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Videogame facts that blow your mind (SuperMarioBros. SHOCKING SECRET INSIDE p #70)

L

Lord British

Member
One that's in the manual, but a lot of people miss.

In Donkey Kong Country, it's possible to use the hand slap (down + Y) on certain platforms to reveal hidden banana bunches. The first few levels have a ton of them - wherever there is a dip in the ground, or between two adjacent treetops, or on raised platforms.
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
EmCeeGramr said:
This ain't exactly "mindblowing" but it's something that not a lot of people realize.

Link in Ocarina of Time and Link in Majora's Mask do not use the same model:

qiih6.png
r4WQn.png
Click to expand...
That's pretty good. Now I want to see the OoT remake Link in detail next to them like that.
 
M

Myriadis

Member
On a similar note, it seems that they're using two models for Link - one for Link when he's far away from the camera and one when he's near.
1HflW.jpg

Note the hair and the different form of the hat. I think they do the same in Beyond Good and Evil, having a low-poly version of the character when she's far away from the camera. I clearly notice a change in the model when I play via emulator.
 
D

Deleted member 21120

Unconfirmed Member
Myriadis said:
On a similar note, it seems that they're using two models for Link - one for Link when he's far away from the camera and one when he's near.
1HflW.jpg

Note the hair and the different form of the hat. I think they do the same in Beyond Good and Evil, having a low-poly version of the character when she's far away from the camera. I clearly notice a change in the model when I play via emulator.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_detail
 
J

Jaded Alyx

Member
Myriadis said:
So,it's using an algorithm to create some lower-poly models, caches them and use it whenever the player character is a certain distance away from the camera? That's how I understand it.
It surprises me that there are quite some differences between Low-Poly Link and the "normal" Link, especially when it's made automatically.
Click to expand...

I've noticed this in FIFA many, many times over the years.
 
U

Utako

Banned
Myriadis said:
On a similar note, it seems that they're using two models for Link - one for Link when he's far away from the camera and one when he's near.
1HflW.jpg

Note the hair and the different form of the hat. I think they do the same in Beyond Good and Evil, having a low-poly version of the character when she's far away from the camera. I clearly notice a change in the model when I play via emulator.
Click to expand...
Almost every 3D game in history does this. Mind blown?
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
Myriadis said:
On a similar note, it seems that they're using two models for Link - one for Link when he's far away from the camera and one when he's near.
1HflW.jpg

Note the hair and the different form of the hat. I think they do the same in Beyond Good and Evil, having a low-poly version of the character when she's far away from the camera. I clearly notice a change in the model when I play via emulator.
Click to expand...
LoD algorithms are in almost all 3D games. Very basic stuff.
 
M

Myriadis

Member
Utako said:
Almost every 3D game in history does this. Mind blown?
Click to expand...

I just noticed it in Ocarina of Time. I checked it now in Super Mario 64 and Majoras Mask,it doesn't happen there. I just thought it was quite interesting. If that blows your mind, fine.
 
C

Corky

Nine out of ten orphans can't tell the difference.
Myriadis said:
I just noticed it in Ocarina of Time. I checked it now in Super Mario 64 and Majoras Mask,it doesn't happen there. I just thought it was quite interesting. If that blows your mind, fine.
Click to expand...

As already mentioned, t's called LOD, level of detail :)
 
A

AlStrong

Member
Myriadis said:
So,it's using an algorithm to create some lower-poly models
Click to expand...

Or it's just an artist-created LOD (much more likely considering how few polys are involved here). Automated methods do exist for creating a set number of LODs offline, and devs just load all of them into memory. Not every game developer does it. It's just one way of optimizing rendering performance. When triangles become smaller than a certain group of pixels, it's a bit of a waste.

Algorithms do exist to alter the poly count on the fly, but it's much more of a headache to deal with compared to just authoring a set number of LODs to store in memory from the get-go. Of course, if you're starved for memory (e.g. God of War 3) then the developers may skip on using LOD entirely. Part of what makes it a headache is how the engine would handle the textures being applied to the model and if you destroy/create vertices without much control well... it's going to look like shit. At least with manual creation, there's more control over making it look as good as possible, but of course, that takes time.
 
B

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
Loofy said:
You gotta remember that this is the same link that already went through 8 dungeons and vanquished ganon. By the time he gets to MM hes pretty fricken badass. Probably the strongest link in the entire series...
Click to expand...

Nothing compared to aLttP Link who defeated a Triforce owning Ganon, then went on two other quests which he had to do twice in order to see the true ending and when all that was done he was so bored he dreamt up his own adventure in his head. All this while dying his hair pink.
 
P

Professor Beef

Banned
BGBW said:
Nothing compared to aLttP Link who defeated a Triforce owning Ganon, then went on two other quests which he had to do twice in order to see the true ending and when all that was done he was so bored he dreamt up his own adventure in his head. All this while dying his hair pink.
Click to expand...

Wasn't that part of the "what if" timeline though? ;3
 
M

mclem

Member
Myriadis said:
So,it's using an algorithm to create some lower-poly models, caches them and use it whenever the player character is a certain distance away from the camera? That's how I understand it.
It surprises me that there are quite some differences between Low-Poly Link and the "normal" Link, especially when it's made automatically.
Click to expand...

LoD models don't *have* to be generated automatically. It's quite possible Nintendo hand-crafted it.
 
A

AniHawk

Member
EmCeeGramr said:
This ain't exactly "mindblowing" but it's something that not a lot of people realize.

Link in Ocarina of Time and Link in Majora's Mask do not use the same model:

[]http://i.imgur.com/qiih6.png[/IMG] []http://i.imgur.com/r4WQn.png[/IMG]

Majora's Mask Link is much more detailed, he finally has a strap for his sword, his ears and hair are more detailed, his boots aren't as chunky, and he has detail on his tunic. For a game that's well-known for mostly reusing OoT assets, it's actually surprising that there's so many little differences that a lot of people don't notice since the models look so superficially similar.

It's like the anti-cloudbush.



Bonus: They actually bothered to make tiny differences to the Gorons between OoT and MM as well.
Click to expand...
well i'll be damned
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
I thought the OOT->MM Model think was common knowledge :p even my 11-12 year old self noticed the differences back in the day.
Never noticed the LoD though
 
S

Stylo

Member
LOD....So that's what it's called! I always wondered why in Super Smash Bros. Melee when certain characters (Luigi, Kirby, Peach, and more) get in the magnifying glass, they resembled their N64 models.
 
B

Bluth54

Member
An example of what you can do with LOD models:
Lod_rocketlauncher_wire.jpg


A rocket launcher from Team Fortress 2. Goes from almost 3000 polygons to less then 500 when the LOD model is swapped out when it's far enough away from the player.
 
M

MNC

Member
Stupacabra said:
One that's in the manual, but a lot of people miss.

In Donkey Kong Country, it's possible to use the hand slap (down + Y) on certain platforms to reveal hidden banana bunches. The first few levels have a ton of them - wherever there is a dip in the ground, or between two adjacent treetops, or on raised platforms.
Click to expand...
You can handslap in donkey kong?!
 
M

Myriadis

Member
AlStrong said:
Or it's just an artist-created LOD (much more likely considering how few polys are involved here). Automated methods do exist for creating a set number of LODs offline, and devs just load all of them into memory. Not every game developer does it. It's just one way of optimizing rendering performance. When triangles become smaller than a certain group of pixels, it's a bit of a waste.

Algorithms do exist to alter the poly count on the fly, but it's much more of a headache to deal with compared to just authoring a set number of LODs to store in memory from the get-go. Of course, if you're starved for memory (e.g. God of War 3) then the developers may skip on using LOD entirely. Part of what makes it a headache is how the engine would handle the textures being applied to the model and if you destroy/create vertices without much control well... it's going to look like shit. At least with manual creation, there's more control over making it look as good as possible, but of course, that takes time.
Click to expand...

Great explanation, thanks for this. This is completely new to me - I knew that with textures (low-res textures become high-res) but I didn't know that this basically also applies to models, quite interesting.

Anth0ny said:
Yeah, it definitely happens in SM64.
Click to expand...
I tried it with diefferent camera settings but Mario was always this orginal model. There are surely places where the camera zooms even more out, I should check that. Maybe SSB actually uses a LOD model? Super Mario looked really bad in this game. In OoT, you got the LoD Model already by just running a bit and then turn around.
 
R

Rapstah

Member
Myriadis said:
I tried it with diefferent camera settings but Mario was always this orginal model. There are surely places where the camera zooms even more out, I should check that. Maybe SSB actually uses a LOD model? Super Mario looked really bad in this game. In OoT, you got the LoD Model already by just running a bit and then turn around.
Click to expand...

I don't personally know but I don't think Mario would be LoD-ed with how little the developers can know about what the player will do next. The rest of the world might be though. Try looking at a Goomba maybe? Keep in mind that geometry is so low-polygon that I doubt they would have bothered LoD-ing it, and that trees are 2D.
 
D

DDayton

(more a nerd than a geek)
SM64 uses a reduced poly Mario only while he's moving, if I remember correctly. This trick can be seen easily on the VC verdion -- his head changes into a triangular shape.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Rapstah said:
I don't personally know but I don't think Mario would be LoD-ed with how little the developers can know about what the player will do next. The rest of the world might be though. Try looking at a Goomba maybe? Keep in mind that geometry is so low-polygon that I doubt they would have bothered LoD-ing it, and that trees are 2D.
Click to expand...

That reminds me of how annoyed I was demoing Motostorm in 2006 when it still used 2D brush.
 
M

MNC

Member
I'd assume it's a simple length between model and camera for the different LODs. Also, Mario 64 has LOD, I remember them.
Also, it was the N64, every bit of optimizing would be welcome. It's just proper optimization to LOD models.
 
X

Xun

Member
People have only just found out about LOD in games?

I will admit I never noticed it in OoT, but it's very subtle.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Mario Galaxy had really bad LODs speaking of Nintendo LODs.

There was a very noticeable and distinct quality loss in Mario when you went first person. Which wouldn't be so bad if the LOD didn't turn on the minute you pressed the first person button, so there were a few seconds where you could see low-poly Mario.

They fixed it in Mario Galaxy 2, so I wonder if it was a bug.
 
L

LeleSocho

Banned
Easy_D said:
I thought the OOT->MM Model think was common knowledge :p even my 11-12 year old self noticed the differences back in the day.
Never noticed the LoD though
Click to expand...

The only difference i've always seen is the strap of the sword but never the hair and the ears
I guess now i know why MM Link always appeared me as a strange Link...


also Mario in SM64 has way more polygons than mario in SM64DS even if the ds one is way more similar to the artwork/model
 
I

iidesuyo

Member
I noticed the LoD in the 640x480 GC version of OoT.

And it's extremely obvious in the 1080p port of Daytona USA or in Far Cry (wheels of the Humvees).
 
G

gblues

Banned
I did do a search of the thread and didn't see it posted, so I'll re-post what I found in the Deus Ex: HR thread:

The first boss of Deus Ex: HR is a big dude, with a machine-gun hand, named Barrett. Who was it that published the game again? Oh yeah, Square-Enix.

bJUX2.jpg
 
C

Clipper

Member
BGBW said:
Nothing compared to aLttP Link who defeated a Triforce owning Ganon, then went on two other quests which he had to do twice in order to see the true ending and when all that was done he was so bored he dreamt up his own adventure in his head. All this while dying his hair pink.
Click to expand...
The Oracles and LA link is probably not the same Link as LttP Link. We know for a fact that the timeline goes LttP->Oracles->LA now, but there is still the fact that Zelda introduces herself to Link in the Oracle games as if they have never met. I'm not sure if this has been cleared up already in the Hyrule Hystoria translations, but I still prefer to think of the Oracles games happening at least a generation after LttP with a new Link being summoned.
 
D

DICKS AHOY

Banned
MNC said:
I also like how Link has much more (but very stupid and redundant) jump animations in MM. But, who cartwheel jumps over dangerous gaps!
Click to expand...
Diddy Kong six years beforehand? :V

Also weren't most if not all of the assets from Majora's Mask 'ripped' from OoT spruced up in some way? I don't remember any of the character models looking identical, and I think there were slight touch-ups with enemies too. Doesn't help I no longer own a copy of MM so I can't compare though. :/
 
S

Sagitario

Member
Astrosanity said:
Also weren't most if not all of the assets from Majora's Mask 'ripped' from OoT spruced up in some way? I don't remember any of the character models looking identical, and I think there were slight touch-ups with enemies too. Doesn't help I no longer own a copy of MM so I can't compare though. :/
Click to expand...

Yes, they were upgraded a bit.
 
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