Holy Order Sol
Member
"Art" is just a bullshit label in general, doesn't matter what it applies to. It hardly says anything about the content, it's merely a matter of recognition.
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Rumor: Bravely Second's "Tomahawk" class changed to a cowboy one (+ costume edit)
- Thread starter Eolz
- Start date
"Art" is just a bullshit label in general, doesn't matter what it applies to. It hardly says anything about the content, it's merely a matter of recognition.
Eolz
Member
Yeah, wanted to point that out but hard to place with the discussion moving forward at this rate.
Nintendo had nothing to do with BD's localization, Binari Sonori did it for Square-Enix, and I think I remember someone in a thread last year confirming that S-E asked for the BD changes.
edit: http://www.siliconera.com/2013/12/16/heres-worked-bravely-defaults-english-localization/
LordGorchnik
Member
This along with the "rumored" name change are what I am most interested in. You want to remove the g-string and short skirt be my fucking guest but who the hell thought changing the name to "Cowboy" was a good idea?
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Is the complaint valid? Don't really hear people ranting about "cowboy genociding culture". (Most of that was done by the US military, not cowboys.) The original costume is far more offensive.
The basic argument is equivalent to someone getting pissed off that there's a freelancer class because mercenaries represent rape culture.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
What's wrong with this?
giant tits and fully formed hips in scantily clad outfits...but with the head of an 8 year old
I feel "cultural appropriation" is a very poorly named term.
Generally people using it are trying to argue about "cultural exploitation", in essence taking stereotypes about a culture you're not a part of and don't really care about, and then using them in an offensive way in an effort to gain personal benefit.
The term "cultural appropriation" on the other hand raises imagery of telling white people to not eat at Mexican restaurants or drink tea because those items originated from other cultures.
Generally people using it are trying to argue about "cultural exploitation", in essence taking stereotypes about a culture you're not a part of and don't really care about, and then using them in an offensive way in an effort to gain personal benefit.
The term "cultural appropriation" on the other hand raises imagery of telling white people to not eat at Mexican restaurants or drink tea because those items originated from other cultures.
Shouta
Member
I understand the change away from Tomahawk but if they changed it to Cowboy, that's really awkward. It would have been better to just alter the costume to make it look more respectable in that case.
I guess I should play Bravely Second to see what that's all about. I just picked it up this summer.
I guess I should play Bravely Second to see what that's all about. I just picked it up this summer.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
This is such a terribly naive post that is doing nothing but trying to paint the games as art idea as nothing more then some kind of Trojan horse for some whining.
Here's the reality of the situation. All games are art. All music is art. All paintings are art. Even the boring ass Thomas Kinkade prints you see people selling at mall kiosks. You can dictate what you think is good art and bad art, but you don't just get to say what's art and what isn't based off some bullshit arbitrary personal standard as to what game you personally feel has meaning. There are plenty of "Focus tested shit" in the video game world that could easily be seen as art. Most video game companies have people testing their games to make sure they're balanced and functional.
I really don't see this as racist when it's not painting the culture in a negative light. Same goes for the belly dancer thing.
Edit - Well actually no the outfit itself is pretty badly designed and they should give her pants and a less awkward top but other than that I really don't think there's a big deal with it.
Edit - Well actually no the outfit itself is pretty badly designed and they should give her pants and a less awkward top but other than that I really don't think there's a big deal with it.
Squenix also was the one that produced the CE contents in both western regions. As a matter of fact, the front and sides of the box for the US CE doesn't even have Nintendo's name on it, beyond the 3DS branding.
Jack Videogames
Gold Member
Both situations are extremely dumb so whatever they decide, we lose
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
chaobreaker
Member
They removed this model from the western version. If you summon someone who has it, they replaced it with the Freelancer outfit.
It's literally the only costume in the game that depicts one of the male party memebers in that way and even then it was clearly put in for comedic purposes. None of the normal jobs depict Tiz and Ringabel like this.
What's wrong with this?
I already addressed this:
LordGorchnik
Member
Which is actually quite baffling given that their PM group usually requires their name be on quite a bit of packaging/promotional materials. You're actually making me pull out my copy here to check.
I never played it so I wouldn't know. I just think belly dancer outfits are cool and I like it when media acknowledges Arabs with stuff that isn't durka durka muhammad jihad.
PixyJunket
Member
They show midriffs, which are very offensive to some people.What's wrong with this?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm fine with this.
Battlechili
Banned
Isn't it entirely possible that this is just a bonus costume, and not an actual costume change?
Yeah, this could've been an opportunity to alter the costume to be something more authentic or inspired.
kuroneko0509
Member
It's not like the name 'Tomahawk' is any better, for a class with rifle as primary weapon
I assume it's because they wanted to still have a sexy costume, but did not feel comfortable doing that with the Western release for Native Americans.
No one is likely to complain about a sexy cowboy however (that wouldn't be complaining about sexy outfits in general), so they went with that as they revoke the same time period, color scheme, and ranged class setup.
I actually just looked at mine. The only Nintendo publisher logo is on the back of the box. The actual copy of the game itself has the Nintendo publisher logo on the front, though, and that's true of either version of the game.
Imagine the outrage if the Tomahawk outfit hasn't actually been changed. I think I'll go grab some popcorn then.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I hope this isn't true, that's one of the coolest looking designs.
PdotMichael
Banned
I don't anything in BS is suppsoed to be authentic.
But so long people can't differ between the reality of a 3DS game and the real world is it maybe really better to just delete it/replace it with something differently.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I am more than fine with this, but the "cultural appropriation" language continues to make my skin crawl. It's sad these things end up being artillery barrages from extremists.
I'm guessing the reason they edited the native american costume and not the belly dancer costume is two fold:
1.) To my knowledge, belly dancers actually did dress like that. Obviously they weren't sword fighters while doing so, but it's a combat game. By comparison, I can't think of a time I've ever seen native american women historically dressed like this. There's probably an argument here to be made that the male spellfencer should have had shirts like Vaan, but generally people aren't going to go to bat for that opinion.
2.) The costume is much less of a hot button issue like Native American representation is.
1.) To my knowledge, belly dancers actually did dress like that. Obviously they weren't sword fighters while doing so, but it's a combat game. By comparison, I can't think of a time I've ever seen native american women historically dressed like this. There's probably an argument here to be made that the male spellfencer should have had shirts like Vaan, but generally people aren't going to go to bat for that opinion.
2.) The costume is much less of a hot button issue like Native American representation is.
Several things about the original seem poorly thought out. The "sexy Native" Halloween costume, the class is named "Tomahawk" like they don't know shit else about natives, uses a crossbow INSTEAD OF A TOMAHAWK
Their solution seems equally thoughtless. The comment in the email was a bit much, but replacing the native with a cowboy ain't exactly a good look.
I think someone pointed this out earlier, but this could have been easily solved with a better name, or a more sensible replacement. Like, someone that actually uses a fucking tomahawk.
Their solution seems equally thoughtless. The comment in the email was a bit much, but replacing the native with a cowboy ain't exactly a good look.
I think someone pointed this out earlier, but this could have been easily solved with a better name, or a more sensible replacement. Like, someone that actually uses a fucking tomahawk.
meltingparappa
Member
I feel as if the fanservice complaints are an entirely different argument than the main representation issues.
Bravely Default's classes work similar to dress spheres, in that your character dresses in a unique outfit depending on what swappable class you're currently playing as.
Let me push the shameful "nippon experto" glasses up on my pimply face, but there's over two decades of precedence towards using 'chibi' as a visual shorthand. Think of it as these two are the same character, and one is easier for the 3DS to render and looks good from a distance.
After the first one I knew more changes would come, shame they feel the need to make adjustments so they don't offend or anger people, and they end up just offending and angering people anyway by doing it.
Xenoblade X, Fire Emblem Fates and now Bravely Second all have front page threads on gaf bitching about Nintendo editing them for little to no reason.
Xenoblade X, Fire Emblem Fates and now Bravely Second all have front page threads on gaf bitching about Nintendo editing them for little to no reason.
charlequin
Banned
Well, first, dressing up generically as a race or ethnicity is always bad because it's literally impossible for that to be anything but shallow and gross stereotyping -- like it's not as if being like "I went as an American for Halloween!" by wearing a fatsuit under a US Flag outfit is any good either.
And second, it's particularly bad to do it with a culture that's been heavily oppressed, especially when it's on the level of near-genocide as with indigenous Americans, since there isn't a powerful group to push back against it.
A big part of the issue is that people have this wrong-headed idea about "tribal headdresses and face paint" borne of ignorance. The types of headwear people think of as stereotypically Indian have specific cultural roles that are being exploited and misused when people just treat them as generic costumes. Other elements of clothing associated with American Indians (like turquoise jewelry or various types of leather clothing) are much less sensitive.
The lack of perspective needed to make a serious, unironic comparison between actual genocidal fascists and people who make it slightly less convenient to look at anime ladies in inappropriate outfits is... well, it's certainly impressive, I'll give you that.
Opinionatedfish
Member
I dunno.
So, they alter a sexy costume and add a sexy hat, presumably. Eh. Okay. It's a Dayrl Dixon class apparently.
If this is in the Spanish localization, it makes some sense as a "Gaucho" style would be more known than an incorrect "native" style. Or vaquero. Any number of terms. If the male version of this has a poncho or sombrero, that seals it. Also, lol at people thinking the "cowboy" is a distinctly North American invention or that they were responsible for the Trail of Tears relocation death march. Ahem, Andrew Jackson.
So, they alter a sexy costume and add a sexy hat, presumably. Eh. Okay. It's a Dayrl Dixon class apparently.
If this is in the Spanish localization, it makes some sense as a "Gaucho" style would be more known than an incorrect "native" style. Or vaquero. Any number of terms. If the male version of this has a poncho or sombrero, that seals it. Also, lol at people thinking the "cowboy" is a distinctly North American invention or that they were responsible for the Trail of Tears relocation death march. Ahem, Andrew Jackson.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Shantae in particular is kind of tricky for me, because the costume as you see it in the original artwork is basically fine, and then you jump ahead to the modern games and its like "oh...now every female character has breasts like cantaloupes that are exposed with a tight bra that gives them a boob shelf and they all lean into the camera....er"
Battlechili
Banned
Looking at the outfits from a purely aesthetics perspective, I like the original outfit a lot more. Cowboys are boring imo.
Oh I see. Well that's a pretty lame change to make then. Arguably an offensive change to make in itself. Thanks for explaining that to me though. I have yet to play Bravely Default. My 3DS library is really small at the moment.
Let me push the shameful "nippon experto" glasses up on my pimply face, but there's over two decades of precedence towards using 'chibi' as a visual shorthand. Think of it as these two are the same character, and one is easier for the 3DS to render and looks good from a distance.
God that's a good design.
Let me push the shameful "nippon experto" glasses up on my pimply face, but there's over two decades of precedence towards using 'chibi' as a visual shorthand. Think of it as these two are the same character, and one is easier for the 3DS to render and looks good from a distance.
This is part of why Square Enix is one of the most successful Japanese publishers in the West though.
Throughout their history they've tried to make culturally sensitive changes to their games during localization without losing the essence of the product.
It's ranged from small things like renaming Final Fantasy 6's Tina into Terra to maintain the sense of mystique in her name to outfit edits to their most extreme case of changing Nier's protagonist (which, perhaps surprisingly, old/father Nier was received very well).
There was probably a point where they had went overboard with things like changing Star Ocean 4 character portraits (they didn't fit the Western audience either way, and they didn't address the real cultural issue with the game) or the setup for The Last Remnant (ditto), but they went back to their traditional format later.
kuroneko0509
Member
You can't go wrong with most of Akihiko Yoshida's design
PixyJunket
Member
I kind of wish we had gotten a more direct sequel to that sometimes. I realize that it's better to have Bravely Default separate itself into its own thing but I REALLY like the more classic approach to story on 4HoL (less cutscenes, etc.) and the soundtrack constantly mixing modern instrumentation with chiptune was the most.4 Heroes of Light combined the Native American and Cowboy into one
sensui-tomo
Member
As long as the class is kept its fine, editing is fine as long as the class isnt cut. Then i'd be pissed. Fire Emblem Fates threads are looking like they're going to be golden with the way these localization have turned out. Might make me forget about the cidney (ff15) threads.
Uh... they never changed anything with nier, there are 2 nier games, GESTALT and REPLICANT. Japan got both, we just got the father one (which i dont see a brother ever going to the lengths that a father would go) If you want to talk about changes with localizations and go with something go to DRAKENGARD... some subtle changes were made... like pedo priest .
chaobreaker
Member
Oh yeah. Wayforward does that a lot with their female characters.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Why is it that the "it's art" defense comes up whenever it's a Japanese game creator making changes to their game to make it more acceptable to the West because it's either -sexist
and/or
racist?
In this case both. As if you would go up to the creator in person and say "Don't change that it's perfect art and no artist ever makes any change ever." Holy shit I hate this "it's art" argument. And calling the group that opposes
-racism
-sexism
extremists, holy shit!
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