I'm guessing it must be total mumbo jumbo for non hardware enthusiast :)
 
If it hasn't been announced by now, then it is most likely not going to happen and if it does I predict a 4K resolution bump and HDR patch and thats it.

All the stuff announced is for launch period - we don't know anything if there will be more patches later down the road or will we only get support in new games.
 

DOWN

Banned
Why do a lot of people on GAF keep acting like the checkerboard technique is disappointing and full of artifacts when most reports from the show floors say that without direct comparison to native, it seems incredibly hard If even possible to spot any defects at viewing distance and identify IQ issues attributable to something beyond the game's own characteristics?
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
If it hasn't been announced by now, then it is most likely not going to happen and if it does I predict a 4K resolution bump and HDR patch and thats it.



2. If the Pro does well, I'm sure we will see many patches come about. Especially because Pro users will be more likely to buy games with Pro Enhancments. It's way to early for "if it hasn't been announced by now" posts.


1. There's no such thing as "just" or "that's it" when it comes to 4K and HDR being patched in. The 4K alone is completely transformative. Even on a 1080p display. The difference in IQ is staggering.
 

Sesuadra

Unconfirmed Member
Why do a lot of people on GAF keep acting like the checkerboard technique is disappointing and full of artifacts when most reports from the show floors say that without direct comparison to native, it seems incredibly hard If even possible to spot any defects at viewing distance and identify IQ issues attributable to something beyond the game's own characteristics?

b/c..I don't know..they want it to be shit, or they are cynics. Maybe they're out for blood, some people always need something to rage over..?

2. If the Pro does well, I'm sure we will see many patches come about. Especially because Pro users will be more likely to buy games with Pro Enhancments. It's way to early for "if it hasn't been announced by now" posts.
.
I was just thinking, even the smallest kind of effort for an old game could give it a push again in sales. If what Cerny said is true and patching a game is really so easy to do of course.
Gaming sites would report it, people would see it and maybe buy it.
 

black070

Member
Why do a lot of people on GAF keep acting like the checkerboard technique is disappointing and full of artifacts when most reports from the show floors say that without direct comparison to native, it seems incredibly hard If even possible to spot any defects at viewing distance and identify IQ issues attributable to something beyond the game's own characteristics?

Just people being purposefully naive and hurling shit at a wall hoping something sticks.

The Pro is an ambitious piece of hardware offering an experience that many wouldn't think possible from the specs and price point. The Scorpio looks to continue on that, which makes me happy as a console gamer. It's going to be a good gen.
 
89HANHg.gif


summary:

-can't tell the difference between checkerboard 4K and native 4K unless you're practically kissing your tv, it's that good

-had PS4 Pro on for ~8 hours straight with Infinite Warfare running, no heating problems and it was super quiet the entire time.
couldn't even hear the fan until putting phone (what he was recording with) behind the system.

-he "can't say" if there will be a Bloodborne patch or not (so there may be a chance?)

Leadbetter from Digital Foundry pretty much said the same thing so it's not an exaggeration. The tech expert from Gamespot made a similar observation.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Ps4 was £ 100 cheaper than xb1 at launch, they could of easily upped the CPU Ghz closer to 2, a bigger box, a nice cooler and maybe 20-30 % more GPU and slapped on 50 bucks - hands down winner.

Ps3 was a disaster as it was more expensive AND it did not run many games as good as 360. If Ps3 has a good GPU and smahed 360, the price would of been justified, but it was a crap design for the price. Last gen I had both, and 360 worked so much better on multiplat.

Anyway, back on topic, Pro is a fair design choice if there was no way for Sony to squeeze a zen in and shoot for 60 fps.

Sony had a price they wanted to hit. They wouldn't have known MS were going that high on price before everything was locked down. Also the APU was probably as big as it was practical to go on a 28nm process - Sony used the space for GPU, MS for embedded Ram. Both are similar size.
 

//DEVIL//

Member
I honestly don't understand people here sometimes

Regardless if you can tell the difference between checkerboard or native, this is Sony latest console . It doesn't really matter how much it's more powerful people will buy it because of its exclusive library . Not because it can render 4k native or not.

Next year the new xbox will be more powerful . And 1 or 2 years later Sony will release the ps5 or whatever it's called.

Stop following power. You will buy a console every year if not more.

Personally I am picking this because it has exclusives I can't play on PC. Same reason why I am buying a Nintendo console.

Who knows if I will buy a Scorpio. I have a super awesome i7 with gtx 1080. So that console is wait and see for me. If they didn't announce the play anywhere I would be buying the Scorpio in a heartbeat too because they also have good gsmes.

No need to shit on every thread x console sucks because (drop list) Buy the console for its games. Not the hardware or brand name behind it people . Jesus
 

score01

Member
Go ahead and hype checkerboard as much as you want; it won't change the fact that it is not native and only upscaling.

It's definately not native but it isn't upscaling either. Upscaling is a linear transformation used to enlarge. There is no scaling or enlargement happening in the checkerboard process itself. Checkerboard uses two frames of alternate pixels and some snazzy algorithms to reconstruct the final 4K image. No scaling involved unless the final image is less than 4K. 1800p checkerboard would use scaling to achieve 4K, which would be a part upscale picture (1800p -> 2160p). 2160p checkerboard would not.
 

Theonik

Member
Speaking of the breakout box for VR I wish sony did a dual hdmi out for the pro. Would solve some of ots HDR woes and also let people use older avrs for audio.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
@dark10x

Would it be possible to spend a paragraph on which chroma we should use for P4Pro with 4k TV ?

I'm starting to get confused myself so I'm guessing it must be total mumbo jumbo for non hardware enthusiast :)

I'd second this. Especially if there are reasons to wait to buy a TV - are we expecting 10 bit 4:4:4 4K HDR in 2017 TVs with a new HDMI standard? Is it likely to make a big difference?

If not, I'm likely to buy a discounted set this year (likely one of Sony xd800, Sony XD93, Samsung ks7000, lg b6/c6)
 

Theonik

Member
Even if such a set were to be the ps4 pro wouldn't support it due to limited bandwidth. New hdmi standard should also miss the Scorpio. PC is your only bet.
 
Why do a lot of people on GAF keep acting like the checkerboard technique is disappointing and full of artifacts when most reports from the show floors say that without direct comparison to native, it seems incredibly hard If even possible to spot any defects at viewing distance and identify IQ issues attributable to something beyond the game's own characteristics?

Because alot of people dont want it to be true.
 

wapplew

Member
Why do a lot of people on GAF keep acting like the checkerboard technique is disappointing and full of artifacts when most reports from the show floors say that without direct comparison to native, it seems incredibly hard If even possible to spot any defects at viewing distance and identify IQ issues attributable to something beyond the game's own characteristics?

Because anything not native is blurry mess. /s
 

Plasma

Banned
Because anything not native is blurry mess. /s
To be fair this gen it is pretty noticeable when games aren't running at 1080P and are being upscaled so you can understand people's scepticism. Kudos to Sony though if it is hard to tell the difference, I wonder if they could implement the same technique for the base PS4 so when games are sub 1080 they'll look better.
 

geordiemp

Member
Sony had a price they wanted to hit. They wouldn't have known MS were going that high on price before everything was locked down. Also the APU was probably as big as it was practical to go on a 28nm process - Sony used the space for GPU, MS for embedded Ram. Both are similar size.

You got to admit the space for and attention to cooling on OG Ps4 is non existent compared to the Xb1 OG which has similar or even bigger die size and a higher clock. Put OG Ps4 in an Xb1 chasis and you could go ham with clocks.

It always seems with just that little bit more focus on performance so many games would have ran without dips or issues (witcher 3 and GTA 5 come to mind).

Anyway, my Pro comes next Thursday - woop
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Leadbetter from Digital Foundry pretty much said the same thing so it's not an exaggeration. The tech expert from Gamespot made a similar observation.
I agree as well based on my time.

When standing still, Infinite Warfare (which is still the only one I've seen myself) looked native. Each and every pixel lined up with each pixel on the 4K display. It looks 100% native.

The compromises appear in motion where you can see mild artefacts that reveal a loss in detail. From a normal viewing distance, this all but disappears.

Two things "help" - flat panels still aren't as fast as CRT televisions when displaying 60hz content. Even black frame insertion isn't enough on models which support it. This extra blur, even when minor, helps conceal these artefacts.

Secondly, with post processing in use, the issues can be covered up pretty easily as well.

It's quite convincing, to say the least.

Because anything not native is blurry mess. /s
I have two things to say to that.

For one thing - checkerboarding, based on what I've seen, does not introduce blur. Pixels are razor sharp and can appear native. That won't be the case with every game, however.

...but more importantly, the pixel density of a 4K panel is SO high that native resolution starts to matter a whole lot less. I've tested this so many times with PC games. Running at 1440p on a 4K screen, the results are still incredibly clean and sharp. I generally sit between 5-6ft from my 55" display, for the record.

Upscale blur is a huge issue at lower resolutions but once you cross the 1080p barrier on a 4K display, the results are very good.
 
To be fair this gen it is pretty noticeable when games aren't running at 1080P and are being upscaled so you can understand people's scepticism. Kudos to Sony though if it is hard to tell the difference, I wonder if they could implement the same technique for the base PS4 so when games are sub 1080 they'll look better.

They used it for killzone MP. The benefit the PRO have is deadicated hardware for checkerboard rendering that the original do not.
 

geordiemp

Member
They used it for killzone MP. The benefit the PRO have is deadicated hardware for checkerboard rendering that the original do not.

Killzone was awful for me, just felt heavy and unresponsive to control and play for a shooter - I wonder if the devs software checkerboard temporal work on Killzone hindered the games responsiveness and the pro hardware solution is just better ?
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Killzone was awful for me, just felt heavy and unresponsive to control and play for a shooter - I wonder if the devs software checkerboard temporal work on Killzone hindered the games responsiveness and the pro hardware solution is just better ?
Unrelated.
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Optional, like every pro upgrade.

The only real requirement the Pro games have is the need to hit at least 1080p resolution.

So even if the dev don't want to invest time and people on 4K/HDR/framerate, they HAVE to at least render at native 1080p.
 

Koobion

Member
Thanks for your input, John. I'm so anxiously awaiting DF's analysis videos - especially regarding SSD benefits.

Also, DF Retro is the best.
 

goonergaz

Member
Why do a lot of people on GAF keep acting like the checkerboard technique is disappointing and full of artifacts when most reports from the show floors say that without direct comparison to native, it seems incredibly hard If even possible to spot any defects at viewing distance and identify IQ issues attributable to something beyond the game's own characteristics?

Because it's true (if you're standing 12" from a 65" TV) ;)
 
Thanks for your input, John. I'm so anxiously awaiting DF's analysis videos - especially regarding SSD benefits.

Also, DF Retro is the best.

Speaking of DF Retro. Where the hell is today's vid???

Just kidding of course :) Hope everyone DF survives this weekend.
 

Jameson

Member
My OG PS4 annoyingly loud. l hope DF goes into great detail about fan noise of the PS4 PRO, if it's noticeably quieter, I'll probably buy one.
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
...but more importantly, the pixel density of a 4K panel is SO high that native resolution starts to matter a whole lot less. I've tested this so many times with PC games. Running at 1440p on a 4K screen, the results are still incredibly clean and sharp. I generally sit between 5-6ft from my 55" display, for the record.

Upscale blur is a huge issue at lower resolutions but once you cross the 1080p barrier on a 4K display, the results are very good.

This lines up with my personal experience and was actually the thing that got me excited for the Pro.

On a 4K panel 1440p + looks amazing and is enough to could out jaggies (generally) and this makes a huge difference to image quality. Once I saw this I felt much better about the pro. Hitting native 4K isn't that important (It is great of course), the most important thing is smartly increasing resolution high enough to finally clear common aliasing and the Pro seems powerful enough to get that done.

So, while below 1080p missing native res is really obvious I would say that on a 4K panel it's not as important as it might seem due to the massive increase in pixel density and total number of pixels.
 
89HANHg.gif


summary:

-can't tell the difference between checkerboard 4K and native 4K unless you're practically kissing your tv, it's that good

-had PS4 Pro on for ~8 hours straight with Infinite Warfare running, no heating problems and it was super quiet the entire time.
couldn't even hear the fan until putting phone (what he was recording with) behind the system.

-he "can't say" if there will be a Bloodborne patch or not (so there may be a chance?)

Sony employee says good things about Sony product.

There won't be a Bloodborne patch. Give that one up already.
 
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